I don't think your grasping/addressing one of the fundamental problems/concerns here.

Impartiality, accountability and credibility are paramount in a growing number of peoples minds here.

If there is to be a separate forum, eventually.....people will expect a level playing field. One that is open, transparent and equitable to all.

You make reference 2) to how in your opinion Now your getting closer to the crux of the matter, to the perceptions of people as to what is a major problem now, as long as the status quo is maintained.

It's all well and good papering over the cracks 'again' and watching the ensuing identical problems resurface again.

It's all very well offering solutions and inviting open and honest debate in the hope YOU'VE MAGICED UP A SOLUTION BEFORE NEALS RETURN.

IMO.....you are part of the problem and therefore part of the solution.

DO NOT THINK I DISCOUNT MYSELF EITHER

If there is no possibility of a so called impartial moderator for a separate ATO forum, then I should imagine the GW would settle for something similar to what we have at present.

We are all 'guilty by association' to one extent or another.

Shouldn't be a problem if the respective individuals stick to their own patch.

I thank the Lord that Neal has the final say.

Is that what you meant by ugly?

Pffffft....

Nothing ugly or even new here. Just the same old same old by the same old same old. Only difference here is that it is ,for the moment, officially sanctioned.

JCC

To John Channing and AVG;


John, in terms of 'no one complaining'; Neal will confirm that several people throughout the past have gone directly to him to discuss the posting style of certain individuals, and his instructions to you guys as far as moderating style and abilities. Him and I have spoken about it several times. Up until now, no action was really taken however, to really change anything. That's not a complaint actually, just an honest look at history. And I do understand what Neal was attempting to create.

You said something to me in your PM last night, that I appreciate very much and touches my heart. I return the sentiment to you.



AVG, you will recall the night I sat and watched a particular member repeatedly and openly attack you, and purposely violate every rule of decent behavior possible. Neal eventually dealt with it, but during that event, for an entire evening of publically viewed nightmare, you didn't even have the ability to stop what was happening.



Without speaking to any other member here, without pointing fingers at other members, etc etc, here are some simple facts I think are extremely relevent and important;


1. I have been both an administrator and a moderator of several large and well known gaming sites for almost a decade now. I have seen all of this from both sides. In every case, strong moderation and application of fair rules is the only way to not have a public forum be a wild west free for all. And having a staff that tightly controls the public appearance of a website, does not mean it becomes a 'no fun, censorship' type place. It simply means that to an outsider, it appears that the staff is shown respect by it's members, the members control themselves and show respect to each other, and no visitors and potential members have to see any nonsense like witnessed in this thread, because it doesn't exist.

2. The staff here, is frequently challenged and disrespected, publically and openly. The title of moderator has almost been rendered meaningless. That's unacceptable. For one, Neal should not create such a situation where the people he depends on to keep the peace, are powerless and disrespected. It's not fair to you guys to be put in that situation, it hurts the website, and it creates this lawless atmosphere. It is a direct result of people being allowed to post in improper ways, without repercussion.

3. Forum members here are not required to be respectful of one another. If they want to publically crap on someone, it's allowed to stand. One small bit of bad behavior, encourages others to follow suit, and without strong moderation, it escalates out of control.

4. I cannot believe the concept of "impartial moderator" needs to be discussed, or that the very staff here is openly admitting it's moderators may not be impartial. Impartiality does not come into play, if the forum rules are simply enforced. If someone makes an improper post, it simply gets deleted by a moderator, because that's the rule, not because of the moderator being on someone's side or not.


I invite you guys, or anyone else who cares, to spend a few minutes looking around a forum I currently moderate. We have a very simple concept; members respect each other, flaming and disruptive behavior is simply not allowed. Anyone who doesn't want to contribute productively to the community is quickly dealt with. If some bull**** breaks out, it's not left there in the public eye to sour the public perception of the site; it's quickly removed by moderators, and the offenders PM'd why.

Yes, we have had to weed out and ban a few people. But the end result is brilliant. We have a growing community of gamers dedicated to a specifc game/studio, who all contribute positively, and who enjoy being there because they know it's a "flame free" zone. Our own Elanaiba is even a member there.

The staff is never disrespected, the website is never disrespected, all because any bull**** is quickly cleaned up and the offender dealt with. Sure, the offenders aren't happy, but the rest of the majority is, because they know they can go there and just enjoy the game stuff they want to, and not have to worry about any of the sort of BS that goes on here. What you will see in there, is a tight friendly group all contributing positively to a common cause, and once you achieve that, they actually begion to police themselves, because the existing members will not tolerate anyone ruining the atmosphere.

You will never, ever see "Oh shut up you stupid moron" left in public to spoil the place.

The forum is in here... www.BlackfootStudios.com


Summarizing;

Rules of good posting ettiquette are not enforced here. Thus members openly attack each other, and even attack the staff here. It creates a horribly negative atmosphere.

The moderators have to be given the power to put an instant stop to nonsense, and they must use it.

We have a long history here of several groups who will not only flame each other, but will openly travel in packs like a street gang and all join in for the attacks and to keep the **** going. This has to be stopped. The first post that is clearly a violation, has to be removed, and the offender PM'd a warning. Repeated warnings mean a temporary posting ban.

This includes the sneaky posts that, while not openly offensive, are clearly designed to antagonize someone and illicit a response that will start trouble. The staff has to clearly recognize when something posted in a thread is not contributing to the discussion, but only going to derail it, and relocate it or remove it. That's the entire purpose of forum moderation.

There are many here, who will just barely skirt the rules, say just enough to not 'be against the rules', but are clearly looking to 'oneup' someone. That only causes problems. The cure is to not allow that to remain in the public eye to grow. The moderators here have to recognize what's really occurring, remove the post, and tell the offenders to take it to PM's if they need to continue their issue.




Here's the most important part:

You are never going to remove the modders jealously and competition that exists here.

BUT.... if you control what is publically posted, if you stop one team from publically antagonizing and trying to 'oneup' the other, you will stop all this nonsense that you created this thread to discuss.



I know you can do it. You just need to be given the right tools, and the courage and wisdom to use them.

Best of luck. You know how to reach me.


Thanks again John. :yep:

This actually made me laugh out loud.

From the GWX side of the court…

Quote:

"Moderators like Channing there, and AVG, need to look at the action as much as you do the reaction. The reaction occurs because you don't handle the actions... you (The moderators.) want to blame others for things getting out of hand? ok... but the phrase passing the buck comes to mind. You lot are involved in this too."

(I just love it when people refer to me by my last name. Makes me all tingly inside.)

Quote:

"Where were the moderators then when they (Ducimus and other fleet enthusiasts) started to get heavy with him? Its the most recent and best example of poor and one sided moderation."

Quote:

"Like I've already said, moderators need to be more on the ball, stamp out the baiting and name calling before it gets out of control. "

Quote:

"but I believe there is reasonable potential for a certain element of doubt when you consider that one of your good selves is a moderator on a certain forum that is seriously anti U-boat."

And from the SH4 side of the court…

Quote:

"This has been about one group breaking every single forum ettiquette rule we could write, and being allowed to get away with it."

Quote:

"Better moderation."

Quote:

"The problem here is, certain individuals have been given carte blanche to act anyway they please. That needs to change."

I seem to remember an old adage about how, if both sides of a disagreement are mad at you, then you are probably getting it right.

JCC

Jim, it has been really swell talking with you and enjoying Subsim. Thank the Lord that Neal not only has the final say, but I can thank the Lord there are other things to do in life other then moderate SS. Think what you like, see the forest for the trees, enjoy your life. As you so aptly point out that I'm part of the problem so to are you and the rest of the gang. I see you did not discount yourself on that matter. Magic up what you like. We are not curing cancer here. We are playing a submarine game. I only was looking for a solution, you continue to look for problems. You are glad Neal has the final say, of course he does and has asked for ideas in this thread. What have you provided other then more mud with others adding to it? Not much. It is plain to see you feel I'm the thorn in the side. Go ahead, rest it all my shoulders. Not a problem. What does it really matter in the end? Absolutely nothing. The best part about guilt by association is you can find other associates. That is what I plan on doing. There Jim, one of your problems solved. Enjoy.

Ducimus doesn't have a forum. The SH4 Modders' Forum, http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php is a forum owned by swdw for SH4 modders, primarily Fleet Boat modders, although lurker_hlb3 also maintains the Operation Monsun series for U-Boats out of the same forum.

It is a public forum. Some Subsim members post the link as part of their signature with every post they make. We invite every Subsim member to drop by for a visit and talk to the vast array of talented modders who congregate there. By the way, no modders have left Subsim and none have any plans to.

Ducimus is a late-comer to that forum, having come to work with the RFB team to make both mods better. As abrasive as Ducimus is, somewhere in that crusty and provocative personna is one who really does practice what he preaches. Instead of fighting for dominance in Fleet Boat modding, he is working with the RFB Team to make both mods and SH4 the best it can be.

It was the RFB Team who convinced Ducimus to produce the patch that in effect turns TMO off so you can play the U-Boat with TMO still installed. It was Ducimus who did some of the great RFB interior work. That is the coopetition (Darrell Waltrip word there:up:) that has made the SH4 modding community the great place it is. It is the ingredient that has been missing so far from the SH3 modders' world, which has unfortunately been a theater of oneupsmanship. Maybe that will change, but there are plenty of examples, the attempted supression of OLC GUI, the reverse engineering of NYGM to take the ship damage model without asking the NYGM modding crew. Sorry, but I'm on record as saying you should support your conclusions with facts and that cuts both ways.

Nobody at Kickinbak advocates desertion of Subsim at all. I'd consider it a support forum, providing the predominately Fleet Boat modding discussion group that Subsim has chosen not to provide and reducing friction here. Certainly pressure has been put on certain people not to be as incendiary here.

Visit http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php. Read the posts. See what goes on there. Decide for yourself if it is Ducimus' secret conspiracy, or whether he is just a member. You will see some posts by some members who have no taste for U-Boats whatever, and some comments that the proper place for a U-Boat is on the bottom of the ocean in many pieces. I guess that's somewhat predictable. But you'll also see enthusiasm for U-Boats and the some of the best SH4 U-Boat work performed so far in Operation Monsun. You might see my posts saying that GWX is nothing to worry about, modders at Kickinbak should make the best mods and let people sort it out for themselves. I encourage them not to quit because of perceived animosity, but to continue producing great stuff. That's no attack on GWX because they too benefit by having to do their best instead of resting on their laurels after every other mod quits and leave the field to GWX alone. The evidence there will show who is fabricating by innuendo and where the truth lies.

@Jimbuna: Finding an impartial moderator might be impossible???? How about reallydeadpoet? How about Hunter? What's wrong with John Channing? In any event, what's wrong with the moderator of the U-Boat group being partial to U-Boats and the moderator of the Fleet Boats being partial to Fleet Boats? I would expect to be in a U-Boat culture and act accordingly in their group, or what's an identity for? In that context it would be a GOOD thing. Much of the conflict here is just people with an exclusive enthusiasm. They lose their cool in a discussion and start swapping insults. That shouldn't happen too much in a more monolithic group.

I personally like fleet boats a bit better, but have had a blast in U-Boats also. I'd expect to spend time in both forums, respecting the culture of each, being glad that Neal saw fit to reconfigure his domain to reflect the most effective way to promote harmony.

Actually, both of my email addresses I use have been banned from kickinbak. This' the open and helpfull SHIV community you all are talking of? :roll:

:nope: And this is really the way you folks think it should be...?

Now this does not need to happen, and it's not drama, but a dam shame is this guy goes, period. AVG needs no defending, but I have seen enough. As he has mentioned on more than one occasion in this thread, it a process here that is being worked through, he has the jewels to say that it is a struggle to remain impartial here ( plus offer solutions ) and it is thrown back at him like this, I can second that it is a struggle. We are members to, there are games we like and some not as much, same goes for members, but we do our best when it comes time to Moderate, to be respectful and decent when participating, both as a member and a moderator, is it an exact science, double no, but we sure as heck try to keep things on the rails here. Neal created this thread and is doing his part, Moderators are trying to do the same. Members need to step up here and be part of the solution.

AVG is right, we are not curing cancer here, it's a game. And if he goes, folks in this thread need to take a long look in the mirror and perhaps do the same.


RDP

The way I see it there is one problem. The problem is that party X cannot get along with party Y and vice versa. Any other perceived problem, whether it be 'jumping the fence', veiled insults, moderation, signatures or what have you, are simply symptoms of this problem. It seems to me that everyone wants to talk about the symptoms, and no one wants to discuss the problem. So, we're complaining about the smoke in the room while the house burns down.

Everybody wants to be right here. Everybody wants what they want, but no one is getting anything that they want by going about things in the manner that they are currently going about it. Through the past many pages we have learned one thing for certain: Hostility is not getting anyone anywhere. It is not what you say, but how it is said. The other side will be far more sympathetic with a kind phrase. They'll get what they want. You'll get what you want, but constantly rehashing the fact that you think that you were wronged is not making that wrong right. I'll also bet that it's not making you feel any better either.

Sure, you're all mad. Everyone knows that you're mad. What we need is someone to be the bigger person, put down the stick and reach out their hand. You don't have to love the other person. You just have to be heroic enough to get along. So, say something constructive. You may find that the other party's wants are more conducive to your's than you may have thought.

Can you elaborate so we can all benefit? Love your signature. Who says SH3 is yesterday's sim? That's awesome!

@Dowly, I don't know the circumstances from your banning from Kickinback. I am no more in charge there than here. Maybe they can explain their reasoning. In any event, there are people banned from Subsim as well and we don't use that as ammunition to discredit Subsim. Owners of web sites have the same perogative as talk show hosts to admit and deny who they will without needing to justify their decision. It's one of those bad situations where the cure would be more unjust than the problem.

@AVG I know you're discouraged, but don't lose heart here. That's Ducimus and KL's exclusive realm.:rotfl:And they're both terminally addicted also, so we will continue hear from them no matter how many times they "resign." Has anyone ever reflected how alike those two personalities are, in spite of their differering organizational styles with KL being a team builder and Ducimus the lone wolf?:hmm: It's a reenactment of the Star Trek episode where the two brothers are condemned to fight forever to keep the universe from ripping apart.:rotfl:Two's company, three's a crowd. And they can handle the job right well.

I nominate AVG as a moderator of the fleet boat modding forum, if it materializes.

Here's my step in the right direction:

A separate ATO forum - Moderated by either Hitman or Takeda Shingen.

Meaning no disrespect to any other moderator here but IMHO, the two gentleman above act decisively, swiftly and always act impartially. If availablity/coverage/timezones mean that there are times when the section maybe unmodderated then another solution may need to be found.

Why does that not surprise me? AVG is a moderator and active participant on the kickinback forum, he also has a vested interest & personal content in the mods being developed in that forum, so he would be a nice choice to have in a PTO camp. Again, I return to the requirement of moderators being impartrial with no chance of their motives being called into question.

Yes, I am aware of that you cant do anything about it. And I am in no way trying to discredit kickingbak. But what I find funny is that I see you guys praising the openness of SHIV community, yet I have been banned from a SHIV modding forum without me ever even being there. :p And BOTH my emails! Someone's taken his/her time to find the other email addy as I havent used that one in ages. ;)

But no worries, I dont have any rush to register there atm. ;)

RR's post is spot on.

And this...


I believe is really the heart of the matter.

This has never, imo, been about who like u-boats vs who likes PTO. It has been about the SH4 modding community not wanting what is described above, to move from SH3 to SH4.

And the closer that came, the more hostile the environment in SH4 became.

I'm not sure I understand the need to seperate communities, when it's the behaviors, not the geographies, that is the problem.