You know I've been reading this thread and it is getting stupid.

There isn't that much different for either side. We all have the same thing in common.
To start of I am a fleet boat man, have been since I was a kid, when I read a book about submarines by Edward Beach.

We can be ATO or PTO, U-boat or Fleet boat, but there is one thing that we all are and that is what we need to concentrate on. We are people who love Sub Sims. We wouldn't be here if we weren't.

We as a community should have 1 goal to accomplish, that is to make this game the best game possible. I am 54 years old and I wish I could mod like you modders can, but I can't and I realize that.

But you modders have a responsibility to the community as a whole to make the game more realistic in any way possible. Now the modding world is evolving now, with the tools being developed now days, from S3D, menumaker, JXte, JSMGE. Tools like these are making modding easier and better. If there are tools out there being hoarded by someone that would benefit the modding community, that person, or people have a responsibility to bring it forth so the whole modding community can make the game better. You modders also have the responsibility to teach the future modders how to mod, with tutorials, such as been done by Mush Martin, Skwasjer, and Ducimus.

We as non-modders have a responisibility also, and I admit I do not, to read the readmes that come with the mods we use. If we have a problem we should not berate a mod because it does weird things. We should find out why it is happening. Is it a conflict with another mod, if so figure out how to fix it or seek some advice. If there is a true problem, we need to let the modder know in a constructive not
destructive way.

We as a community need to make this game so good, that when Ubi comes out with SH5 that there will be more people, other than us, buying the game. To do this the best was is exposure like "YouTube." If we can accomplish this then the future will look brighter for future versions of Silent Hunter.

But we need to quit this bickering amongst ourselves, and quit believing that one side is better then the other, because you aren't. This is a community of Sub Sim lovers. Lets act like it and make this the best game out there.

Edit: One last thing to say. Remember how LeoVampire (RIP) was. He was generous, helpful, ready to help anyone in need, taking that extra step if needed. Think of all the people he helped from the lowlest bilge rat to a moderator every once in a while. We need to start acting more like him instead of this petty bickering that is going on.

I just became aware of this thread a day or so ago.

It's about time that someone has finally called attention to the aggressive and bullying tactics used by GWX to promote GWX and supress anything or anyone perceived as not being aligned with GWX's interests. Now, perhaps it is wrong for me to make such a sweeping comment about the behavior of the GWX Team when maybe this behavior is most clearly ascribed to a single individual. However, that individual, Kpt. Lehmann, has described himself as the official leader and spokesperson of this group.

Since my name has been dragged into this, let's have an honest review of what really happened, shall we:

(1) I was someone with a lot of sub games who happened to be familiar with a number of game engines beyond simply SH3. This includes: AOD, SH1, SH2, SC, and DW. Additionally, I have 30 years in systems management/development and love to discuss games - their interfaces, game play, mechanics, etc... Finally, I've beta tested well known wargames and am a part owner of a strategy game development studio.

(2) I made numerous posts regarding SH3/GWX no different in style than my posts regarding SC, DW, SH2/PA, ... They were all extremely polite and respectful of the hard work and talent which is manifest by GWX. Reading them, any objective person, would be left with no doubt that I was an enthusiastic player and fan of GWX 1.03 and 2.00. Of course, I clearly felt uninhibited to discuss SH3's and GWX's game play and behavior both viewed in isolation and viewed against other games and the historical record. This is afterall www.subsim.com and the charter states that a free discussion of subs and sub games is the reason for the site's existence.

(3) Furthermore, KL knew me from direct interaction via PM. He knew that I harbored no malice to GWX and greatly appreciated their work. In December 2007, he even turned down an offer of free copies of promotional copies of games developed/published by my company (part owner), AGE Studio, in appreciation to GWX team members residing in the USA (due to controlling postage expenses).

(4) Despite all of this, I had the audacity to discuss the mechanisms of how radar detection behaved in 1943 game play. How it impacted the difficulty level for the player. Something I observed about that actually provided the player with even greater resolution on the enemy than prior to 1943 ... which some GWX members thought might be regarded as "an exploit" or a weakness in SH3's game engine. It was for this that KL on behalf of the GWX Team decided that I needed to be rudely put in my place and taught a lesson in the use of the power he wielded as a high profile and visible spokeperson of one of the foremost mods and successful sub sim mods of all time. Yes, that's right. Even an appreciative fan and supporter of GWX could not be allowed to discuss the workings of the game in a free and open manner in a general discuss forum.

(5) From his platform KL rudely characterized me as someone bent on doing harm to GWX which any objective reader could clearly see otherwise and which he personally had sufficient knowledge via PMs to know otherwise. My politeness and appreciation of GWX was simply dismissed as chocolate coated "poo". I was to be made an example of since I dared to do more than simply praise, I dared to discuss and analyze.

(6) Lastly, the thread was quickly locked. I do not know why, but I certainly made it appear that GWX/KL was in control of the SH3 Forums and any discussions which would take place there. I had been taught my lesson. I no longer felt enthusiastic about discussing SH3 or GWX with other members. I had been made an example and now knew better.

For anyone who wants to review the indicident for themselves, here it is:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=133192

---

I am posting here to set the record straight, since I think the www.subsim.com mods sincerely want to make the site a venue where all polite and respectful members can participate and share their love of subs, history, and sub simulations/games. I wish to acknowledge and support that effort.

I still continue to play GWX 2.00. It is a superb piece of work and those who have produced it are extremely talented. This includes KL who I have taken exception to his abuse of my good nature. I hope that we might be able to get past incident and enter into a new period where GWX does not need to be protected and defended from heretics which are bent on doing it harm. Such is not at all possible or plausible. GWX lives because of the fantastic piece of work it is and not due to active and aggressive defense of it in public forums.

If anything given the stature, size, and weight of the GWX Team, it would be well for it to learn to tread lightly. It's members are not simply ordinary forum members. Their participation on GWX have accorded them a special position in the Subsim universe. As such, like moderators, they should be more deferential, polite, and friendly in their posts than the average forum member, since they implicitly hold a higher status and regard than most. No harm will come to the mod or the team, and at the same time, the forums will once again open up for free discussion of the SH3/4 and all mods. GWX will continue to be one of the most popularly used and respected mods by many players of the game. Active defense and promotion will have proven totally unnecessary and perhaps even counter-productive.

@Kpt.Lehmann

Goodie, cant wait to hear what you guys have in plans! :up:

@AVG

No, havent finished the skin yet. Had to make edit one of my old skins for use with the II/JG53 and kinda forgot the other one. :oops: Tho, I have it all saved so I can continue it whenever I feel like it. ;)

MarkShot... At risk of backing up your theories about bullies and aggressive tactics, you have drawn the line in the sand here, and sadly... I have no choice but to cross it because you have only given one side of the story.

You present that thread as though its the sole occurance, but you know full well there were other threads and other series' of questions that you posed us. Questions, that we did our level best to answer for you, and to justify the reasons...

yet you came back each time with the same thing which you posted below;

I was someone with a lot of sub games who happened to be familiar with a number of game engines beyond simply SH3. This includes: AOD, SH1, SH2, SC, and DW. Additionally, I have 30 years in systems management/development and love to discuss games - their interfaces, game play, mechanics, etc... Finally, I've beta tested well known wargames and am a part owner of a strategy game development studio.

Nobody is trying to retract from your skills or your accomplishment. What was irritating the Team was the fact that you were pulling GWX apart highlighting this that and the next, but failing to treat other games in the same way. As has been said many times before there are limits to what can be done within the context of the SH3 engine. SH4 should present far greater opportunity but to quote a fellow Grey Wolf "SH3 doesn't quite give you enough lace to tie your shoes"

The Grey Wolves did their best and for nothing, and your critiques were wearing us down. Simple as that. While critiques are respected, all is asked that you try SH3 without GWX and see what its like.

Can we take criticism? Yes. Do we like it? Not Really.

The GWX Team is based on the freeware principle, what was made for SH3 was done free, and given free, and shared with the community. We are not, a professional software company like you have or work in... we are a bunch of fans doing what we can for the benefit of submarine sims. We are also only human.

The example you present, is about Radar. Try SH3 without GWX and Radar there is almost laughable. You were questioning and you were told it was the best could be done within the limits of the game engine. Everybody on GWX did their best, and bottom line is.

We are human, we have feelings too. And when someone continually criticises, and criticises then something has to give. We are under no obligation to take criticisms, but don't let it be said we don't listen to the community because we do our best to take aboard their suggestions.

We were and are grateful that you enjoy GWX as much as you do or did... but you can only take so much, and as polite as you were... you wore us down man! Your posts here and there on aspects of GWX that you were unhappy with, wore us down. Simple as.

Now you are here playing the victim? Its not fair... you don't have a right to play the victim, because right on up till that rader thread, we were polite with you too. As I say, sometimes you can only stand so much. I'm sorry its come to this, truly I am. But multiple critiques and probing questions by you got too much in the end, especially as you seemingly had no idea of what SH3 was before GWX.

Maybe you weren't handled in the best way, Im not going to say one way or another here on that, but, if you want a fresh start, Then that is fine. Because as a team we can do the same too.

Sorry, I've analyzed all games which I have played seriously. Go look up my posts on SH2/PA and Kriegstanz. However, the SH2/PA Team unlike GWX were eager to participate in discussion of SH2/PA limitations, behavior, mechanics, and ways to work around various issues. In fact, I was even able to come up with a few solutions due to their openess to discuss things.

Why cannot things like escort behavior, visibility, game play be discussed without it being perceived as an attack on the GWX Team?

Why must discussion of game play, tactics, flaws in the game engine, ... be taken as attacks?

Why is it that your team can only take bows, but cannot permit the freedom for players to simplyd discuss how the games works and how they play it?

Yes, I got that from KL and the rest of you that were tolerating my persistent analysis and discussion of the game. As far as I know, the forums are there for just such discussion by those who play these games.

The fact that I discuss the angles from which your sub is visible my the AI (and that it perhaps does not make logical sense) or differential LOS which is well understood concept in modeled in many ground combat games does not mean that GWX is being attacked and must be defended.

You have once again highlighted the paranoi and defensive attitude that permeates your team and prevents any serious discussion of SH3 or GWX in the forums under pain bullying. Someone needs to explain to you folks the basic difference between a mature conversation of software behavior and features and personal attacks on one's character and person. There is, in fact, a difference.

I've never said that you folks have done anything but a superb job. However, that doesn't stop me from discussing how the game functions.

I've always said that GWX is far superior to stock SH3. That's why I hardly even bothered with the stock game.

Sadly, if I report that a DC blows the tail of the escort that drops its or that they shoot each other in a cross fire. Then, you folks take such observations as personal attacks.

No wonder why we have problems!? Well, there is nothing further I can do about it. You have been praise in every post I write and yet, it will never be sufficient for your folks unless I refrain from discussing any of the game's behavior and simply leave at the "GWX Team are gods and geniouses". Sorry, Penelope, you and the rest of your cohorts need to step back and get some perspective. You've been living so long in a world that you have custom created that you no longer are able to function in the larger social scene of a general purpose sub and game discussion site.

;) This is a silent hunter 4 forum its all about the "good bad and ugly" of the mechanics of the game ...................

I enjoy and play both SH3 and SH4 and enjoy greatly the modders "big and small" and what you all have achieved and made these games into what they are today.

So lets keep this about SH4 and what you all can do to make it better for us the gammer who would like to but cant mod a tea spoon....;)

If you want to compare who has the biggest Torpedo PM each other and leave your ego's at the door and get on with making this game better ..................:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

I want to be able to discuss SH4. The reason that the Subsim mods have jumped on this --- yes, the Subsim mods --- is because discussion of SH3 is no longer possible in the SH3 forum. With the arrival GWX and the "no discussion policy", it soon become hard and unwelcome to discuss SH4 freely here.

That is why the mods have raised this to keep this forum open and so that all modders can continue to participate in the growth of SH4 (not just one group).

Now that's what I was hoping to hear :up:

We have a right to answer posts that are made against us or to us... your first post was such a post, hence, here I am.

If I highligted the paranoid or defensive attitude, it was only because you challenged in your first post somebody has to come and represent the team and answer such accusations. The fact of the matter is, you want to talk about software behaviour, you should have took it up with the SH3 Developers, not the GWX team. We didn't make the game, GWX just modified it. You were persisting in raising matters to us of which we had little to no say. GWX did everything it could within the limits of the SH3 engine. As I said above SH4 offers a lot more flexability.

But again I reinforce how the game functions is something the team has little control over. Its like the loading, it takes a while to load, there is no way to make it load any quicker without sacrificing content. SH3 is very much a case of sometimes having to rob Peter to pay Paul.

Thankyou but that there is complete rubbish. When that problem was found the team listened, and Privateer made a fix for that which went into 2.1, but was released early for 2.0 users in a 2.1 sneak peek thread. Nobody was made to wait longer than they had to for that. Once the fix was done, it was released.

Nobody was personally attacked for it. In fact, most of us were grateful it was found out, because we didn't find it.

You have no clue of the sacrfices and things we have had to give up some of the team have sacrificed a hell of a lot more than others have. An arrogant thing you have said there. GWX is something we do as a hobby or for fun in our spare time. We are not under any obligations to do anything for anybody.

And for the record, I hate it when people call this team "Gods" we are no such things at all. Genius? Yes. Certainly there are a lot of very intelligent people here and to borrow Jimbuna's quote "no one of us is as clever as all of us"

If you want to criticise GWX then do so, however, what you apparantly are still failing to get is that we are not here to make this custom built for you or anybody else. What we do is for our Team and we share it with Subsim as its something that all of us on this team ALL OF US believe in. That being an historical recreation of the U-Boat war, the highs, the lows, the tragedy.

If you dont like GWX or aspects of it and you keep criticising, probing for answers, eventually somebody is going to tell you, if its as bad as that, don't play it.

I have no idea even now what it was you expected of us MS, to change things in the package just cause you say so, and you have all these credentials... it simply doesn't work like that. I don't care if people can't stand it, if somebody comes and says "GWX sucks, couldn't get to grips with it, I uninstalled it" Im not going to come and flame that person. Rather than nag and nag to get their own way, they did something about it.

We can courtsey now too as well as bow. New trick I have been teaching them. :up:

On a serious note, when people start posting ways to exploit the game it ruins it for everybody else who plays it, who doesn't want to know. True they have a choice of using it or not... but in a pinch you may just break your own rules.

Nobody stopped you talking about how you play the game or discussing how it works, its just decent courtesy to not post these exploits/cheats publically. The fact it was Kpt. Lehmann that brought it to your attention probably annoys you a lot. Were it some non-GWX team member you probably wouldn't feel as burned or attacked as you do?

I don't know, in any case I know that the team is not universally loved and adored and that is fine, I must reiterate that I didn't come here to fight with you, just to answer some of the claims and extend an olive branch.

If you want to carry on the grudge and maintain your position (as per your signature "SH3/???") then feel free. But please don't think you can drag our names through the mud as you did a few posts up and go without answer.

Yes! I can't wait! And somebody give Markshot a tea cozy :rotfl:

Penelope:... to Markshot

Thanks Penelope. I appreciate the effort to clear the air on this story and close the book on it.

To put in my two cents here.

Let me be clear from the beginning about my starting postition.
The GWX Team is made up of some fine people and some huge
talents several of whom im indebted to. Several of Whom I consider
Personal friends and One of whom I consider the marquis example
of what it means to be a good citizen here at subsim.(BBW)
I find the body of the GWX work Ingenious in its resourcefulness
Meticulous in its attention to detail, Totally Sincere in its commitment
to Quality, Thorough throughout in its scope, Breathtakingly Beautiful
in its result, And with a total and completely admirable, further to that
completely uprecendented commitment to user support, producing what
I consider to be the finest example of modding in the history of the sport.
It is indeed a Masterpiece that has deservingly supplanted the original
game as the standard to be met by The games sequel.
Quite Deservingly!

At Peril of losing a few friends though I am compelled to disagree sadly
about the treatment being rubbish Penny.

Quite frankly the exact same treatment by the exact same leadership
over the exact same issue has happened to me and for all intents and
purposes driven me off of the shIII forums as I consider the atmosphere
created by it on the forums socially abhorrent.

For an example of what I mean see the general tension emanating
from this thread before I chimed in.

It has almost driven me completely from subsim.

IMHO the players forums and modders forums are what should actually
be being enforced with benefit to all.

the difference to me between the two is if its in the manual its a player
issue if its not its a modder issue. the benefits for all with the moderators
enforcing posting discipline in both directions helps all.

in the first place the GWX team more so than any other body should
understand the constant redundencies of RTFM this I am certain is true.
the benefit of enforcing players to not post player issues on the mods forum is more time spent on development with less encumbrance to modders where Idea's can be tossed about with much less distraction
and those designated Public Relations types can do the support thing
over on the players forums.

(I'm suggesting password access to modders forums here Moderators)

regarding modders posting on the players forums I dont think there
has really ever been any consideration that this is detrimental but
IMO here we see the classic example, my experience is Identical to
Markshots and I wasnt posting anything against or about GWX team
or development I was posting tactics on a players forum and it should
never have even been an issue of discussion.

As for how to prevent the occurences of professional insult at the
implication of imperfection when a gamebreaking tactic is posted well
I confess I am a little light on good suggestions for this one other than
an emphasis to the moderators from management to police the regular
tribes for flaming campaigns a little more tightly under a new format.

There really isnt anything wrong with posting a game winning tactic
like show the peri alongside an enemy combatant to start a friendly
fire incident or shallow depths causing excited crews to blow their
sterns off.

as far as posting player tactics thats is IMO what the players forums
are for.

as for it ruining it for players IMO thats just an excuse used to post
what amounts to a semi regular and unrecognized flaming campaign.

if the players have the self discipline to play right then they do and
if they dont then they dont If I post a tactic and someone that hates
it uses it because it works well that just proves its a tactic worth posting.

if a player lacks self discipline to play by their own standard its not
the tactics fault.

in the end all of these are only games nothing more, not secret lives
or government projects nor the measure of a man. Games thats all.


M out.

I'll have you know I'm the only one allowed to wear a tea cozy here.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5931/balzdr2.jpg

A nice debate Pen and Markshot.

Today is Sunday, the day of peace. Can we all put the past behind us and move on now for the sake of peaceful co-existence.

Besides, Newcastle are 2-0 up at half time against Sunderland in the local derby.....now that is a matter much more important than life itself :yep:

@Pen...."None of us are as clever as all of us" ;)

@Markshot......Do you not think the bottom of your sig could be interpreted as baiting by some folk :hmm:

Let us all bear one common thought.....this is not RL.....tis a game, nothing more and nothing less.

Peaceful co-existence is the way forward http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...ies/pirate.gif

Aye, our hockey team won the Swedes today too! Great game, we were losing 1-2 and IIRC 41sec before the end we managed to make the goal and just over 2 minutes to the overtime we bagged the winning goal! :rock: