"All for the glory of Rome!" :yeah:

Costs us billions and billions. Costs us jobs. Costs us social stability. Costs us manouvering space in already marked negotiations.

Its not an befriended nation behaving like this, but a hostile nation- one has to voice it that clearly.

Also irritating, to put it mildly, is that Americans only worry if they are the ones who get spied on by their government, or get targetted by foreign intel - for their precious American laws should protect them form that. But they have apparently little problem with treating claimed "friends" as "friends of second and third class only.

But I also see it from this perspective: Europe allows it, Europe invites it by remaining weak and helpless and passive, and European leaders did not complain as long as the dirty truth was kept hidden under the carpet.

Or does anyone seriously think for even just one second that European leaders did not know all this since years already...?

And why is it that the focus is on the Americans only? By the last days' reports it seems that the British spying efforts even exceed those of the Americans at least as far as Germany is targetted. Must be to not additionally fuel any British-continental rifts within the precious EU union of friends and big happy family.

Hey calm down !

For the NSA Germany is an 'attack target', but at least we are only in the third rank of befriended nations.
I wonder which treatment the friends get :rotfl2:

Third rank in another category as well: only Iran and Pakistan get more surveillance treatment by the NSA than Germany does. While Merkel apparently got bugged as well. that makes us probably the top number one goal for the NSA regarding economic espionage, since even when thinking bad I cannot imagine that there is so much terror threat coming from Germany. Only the Chinese spy more on Germany businesses than the Americans.

But they want to get their free trade zone nevertheless - with the major profiteer from this being the US, most of the EU states not being affected that much by it in net total - and Germany suffering clear and high negative consequences from it.

Matching this is the news from last days that Irish bankers were mocking and laughing about the German financial aid to the EU and to Ireland recently, and that they Germans are to be eternally thanked for for being such idiots.

Mit uns Deutschen kann man's ja machen, Catfish, wir sind uns wirklich für nix zu dumm, gelle? In a way, I begrudge it to us. Lacking education is one thing - but stupidity deserves to get exploited.

I think that the way the US are treating Europe, also indicates something else, which could be read from many earlier diplomatic signals over the past couple of years: that is that the EU is not winning but loosing in relevance, that Europe is not important enough anymore for the US to be taken serious, and that there is little the US has seriously to fear from the EU and its impotence, no matter how loud European operetta stars sing in the EU institutions. It is a historic fact that we are becoming more and more marginal to world affairs, that simple. That's the wheel of time turning, the up and now the down of history. We are not being taken serious in the Arab world as well. And also not in China and the Far East - they know that they already have surpassed us. And Russia, I think Russia is simply shaking its head when looking at us.

Honestly Sky, I know you truly believe what you post but do you seriously think everything is actually as bad as you portray it?

Spying is carried out by most countries surely, the only difference being to whom and to what extent.

Germany bailing out European partners was a German decision built around I suspect the German government wanting to be the major player on the European circuit....getting a sense of deja vu yet?

I believe Germany are taken seriously, certainly as much as the UK but it can help to use muscles of a different nature than financial when asked by a friend in need from time to time.

Well, America traditionally sees itself as being on a mission to Americanise the world with American goings and virtues, and it even claims that quite openly, with according references hinting out both the demand to be the global dominating player, and others needing to follow American examples. The spying affair now is anything but about security, obviously, and goes far beyond fighting terrorism, but is about bugging governments and leaders as well as spying on business companies and extracting their knowledge and to learn about their negotiation plans in any sort of mutual economic talkings and negotiations. To know what the other company plans and intends to do when for example offering a bid for something, obviously is an advantage that can win your own side millions and billions, and if you think it to the end, does damage to the other both in fiscal and social dimension and hurts the other's national community (because it pays the price for the theft by loosing incomes and being unable to make the hoped-for returns for its own investments in development). You shall not oversee that in Brussel there are seated several times as many American lobbyists than there are EU officials, members of parliament, decision makers. Not just business lobbyists - American business lobbyists. Only in Washington itself things are said to be even worse.

Part of the American interest in Germany can be explained due to the fact that Germany is the European centre for internet traffic from and to Europe, as such a Nexus it necessarily receives more attention than other nations. But you cannot explain why offices of the EU or the cellphone by chancellor Merkel get bugged and monitored. I also have a principle problem with the reversing of this fundamental pillar of our Western law system: that the suspect is assumed innocent as long as not proven guilty. The Americans behave exactly the other way around, and they did that since 9/11, their new regulations for airline passengers and new arrivers in the US, the need to reveal more private information about yourself than the police would ask of you if you were arrested as a suspect in criminal case. Totalitarian data control and data collection - yes, Jim, I have a big problem with that, because I see the immense, the monumental opportunity for abuse here. Not just because I have a problem with democratic states in principle, as recently explained in long and twisted threads, but because of the American egoist business interest as well. These data collections will get used one way or the other, will attract criminal energy, will raise demands to use them for business interests, and there is no system of checks and balances in our understanding in the US that monitors what is being done with these data. They just get stored, often for legally 15 or 30 years or without limits, and where the Americans agreed to store them for shorter time in the past they nevertheless refused any possibility to indeed control that. Many people just are satisfied with saying that a law says this or that, a treaty, and that that is to be trusted, point. I can only laugh about that amount of naivety. Governments make laws as they need them, and where it is opportune for them and they see the chance of getting away with it, they even break laws - their own laws. In that, America is not any different than Europe. They just do what they want as if all others were people of second (non-American) class only, and that pisses me big time indeed. Have the past 20 years or so not proven time and again that this is not the trustworthy knight in shiny armor that it claims it is? I will trust the US regarding its actions that base on egoist power and economic intere3st. I do not trust it one bit on basis of its holy claims of what it was intended to be like as a nation, because these ideals have all been betrayed and eroded the same way like our own constitution. In this, America is not one bit better than european countries.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Data is power. total data is total power.

Usually it is us Germans being seen as the preototypepf the obedient vassal to the "Obrigkeitsstaat", being humble and happily subordinate and have a strong taste for putting our trust in the state, in uniforms, titles and Führers , and that is a reputation Germans have had since long before Hitler, it goes back to Prussia, if not earlier. But that cliche is no longer valid, I would say, for in this forum so often people from America have expressed such an uncritical, undistanced, naive, blindly trusting attitude towards the system they live in, just because something idealistic gets quoted from some ancient historic paperwork. These people would have made perfect vassals to the German Obrigkeitsstaat in earlier parts of our history, really.

The state is not to be trusted. Neither should foreigners trust a foreign state, nor should the citizens of that state trust it. State is bureaucracy, is political actors, is political parties and plenty of private lobbyists bypassing anything the citizens try to practice in checks and balances, opinion-givings and elections. You do not put your trust into such a dangerous entity that demonstrates time and again to have a strong interest in betraying even its own people, not to mention everybody else. You'd be crazy if you do. It is against the own interest of the actors to act honestly and trustworthy, I have explained the Why repeatedly in past weeks.

That is what you non-German foreigners simply always fail to correctly understand: you have no clue of this twisted thing that post-war German mentality is. Most Germans fear being a leader and dominant player in europe more than the plague, and the majority of the political canon beats the same drum. As a matter of fact we are also expected by other people to pay, but the smallest hesitation of ours to do so, the smallest remark on that the receiving side also has moral obligations instead of taking German payments for granted gets immediately turned against us and called "German dominance-seeking". That is hilarious, and very obviously opportunistic. And Britain - it surely wants Germany to bail, out half of Europe, yes, and not caring for money inflation anymore - because the British finance industry desperately depends on loose money policies.

Like for example in the gulf war? Your American buddies drilled a ring through your nose and led you through the arena by it. And you got lied to and betrayed just like anyone else. The "special relation" is a hollow thing, it serves the purpose of giving the Americans what they want from you, with you not getting back something on equal terms. They fool you, and you allow to get fooled, hoping you get a tanned skin by an imagined sun the same way as if your place in the sun were for real. But the sweet sweet sound of pathetic speeches and rhetorics, this boost one gets from wallowing in sentimental emotions - its so GREAT to have a special relation with Rome, some of Rome's shine is dripping onto you that way, doesn't it? By the end of the day, much was ventured by you, but little was gained, and your skin still is as pale as before.

Try not to be too offended or surprised.

http://www.dw.de/germany-also-profit...ing/a-16916837

I'm neither offended nor surprised. It'S just another reason why I do not trust any governments there are. I expect nobody to act against his very own interest. And to act honestly is against governments' interest. That the government will cheat, lie, erode or bypass laws and treaties, hide, and betray thus is a truth I always take for certain. Always. It is unreasonable to assume differently.

That the Germans do not overhear what is being talked in Whitehall or the White House however I am pretty much sure of. Nor does German economic espionage compare to the levels it is run by the US and China (as far as we know, but I think we simply do not have the assets, nor the will).

I can almost agree to some extent. The difference is that I don't believe that ever single person in government is part of this grand conspiracy. I'm not quite that paranoid, if I may use that word. No offence intended.

I don't trust the government either. I don't think we are required to. In fact we would be fools to. This is why there are term limits and elections. In Canada we have an Auditor General. And there are many private watchdog agencies and concerned citizens.

Yes, as you say Governments, Gov't agencies, corporations and yes even individuals act in accordance with their own vested interests. This is the natural order of things. It always has been that way. We should not be surprised. Advances in technology and modern communication will only compound the issue. It's the evolutionary model on a large scale. The strong prey on the weak. If the weak do not adapt they will perish. What is morally right or wrong has nothing to do with it. Past alliances and long standing friendships have nothing to do with it. Power and money.

As to industrial spying, that's an even shadier deal. The owners of corporations in any country may have interests elsewhere. Who is spying on who and who benefits from it? Certain countries may use this information for their benefit but for sure international corporations are the real winners. Whether you're German or American means nothing to them. Profits.

Yes but the article suggests that Germany shares this information. Again I would ask, who is spying on who? Perhaps your Chancellor is very interested in this data?

This message will self destruct in five seconds. Good luck.:03:

You say money rules the world, the strong rule the world, that's what it allways was like.

Well, money was invented to serve us, not to rule us. The accumulation of money enables us to rule.

If the strong rule the world and the weak have to accept it, then there is no bad in trying to become an even stronger one and make the former strong ones to accept it.
The strong ones say, this has to follow certain rules - the laws.
Really? I guess they just try to protect their status quo.

The weak could play any rules they like, to become the strong ones.
Because the strong ones rule the world - and they follow their own laws - if at all.
By the way - you may have observed it - some strong break the law and rule anyway.
The strong are not endagered, because the weak follow the laws.

And it is not allways like that. What about your family? Do you opress, starve or kill your weak members? Your friends? Do you care or rule?
Your neighborhood? Your village? Town? Nation?

It allways depends on your own point of view. If you want to care you do. There is no rule of overpower everybody else. It depends on your relationship.

We try to rule the others - the unknown. They may be slaves, they may die. We simply look away and care for our kind.

What would happen, if we would consider the whole mankind as our brothers?
Imagine we would have to fight a common enemy. An alien race, that wants to annihilate our species.
Do you think the strong would change their point of view? Would they share all their resources to surive?

Again - the strong are not endagered, because the weak follow the laws.
If they wouldn't, the strong would have to surrender, because they are only a few.

I am about the modus operandi the system self-dynamically runs by. I tried to explain that to Oberon in detail two weeks ago, maybe you have read that slightly "excessive" thread. :) My claim is that in our system, politicians have a high interest and thus a strong motivation to play foul on their people, and that people even encourage them to play foul.

Like a swimmer in a stream - you flow with the direction the water runs at. It is not the swimmer making the waves. He is doomed to deal with waves the moment he enters the river. The river is what it is. There are lousy swimmers, there are athletic ones, some have good intentions, some have not. But only those who can swim keep their head over water, so nobody should be surprised that swimmers can - well, swim :), like one should not be surprised that politicians play foul. The river stays the same, water's direction stays the same. The waves are the same. Everybody gets wet.

My problem is with the river in general. Because it is wet. My problem is with the system, because it is foul. The swimmer, the politicians - hold no surprise at all. Paranoia has nothing to do with it. You are not hydrophobic when stating that water is wet.

Looking at this article one can only presume SubSim is being bugged as well :hmmm:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23125451

Money provides power. It enables power. It sustains power.
What do all men with money and power want?
More money and more power.
Look in the shadows and you will find these men. Men who are afraid because they fear the light of day that would expose their corruptions and diminish their power.
This is the establishment they have built for their own gain. What they don't build, they infiltrate and usurp.
Any man that dares shine a light on them is dealt with in a swift and harsh manner. That is the path Edward Snowden is walking now. We can only hope that he is bulletproof.

People and companies spy on people OMG.:o
What world has come to....


Stone the POTUS long live the POTUS.

stone the Potus and all leaders across the globe.

No I don't. Does everybody else? No they don't. But since day one, some people, tribes , kings and nations have. All are born naked and innocent. All do not stay innocent. This is human nature. And evolution. Any reading of human history shows this quite plainly. Some humans and groups interact for their mutual benefit. But not all. Some humans and groups of humans act with only their own interests in mind. I'm not saying I like it or agree with it. I'm saying that's the way it is. That's the way it has always been.

Money of itself is neutral. You can build a hospital or a hydrogen bomb. The money doesn't decide, the person with the money decides.

I've noticed that also.

That is a very interesting question and one I have thought about. Almost for certain someone would try to profit from it financially as well as politically. It's what we do. :D