Actually Washington and Jefferson considered themselves first and foremost farmers. Jefferson was proud of being a farmer, writer and educator. He wasn't proud of being president, and he hated merchants. His biggest business was a nail factory, run entirely by slave labor. If he was a businessman, he would make a pretty poor example, dieing several hundred thousand dollars in debt, for which his land and belongings were auctioned off, leaving his family destitute.

well they could consider themselves anything they want but the fact remains they ran businesses, rather large ones for the time. Whether they were successful or not at it is not the issue.

As far as ass-kicking goes, Washington lost more battles against the British than he won, except the last couple, the important ones, where the French finally turned up. He wasn't a very good general really.

Speaking of military men, how about these fine specimens spotted at the Republican candidate debate:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/...bate_crowd.jpg

Incredible. Not only do these people actually exist, but someone even thought it would be a good idea to give them seats right at the front, to guarantee that they'd be seen. American politics resembles pro wrestling more and more each year.

In fact, they should style US elections like sports entertainment. Instead of joint tickets there would be tag teams.

Mitt Romney would wear stylized LDS temple robes with a domino mask. Each time he enters and walks up to the mic his signature tune plays, a cover of Ace Of Spades by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. He's the glamour man of the Grand Old Federation, as the party is now known, and is always surrounded by a dozen hot bitches or, as he calls them, "wives". At some critical juncture in a match he'll fall on the floor and starts flopping around speaking in tongues as he receives instructions from Moroni about whether to do an armdrag takeover or body slam.

"The Executioner" Rick Perry's gimmick would be a theatrical electric chair that he'd use to "fry" his foes after suplexing them into submission. It'd be a real spectacle, all rigged up with magnesium squibs. I can see him flipping the switch on Cain, who is in persona as a retarded death row inmate, as he yells "I'M ABOUT TO CUT BACK ON FUNDING, AND I WON'T REGRET THIS!".

Ron Paul could turn heel and come out in a red unitard as "Atlas", signature move: "The Shrug". His weedy physique and waxy flab muscles would be balanced by a Nietzschian will and belief in the power of the self. And instead of a folding chair, he can hit enemies over the head with a paving slab-sized foam copy of The Road To Serfdom. Worked interviews and promos would be carried out while flanked by a couple of fat militia dudes in jungle fatigues and carrying Mini-14s.

If the Republicans adopt this scheme I guarantee they'll make big gains with the voters and set themselves up for 2012. They'd clean out the leftists and then give the crotch chops.

Oh my god. Best of Subsim post of the year right here. Contest's over. :rotfl2::har::haha:

While I won't disagree fully, I will have to say there was multiple factors than just the French.

Considering the minutemen were never professionally trained soldiers, they typically lacked the discipline to stay in line to repel a bayonet charge.

That did change when a man claiming to be a Prussian general showed up..
Friedrich Wilhelm Von Steuben. He trained the militia in European drill. The British were dumbfounded when they didn't run from bayonet charges anymore. (Von Steuben was later only found to be a captain or something, but hoax or not, he delivered.

We also took part in guerrilla tactics. Once again professional army versus farmers.

And as for the French, they didn't show up until they were sure they would be on the winning side.

Once again, it was not so much the French Navy, but a German officer.:D

Yes and no. Washington may or may not have been a good tactical commander. Then again, given the odds at the beginning of the war, it's a miracle the Continental Army survived at all. That, or their commander's genius for eluding a vastly superior enemy and keeping them alive. As for the French, Rochambeau, in a display of decidedly un-French behaviour, cheerfully placed himself under Washington's command and followed his orders, deferring to him in every respect.

He wasn't all that good a president either. A great one, yes, since he defined what the US Presidency would be, and refused to let the office be more than a representative one, first citizen if you will. As an actual leader he was less than strong, concerning himself with holding a neutral course, guided by archenemies Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson, and when Jefferson stepped down as Secretary of State Washington allowed himself to be led by Hamilton away from the center and into a disastrous alliance with Britain against the French.

Well, De Grasse's fleet did keep Cornwallis from getting reenforcements. But I agree, all the help that Washington recieved was given because the people involved recognized his greatness. More than one contemporary (King George III and Napoleon Bonaparte included) were amazed when he stepped down after the war was concluded, and even more so when he retired after two terms as president, refusing to be a dictator.

Not the best tactical general nor the best administrator, he was still the greatest man America has known.

Yes, I'm a fan. :sunny:

:DI wasn't trying to discount the French fleet at all. I was trying to say that if we didn't start winning tactical land victories (Von Steuben), the French would have never stuck their neck out. :)
They risked an all out war with England for supporting our "insurrection" and wanted to be sure it would not be in naught.

I am a huge fan of the man as well, he was a fan of this man they say.
Though I don't know who said, I saw it on the military channel:03:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnatus

Was given dictatorship by the senate to defeat a triple threat of invasions.

Upon winning he relinquished his title and returned to his farm. Just as Washington did. I believe the presidency was pushed on him due to his "hero" status. But he died a pauper on his farm. The first and last "man of the people"
:rock::rock::rock:

I'm biased, I live 15 miles from Monmouth battlefield park and always watch the re-creations. I love stuff like this.

Herman Cain thread is now a history class! :hmmm:

I'll take partial blame in that, sir.:oops:

So I will bring it back.

I was a huge fan of Cain until he was actually pressed to say something of substance. I am glad I stay open minded.

Vote for Lady Gaga, at least she can dance.

I want a Mitt and Perry ticket. To watch them argue for 4 years would be comedy gold.:har:

Any dems want to run against Obammy? And at least give a viable choice.

The flea circus from the GOP is amusing, but we don't need comedy right now.

I think you're overestimating Von Steubens effect. Nothing against his contribution but I believe it was actually our decisive victory at the Battle of Saratoga which convinced the French that we were worth backing.

Personally, I find the switch to the historical to be an improvement.

Here is some copypasta from wikipedia, short section on his effect, echoing my main point about the Americans actually not running from bayonet charges.

Training program
Steuben's training technique was to create a "model company", a group of 120 chosen men who in turn successively trained other personnel at Regimental and Brigade levels. Steuben's eccentric personality greatly enhanced his mystique. He trained the soldiers, who at this point were greatly lacking in proper clothing themselves, in full military dress uniform, swearing and yelling at them up and down in German and French. When that was no longer successful, he recruited Captain Benjamin Walker, his French-speaking aide, to curse at them for him in English. Steuben introduced a system of progressive training, beginning with the school of the soldier, with and without arms, and going through the school of the regiment. This corrected the previous policy of simply assigning personnel to regiments. Each company commander was made responsible for the training of new men, but actual instruction was done by selected sergeants, the best obtainable.
Another program developed by Steuben was camp sanitation. He established standards of sanitation and camp layouts that would still be standard a century and a half later. There had previously been no set arrangement of tents and huts. Men relieved themselves where they wished and when an animal died, it was stripped of its meat and the rest was left to rot where it lay. Steuben laid out a plan to have rows for command, officers and enlisted men. Kitchens and latrines were on opposite sides of the camp, with latrines on the downhill side. There was the familiar arrangement of company and regimental streets.
Perhaps Steuben's biggest contribution to the American Revolution was training in the use of the bayonet. Since the Battle of Bunker Hill, Americans had been mainly dependent upon using their ammunition to win battles. Throughout the early course of the war, Americans used the bayonet mostly as a cooking skewer or tool rather than as a fighting instrument. Steuben's introduction of effective bayonet charges became crucial. In the Battle of Stony Point, American soldiers attacked with unloaded muskets and won the battle solely on Steuben's bayonet training.
The first results of Steuben's training were in evidence at the Battle of Barren Hill, 20 May 1778 and then again at the Battle of Monmouth in June 1778. Steuben, by then serving in Washington's Headquarters, was the first to determine the enemy was heading for Monmouth. Washington recommended appointment of Steuben as Inspector General on April 30; Congress approved it on May 5. During the winter of 1778-1779, Steuben prepared Regulations for the Order and Discipline of the Troops of the United States, commonly known as the "Blue Book."[5][6] Its basis was the training plan he had devised at Valley Forge.

Once again I am biased, not discounting you. But he was a large percentage in our sucess.I honestly think our battles would have been moot without european drill. My opinion.:salute:
Though I respect yours too August.. After all no one knows for sure, unless we were there.
So we can all be wrong:D

Soopaman2,

You'll soon note that people tend to have a dim view of Wikpedia around here.

But be that as it may your copy paste lecture was unnecessary. I am quite aware of von Strubens contributions to our war effort. I am also quite aware of Washington's continued efforts to mold a "continental" Army, capable of fighting conventional battles.

What I am saying is that it's not discipline or tactics or sanitation that brought the French in on our side, it was a major military victory. We had to demonstrate that we could beat the British in a major battle. How we did it was secondary.

The defeat of Burgoyne at Saratoga was that victory. It's cited as the primary motivating force in the French recognition of the fledgling republic and their pledges of military and financial aid signed just a few months later while von Stuben was still training Washington's troops at Valley Forge.

Real classy the both of you. One of you demeans women, relgion, claims a successful businessman is "in persona" as a retarded death row inmate, takes shots at an old man with convictions in what he believes in.

The other - encourages it and thinks its the subsim post of the year.

What has this site come to - that this kind of thing is not just tolerated - but lauded?

WE. ARE. THE. FUN. POLICE. THERE. SHALL BE. NO. LEVITY. PARODY. OR. HYPERBOLE. USED. FOR. COMEDIC. EFFECT. UNACCEPTABLE. UNACCEPTABLE. BZZZZZZTTTT.

By the way, what's more offensive: the fact that Texas executes retarded people or making light of the fact that they do?