I just don't like the British telling us Finns how we should be gratefull for them or the US.

Oberon,

that's a pretty 'progressive' linguistic expression even for me.

What, are you saying that the Brits didn't deliver the aid because Finns were co-belligerents of the nazis? The French also screwed us over and then you're all "show gratitude to the US". How about NO.

It was a direct quote from Germany through unofficial channels to Finland in 1940.
But yeah, you know what? I like Finland, and yeah, we did screw Finland over in 1940, I will admit that, we are not perfect, no nation is, not even America.

I like Finland, I really do, and I have a lot of respect for the Finnish spirit, just ask Dowly, and I'm sorry if I offended with my comment but yours was hardly free from offense either.

So, what I am going to do, to prevent any further arguments about Finland and any further offense to Finnish people caused by your insults and my counter-insults, I will put you on ignore and I suggest that anyone else who wishes not to lose their temper trying to put forward an alternate point of view to this chap.

I bear you no ill will OTH, and I hope that you learn one day that you will have greater successes in your points of view if you care to moderate your tone, which I know you can do. After all, you are more likely to bring people to your point of view if you are not slinging around insults and making yourself look quite unbelievable.

Näkemiin

Oberon,

if from the last couple of messages you derived some kind of personal attack against yourself then do so. However, it wasn't meant as such.

It's just that the UK and US tend to speak categorically to Finns, and other East European nations. And many nations who have joined Nato have done what has been asked, and also Finland as a "Partnership for peace" - nation. What we don't like is being told, either from the west or the east, what we should do, think or be like. We do our thing, which has worked out quite well for us as a small northern nation without much natural resources.

We used to have an ex-general called Adolf Ehnrooth who disliked Finland's culture being increasingly permeated by US influence. Now this guy wasn't a left-winger by any chance, he also told Finnish neo-nazis to sod off when they tried to take him as their figurehead. So, I don't consider my views to really be that much off-center of what is the 'average' in Finland.

On the one hand I agree with OTH (and of course Dowly) about Finland. They fought a titanic struggle for freedom and won, and I believe they did it without any outside help.

On the other hand Dowly politely disagrees and invites discussion while OTH pisses on everybody, and in this case openly says so.

Countries help each other or don't, and we can argue about it, but hating a country for any reason is fruitless. Hitler and the Nazis tried to conquer Europe, The German people went along with it, not because they wanted to conquer anybody but because people are people. They had been stomped on by the British and the French at the end of the previous war, and Hitler was the man who proved he could take them to the top again.

The point is not that Germans are evil - they're not. The point is that it could just as easily happen in your country, or in mine. It happens because people are human.

But individuals make their own way, and their own case. Standing up for your country and having an argument is also human, but how you do it makes the difference between being respected and being laughed at.

^^
+1 http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img524...uperyestj1.gif

Dowly - thank you for asking this. Because before you asked it, I didn't know - and now I do.

When talking about WW2 and actual conflict, the US cannot claim to have offered or rendered any substantial aid to Finland.

However, I would say that Roosevelt calling for Finland to seperate itself from its support of Germany, prior to the Russian offensive, opened the door to the Finnish parliment that they could get out of being stuck side by side with the Germans in their fall. Given the Russian offensive and its outcome that ended the Continuation War, Finland NEEDED that door open. In stepping though, that Lapland War was started its true, but that pales in comparison to the earlier conflicts. Without the US opening that door, Finland is likely to have been the "last refuge" of the Nazis, meaning it would have seen the same kind of fighting that Germany saw on its soil late in the war.

Was it a big deal? Yes and no - in the scheme of things - the same call would likely have gone out sooner or later anyway, once Ryti resigned, or Finland may have initiated feelers to the same end on its own. Still, its easier to walk through a door that has been cracked that having to open it yourself.

Does Finland "owe" the US anything - not really no. No more than any other country owes the US for its actions in history. And with that said - its important to realize that most every european nation owes the US, but its also true that the US owes alot to most every european nation as well. Too many on both sides forget that its a balance of history from all sides that has us surviving where we are today.

:rock:

:yep::up:

I might add that while many finns think badly for the Allies for not sending help to aid our effort to strike back the Sovietsm one must remember that if the allies would have done that, it would have mean't war with the Soviet Union, an open war, not cold war as it happened. World war 2 would've been much longer if the allies would have taken the side of Finland.

Now, of course I would be speaking differently if Finland had fallen, but still, something to think about. :hmmm:

EDIT: Tho, I must say OTH has a point in saying that we don't like to be told what to do. We are extremely proud people and very stubborn. But, regardless, I do see a change in our policies that tend to make us more of an lapdog to the bigger countries, dont like that at all. What happened to the independent Finland that makes due with what it has?

Heh, that's always been what has made Finland Finland. Sisu, I believe it is called. I don't think anyone here was saying that Finland must obey the US or UK or even the EU (heck, we don't obey the EU half the time). We just don't get the blind hatred that some people have towards us all because of some of the mistakes we have made, like I said, no-one's perfect. Particularly politicians. :damn:

I'd say the same thing that's happening to my country and nearly every other one in the world. Finland is certainly not alone in feeling a loss of autonomy. After all how can anyone be really independent when our economies depend upon each other for survival?

@Oberon

Yah, didn't mean it like someone was saying us what to do, just sayign how we are over here. :salute:

@August

Yes, you are right. Economy ties all countries together nowadays, we all depend on each other.

Gotcha, and I do sympathise, there's a bit of bitterness here over how dependent we are on the US and EU for continued survival when once upon a time we ran half the planet. Times change though, and certainly it's no slight on the US or EU but a sign of what a small planet it is now.

OTH has lots of good points. Sometimes he gets a little excited, is all. :sunny:

Cannot deny it. He does make good points, just in all the wrong ways. :damn: