well Obama does like to quote Reagan regularly...:hmmm:

There is no side track. I understand your point. The new healthcare is not remotely close to socialism. For today anyway. It was not remotely close to tax a few months ago either. It was a penalty that became a tax. The picture is a bit larger though. The amount of new government employees required to run this juggernaut will be astronomical. Who is paying for the new government employees? Those getting the "tax"? This mandate is a rudderless ship on a voyage to the edge of the world. In 18 months this system needs to be up and running. See you on the other side. Bring your checkbook. :up:

I have never said that there is no possibility I am wrong.There are things I know are true because history has proven them true and I have seen it repeatedly in my life time.

I know it is absolutely wrong for the federal government to compel a citizen to purchase a service or product, it is the antithesis or what the founders wanted, it's a big centralized authority running over the individual's financial liberty, telling them they must allocate this much or be fined/taxed.I was proven right by the decision that it was unconstitutional under the commerce clause(which was obvious) and am astounded with his intellectual dishonesty on the tax issue, especially since it has come out he changed his mind while writing the opinion, after the justices had a vote.I read his decision, 3 times now, just amazes me he would throw the government that much of a bone, but he had other motivating factors outside of the law.Sadly, he did not consider the ramifications of the precedent set by the decision.


As far as socialism is concerned, people think the classic definition of socialism.Obama is a true believer, a marxist, there really is no denying that, his past etc clearly indicates this.However, he wants to maintain power so he will do what he temporarily sees as sacrificing certain goals to achieve them in the long run.Obama now doubt wanted a big single payer, they couldn't get it, so he said okay, let's take the NEOCON(not actual conservatives) idea of mandating privately insurance, but have government controls on it, esp taxes which will make the government money but have people sour on the rising costs.The eventual, long term goal of practically eliminating private insurance will eventually be achieved when the time is right to push for a big single payer for the USA.

Aside from the bad policy the law is, the big concern is the precedent it set, the power the ruling gives the feds.The Republic died in June 29, 2012, just too sad/.:/\\!!

And Rocky 4 was the best of them all! :up:


It's irrelevant. The point is not whether socialism is good, bad, indifferent or other. The point is that the word "socialism" comes loaded with all of that imagery that Ducimus posted. Those images in and of themselves are a powerful motivator for people raised during the Cold War where the Russians were the bad guys.

Stir that pot!

Should have stopped at Rocky 1.

Interesting. So allowing the younger generation to go in blindly is irrelevant? Can I see any good images of socialism?


It is your recipe. We need to see the ingredients. :O: Anything of special interest we can say is great about socialism?

Since our forum Dems can't come up with anything good about socialism how about we look at 4 ways that Obamacare really is a tax.

1. Medical Device Manufacturing tax: A brand spanking new 2.5% tax on every prosthesis, pacemaker, stent, operating table, hemostat, MRI machine and anything else manufactured in the US that would be considered a medical device. The stuff is expensive already and since most health care insurers limit the amount they'll pay for these devices you can guess who is going to have to pick up the extra cost.

2. Medical deductions. Currently, Americans are allowed to deduct medical expenses on their 1040 form to the extent the costs exceed 7.5 percent of one’s adjusted gross income. Under Obamacare that is going to be raised to 10%. Yay!

3. Flexible Spending account cap. Now those with high medical bills will be limited in how much they can have removed from their checks before taxes. $2500 per year. Not very much given today's prices.

4. Surtax on Capital Gains. From 15% across the board to 20%. This will of course hurt seniors who live on this income the most but everyone who has investments will get hit.

So Obamacare no matter how you slice it has plenty of real taxes in it along with the stupid non compliance penalty everyone is so up in arms about. Conveniently for the Campaigner in Chief though most of these won't take effect until after the November election. Almost like it was planned. :shifty:

You're taking things on a tangent. I'm not going to be baited into some ludicrous off topic debate on the merits of socialism. Here it is again. Read carefully:

The GOP likes to use those classic images of socialism to stir up feelings in voters. It is used as motivation to vote GOP.

How you get to "oh, I say socialism is good!" out of that is beyond me. Your question is completely irrelevant to what I said and you're doing nothing but playing games. I won't play your game.

Start a thread on it and wait for someone to defend it if that's what you want so bad.


"Waaaaaaahhhh, they won't take the red herring bait! Boo hoo!" :Kaleun_Crying:

And there's your problem right there. I've told you before, as long as you "know" something you leave yourself no room to learn anything. As I've also said before, you don't seem to notice that you never discuss anything on these forums; you only preach your "truth". You call Obama a "true believer", but that phrase also describes you. You don't just adhere to a Conservative line, you march in lockstep with the hard right. You make real Conservatives look bad.

It's this type of statement that keeps you on the fringes, and everyone else not taking you seriously. You're stuck in a rut of your own making and don't even see it.

I guess that's understandable given the inherent weakness of the pro-socialism side of the argument. That's why I gave you the out of discussing the disparity between what your side is claiming aren't really taxes but "penalties". Too bad you choose to ignore that too.

You know just because the Republicans can't handle a political weapon without shooting themselves in the foot with it (they are the stupid party after all) that doesn't mean that Obamacare really isn't going to be a huge and expensive boondoggle that should be severely modified if not outright repealed.

There is no bait or tangent. There is only silence to the question and bold sentences. And did I anywhere say that you believe socialism is good? No sir. I asked a general question. What good imagery or otherwise is there for socialism? Instead I get red fish, bait and ludicrous topic. How so when it is stated in this thread that the Repubs are using socialism as a tool to provide bad imagery for this healthcare? The Dems do not use a similar tactic when needed?

So what, the Repubs are throwing out bad imagery of socialism and calling this healthcare socialism. Ok, it is entirely different. Similar to a penalty and a tax.

I do not need to start a thread and have someone defend anything. I ask a general question concerning socialism.

Yep. That's the kind of emotionally charged rhetoric that i think the folks on the right need to deep six into the Mariana trench. For one, it's irrational. For two, its an emotionally charged statement that lacks factual evidence since the country is still operating just fine. For three, its a statement that goes from 0 to 100 in 1.5 seconds with nothing in between. That, in a literary sense, is tantamount to doing this:
(If i wasn't hot linking this picture, id flip it the other direction)
http://www.strangemilitary.com/image...ent/110636.jpg

and that, is poster child of extreme.

Choice of words matter when conveying a message you want to be heard.

To deny the Republic died on June 29, is being blind.Do you understand legal precedent? The government now has the power to tax you in order to compel your behavior.Now, they can order you to buy healthcare or be fined, oh i mean taxed.Basically, government now dictates to citizens part of their budget, this is not the US I was born in and should have to live in.Where does it end? Whats next? There just is not a demand for electric cars but the all knowing government says we need to get more people in electric cars, even if there isnt one out there of enough quality to create a a demand, so hey everyone has to purchase an eletric car withing 5 years of this law or be "taxed". There is not the role of the government, but with this precedent, this could happen, give them an inch, they will take a mile.Absolutely the Republic is dead, had been ill for a long time, this was the deathblow.Denial of that, is just being ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

So where are you moving to?

Religious, political; fanatics are all the same. You just keep on preaching and not talking. You don't seem to realize how little credibility you have left.

I'll say it for the hundredth time, and hope for the hundredth time you actually start to learn. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. I agree with you on many points, but I stay away from you because fanatics like you and Yubba manage to make Conservatives look bad. Worse, you manage to make them look stupid. If anything can convince people to support Liberal causes, it's "Conservatives" like you.

Think about learning how to talk intelligently. You can't bring people around to your way of thinking by hitting them over the head with a hammer.

You using this term is the purest form of irony I can imagine.

http://homework.never-ends.net/wp-co...onceivable.jpg