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-   -   D-Day, June 6th, 1943??? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=91218)

Neutrino 123 05-03-06 02:53 AM

I finished "Second Front Now - 1943" by Walter Dunn, and it was a well written book, though some might find it a bit dry. He gets a few things wrong (some inavoidably - the book was written when ULTRA was just revealed to the public and not all ULTRA information was avalible) and leaves out specific details in a few things that I would consider important, but some of these are actually benificial to the Allies (example: he says the Mk IV had 85mm of front armor, but it had no more then 80mm with low slope in the hull and only 50mm in the turret, which is more important then the hull). The book is well-crammed with many useful facts.

Particularly important statistics to judge the German strength in the West is the tank strength of their forces. On 20 June 1943 (very close the the projected invasion time) the panzer strength was very low (from table on p.99):

46 Panzer II 20mm L/55 popgun
61 Panzer IIIF medium-barreled 50mm L/42 gun
14 Panzer IIIM flammenpanzer
111 Panzer IIIJ* long-barreled 50mm L/60 gun
18 Panzer IIIN short-barreled 75mm L/24 gun
31 Panzer IVF short-barreled 75mm L/24 gun
152 Panzer IVH medium-barreled 75mm L/48 gun
400 captured tanks (mostly French tanks with ineffective guns)
17 command tanks
assault guns numbers not specified (there were a few Marders and Stugs with effective 76.2mm/75mm guns, while others were crappy including things such as French WWI 75mm guns from p.84)

*All late with 50mm L/60 according to the table, but I cannot confirm this. It is possible that some of these were earlier J-models with 50mm L/42 guns. The source may also have lumped the early Js into the 'F' type catagory.

From this table, it can be seen that there were only 152 tanks capable of dealing with the Sherman on equal footing (and a few assault guns). The 111 Panzer IIIJs could also deal with the Sherman at close range.

On 6 June 1944 the Germans had a much more powerful inventory. p.111 gives it as (I have also seen these statistics in many other places):

663 Panzer V Panther long-barreled 75mm L/70 gun
102 Panzer VIE Tiger medium-barreled 88mm L/56 gun
787 other German tanks (mostly Panzer IVs with medium-barreled 75mm L/48 guns)
310 assault guns (mostly StuG III with medium-barrreled 75mm L/48 gun)
+other captured tanks (mostly useless)

The Panther and Tiger could only be dealt with effectively by the British Firefly (rare) and at close range by the Allied 76.2mm equipped units.

Abraham 05-03-06 03:12 AM

D-Day, June 6th, 1943???
 
I was inspired for this thread by
'1943 THE VICTORY THAT NEVER WAS' by John Grigg (Penguin Books). He makes a compelling argument for a victory over Nazi Germany in late 1943.
I think it is without doubt that a strong German counterstroke as near Mortain in Normandy (July 1944) or the Ardennes (Dec. 1944) was impossible in 1943. The German strenght in the West was too low from a quantitative and qualitative point of view and the distances \between the main German army, fighting in the Ukraine and near Leningrad, coupled with the terrible infrastructure in the Soviet Union, would have made quick reenforcement of the German troops in the West illusionary.
Also there were no German emergency plans to strenghten the Western Front in case of an Allied invasion, like there were in 1944.

STEED 05-05-06 11:05 AM

Re: D-Day, June 6th, 1943???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraham
I was inspired for this thread by
'1943 THE VICTORY THAT NEVER WAS' by John Grigg (Penguin Books). He makes a compelling argument for a victory over Nazi Germany in late 1943.

I saw a review on this book -

Quote:

My issue with this book is not that the information presented is in anyway floored, nor, necessarily the conclusions arrived at are wrong - it is rather that when you collect quotes to argue you point it is rather like choosing which chess pieces your opponent can start the game with and here is where I feel that Grigg's comments whereby some allied commander or other let the Germans get away with something he has failed to either consider or let the reader consider what the Nazi forces were attempting to win too.
The reviewer found the author to be to one sided. I in counted this situation years ago when I read a book and the author argued if the Germans took Malta they would have won the war. Hardly what I call a strong case, in the case of the book you read Abraham may be a good idea would be to do a spot of research and see how strong this case is for a 1943 invasion was.

Abraham 05-06-06 08:29 AM

Re: D-Day, June 6th, 1943???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED
...
I saw a review on this book -

Quote:

My issue with this book is not that the information presented is in anyway floored, nor, necessarily the conclusions arrived at are wrong - it is rather that when you collect quotes to argue you point it is rather like choosing which chess pieces your opponent can start the game with and here is where I feel that Grigg's comments whereby some allied commander or other let the Germans get away with something he has failed to either consider or let the reader consider what the Nazi forces were attempting to win too.
The reviewer found the author to be to one sided...

Well, the author tries to prove a thesis and as such is one sided. But - as the reviewer writes - the info presented and the conclusions drawn are not necessarily wrong. That's what interested be and that's why I asked forum members to give their idea's.
My opinion about the subject was by the way not solely founded upon this book.
Now I am reading the very authorative History of the Second World War by Sir Basil Liddell Hart. A very critical book about the way the war was fought. Especially by the Allied leadership.

STEED 05-06-06 11:19 AM

Good book that one Abraham, read it many years ago. :up:


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