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-   -   Breaking Oregon Militia Occupies Federal Building (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=223645)

Platapus 10-28-16 09:54 PM

It is a contentious issue that's for sure. I just have personal dislike for it as it can be abused and there is no oversight. But that's just my own opinion.

August 10-29-16 01:23 AM

I think the lack of oversight is the whole point. A free people must never give up their right to self determination and that extends to the freedom to judge their peers as they see fit.

MaDef 10-29-16 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 2443257)
It is a contentious issue that's for sure. I just have personal dislike for it as it can be abused and there is no oversight. But that's just my own opinion.

I'm not sure I understand the abuse part?

As for oversight, I think jury nullification is actually the citizens way to oversee the justice system. Case in point: the 18th amendment was repealed partially due to 60% of prosecutions involving alcohol being nullified.

Platapus 10-29-16 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaDef (Post 2443302)
I'm not sure I understand the abuse part?

As for oversight, I think jury nullification is actually the citizens way to oversee the justice system. Case in point: the 18th amendment was repealed partially due to 60% of prosecutions involving alcohol being nullified.

A fair question.

When most people think of jury nullification, it is in the context of the jury acquitting a defendant who is technically guilty of violating the law, but the jury feels that the law is either unjust or the law is being applied unfairly in this case. That's all well and good and many think it is a noble cause. But that is only one side of Jury Nullification.

Jury Nullification can also be represented when the jury convicts a defendant who is technically not guilty of violating the law, but the jury thinks the defendant is "getting off on a technicality" or the jury feels that an example needs to be made of the defendant.

Consider this example: you are on trial for shooting an intruder and your claim is self defense. Suppose the jury feels that there have been too many instances of people shooting people and claiming self defense and that "something has to be done about it" and chose to use you as an example and votes to convict. That is also a form of jury nullification, albeit a less common form.

It is commonly stated that jury nullification as a venue of sending a message to the judiciary or the prosecution about potentially unjust laws. However, this is only true if the judiciary or the prosecution knows the reason for the acquittal/conviction. A jury does not render their verdict by stating "your honor, we find the defendant not guilty because we are invoking our right of jury nullification". No. The jury renders their verdict by stating "we find the defendant not guilty".

The judiciary and prosecution does not know if the jury means

1. That the defendant is truly not guilty
2. That the prosecution was unsuccessful in proving the guilt of the defendant
3. That the jury feels that the law is unjust
4. That the jury feels that the law is being applied unfairly

Since the rational of the jury is not questioned, there is no message that can be used to change laws. Petitioning the legislation would be a better way of getting laws changed.

Then there is the lack of oversight. There is a real risk of discrimination in the decision of jury nullification. A jury may decide to acquit a white woman by invoking jury nullification, but another jury may convict a black man for the very same crime.

How can the judiciary ensure that citizens are treated fairly if juries have the uncontrolled and unsupervised ability to, at their whim, selectively apply the same law to different people.

The whole purpose of law is that all the citizens know what to do and not do.

How can a jury of laypeople determine if a law is unjust? What you are getting are some people's opinion whether a law is unjust, which is not the same thing as the law actually being unjust.

A law really can't be unjust if it is considered unjust in one situation but considered just in other situations.

If a law is unjust, the law needs to be changed, not arbitrarily nullified.
If the law is just but being implemented unfairly, there is the appeal process.

In theory, jury nullification sounds like a great idea. But the reality does not sound good in my opinion. Allowing 12 randomly selected people to decide (emotionally?) to selectively apply the law, to me, is a bad idea.

Torplexed 10-29-16 01:48 PM

I always thought the conspiracy charge was a stretch but how can they possibly be found not guilty of the weapons charges when there is hours of video footage of them toting guns on federal property? :hmmm:

Platapus 10-29-16 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2443351)
I always thought the conspiracy charge was a stretch but how can they possibly be found not guilty of the weapons charges when there is hours of video footage of them toting guns on federal property? :hmmm:

Two words which we have already discussed. :(

MaDef 10-29-16 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed (Post 2443351)
I always thought the conspiracy charge was a stretch but how can they possibly be found not guilty of the weapons charges when there is hours of video footage of them toting guns on federal property? :hmmm:

Damn that pesky second amendment.

If you want to know why this kind of thing happens, look at a map sometime, the Federal Gov, owns 75-80% of the land between the Eastern slope of the Rockies and the Pacific Ocean, including mineral, water & grazing rights. The Guys that make the rules live 2500 miles to the east of that land. Is the issue now starting to come into focus a little?

Takeda Shingen 10-29-16 03:24 PM

Imagine if they had been unarmed Native Americans instead of heavily armed white men. They'd probably be dead.

Oberon 10-29-16 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Bears (Post 2443371)
Imagine if they had been unarmed Native Americans instead of heavily armed white men. They'd probably be dead.

There'd have been at least ten Abrams, four Apaches (and not the kind that they'd be used to) and a couple of hundred heavily armed infantry surrounding the place. Easily. :yeah:

Rockstar 10-29-16 05:22 PM

Granted I don't know much of the particulars concerning this case. But privately owned firearms are allowed in the National Parks just not in the buildings

yubba 10-29-16 06:28 PM

Funny thing the government didn't want to build the Keystone pipeline,,, apparently there wasn't enough Indians in the way.

August 10-29-16 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Two Bears (Post 2443371)
Imagine if they had been unarmed Native Americans instead of heavily armed white men. They'd probably be dead.

http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/up...7434593681.jpg

August 11-07-16 01:41 PM

So apparently this was not a case of jury nullification (sorry Platapus! :)) but rather the governments use of agent provocateurs.

Quote:

The discovery that Killman was an FBI informant hit just before the surprising outcome of the trial of seven refuge occupiers. The revelation may have sounded the death knell for a struggling prosecution, now faced with more questions about how informants may have influenced the case.
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...ml#incart_2box

August 06-30-17 12:30 PM

Indictment handed down.

Quote:

FBI Agent Charged With Lying About His Role In Shooting An Activist During Oregon Wildlife Standoff

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defau.../picture-5.jpg
by Tyler Durden
Jun 29, 2017 12:42 PM


0
SHARES



A grand jury in Portland, Oregon has charged FBI Agent W Joseph Astarita with three counts of making false statements, alleging that he lied when he claimed he did not fire his weapon during the attempted arrest of LaVoy Finicum, a key figure in the Oregon militia standoff at the Malheur national wildlife refuge in 2016.
Astarita, who pleaded not guilty in federal court in Portland, was assigned to arrest the leaders of the Oregon standoff in January 2016 when Finicum drove off the road and into a snowbank, before attempting to flee on foot. During the ensuing confrontation, some of which was captured on film, Oregon state police officers shot and killed Finicum, an Arizona rancher, who police say was reaching for his gun. Police later said the shooting was “justified”.
Here is the press release from the United States Attorney's Office:


The indictment alleges that Astarita knowingly and willfully made false statements to FBI Supervisory Special Agents, knowing that the statements were false and material to the FBI’s decision not to investigate the propriety of an agent-involved shooting. Specifically, Astarita falsely stated he had not fired his weapon during the attempted arrest of Mr. Finicum when he knew he had in fact fired his weapon. Astarita also knowingly engaged in misleading conduct toward Oregon State Police officers by failing to disclose that he had fired two rounds during the attempted arrest.

Astarita was arraigned on June 28, 2017, in Portland. He entered pleas of not guilty to each county and was released pending future appearances.

An indictment is only an accusation of a crime, and a defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
For those who missed it, a portion of Finicum's confrontation with police was caught on film and clearly shows that the first shots were fired while his hands were up in the air...'ironically', no pop stars made a "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" video after this incident.


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