It's not just counter-terrorism surveillance that by inbuilt feature assumes everybody guilty as long as not proven innocent. German media report that the NSA has infiltrated in very big style foreign offices of all EU states in America by installing bugs, hacking telephone networks and computer networks, and trying to overhear as much as is being told behind locked doors in diplomatic meetings. Counter terrorism has nothing to do with it. What the NSA does is simply total and unlimited espionage and spying on proclaimed "allied friends". German media says they also managed to infiltrate diplomatic and government offices of EU states not only in America, but in their European home nations as well. Brussel EU headquarters are overheard and monitored on every level of computer and telephone communication.

It's all about security, and counter terrorism. Yeah, sure.

If the above is true then I'd certainly consider that to be most worrying :hmmm:

Would it really be that big a surprise? Politics knows neither morals nor friends. That is just two words that are swung like wands to manipulate the sentiments of the crowds.

Eavesdropping, spying (call it what you will) on potential adversaries is one thing but doing so on long standing allies is something totally different.

It's all about control.

One group of people controls another group of people - for their own advantage.

This may be an economical, psychological, military, security or whatever advantage.
Including the advantage of an easy living for a few in contrast to the servitude of the majority.

Any accumulation of property leads to more influence, more power, more control.
More money - more power - more control over who will have more money, more power and more control.

This works with intelligence too:
the accumulation of the property "knowledge" or "information" results in more power and more control.

If I am able to control you, your day, your perception, your motivation you are slave to my mind.

This is a very interesting discussion you have and it's with interest I follow it.

Some of you say he's a spy and guilty according to the law

Some of you call him a patriot and a hero

But Skybird is the person who's the one that has said the most interesting and it's true

His(Snowden) action has been in vain! Sad to say

Do you really thing, that they(NSA, CIA a.s.o) are going to stop now that they have been revealed?

Markus

certainly as an enemy to their power.
or the beginning of a possibly potential group of people removing said power.

you folks really need to wake up...

Not until some physical actiion has been taken.

The Spies are not only controlling the NSA and similar agencies.
they also control the
-Police Top levels (we will confront you in the streets)
-Armed Forces top levels (we will bolster the Police by sending the national guard) (we will hunt you down worldwide by air, sea, land, anytime, anyplace)
-Government levels top to very bottom (we will stricten rules and give less handouts)
-Economic top levels (we will stricten working rules, prices, ship jobs overseas, where we find brainwashed slaves)


Who is still NOT under the control of the Governemnt?

Average Joe.
As has been said, that average, working class Joe...
HE is the one to take action.
And no, voting... or even Voting with your wallet is not enough.

American Spring! Syria! Turkey! Greece! Italy! they are your examples to follow.
okay maybe not Italy... they plan on bringing back that teenage f......nanana Berlusconi.

And... AND the Guillautine. with CNN and Fox and whoever... holding the camera right on it.
So yes... France shall be your example too. as much as some of yall might hate to hear that.

What action, other than voting, are you proposing?

Germany is under Constant attack bei foreign Intel services . It is about economic espionage . The Chinese launch the most attacks and infiltrations . But second, before the Russians, are the Americans.

You Brits read a lot into this illusion of yours, Special relations with the Us and all that, but you are just getting used, for the Us it is opportunistic to leave you in that state of illusionS . But in the end, You are just the American beachhead inside the EU, that is why they want you to stay in it.This, and a performing agent in NATO. Master rules . Poodle follows.

l repeat, between states, there exists neither friendship nor morals .

here, take this tar.
take thease feathers. and over there is a shed full of metal bars.

When I read it, my first thought was this:

Start an organization get lots of members make it political, when enough support start running for presidency, when elected do the change that I want to change.

I'm raised with the believe in democracy and there power of it.

Markus

the system told you it works.
you see it does not work
you try to rebuild said system using what the defective system taught you in the first place.

not innovative, not direct enough.


edit...
and the question was:
what action "OTHER THAN VOTING"
to run fgor prez... you still need some sort of voting system, hance this is outside of the acceptes possible answers.

And there you are at the root of the problem. You got raised with a belief. Well nothing hinders you to grow beyond that! To believe into electing somebody in the next votings, not only get us all stuck, but drive us deeper and deeper into the mess. Doesn't matter whom one votes for. And to call for changes just inside and by the voting mechanism guarantees only "Kadavergehorsam" meant to not put the situation and trend -deeper into the mess, that is - into question.

We democratically elect us all into bancruptcy, ruin and ultimately: slavery in a system that by then will be anything but free and democratic, but unfree, and totalitarian. The opposite of democracy is freedom.

That's the ONLY way you can make the changes without making some kind of revolution. The democracy way.

If you ain't pleased with your politics, then you have several options

Markus