some days ago, ED open on DCS:W forum a Treat with the Naval Theme.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.ph...90#post1806890

Subsims are indeed a niche market. Hopefully Ubisoft made enough money of off SH5 to maintain some interest in future development, but I am not confident that this is the case.

Like most companies, they go where the money is. I have to say it's been the mod community that kept them from sinking completely. The mod community comes up with better ideas and add-ons than the programmers who wrote the original code.

Well to be honest, modders have it pretty cozy. They don't have to spend 50% of the time meeting predefined milestones or risk cancellation, nor are they at the whim of management who may at any time force huge redesigns, replace key members of the team or demand this or that focus because marketing says so.

*COUGH*

*Cough* what?

it is also not as cozy as yo may think i think it is far from cozy knowing that some people will also never post in sub sim but only download their mods and only post when they have an issue. or when they are working on a mod and are being pestered when can "we" expect a release date or any updates for "us".
some of our excellent modders have severe OCD when it comes to the historical accuracy of some of their mods which seems to be a thankless trait for many.

Do you mod?

If so, what have you been involved with?

When I read a broad sweeping statement like yours I get to wondering the above because I can tell you now as far as GWX was concerned your most definitely incorrect.

FYI I was a modder for about a decade before I became a game developer by trade - starting out with Quake2, Half-Life at the time when mods were really synonymous with 'total conversion' and I've also modded Strike Fighters (a series that's been kept alive by modders to a far greater extent than SH in my opinion) for many years and IMO being a modder is a very cozy place.

When I mod, I can afford to take risks and since I have a day job that pays my bills I can take as much time as I want to in order to make it perfect. When I made mods for SF, I only made stuff that interested me personally, which happens to be obscure what-if designs. And I could afford to make them because I mod for me and if someone else likes it and gives it a 5 star rating that's cool. So you never have to answer to anybody.

On the commercial games I've worked on, it's always been the opposite: minimum risk, cloning what is already popular and suits making the key decisions and telling you to in effect start over from square one after crunching for weeks in order to meet a milestone or present a playable build. Or crunching for weeks on end because someone somewhere has decided that the game gets released on this specific date. Or getting laid off after said crunch :D

As a modder, you really have complete freedom to do whatever you want to and if someone pesters you about a release date you just say '2 weeks' and go about your business. Your only constraints are literally free time and how moddable your base game is.

So yes, modders have done a lot to fix the various iterations of the SH franchise, but I take issue with the somewhat irreverent-sounding attitude some display against the devs on internet forums. Yes, the games are broken on release, but it's not because they're being made by a bunch of incompetents and need the modders to step in and show how it's done. They're broken because there were factors outside the devs' control and they had to compromise or face cancellation or layoffs.

Most interesting (and I'm happy taking your word) because knowing a few people in the business they have told of similar experiences.

One small difference irl can sometimes be as a member of such a large community as we have here and informing people of WIP (not my decision as I wasn't the project manager) and in so doing building up peoples expectations which in itself can be counter productive because of the self induced build up of pressure....but I guess your aware of that.

BTW...I really enjoyed Quake2.

I agree about building up people's expectations and how that can induce pressure which is unfortunate because I believe one shouldn't be feeling pressure doing what is essentially a hobby.

It's not the first time that I read stories about modders becoming game developers (the hobby becomes a job). Sort of career like in other fields... involves stress management, like in other fields, I guess.
I don't know, but I was involved in a major IT project lately together with other 10 people : what i could notice is that apparently on every idea, there were, most of the times, 10 different ways to go (11) ...

Interesting discussion !

OK, I remembered my password.

Reading this thread reminded me how I was involved with Dr Sid and a few others to make a community sub sim. Started out with the basic world, getting the physics right and a few decent 3d models to play with.

The idea was to make a Sub Command / Dangerous Waters type sim. It failed due to real life, as you can see I hardly post here anymore, too busy with family.

I'd love to see a Sub Command type sim but without the flaws. IE a dynamic scenario that was less scripted, ie wouldn't play out the same way if you played it over and over, better AI etc. I like Dangerous Waters but in the end I think it lost focus, tried to do too many things in one package.

As for being a modder. Yes sometimes the expectations are high, people asking when the next sub will be ready, when such a function will be done, and then getting crucified if it doesn't meet expectations or doesn't work as they thought it would. I've been involved in my fair share of disagreements, being just as quilty of going off on one.

I also wouldn't like a full systems sim. I'm happy enough to tell my sub which direction and what depth I want it to go. I don't want to go to the point of fiddling with my trim tanks or running up the reactor. Though better damage control would be good.

Anyway I'd love to see a good community subsim, or even a commercial one but I don't think it's going to happen.

Hello Xabbarus.
Nice to see you again :)

First, artificial intelligence is not yet as far as to replace human brain, but getting closer and closer.

I dislike to read complaints "of any kind" about Sub Command or Dangerous Waters, as by release they were playable at a great "extent", at least if you compare it to the SH series where after two years I didnt even manage to install the game (SH5).

Sub Command was patched until very stable and even Dangerous Waters came out unbelivably stable at launch. The modders failed I am sorry, in the name of more realism, playability has suffered too much.

I have been an enemy of the modding trend on DW very soon, for at least two reasons:
- the objective to make a more realistic DW is stupid (sorry).
- the release rate of updates has been too frequent.

The disaster is just done if SA doesnt get back.

hi XabbaRus,

what about the 'Danger From The Deep' group ?
this project was so lovely progressing and the team had made a very impressive work so far.
but it ended up without any support from modders. and when i am saying modders i mean programmers and technicians and not the 'eye candies' modders(these can step in at the end and polish the whole thing).
i believe that we will see a real sim for subs at future when some serious programmers and mechanics steps in ('Danger From The Deep' was one step for achieving it if some serious programmers and mechanics joined them)

also, i read somewhere that the DCS may expand their sim(what a great team for plane sim!) to other vehicles too (maybe subs will find their way in)

or ,...long shot.....lets wish the sonalysts to strike back !

i completely agree with all you said Nexus7:yep:

Sub Command , Dangerous Waters (and their 'mother' 688i) are the best subsim(even unmodded) we have... even today