:sign_yeah:
I don't mind about Islam itself. I do mind about the fact that most muslims here do not want to confirm to European culture. If you move to another country, you must adapt to it.
If they come here, they can believe what they want. But they must adapt to our establishment, and not demand of us natives to adapt to theirs.

Which is why the plans for the mosque were met with a considerable amount of resistance from the neighbourhood. We don't want minarets, we don't want calls of prayers. And we certainly don't want all parking spots in the neighbourhood to be taken by mosque goers while there's not enough room now already.

I don't see how minarets or calls to prayer go against culture, though. In this context, by "culture" I mean moral values, social norms. I am not talking about architecture, music or visual arts. Sure, a mosque or minaret is going to stand out in a non-Muslim environment at first, but only because it's different. Minarets aren't meant for you, and you're not forced to go. And so they do not interfere with your life unless you let it. Sure, we are more used to church bells than Islamic calls to prayer, but this is purely a cosmetic difference, and only a question of familiarity.

I see culture as more than just moral values and norms. I see culture as the whole collection of things that differentiates one people from another. For example, that differentiates us Dutchmen from you Norwegians. While our values and norms are probably pretty similar, our cultures still differ. It's because we've got other architecture, other food, another history, other music, you name it. All these things, both material and immaterial in nature, define a culture.

It very well is a question of familiarity, but that is simply because culture in itself is a question of familiarity.

Well, in that sort of context I do, too, which is one of the things I enjoy about going abroad, to experience different cultures in the sense you are talking about. And naturally I have a sense of what is "Norwegian" culture in this respect, too. But this is pure romanticism, and of no actual consequence beyond that. And this aspect of culture, too, must inevitably change. Neither of our countries have the same cultural flavours they did 100 or even 50 years ago, and it would be an unhealthy sign if they did. And the previous generations would no more like to live in our society than we would like to live in any future society.

Cultural "flavour" is something that gradually changes with each generation, and changes quite a bit with immigration. This is neither dangerous nor even lamentable. I'm quite the nostalgic myself, and am sad to see things of my childhood change. My late grandparents' house has been demolished and a new house is in its place, and another house where the barn was. My father recently sold half of the real estate their house is on, and with it a great, big willow tree as well as several berry bushes (red currant, black currant, raspberries, gooseberries...). All gone, now, and a new house in their place. My childhood neighbourhood looks radically different from when I grew up, but although it makes me sad I can't say that it's bad. It's simply change.

Same thing with mosques, minarets and the like. There is no way you can say that it's bad change, it's simply change you personally don't like.

that is disgusting.(what they did) btw your dad is my hero

Slightly off topic but what does the Dutch flag stand for? What is the symbolism? Like the US flag represents the 13 original colonies and the 50 current states, or the UK flag represents the union of England, Scotland and Ireland. But what does the Dutch flag symbolize?

Wikipedia didn't say anything on this so I hope some of our Dutch subsimmers could fill me in.

I wouldn't know what the three stripes stand for specifically, but a nation's flag will in any event stand for the nation itself and the values of its people.

Jeebus.....don't forget Wales :o

Wouldn't want to upset the noodle miners now, would we. :DL

http://media.worldflags101.com/i/flags/netherlands.gif

The red stripe which was originally orange, along with the white and blue stripes, are based on the heraldic colors (coat of arms) of Prince William of Orange, who led the fight for Dutch independence.

Don't let it rest!
 

This should be a front-page story in the papers. You should make sure that all of Netherlands, the UN, the world know what happened.

If they are suitably embarassed, this might not happen again. Your Father deserves an official apology.

Write it up on a brochure and put it in the neighbourhood mailboxes, on posts, everywhere.

The Dutch people fought for that flag and should do so again! :nope: :nope: :nope:

Ah, I see. I guess the three stripes were easier to draw than the heraldry, then. :O:

Ah so it is just a extension of the coat of arms and has no deeper significance. I would say that the lack of a deeper significance is interesting in of its self, and it shows how highly regarded Prince William of Orange is in the Netherlands. :hmmm:

Wales is not represented on the Union Jack. The Welsh flag is a Red dragon. :yep:

Why the change from orange to red?

Hmm, a quick search suggests the Orange does indeed stand for the Orange family, the white stands for the government, and blue for the Nassau duchy. It doesn't seem to be "just" an extension of the coat of arms.

That said, William of Orange is indeed deeply respected here. He is the founder of our country after all.
It's also interesting to note that the Netherlands were founded as a republic of independent states (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands), much like the USA. Only after Napoleon was defeated in 1815 (after he conquered our country in 1795) did we become a monarchy.
Also see the first lines of our anthem:
Wilhelmus van Nassouwe ben ik van Duitsen bloed, den vaderland getrouwe blijf ik tot in den dood. Een prinse van Oranje ben ik, vrij onverveerd, den Koning van Hispanje heb ik altijd geëerd.
(William of Nassau am I from German blood, loyal to the fatherland I will remain until death. A prince of Orange am I, rather undaunted, the King of Spain I have always honoured.)

Why the orange changed to red is not entirely clear. It might be because of a lack of orange pigments, it might be for better visibility or for any of a number of reasons.

Culture does change through time. These changes have always been relatively slow, up until the industrial revolution. But even in that time period, I dare say our culture did evolve on its own and was often not directly influenced by other cultures (foreign technology, surely, but not cultures). Our "modern" culture (19th century onwards) still differs very much from other cultures, even though there has been extensive contact with many foreign cultures throughout the years.

And I truly believe that, should immigration be limited to a minimum, our culture will continue to differ from other western European cultures.

But a house been broken down or a tree cut isn't a change in culture. It's very understandable that it makes you sad, but for me it's a quite different change. The destruction of your childhood memories does not change your identity as a Norwegian.
If you do or don't mind these changes is indeed a personal matter I guess.

Personally I really love cultural differences, if I'm in another country I always try to soak up as much of the local culture as I can. I always want to try the local dishes, no matter how many creepy disgusting organ meat it contains. I admire the local architecture. I observe the local way of life. I listen to the language.
Wouldn't it be a terrible shame if this all is gone? If no matter what country you go to, you see minarets, you eat halal food, you hear Arabic speech?

I don't think it will go that far, eventually someone will interfere, but as of now, that's what we're heading.
It isn't a question of Islam per se, I know muslims that are perfectly integrated into Dutch society, and of which you wouldn't even know they were immigrants, if not for their looks. But in private, they are very well muslims.
Similarly, I also know non-muslims that completely did not integrate into our society and behave like they would do in their home country. They often do not even speak Dutch.
I prefer the first category by far.

BTW, interesting discussion IMO:up: