Simple isn't it , either you support torture or you don't , redefining certin forms of torture to fit with your definition of torture rather than the established definition so as to make your view less reprehensible is attempting to redefine torture .so as to make your views less repellant to people
Your problem is that your position is impossible to defend

Well sir, I'm sorry you get sick when I talk of 9/11. Sorry, this is what started it all. Shall I talk of the daily traffic jams? Yes, Pelosi is lying, if Bush used these techniques he is trouble. Same with anyone involved. I have not supported anyone. Please find where I have. However, reading your diatribe I'm wondering if finding another thread to visit and enjoy might be in order for you.

Let's say the Bloods catch a Crips gang member on their turf. The Bloods proceed to tie him up, smack him around and pour water in his nose and mouth. The cops bust in just as this Crips member is being waterboarded for the 180th time.

Are the cops going to say he wasn't tortured? What's the DA's reaction going to be? How is it going to be reported in the news? Are they going to say that the Crip didn't have his fingernails pulled out or he wasn't cut up and killed so it wasn't torture? Hell no, they're going to say he was tortured. There's no moral equivalence here. Torture is torture is torture. Just because you've changed the definition for yourself doesn't mean the definition has been changed.

Mookie, Aramike I see you are from the US. Tribesman, not sure were you hale from but going after one another is not what the thread is about. I think all involved would be more concerned with how this is being handled, who knew what and why nothing was done in 2003. This to me is really the problem not who here approves or disapproves of torture.

Eire = Ireland, I believe.

Why nothing was done is because certain politicians and lawyers presented an arguement that raised questions , those questions have since been shown to be bollox. In the interim action was taken on the basis of those questions even though they were bollox and have since been shown to be obviously bollox .

Since even the most rudimentary examination of those questions posed would have shown them to be farcical it is rather astounding that anyone signed off on them . In which case the only course is to put all those concerned in the process on trial for their actions.
Then again tht doesn't address those that still put out the thoroughly debunked arguements put out by the last administration , the only civilisd address to those people would be "please keep up to date you muppets you have been proved wrong years ago"

Wins the thread ! :woot:


Something that I find curious is the fact that the 'enhanced interrigations' did produce results and prevented an attack on Los Angelis. But that gets covered up in all the noise.

Well, isn't it always like that when leftists win the race?
People fall for their fairy tales, unrealistic, "good-sounding" and "well-meaning" approaches which is all they build their campaign on, and then when they actually get into power, shortly after there is a rude awakening which includes more taxes to pay and plenty of other **** for everybody, including those who were not on drugs when they went voting.

At least that usually happens in Germany. See, over here even the conservatives are what you would call left. Our "conservatives" are more left than your democrats (though with the Big O in power now I'm not so sure anymore), and our left are what you would call downright commies. They found out that winning elections is much easier when you talk bull, something left politicians are good in, so our conservatives adopted that approach. You know, we have a magic word here in this country, and unfortunately it is written into our "constitution". It is "Social Market Economy". "Soziale Marktwirtschaft". In other words, it is "Capitalism, BUT". And that "BUT" is used as an excuse for whatever stupid crap the left comes up with. And the "conservatives" are too coward to confront them on the issue of "Soziale Gerechtigkeit" ("social fairness"), and the only other party which might truely be in favor of a sound free market economy never gains more than 18%. Because in Germany, people do not believe in the "I can become what I want" approach, but rather "The evil rich, the decadent middle class, and the holy poor". And granted, with our tax / "social contribution" burden for the "normal citizen" and the bureaucratic approach we have to EVERYTHING, you can't really hold it against them when they feel they are stuck, because in the end they really are. And I guess it is too much to ask that they realize this situation however is brought about by their vote for those who run their campaign on fairy tales.

Granted, all the above might be hard for you to understand as an American, used to the art of common sense. But I'm positive that this will soon change now that the "Messiah" has arrived in America, too. It is indeed eerie to see how many of his ideas are in congruence with what OUR LEFT says (remember, where you Americans would rather think "commie"). And it is even more eerie to see many Americans to fall for just that, and see him as some kind of Messiah exactly because of that crap.
This is how you end up in a state that taxes you to death, takes around 50% of what you cost your employer away from you (income tax, "social contributions", including "public pension" that these days will amount to nothing to live off, so you have to take out private insurance in addition, and additionally there will be the VAT and a whole host of other taxes like yearly taxes on using a car etc.) and gets involved in economy by saving the asses of big century old companies (because of fear of job losses and thus political opinions) while taxing INTO OBLIVION small and middle-sized enterprises who *together* provide THE MOST JOBS but will never MAKE IT INTO THE HEADLINES WHEN THEY GO DOWN one after another - or do not even open, which is a hidden destruction of jobs.

F*ck, here I thought, "When this place here hits rock-bottom and I'm getting to tired of this crap, I'll go to the US." Now with the "Messiah" in power over there, too, and more and more of you formerly freedom loving people making yourselves whores of the state by making yourself financially dependent on it by your vote, just as we did and do, I'm not so sure any more if that would make ANY sense after all.

Damn. America is too much of a genuine, honest and - if I may - divine effort to fall for stupid fantasy **** spewed from the mouth of politicians. Remember, those ****ers were the reasons why you left Europe behind *in the first place*. For the love of God, please don't make it Europe Second Edition. Please don't. Don't.

BTW, I realize now, I'm the off-topic Superman here in this thread. Sorry.
Though maybe in reality this thread is about great sounding ideas, wishfull thinking and cosy promises vs. what matters and is happening in the real world. Then it might not be so off-topic after all.

Not really, the thread went south anyway. I liked your post. If you see my last, this thread should really concern itself with what the government is doing on the one hand and not doing on the other hand. Pelosi has publically stated the CIA lied to her and Congress. That is some strong stuff and very heady. This could be ruinous for her(no big deal) and the Democrats. If the CIA provides tapes or documents showing she knew this waterboarding deal, resigning is her only option. Fantasyland is now over. The government will be suspect from here on out.

Well, yes, you're right. That was the point which made me start off with my opinion above after all.

I find it astonishing this whole thing. Our government hiding the truths then said truths brought to light for 'transperancy' only to find the hands in the cookie jar were many. Some of these hands a certain leader would have hoped were not in that jar. This certain leaders agenda today was completely overshadowed by this. In fact, he was non-existant today. With that in mind one should realize the gravity of this revelation. Really, she is in deep dodo if the CIA provides proof positive she knew. Stating that the CIA lied to her and Congress...treason perhaps?

[QUOTE][ The government will be suspect from here on out. /QUOTE]
Governments are always suspect .
Did you think this pesent one has only just become suspect and was squeaky clean since inaugertation?
Or did you think that previous governmens were not suspect?

[quote=Tribesman;1101332]Perhaps you misunderstood or I was not complete in my thought...since Obama was elected everyone was 'feel good', a new sun on the horizon, a new day, we feel refreshed, all will be well, he has risen yadda yadda yadda....an image Obama was attempting and successfully accomplished. He overcame the staff that did not pay taxes and other assorted nonsense. The image was still good until today. This image is now tarnished and tarnished badly. So those that followed like a herd of sheep into the light will have the fantasy dispelled. Certainly the previous administrations as all administrations are suspect. This one had it's own flavor and it was sweet to a lot....it just turned sour. It is clearly seen the government is self serving. Pelosi would say anything to get out of this and that was witnessed today. Honestly, I do not think we will see the truth unless the CIA who has been fingered needs to really clear the air and keep it's image clear...I suspect that might happen. Is it easier to have one person take the fall or an entire entity that the world is supposed to trust. After all it is the Central Intelligence Agency.

I am curious Warhawk , I thought the "feelgood" factor was simply that he couldn't be as much of a ***** as Bush was and the only ones in the main really pushing the "he's perfect" crap were certain bloggers who were upset with the election result and invented a position that they could attack.
As for the recent events , like blocking the release of photos and videos , the fruitcakes are attacking him for doing it , yet supporting him for doing it . The reason given being that it would be bad for America , which is the same reason they objected to the earlier releases of photos.
So reaslly there ar ethree levels of hypocracy in play here , that of the old administration , that of the new administration , and that of the blind supporters of either .