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-   -   Why Atheism Is Morally Bankrupt - A thought since we are celebrating Christs birth... (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=145878)

Stealth Hunter 12-26-08 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltysplash
Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving...
...and revolving at 900 miles an hour
That's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned...
a sun that is the source of all our power
The sun, and you and me, and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral-arm, at 40,000 miles an hour...
Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred-billion stars
It's a hundred-thousand light-years side to side
It bulges in the middle, 16-thousand light years thick
but out by us it's just 3-thousand light years wide
We're 30-thousand light years from galactic central point
we go round every two-hundred-million years
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know
12-million miles-a-minute, and that's the fastest speed there is
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space
'cos there's bugger-all down here on Earth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcTHBOjnUss

I love that song.

Takeda Shingen 12-26-08 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August
Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker
I think he meant the part about being stapled to a telephone pole:D


Technically that wasn't what killed him. It was that spear jab to the heart.

I believe that asphyxiation was the primary cause of death for the crucified.

Letum 12-26-08 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen
Quote:

Originally Posted by August
Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital_Trucker
I think he meant the part about being stapled to a telephone pole:D

Technically that wasn't what killed him. It was that spear jab to the heart.

I believe that asphyxiation was the primary cause of death for the crucified.

Correct. Although because of the length of time that would take, I imagine mercy killings where common.

Frame57 12-26-08 10:29 AM

The concept of the Romans breaking the legs were to speed up death. Crucifixion causes respiratory/Cardiac failure. The lung will fill will fluid as this occurs slowly. This is why when the lung was punctured "water" flowed out.

Aramike 12-26-08 01:30 PM

This thread has taken an odd, morbid direction... :|\\

Sailor Steve 12-26-08 01:57 PM

Okay, since Subman seems to be intent on flaunting opinion as fact and belief as truth, and laughing at anyone who disagrees; and this has devolved into yet another "I'm right and you're stupid" religious argument, I'm going to try to stick with the article itself, and the circular reasoning in flawed logic therein.

Quote:

If you walk around Washington, D.C., on a regular basis, youre likely to see some rather peculiar posters. But you wont see any more peculiar than the ads put out by the American Humanist Association. Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness sake, say the signs, in Christmas-colored red and green.

Sounds great, doesnt it? Just be good for goodness sake. You dont need some Big Man in the Sky telling you what to do. You can be a wonderful person simply by doing the right thing.
Not a bad start, since the author is intent on proving his thesis that all morals stem from God, and without a guiding hand we have no free will or moral capability.

Quote:

Theres only one problem: without God, there can be no moral choice. Without God, there is no capacity for free will.
A good statement, but made from belief, and as yet without substantiation. But a thesis has to begin somewhere.

Quote:

Thats because a Godless world is a soulless world.
Says the believer. But he already believes. This is a statement of 'fact', but there are as yet no facts to support it. It's merely belief, stated as absolute. But it's just the beginning, so let's move on.

Quote:

Virtually all faiths hold that God endows human beings with the unique ability to choose their actions -- the ability to transcend biology and environment in order to do good. Transcending biology and our environment requires a higher power -- a spark of the supernatural. As philosopher Rene Descartes, put it, Although I possess a body with which I am very intimately conjoined [my soul] is entirely and absolutely distinct from my body and can exist without it.
And now we have a problem. So pretty much all faiths believe in free will, and we can't concieve of anything greater than ourselves unless that something actually exists? We don't know that. We can imagine all kinds of things, and free will versus predestination has been an ongoing argument among scholars of all faiths since there have been faiths. And quoting Decartes is nice, but doesn't prove anything, since later philosophers and scholars have alternately agreed with him and claimed that his reasoning was flawed on that point (with which I agree, by the way). It becomes a case of "my philosopher can beat up your philosopher", which can be fun but in both cases is still nothing more than opinion.

Quote:

Gilbert Pyle, the atheistic philosopher, derogatorily labeled the idea of soul/body dualism, the ghost in the machine. Nonetheless, our entire legal and moral system is based on the ghost in the machine -- the presupposition that we can choose to do otherwise. We can only condemn or praise individuals if they are responsible for their actions. We dont jail squirrels for garden theft or dogs for assaulting cats -- they arent responsible for their actions. But we routinely lock up kleptomaniacs and violent felons.
How exactly is our legal system based on "The Ghost in the Machine"? Again, a statement out of nowhere, with no backing. I read the Ten Commandments, and I read Mosaic Law in the Bible, and I find almost nothing in common with English Common Law, from which American law derives. We hold people responsible for their actions, and we create law to protect ourselves from each other. How exactly does any of that have to do with the existence - or not - of a separate soul.

A brief aside here: It could be (and has been) argued that the concept of a soul derives from our awareness of our mortality, and desire not to have it end when we die. If we go on, exactly what part of it is it that does exist after our bodies stop? Hence you must have a soul, or else it doesn't work, and the need for a soul does not necessarily equate with the existence of one.

Quote:

Its not only our criminal justice system that presupposes a Creator. Its our entire notion of freedom and equality. We hold these truths to be self-evident, wrote Thomas Jefferson, supposed atheist, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Human equality must spring from a Creator, because the presence of a soul is all that makes man human and equal. Biology suggests inherent inequality -- who would call Arnold Schwarzenegger and Stephen Hawking equal in any way? Biology suggests the sort of Hegelian social Darwinism embraced by totalitarian dictators, not the principles of equality articulated by the Founding Fathers.
Again he states flatly that our criminal justice system presupposes a creator, with no other evidence that that he believes it to be so. He then calls Jefferson a "supposed atheist". Actually Jefferson's writings indicate that he certainly believed in a God, and that he had a soul that would live on after he was gone. What the author doesn't tell you, though, is that Jefferson absolutely did not believe that Jesus Christ was that God 'come in the flesh'. He more than once called Jesus "the greatest human teacher" and even wrote his own 'Bible', in which he kept the teachings but dismissed any miraculous happenings as made up by his followers. It was the Christian leaders of his own time who labelled Jefferson an 'atheist'.

Quote:

Without a soul, freedom too is impossible -- we are all slaves to our biology. According to atheists, human beings are intensely complex machines. Our actions are determined by our genetics and our environment. According to atheists, if we could somehow determine all the constituent material parts of the universe, we would be able to predict all human action, down to the exact moment at which Vice President-elect Joe Biden will pick his nose. Freedom is generically defined as the power to determine action without restraint (Random House). But if action without restraint is impossible, how can we fight for freedom?
And yet again, a statement without backing. How exactly is freedom impossible without a soul? No explanation, and no backing. In the end, opinion is given as the proof of argument, and opinion is no proof at all.

Quote:

If there is no God, there is no freedom to choose. If there is no freedom to choose, there is no good or evil. There is merely action and inaction. There is no way to be good for goodness sake -- that would require an act of voluntary will far beyond human capacity.
More of the same. How does he come to this conclusion? "I believe it, therefore it is so!" Who says it would require an 'act of voluntary will far beyond human capacity."? He does, and he expects everyone to take his word for it. It may be true, or it may not, and he doesn't know for sure any more than I do. He only makes the claim, with not real substantiation.

Quote:

Atheists simply gloss over this point. The American Humanist Association states on its website, whybelieveinagod.org, We can have ethics and values based on our built-in drives toward a moral life. Without a soul, this is wishful thinking of the highest order. Since when does biology dictate a moral drive? If it did, wouldnt man always get more rather than less moral -- wouldnt history be a long upward climb? What about the murderers, rapists, child molesters and genocidal dictators? Are they all ignoring that built-in drive toward a moral life?
And now he calls morality without the soul "wishfull thinking". And with what evidence. Again it's a case of "I'm right and you're stupid", with no backing other than his own statement that it's so.

All speculation, advertised as 'fact'.

Bewolf 12-26-08 06:57 PM

Nice post, Sailor Steve. And one I completly agree upon. What this article once again shows, is that religious people have a problem using their brains. They rather follow the teaching of others instead of coming to their own conclusions. The same applies to radical followers of any other ideology, be it communism, capitalism, feudalism, absolutism and all the other "isms" out there. All these are basics thoughts laid out by ppl like you and me, philosophical guidelines of how to create a better society in their mind. There is nothing mysterious about it, and nothing of greater wisdom anybody else could come up with by using the brain.

Ignorant folks follow these guidelines without questioning, to a degree it is bordering or even embracing fanatism. More open folks question "all" of these guidlines, use those parts they come to the conclusion making sense, and dismiss those that they think, or already made the expirience, do not work.

That subman posted this text actually expecting and demanding debate over nothing but hot air already shows a mindset that is fixated not on reasoning and finding the truth, but on the opposite, defending a truth served to ppl alive thousands of years ago.

Aramike 12-26-08 07:09 PM

Quote:

What this article once again shows, is that religious people have a problem using their brains. They rather follow the teaching og others instead of coming to their own conclusions.
I would tend to say the same thing about anyone using such a broad statement.

That article shows that the author is clearly biased and self-supporting.

"Following the teaching of others" doesn't display a lack of independent thought. I, for one, am a fan of Einstein. Does agreeing with relativity mean that I'm not using my brain?

Jesse Jackson writes self-supporting nonsense all the time. Does that mean that all black people are as shallow as he is?

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a bad thing just because it originates in religion. Nor is it morally superior because of that same fact. There's far more to it.

There are plenty of extremely intelligent, religious people out there. The difference between many of them and the author is that they simply don't feel the need to try to justify their faith. Why should they? They don't owe you or anyone else an explanation.

For people like me, the origins of the universe and life itself are great, thought-provoking questions I find drawn to. For others, they simply just don't care that much and decide to go with God-did-it. Then they go on to use their brains in economics, medicine, phlisophy, etc.

Again, I would suggest that broadly labelling a belief system is the result of limited intellectual inquiry.

Wolfehunter 12-26-08 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf
Nice post, Sailor Steve. And one I completly agree upon. What this article once again shows, is that religious people have a problem using their brains. They rather follow the teaching of others instead of coming to their own conclusions. The same applies to radical followers of any other ideology, be it communism, capitalism, feudalism, absolutism and all the other "isms" out there. All these are basics thoughts laid out by ppl like you and me, philosophical guidelines of how to create a better society in their mind. There is nothing mysterious about it, and nothing of greater wisdom anybody else could come up with by using the brain.

Ignorant folks follow these guidelines without questioning, to a degree it is bordering or even embracing fanatism. More open folks question "all" of these guidlines, use those parts they come to the conclusion making sense, and dismiss those that they think, or already made the expirience, do not work.

That subman posted this text actually expecting and demanding debate over nothing but hot air already shows a mindset that is fixated not on reasoning and finding the truth, but on the opposite, defending a truth served to ppl alive thousands of years ago.

Their is a word for it... Common sense. Nothing more or less.

Stealth Hunter 12-27-08 03:01 AM

Alack, so few possess it and so many fool themselves into the delusion that they do.

Aramike 12-27-08 03:47 AM

"Common sense" is a misnomer. Common it is not.

Skybird 12-27-08 05:49 AM

Sailor Steve, Bewulf,

good posts, I agree.

Stealth Hunter 12-27-08 06:18 AM

I got to thinking back to Monty Python, and I managed to dig up this goodie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaOR...ture=rec-HM-r2

:rotfl:

IEHOVA! IEHOVA!

Diopos 12-27-08 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter
I got to thinking back to Monty Python, and I managed to dig up this goodie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaOR...ture=rec-HM-r2

:rotfl:

IEHOVA! IEHOVA!

Excellent source! :yep:
:up:

Bewolf 12-27-08 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike
Quote:

What this article once again shows, is that religious people have a problem using their brains. They rather follow the teaching og others instead of coming to their own conclusions.
I would tend to say the same thing about anyone using such a broad statement.

That article shows that the author is clearly biased and self-supporting.

"Following the teaching of others" doesn't display a lack of independent thought. I, for one, am a fan of Einstein. Does agreeing with relativity mean that I'm not using my brain?

Jesse Jackson writes self-supporting nonsense all the time. Does that mean that all black people are as shallow as he is?

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a bad thing just because it originates in religion. Nor is it morally superior because of that same fact. There's far more to it.

There are plenty of extremely intelligent, religious people out there. The difference between many of them and the author is that they simply don't feel the need to try to justify their faith. Why should they? They don't owe you or anyone else an explanation.

For people like me, the origins of the universe and life itself are great, thought-provoking questions I find drawn to. For others, they simply just don't care that much and decide to go with God-did-it. Then they go on to use their brains in economics, medicine, phlisophy, etc.

Again, I would suggest that broadly labelling a belief system is the result of limited intellectual inquiry.

Feel free to stick to that opinion. I am not a follower of individual judgement when it comes to general groups. A group is defined by all it's members, especially it's most vocal ones. If the more open folks, as yourself, associate themselves with a group "otherwise" defined, then you also have to bear the blame.

It's neither your nor mine fault christians have a reputation for beeing close minded, dogmatic folks with a bloody and cruel history. They brought that onto themselves and as you can see by the topic starter, still do so. I do respect those christians that are open to debate, distancing themselves from the church and dogmatic ruling, but these folks are a minority and hardly christians in the common sense of the word.


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