U.S.N buys Ruskie sub

[Kapitan]

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5896/alphaatseaky4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Yesterday afternoon the U.S navy announced its intentions to buy and restore a Russian Nuclear submarine.

The submarine in question is known as K123 and currently holds the record for the fastest submarine in the world.

The K123 was built in the 1970’s and is one of seven made, the U.S navy claims this submarine is to be bought at the cost of $4 million U.S Dollars.

The plan is to load the submarine onto a transport ship and then take it back to Norfolk harbour Virginia where specialist personnel can inspect and repair the submarine.

The submarine was removed from Russia’s active duty list permanently in 1995 and has sat waiting for disposal on the Kola Peninsular.

The submarine is to arrive at Norfolk some time next march, it will be the very first time America has stated her intentions to Russia.

Admiral Degalo told interfax “it is a great moment for this submarine, these submarines represented the skill of Russian engineers at the height of the cold war”

The U.S navy claims that the submarine will not be used in front line service but will become a platform for high speed research and later a special target practice submarine, the U.S navy also released the submarines new name “U.S.S Discovery SSRN 2.”

It’s believed that the U.S navy will adapt and modify the submarine for their own use, but the real question is will the submarine be seaworthy when she arrives?

[goldorak]

I don't like it.
Its like giving for free (4 milion dollars :lol: ) a strategic asset.
It makes no sense, from the russian perspective.
If the navy is in so bad a financial situation, I don't think that 4 million dollars would improve significantly the finances.
Silly russians. :down:

[Winston]

I don't know, it would only cost the Russians to scrap it anyway. Looks like they got an opportunity to not only get rid of one more hull that needed disposing of but made a bit of cash at the same time.

[The Avon Lady]

a strategic asset.
A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:

[diver]

Taken out of service in 1995?

I think the Canadians will be able to testidy that submarines do not like being put back into commision after more than a decade on the scrap heap.

And I hope none of the USN blokes they get to man her want to have anymore children.

[SkvyWvr]

a strategic asset.
A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:

Sure, look at some of the US's Carriers.

[UglyMowgli]

the Alfa use a liquid cooled reactor and that kind of reactor demand a lot of care and maintenance even if the sub is on dock (wihout heating the coolant solidified) so at this time the K-123 is unable to take sea and even if this new is true, what i doubt a lot, the navy will have to make a lot effort and spend a lot of money to make it operationnal or prepare a barge with heating system before convoy it to USA.

[The Avon Lady]

a strategic asset.
A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:
Sure, look at some of the US's Carriers.
I assume the Russians ripped out anything of true value just like I assume the carrier USS Intrepid, now serving as a floating museum in New York, no longer contains military sensitive equipment.

[goldorak]

a strategic asset.
A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:

Well you might consider that the form of the hull could represent an asset.
Russians were very innovative with hull design, and by giving away the sub to the americans basically for free , the us navy maybe can learn some one or two tricks about designing efficient hydrodynamic hulls that could be used in future us subs.
Its the same thing about propellers, I don't see the us navy selling polaris submarine propellers 25 years give or take after retiring the subs from service.

[SkvyWvr]

a strategic asset.
A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:
Sure, look at some of the US's Carriers.
I assume the Russians ripped out anything of true value just like I assume the carrier USS Intrepid, now serving as a floating museum in New York, no longer contains military sensitive equipment.

That all depends on their Mothball system. The US puts ships to be decommissioned through a full overhaul, loads it with supplys and covers the weapon/electronics with spray on covering. The intent is to able to reactivate them within 60 days if necessary. Only after years of being in Mothball are ships either sold or scrapped. Thats when they are stripped.

[Oberon]

Nice!
K-123? That'll make my mate happy, that's the sub he always used to choose back when we played Sub Command against each other.

[Kapitan]

Good grief people you lot are so gullable.

[goldorak]

Good grief people you lot are so gullable.

Well I actually said that it didn't make sense from the russian perspective. :rock:
And next time Kapitan wait till 1st april. :rotfl:

[Nagy]

Nice!
K-123? That'll make my mate happy, that's the sub he always used to choose back when we played Sub Command against each other.

It has made me happy.There's no greater tactical advantage than being able to outrun your own topedos!

[SkvyWvr]

Good grief people you lot are so gullable.

:oops: :oops: :oops: Do you have a fishing License? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[fredbass]

The U.S navy claims that the submarine will not be used in front line service but will become a platform for high speed research and later a special target practice submarine, the U.S navy also released the submarines new name “U.S.S Discovery SSRN 2.”

Makes sense to me. We needed something to play around with that would test some of our own subs and ships capabilites and limitations. And I guess a fast 4 million dollar subject seemed like a pretty good deal. :know:

[JSLTIGER]

It had to have been a joke. The titanium in K-123's hull must be worth more than $4 million...remember folks, the Alfa subs used to be referred to as "The Goldfish."

However, if it hadn't been a joke, it's notable to point out that K-123 would provide valuable insight to the US Navy as to hydrodynamic hull and propeller shapes, as well as valuable knowledge regarding system automation.

[SUBMAN1]

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/5896/alphaatseaky4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Yesterday afternoon the U.S navy announced its intentions to buy and restore a Russian Nuclear submarine.

The submarine in question is known as K123 and currently holds the record for the fastest submarine in the world.

The K123 was built in the 1970’s and is one of seven made, the U.S navy claims this submarine is to be bought at the cost of $4 million U.S Dollars.

The plan is to load the submarine onto a transport ship and then take it back to Norfolk harbour Virginia where specialist personnel can inspect and repair the submarine.

The submarine was removed from Russia’s active duty list permanently in 1995 and has sat waiting for disposal on the Kola Peninsular.

The submarine is to arrive at Norfolk some time next march, it will be the very first time America has stated her intentions to Russia.

Admiral Degalo told interfax “it is a great moment for this submarine, these submarines represented the skill of Russian engineers at the height of the cold war”

The U.S navy claims that the submarine will not be used in front line service but will become a platform for high speed research and later a special target practice submarine, the U.S navy also released the submarines new name “U.S.S Discovery SSRN 2.”

It’s believed that the U.S navy will adapt and modify the submarine for their own use, but the real question is will the submarine be seaworthy when she arrives?
What the hell would the US Navy want with a 40 year old tin can? I don't believe it.

And a 40 year old tin can that wasn't even equal to US Navy technology at the time it was produced to boot!

-S

[Kapitan]

Well for a starters the USN has been itching to get its hands on an al'fa from day one, simply because the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Another thing is the blended sail if you lok the sail is blended in nicely to the hull giving less drag effect, again this is where the americans are stumped.

Russia is still today the only country on earth that has made an entire submarine from titanium, and to get hold of even this 40 year old lump of metal would be a gold mine even if we see it as nothing but a pile of junk.

If you notice all the submarines that are up for scrap are made of steel why do you think russia has not released the al'fa and papa class for scrapping yet? because when they do you can rest assured the royal navy and the U.S navy will be climbing over them and inspecting them with a tooth pick!

It maybe 40 years old it may be rotten to you it may not be at the level you expect in the USN but at the time it was made nothing on gods earth could touch the submarine and that counts more than anything so effectivly it was totaly invincible, now do you see why the americans went ahead and desigend the MK48 ADCAP? because if it wasnt for the al'fa then the ADCAPS would probably not exist.

So how did the russians counter the ADCAPS? simple they built a submarine that could go even deeper.

Enter Project 685 Plavnik or mike class with a crush depth of 1,100 meters the mighty ADCAP couldnt get this submarine its just a shame that it sank:-?

[Kapitan]

And another thing the Al'fa class alone in scrap value is worth a good $50 million and i have seen an al'fa in real life sadly it was completely gutted just a hollow shell but they are quite small for a russian submarine!

[August]

a strategic asset. A rusty bucket from the 70's is a strategic asset 30 years later? :doh:

Possibly, B-52s for example are that old and older.

[Captain Nemo]

The only downside to the Alfa was that it was very noisy, but I suppose with a top speed of around 45+ knots and max depth of around 3,000+ feet it didn't really matter. I remember reading a book which had an account from a Russian captain of an Alfa class sub and he said that he was being tailed by an LA class boat. To evade he took his Alfa down to a 1,000 metres and the LA just couldn't follow him.

Nemo

[SUBMAN1]

Well for a starters the USN has been itching to get its hands on an al'fa from day one, simply because the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Another thing is the blended sail if you lok the sail is blended in nicely to the hull giving less drag effect, again this is where the americans are stumped.

Russia is still today the only country on earth that has made an entire submarine from titanium, and to get hold of even this 40 year old lump of metal would be a gold mine even if we see it as nothing but a pile of junk.

If you notice all the submarines that are up for scrap are made of steel why do you think russia has not released the al'fa and papa class for scrapping yet? because when they do you can rest assured the royal navy and the U.S navy will be climbing over them and inspecting them with a tooth pick!

It maybe 40 years old it may be rotten to you it may not be at the level you expect in the USN but at the time it was made nothing on gods earth could touch the submarine and that counts more than anything so effectivly it was totaly invincible, now do you see why the americans went ahead and desigend the MK48 ADCAP? because if it wasnt for the al'fa then the ADCAPS would probably not exist.

So how did the russians counter the ADCAPS? simple they built a submarine that could go even deeper.

Enter Project 685 Plavnik or mike class with a crush depth of 1,100 meters the mighty ADCAP couldnt get this submarine its just a shame that it sank:-?

I disagree with you on several points - The only reason this sub is fast is simply because it is small and packs 42000-43000 shp. Its a brute force method that gave this sub a chance in a world where stealth is paramount and the Russians had no idea how to build a stealthy sub at the time. The sail, though nice, is designed for speed since littoral missions were impossible for Russian subs. US subs were designed for many mission types making the sail as found on US subs an asset, as well as for under ice operations. Its no big deal to streamline a sail (US designers could do it any time they want), but if that makes you more detectable in a shallow environment, its actually a hinderance.

The titanium is nice, but pointlessly expensive. The ADCAP is nice and would have come about eventually too through constant modifications anyway - just like its new mod is about to come out (And there was no Alfa around to spur its redesign this time!). Get the point? Outside of the metal value on this thing, I don't think the US would even want it other than to use as a enemy signature in a wargames scenario.

-S

[Dogsbd]

the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Sure we know how to make a faster sub if that was so important, but speed isn't as important as quiteness. I bet the Russians would do just about anything to be able to build a boat as quite as the latest US boats.

[Kapitan]

The american subs that have thier dive planes on the sail find it alot harder to surface through thick ice than the russians the knife like sail of the akula makes it perfect to slice open ice and surface.

The al'fa is yes now way obsolete, however in 1969 the americans lost thier undersea advantage untill whitey mack came along as the russians launched the yankee class.

Today submarines like the kilo and akula class are far quieter than the main line attack submarines the USN has (688 / 688i) the seawolf is of good design and quality something the soviets didnt have till alot later on.

And the alfa incident was off the coast of iceland back in the 1980's The alfa out dived and out ran its persueing submarine.

The alfa's role was not littoral or under ice but it was mainly an intercept submarine carried torpedos only to defend itslef the idea was it could speed ahead to meet the enamy battle group report back then run back before the USN could do squat about it.

The last alfa was used in 1995 as a trials boat then was re laid up again and so far it has just sat there.

The alfa was designed for speed and speed only, the soviets knew that they couldnt get the americans with silencing so they had the other alternative which was to make masses amounts of submarines (over 500) as they knew come war time they were bound to loose alot.

Now take the al'fas sucsessor there isnt one the role the alfa played is now built into the sierra III and to a point the Akula.

[SUBMAN1]

The american subs that have thier dive planes on the sail find it alot harder to surface through thick ice than the russians the knife like sail of the akula makes it perfect to slice open ice and surface.

The al'fa is yes now way obsolete, however in 1969 the americans lost thier undersea advantage untill whitey mack came along as the russians launched the yankee class.

Today submarines like the kilo and akula class are far quieter than the main line attack submarines the USN has (688 / 688i) the seawolf is of good design and quality something the soviets didnt have till alot later on.

And the alfa incident was off the coast of iceland back in the 1980's The alfa out dived and out ran its persueing submarine.

The alfa's role was not littoral or under ice but it was mainly an intercept submarine carried torpedos only to defend itslef the idea was it could speed ahead to meet the enamy battle group report back then run back before the USN could do squat about it.

The last alfa was used in 1995 as a trials boat then was re laid up again and so far it has just sat there.

The alfa was designed for speed and speed only, the soviets knew that they couldnt get the americans with silencing so they had the other alternative which was to make masses amounts of submarines (over 500) as they knew come war time they were bound to loose alot.

Now take the al'fas sucsessor there isnt one the role the alfa played is now built into the sierra III and to a point the Akula.
Last time I checked, some of this is incorrect to. Dive planes haven't been on the sails in 20 to 30 years! ANd even when they were, they turned up 90 degrees to punch through the ice.

Also, the Akula is about as quiet as a 688 or maybe barely more, but the 688i is about the same or slightly less. And, no matter how you spin it, US subs don't need to catch the Alfa. They just need to keep them away. To play catch, that is what P-3's and Helo's are for and no Alfa is going to get away from those. Its noisey, and it can only go 45 knots. It can't hide. This is why it is sitting in the scrap yard.

-S

[Kapitan]

When the last alfa came out of service it was a good 35 years old these boats have only been sent to the scrap heap due to thier age.

Also i have read some where that the 688 diving planes do not go full 90 degrees making under ice ops harder.

Bear in mind all bar the delta class are designed specificaly for under ice operations from day one.

No sub can out run a helo or P3 but we can hide in places such as the artic ocean and so the P3 and helo are totaly useless.

[Kapitan]

I think we need erm more detail on that.

I have studied russian submarines for the last 8 to 10 years and have been on a fair few of them, and yes i can pick faults problems and what not with them but i do find i am bias alot to the russian side.

However sometimes the russians do have a clear cut advantage and sometimes so the americans do also it makes it fairish.

[SUBMAN1]

When the last alfa came out of service it was a good 35 years old these boats have only been sent to the scrap heap due to thier age.

Also i have read some where that the 688 diving planes do not go full 90 degrees making under ice ops harder.

Bear in mind all bar the delta class are designed specificaly for under ice operations from day one.

No sub can out run a helo or P3 but we can hide in places such as the artic ocean and so the P3 and helo are totaly useless.
the 688 goes to a full 90 degrees - I have pics of it somewhere, so your source is incorrect. Still, 90 degree sometimes incurs damage, so the 688i with the dive planes moved to the hull was created to better deal with punching through.

Why would a carrier battlegroup need protection in the middle of ice? This is why I don't get that comment about hiding under ice and the P-3 / Helo. The 688i would be hunting the Delta in the past under ice however, which is what I don't get - why would an Alfa be used to protect it? The Alfa would give its position away due to the noise it generated. Alfa's were one of the noisest subs ever made.

THe Alfa's strategic value is minimal as compared to the AKula (Or the better Sierra that only 1 was made as far as I know) to the old Soviet Union. There is no need to produce more expensive (Their cost was prohibitive - which is what makes me question their logic of why they were produced - but the old Soviets were big on intimidation, so maybe that is the answer? They destroyed the Russian nylon industry making the Tsar bomb simply for intimidation, so that is probably the answer) subs with little or no stratigic value - that is why you do not have any more Alfa's running around. Just my 2 cents.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

So you can tell your source they are incorrect:

http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/Nouveau_dossier/us-sub-ice.jpg

[SUBMAN1]

Here is the USS Archerfish Los Angeles class:

http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/Archerfish-en-1997-pti.jpg

[sonar732]

Here is the USS Archerfish Los Angeles class:

http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/Archerfish-en-1997-pti.jpg

SUBMAN1...The Archerfish wasn't a 688...it was a Sturgeon class. 688's are named for cities, except the Herman G. Rickover.

[Kapitan]

I can see your point but the alfa would never be placed in escort duty to a boomer the soviets are not that dumb most SSBN's patrol alone or with a submarine of equal quietness ie akula escorts delta or typhoon ect.

[SUBMAN1]

I can see your point but the alfa would never be placed in escort duty to a boomer the soviets are not that dumb most SSBN's patrol alone or with a submarine of equal quietness ie akula escorts delta or typhoon ect.

I read stories of tracking ALfa's with Russian Boomers!!! That is not true either!

-S

[HunterICX]

:roll: Kapitan and subman shows us the reason why
America and Russia are still building newer subs just to show how big their c**** is.

dont take this too personally :up:

[Kapitan]

Alfa would never ever and to my knowlege has never escorted any submarine, in a time of war they would be used as decoy submarines simply because they are loud.

Ok so theres no place for them in this day and age but back then they were very usefull bit of kits if not millaterily then pschcologicaly.

The alfa is like a pre orderd package, what you see is what you get its realy that simple.

They also have five bladed screw which is why they are so loud the shaft coulnt take the wieght of the 7 blade screw plus the screw is small.

[SUBMAN1]

:roll: Kapitan and subman shows us the reason why
America and Russia are still building newer subs just to show how big their c**** is.

dont take this too personally :up:

Nice

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Alfa would never ever and to my knowlege has never escorted any submarine, in a time of war they would be used as decoy submarines simply because they are loud.

Ok so theres no place for them in this day and age but back then they were very usefull bit of kits if not millaterily then pschcologicaly.

The alfa is like a pre orderd package, what you see is what you get its realy that simple.

They also have five bladed screw which is why they are so loud the shaft coulnt take the wieght of the 7 blade screw plus the screw is small.

Check this site out Kapitan - http://zone.sousmarins.free.fr/cadre%20sous%20marin%20photos%20N1.htm

All pics. I wish I could read better French.

-S

[Linton]

In the early 1950s a concept of the fighter submarine was considered.A fighter is a point defense weapon used to defend an area but has a good turn of speed to get about its allotted box and interdict.The concept was studied in the RN but was abandoned.As we have seen before the cccp had a submarine for every task and often for only an individual task hence the Alfa.What the USN are buying it for I do not know.A submarine is a black cat in a darkened room-you may not even be sure it is there but the threat remains.A loud submarine darting around causing a lot of noise negates its greatest strength -stealth!It then turns into your daughters stereo!!

[goldorak]

In the early 1950s a concept of the fighter submarine was considered.A fighter is a point defense weapon used to defend an area but has a good turn of speed to get about its allotted box and interdict.The concept was studied in the RN but was abandoned.As we have seen before the cccp had a submarine for every task and often for only an individual task hence the Alfa.What the USN are buying it for I do not know.A submarine is a black cat in a darkened room-you may not even be sure it is there but the threat remains.A loud submarine darting around causing a lot of noise negates its greatest strength -stealth!It then turns into your daughters stereo!!

It depends really, what if the mission at hand doesn't require stealth ?
Imagine this : 5 alfa's running towards an american battlegroup ready to sink the aircarft carrier.
A lot of 688i are there for interdiction.
The 688/688i are stealthier but their weapons proves ineffective against the alfas because of speed.
American subs have always had a great advantage in terms of stealth, but what good is a weapon (in this case a torpedo) that can't get at the target because the target outruns the torpedo ?
Now if the Alfa were slow and loud I would agree that it wouldn't have had any practical use, but thats not the case.

[SUBMAN1]

In the early 1950s a concept of the fighter submarine was considered.A fighter is a point defense weapon used to defend an area but has a good turn of speed to get about its allotted box and interdict.The concept was studied in the RN but was abandoned.As we have seen before the cccp had a submarine for every task and often for only an individual task hence the Alfa.What the USN are buying it for I do not know.A submarine is a black cat in a darkened room-you may not even be sure it is there but the threat remains.A loud submarine darting around causing a lot of noise negates its greatest strength -stealth!It then turns into your daughters stereo!!

It depends really, what if the mission at hand doesn't require stealth ?
Imagine this : 5 alfa's running towards an american battlegroup ready to sink the aircarft carrier.
A lot of 688i are there for interdiction.
The 688/688i are stealthier but their weapons proves ineffective against the alfas because of speed.
American subs have always had a great advantage in terms of stealth, but what good is a weapon (in this case a torpedo) that can't get at the target because the target outruns the torpedo ?
Now if the Alfa were slow and loud I would agree that it wouldn't have had any practical use, but thats not the case.

The Alfa's would be detected and fired upon on approach before they even knew they had a torpedoe inbound. By that time, its too late. To run is one thing, to continue on to your target is abother. Besides, carriers com bristeling with inconvenient (for an Alfa that is) Helo's and anti sub forces.

-S

[Bort]

Just to put an end to the whole "can the 688 class go under the ice or not" debate, according to the USNI Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet (18th ed.) the original 688 class "lacks under ice or mine laying capabilities." These shortcomings were rectified in the 688I design, and was the primary reason the planes were moved from the sail to the hull. Sturgeon class subs however, had ice hardened sails and could surface through ice, and carried out most arctic research missions until they were all finally retired.
The reason the 688 class was not designed to go through ice was probably rooted to the overall concept behind the class. The 688's were intended to operate with CVBG's and therefore being ice hardened was probably thought to be unnecessary.

[Kapitan]

The 688i's were changed good idea that was :D they are good boats but now old seawolf is alot better, if only the USN had 40 of them.

[ASWnut101]

which is why theres the Virginia.....:cool:

[Wim Libaers]

In the early 1950s a concept of the fighter submarine was considered.A fighter is a point defense weapon used to defend an area but has a good turn of speed to get about its allotted box and interdict.The concept was studied in the RN but was abandoned.As we have seen before the cccp had a submarine for every task and often for only an individual task hence the Alfa.What the USN are buying it for I do not know.A submarine is a black cat in a darkened room-you may not even be sure it is there but the threat remains.A loud submarine darting around causing a lot of noise negates its greatest strength -stealth!It then turns into your daughters stereo!!
It depends really, what if the mission at hand doesn't require stealth ?
Imagine this : 5 alfa's running towards an american battlegroup ready to sink the aircarft carrier.
A lot of 688i are there for interdiction.
The 688/688i are stealthier but their weapons proves ineffective against the alfas because of speed.
American subs have always had a great advantage in terms of stealth, but what good is a weapon (in this case a torpedo) that can't get at the target because the target outruns the torpedo ?
Now if the Alfa were slow and loud I would agree that it wouldn't have had any practical use, but thats not the case.

I guess it would be hard for them to outrun a torpedo while running towards the one who fired the torpedo. Besides, even if the torpedo can't catch them, that's what rocket propelled nuclear depth charges are for.

[Kapitan]

But even then 45 knots the nuclear depth charges would create one heck of a problem as they too wouldnt be able to catch up as by the time they had reached 750 meters the sub is long gone.

[ASWnut101]

:know: keyword here: NUCLEAR (ie. 1 megaton)

It does not need to get to 750 meters, and it dosent have to get anywhere close....

[Kapitan]

Maybe not but i would think the ship that did actualy drop it would have a few issues also if its dropped by helo then no issues there and yeah it will probably kill it.

Sorry i am still thinking steel barrels rolled off end of ship.

[ASWnut101]

Isn't that a little SH3 going to your head?:lol:

[Kapitan]

Yeah im addicted its the stress of having my cealing coming down due to attacks by the DD's and my flat leaking cause the DD's gunned it :D

[Linton]

This site shows the we 177 dropped by a wasp helicopter
http://www.middle-watch.co.uk/Nuclear.htm


By the way Kap did you know that gullable is not in the dictionairy!

[Kapitan]

lol i think i have seen it in the idots guide to inglish !

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Well for a starters the USN has been itching to get its hands on an al'fa from day one, simply because the submarine is still the fastest submarine in the world and the americans dont seem to be able to grasp how to do it.

Please do not presume to speak for the US Navy. It was decided LONG ago that stealth is FAR more important than speed. Itching to get its hand one?? Maybe for the first few years, yes. Once we started to get intelligence of what was reallty there? Um.. no. We would not be more interested in the Alpha than in any other design.

It was like the MIG-25. It was accorded almost supernatural powers. Once they actually got one they saw that it was FAR more bark than bite. Basically it was a stainless steel brick that flew VERY fast. We went as far as build the F-15 to combat the Mig-25.


Another thing is the blended sail if you lok the sail is blended in nicely to the hull giving less drag effect, again this is where the americans are stumped.

Oh please.. we are so far ahead in computer aided design it is not funny. Yes, the blended hull design DOES help in going fast, it does not dictate final top speed.

Russia is still today the only country on earth that has made an entire submarine from titanium,

At the time, metallurgy was not as far along as it is now, thus the need for expensive and exotic materials. Also, with the help of CAD, you can build structures that are as tough without having to go to exotic and hard to work with metals. I am not diminishing the achievement that was accomplished by working with titanium, just that in this day and age it is not as hard to do the same thing with other materials if needed.

because when they do you can rest assured the royal navy and the U.S navy will be climbing over them and inspecting them with a tooth pick!

I would like to think that the soviet goverment realizes that once they do scrap them, the metal recovered worth FAR more than the money used to obtain such high level refined materials. Steel is cheap, titanium is not. Economics and not keeping secrets is what is going on here.

It maybe 40 years old it may be rotten to you it may not be at the level you expect in the USN but at the time it was made nothing on gods earth could touch the submarine and that counts more than anything so effectivly it was totaly invincible, now do you see why the americans went ahead and desigend the MK48 ADCAP? because if it wasnt for the al'fa then the ADCAPS would probably not exist.

See my comment above about granting things mythical powers. Lets see, The Alpha class was a carrier killer by design and by tactical employment. It was too noisy to be a SSN/SSBM killer. I remember sonar techs telling me how noisy the things were. You knew it was coming and just moved away from it.

Invincible you say? Really now? Going 44+ knots means you are TOTALLY blind. Yep, you can run fast, but you can's see squat. I know, it was a deep sea torpedo platform. It could shoot our carriers deeper then we can shoot at it. Shoot torpedoes at 3000+ feet? I did not realize that the soviets made titanium topedoes. Wait. It could lurk down at 3000+ feet and move quietly at 3 knots and listen and report back to the fleet headquarters where the carrier group was. Wait, did they bring a 3000+ foot long floating antenna?

See what I mean? For it to be a useful weapon of war it has to be functional. Yes, it is run deeper and ran faster than what we had. Back then it was about bragging right to the international community. We are bigger, badder, more advanced than the other guy. Mess with us and we will use our super weapons on you.

Back in the cold war we tended to go worst case when we see any new military platform. We had to look at it like this. If it can go so fast it must have some kind of new sensor platform. Otherwise it is useless becuase OUR sonar with worthless at these speeds. It can dive so deep. Well then, it must have some new kind of weapon launching system because our can not work at that depth. The weapons it shoots, well, the top secret rumor of this new super deep running torpedo that can go 60 knots and run for 100 miles. Well, that must be have been developed for this new platform otherwise it can not DO anything till it gets shallow to launch a weapon and then we CAN kill it.

Once we found out that this was basically a fast deep diving platform that did not have any super secret sensor/weapon/gizmo that exploited these capibilities then we saw that it was all hype and no bite.

ADCAPS were primarily to deal with the double hull designs the USN were going to go up against. Deeper depth and speed WERE done to address the deeper diving and faster sub at that time but that was not the sole reason that they were developed. There are other issues that mandated the development of the ADCAP torpedo that had more to do with american submarine designs than you may percieve.

[Kapitan]

I cant comment fully of your post but i can definatly say that the al'fa is not designed to kill carriers, and it was never designed for that role i have been to malakhit the people who acctualy designed these submarines and seen the specification for the submarines as they are unclassified.

The need of the al'fa boils down to a high speed deep diving interceptor type submarine, main role was to find the CVBG and vector in the Echo Julliette and later oscar class SSGN's to come and kill them, its entire purpose in life was to hunt down the CVBG find and relay positions it only had torpedos to defend itself.