Israel - lock n load!

[kiwi_2005]

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them :lol: Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books

I hear the Mossad would have no problem in completing this mission

The nutter speaks
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3317417,00.html <-----This way TteFAboB :)

[TteFAboB]

I feel so blind, thanks for the directions. :cool: :D

[Skybird]

Iran is in an extremely strong position, and I tend to think of them as one of the most dominant and influential powers on the globe. We may not like it, but currently I see no way to seriously hurt them without using nukes. they are close to invulnerable as long as China and India do not let them down - and why should they...??? As a matter of fact - we depend on them - while they do not need the West that much. For what should they need the West? Every oil they do not sell to the West, will happily bought by India and China.

If you want to bully someone, make sure you have solid stand. In this, we have not.

That's why I say time and again: without making it our absolute top priority to become independent from Muslim oil, all our actions about Iran, Islam, hezbollah - only is hot air. We can't afford it another fifty years to depend on them selling us oil (or not). We can't depend anymore to live at the receiving end of these incredible vulnerable lifelines of tankers and pipelines and trading lines that are so very open to attack and shutting-down by anyone who likes to do that.

And the Iranians know that! As an Israeli security expert recently pointed out in a German interview, Arabs are proud of their traditions and thus tend to act stereotypic and repeat the same old mistakes time and again, but the Persians are no Arabs, and are smart thinkers and clever minds - which makes them an extremely dangerous enemy.

Also mind you that it falls into this scheme that the most dominant crisis in the ME is not around Israel, but the confrontation between Shia and Sunni Islam. Sunni Arabs fear Shia Iran very much. the conflict is one millennium old, and never was cold. Sunnis have understood that Israel is no threat to their regimes. But Iran-supported Shia Islam is a very extreme danger to them. Have you noticed how relatively silent the Sunni states were about Israel trying to crack Iran-backed Shia Hezbollah? ;) ;) ;)

The inner conflict of an enemy is our benefit. i wonder why we do not start to think about how we could widen and exploit the gap within Islam, economically, culturally, financially, politically, by every means available. Oh wait, that is not considered to be polite, I suppose. Oh dear... Once Shias will believe somebody - no matter who it is - who is telling them he is their hidden Iman who returned to them, their in a way "defensive" understanding of jihad will switch to unlimted attack mode (that'S why they are waiting so desperately). Then we will see Islam in uncontrolled charge. we can't afford to let such a person rise to that accepted status of being their long-awaited Imam. Ahmadinejad is referring to that tradition - that's why he gains so many sympathies.

[HunterICX]

:-? seems that we are waiting till the day will come that we are in an open war.
you know its comming , but when?

[Skybird]

:-? seems that we are waiting till the day will come that we are in an open war.
you know its comming , but when?
Hopefully not before we are no longer depending on their oil. Else we will have lost it the day war broke out. and even then it is an extremely risky adventure, and our victory - or even survival - is anything but certain. We are more vulnerable, then they are. Our high complexity and developement standard only works as long as we are confronted with lower powers that can not really hurt us. If faced with the ablity to exploit our weaknesses, we no longer look like the winners for sure - our dependencies on what makes us to superior to lower factions, turns into threatening vulnerability of ourselves.

All wars of the US since WWII have been against much weaker, local factions only that could not project influence or combat effectiveness beyond their region. and even under these optimal conditions, the war sometimes failed (Korea an unsatisfying draw with hurting long-term consequences, Vietnam a total defeat, Iraq a total defeat, Afghanistan about getting lost, the "Stellvertreterkrieg" of Israel versus Hezbollah being a defeat as well - it was the general test and preparation-effort towards an Iran war).

I can only warn of easily starting a war against Iran. And do not even start again to think about wanting to missionise them again towards western understandings of freedom and democracy...!!! try that, and if you do not loose the war during the field battle, you will loose it afterwards nevertheless.

[fredbass]

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them :lol: Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books.

Don't worry, they'll do what they have to do. There's been a number of covert and secret operations against them already. I'm sure there will be more. Plus they can do our work for us. They're excellent sub-contractors. :cool:

[SUBMAN1]

If Israel can stop 400 million arabs from overtaking them :lol: Then why the hell do they not take out the Iranian president. This guy needs to be taken down. Hes a threat not just to israel but all us westerners. No1 enemy in my books

I hear the Mossad would have no problem in completing this mission

The nutter speaks
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3317417,00.html <-----This way TteFAboB :)
Because it would be a waste of time. He has no real power in that country. He is merly a puppet.

[HunterICX]

:hmm: like I have to agree with skybird
it sounds like ''we're screwed anyway if we dont think of an solution fast''

[Gary]

Hey! Kiwi_2005,
It sounds to me like your book is the book of the "jew puppet"!
shalom,:lol:

[SUBMAN1]

Hey! Kiwi_2005,
It sounds to me like your book is the book of the "jew puppet"!
shalom,:lol:

I'd rather be a jew puppet than a brainless towel head, or should we call them little Sheet Heads? :rock:

[Gary]

"Little sheet heads" that's cute. I hope you would understand
that there are two sides to every story (minimum) and with the
jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about
who are real enemies really are. I belive we as a nation have
been duped in to this mideast conflict.

[SUBMAN1]

"Little sheet heads" that's cute. I hope you would understand
that there are two sides to every story (minimum) and with the
jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about
who are real enemies really are. I belive we as a nation have
been duped in to this mideast conflict.

I don't think so. Anyone that wants to kill me for simply not conforming to their religion needs to be nuked. Plain and simple. These people want me dead simply because i am not Muslim. I think you have been a bit deceived.

Also, who would conform to a god such as theirs which is nothing more than a tyrant? One that says your good list must be longer than your bad list for you to get into heaven? One that says, the only way you are going to heaven since your bad lid outweighs your good list and you can never hope to recover from it except to sacrafice yourself into killing the infidels by becoming a human bomb?

Are you nuts to even suggest or condone that sort of behavior? You would have to be. 72 virgins, hahaha! That would constitute infidelity in my book. Seems the Koran was written more under convinience than under what is right and wrong. If you look at history though, this was a popular thing to create religions at the time this one was created, so it is not surprising.

-S

[HunterICX]

Subman,

I agree with the part about ''killing us because we arent muslim''
Nukes destroys a bit too much...but if some muslim tries to kill me and if he failes I make sure he pays for it.
I would give him an Old Style infidelish whoopass that will lead to his death or very critical state in an hospital.
and you hear them talking about an ''Torture death'' well I paste a sticker on his forehead saying ''Pwned by a Infidel''

[Gary]

In a Muslim nation the people of that nation can require foreigners
to submit to their laws any way they see fit. That is their country
Consider if you will that Muslims are subjected to the same type
propaganda about us as we are about them, generally speaking.
Concerning their religious motives just remember Iran is an
independent nation therefore dose not grovel for jew approval.:D

[SUBMAN1]

In a Muslim nation the people of that nation can require foreigners
to submit to their laws any way they see fit. That is their country
Consider if you will that Muslims are subjected to the same type
propaganda about us as we are about them, generally speaking.
Concerning their religious motives just remember Iran is an
independent nation therefore dose not grovel for jew approval.:D

WHo grovels for Jew approval? Is this Gary happy land? Most Americans are pretty much nuetral to the subject, but we also feel we must defend them if they are attacked unfairly. Same as with any other country. When Afganistan was unfairly attacked, the US stepped in and delivered arms. Vietnam, same issue. Grenada, same issue. Kuwait, same issue. Korea, same issue. Even Somalia is along the same lines. Need I go on with this list?

THe point is, to suggest we favor one country over the other is not correct. To suggest that the Jewish state controls ours is not correct. The more correct answer is that we support them because they have been subjected to crimes against their state! Quite frankly, I am not quite sure why they haven't done something against the rockets flying into their country for no reason. Hezbollah just decides to launch here and there and I don't quite get why everyone is upset that Isreal got ticked off and bombed the hell out of them??? Yeah, I'd have to side with Isreal on that one. If some country allowed rockets to be fired into mine indescriminently, I'd have my ass up on Capitol Hill demanding answers as to why we didn't retaliate! Someone kidnaps our soldiers, same thing. I don't understand why some countries claim they responded too harshly. I am wondering personally, why they didn't respond with more force???

-S

[Frenssen]

The Iranian president is playing a dangerous game which can lead to war. Israel must take Iranian threats seriously and they will do whatever necessary to defend themselves.

[waste gate]

Originally Posted by Gary
with the jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about who are real enemies really are

Can you elaborate on this?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Gary
with the jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about who are real enemies really are
Can you elaborate on this?

He is trying to feed you FUD (Fear Uncertanty Doubt). All propoganda. So no, he can't.

-S

[CB..]

i say we send him a packet of smokey bacon crisps..a copy of the beano...some wrigleys spearmint gum...a small plastic model of superman...a cuddly toy....a wig....a portable food tray...a set of matching hand towels..by diplomatic curiour

it would make as much sense as what he sends us..

[waste gate]

Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Originally Posted by Gary
Quote:
with the jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about who are real enemies really are

Can you elaborate on this?


He is trying to feed you FUD (Fear Uncertanty Doubt). All propoganda. So no, he can't.

-S


Please don't answer for Gary. Let the man speak for himself. His opinion is important.

[NefariousKoel]

All wars of the US since WWII have been against much weaker, local factions only that could not project influence or combat effectiveness beyond their region. and even under these optimal conditions, the war sometimes failed (Korea an unsatisfying draw with hurting long-term consequences, Vietnam a total defeat, Iraq a total defeat, Afghanistan about getting lost, the "Stellvertreterkrieg" of Israel versus Hezbollah being a defeat as well - it was the general test and preparation-effort towards an Iran war).

I can only warn of easily starting a war against Iran. And do not even start again to think about wanting to missionise them again towards western understandings of freedom and democracy...!!! try that, and if you do not loose the war during the field battle, you will loose it afterwards nevertheless.
All the wars you mentioned were not wholly successful, or not successful at all due to one thing. Ignorantly restrictive ROE established by US politicians. The same reason the current setup is not working very well IMO. :nope:

Fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back (and shoved down your pink freakin' panties) is no way to fight a war at all. Go all the way or don't go at all.

Also..
WTF is Gary on about? People never fail to amaze me when they open their mouth.

[Gary]

Please let me apologize for causing so much "Fear Uncertanty Doubt"
among you. I had hoped adding a non-jew approved opinion to this call
for murdering the innocent leader of Iran as well as the cowardly
strike with nukes might have been food for thought.
Question: Was that FUD coarse part of some new jew approved sensitivity
training? That is if you are in the military?
I just had to ASK but you don't have to TELL.

I know you have to be awfully careful what you say about the jew in the
military these days, after all you are just temporary sub-contractors as
far as the jews are concerned.:D

[waste gate]

Gary, I was hoping you could elaborate on your view regarding the jewish question.

[Skybird]

All the wars you mentioned were not wholly successful, or not successful at all due to one thing. Ignorantly restrictive ROE established by US politicians. The same reason the current setup is not working very well IMO. :nope:

Fighting a war with one hand tied behind your back (and shoved down your pink freakin' panties) is no way to fight a war at all. Go all the way or don't go at all.

I agree on the seocnd part, completely, and have used exactly that phrase myself repeatedly. However, western cou7ntries are not run by the military alone, and their wars are not fought by the military alone, but also by politicians. the union of political and military intentions in western wars is a reality. So it does not matter if you are right or wrong with your argument to put the military failure into relation. the wars were lost, by the whole of the nation - and that includes military as weoll as the political level. Without the political level, it would be no democracy, but a miliztary dictatorship.

but it definitely would help if politicians would have a bit more of brain and reason at times, and would focus on decision making about question wether going to war, or not - and once the decision has been made leave it to the military. But that is not the reality of today.

[Skybird]

Me thinks Gary is a strange guy.

[SUBMAN1]

Me thinks Gary is a strange guy.

I concur.

[SUBMAN1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by waste gate
Originally Posted by Gary
Quote:
with the jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about who are real enemies really are

Can you elaborate on this?


He is trying to feed you FUD (Fear Uncertanty Doubt). All propoganda. So no, he can't.

-S


Please don't answer for Gary. Let the man speak for himself. His opinion is important.


From what I have seen, his opinion doesn't account for much (Matter of fact, its a little whacked), so no thanks.

[Takeda Shingen]

Please let me apologize for causing so much "Fear Uncertanty Doubt"
among you. I had hoped adding a non-jew approved opinion to this call
for murdering the innocent leader of Iran as well as the cowardly
strike with nukes might have been food for thought.
Question: Was that FUD coarse part of some new jew approved sensitivity
training? That is if you are in the military?
I just had to ASK but you don't have to TELL.

I know you have to be awfully careful what you say about the jew in the
military these days, after all you are just temporary sub-contractors as
far as the jews are concerned.:D

Tell, me, doth the Well of Hatred sound so deeply in this age? It is time for you to come out of the failed political anti-semitism of the 19th century. Do you fear the present? Do you hide under low beds? Do you confine yourself to the conumption of twigs and roots for fear of tampered vittles?

Come to think of this, I ask in vain. You will not be around long enough to answer.

[Yahoshua]

....with the jew controlled media we as Americans have been so deceived about who are real enemies really are......

This is why i stopped reading newspapers from mainstream U.S. and started reading some of the Arab papers.

In the U.S. mainstream papers all I hear is that we're being criticized, bombed, threatened, killed, murdered, held down by politics and forced to tie our hands behind our backs while we give away what little land we have left.

In the Arab papers however, we own all the land, control all the banks, we're all rich, and the world is perfect! Where do I subscribe? :roll:

(Gary------> :doh: )

So, seeing as I'm a Jew (or to be more precise, an Israelite since I don't know what tribe I'm from), can you explain to me why I'm poor?

It really does defy all intelligence that a nation the size of New Jersey could somehow inconvienence the whole of the Middle East and most of North Africa simply by existing.

Do you care to explain any of this or would you prefer to bury your head in the ground where it's nice and cuddly for you?

[Coda]

Me thinks Gary is a strange guy.

Don't think we need a poll to validate that.

[Coda]

This is why i stopped reading newspapers from mainstream U.S. and started reading some of the Arab papers.

Same here. Now all I read is http://www.happynews.com

[Gary]

I find it more than interesting over the response to what I
have said. I read all kinds of things negative towards Islam
but when I, (being definitely no jew sycophant) mention a
perspective which is forbidden on the jew media, some of you
respond as if I am doing something criminal or immoral or at
least taboo. And in the midst of all this is the casual bluster
of nuking a nation of Iran. Astonishing!
Consider this: We would have no problem with Iran if it were
not for the jews lusting for the murder of it's leader.

[Ducimus]

Jewish conrolled media? Suure, and im sure who's really pulling the zionist puptieers strings is the freemasons and the illuminate...... *COUGH*

[Yahoshua]

Oh COOL!!!!

So that means I can do this!!

http://raffael-spirig.blog.students.ch/files/red-button.jpg

After all, it IS Iran who is starting this whole sorry mess by promising to wipe Israel off the map. I haven't seen Israel do anything of the like.

Why wouldn't the "Jewish controlled planet" then simply send all the "Jewish controlled armies" to massively invade Iran and crush them?

This is funny. I'm going to enjoy this.

[Coda]

I find it more than interesting over the response to what I
have said. I read all kinds of things negative towards Islam
but when I, (being definitely no jew sycophant) mention a
perspective which is forbidden on the jew media, some of you
respond as if I am doing something criminal or immoral or at
least taboo. And in the midst of all this is the casual bluster
of nuking a nation of Iran. Astonishing!
Consider this: We would have no problem with Iran if it were
not for the jews lusting for the murder of it's leader.
Not really, it's just that you say such stupid things.

Some people I just turn and walk away from. Some I watch closely as I slowly back away.

[Skybird]

I find it more than interesting over the response to what I
have said. I read all kinds of things negative towards Islam
but when I, (being definitely no jew sycophant) mention a
perspective which is forbidden on the jew media, some of you
respond as if I am doing something criminal or immoral or at
least taboo. And in the midst of all this is the casual bluster
of nuking a nation of Iran. Astonishing!
Consider this: We would have no problem with Iran if it were
not for the jews lusting for the murder of it's leader.

You criticise the "stereotyping" of some of us - but "stereotype" yourself even more exemplary. That's what we call double standards. judging by your revealing phrasing, to me it is clear what direction you are coming from, and now I leave you alone, forever. Like Coda already indicated - don't come too close to me.

I personally think it would be no loss if you decide not stay here. Your antisemitic language is telltale. My tolerance for that is zero.

[kiwi_2005]

WHo grovels for Jew approval? Is this Gary happy land? Most Americans are pretty much nuetral to the subject, but we also feel we must defend them if they are attacked unfairly. Same as with any other country. When Afganistan was unfairly attacked, the US stepped in and delivered arms. Vietnam, same issue. Grenada, same issue. Kuwait, same issue. Korea, same issue. Even Somalia is along the same lines. Need I go on with this list?

THe point is, to suggest we favor one country over the other is not correct. To suggest that the Jewish state controls ours is not correct. The more correct answer is that we support them because they have been subjected to crimes against their state! Quite frankly, I am not quite sure why they haven't done something against the rockets flying into their country for no reason. Hezbollah just decides to launch here and there and I don't quite get why everyone is upset that Isreal got ticked off and bombed the hell out of them??? Yeah, I'd have to side with Isreal on that one. If some country allowed rockets to be fired into mine indescriminently, I'd have my ass up on Capitol Hill demanding answers as to why we didn't retaliate! Someone kidnaps our soldiers, same thing. I don't understand why some countries claim they responded too harshly. I am wondering personally, why they didn't respond with more force???

-S

Good post. sometimes even i need to be corrected and this one did it!:up:

[Gary]

Subman1,
Is there anything you will question that comes out of a jew or
Washington DC for that matter? All those tiny defenseless countries
we attack had absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely
virtuous.
America was duped in to fighting everyone of them with the only
exception of the police action in Grenada.
I personally believe the only hope for the few remaining independent
nations of the world (Islamic or what ever) is for them to posses their
own nuclear arsenal. That is the only way to keep the jew puppet traitors
in DC from attacking them as well.

[JSLTIGER]

I find it more than interesting over the response to what I
have said. I read all kinds of things negative towards Islam
but when I, (being definitely no jew sycophant) mention a
perspective which is forbidden on the jew media, some of you
respond as if I am doing something criminal or immoral or at
least taboo. And in the midst of all this is the casual bluster
of nuking a nation of Iran. Astonishing!
Consider this: We would have no problem with Iran if it were
not for the jews lusting for the murder of it's leader.

Subman1,
Is there anything you will question that comes out of a jew or
Washington DC for that matter? All those tiny defenseless countries
we attack had absolutely nothing to do with anything even remotely
virtuous.
America was duped in to fighting everyone of them with the only
exception of the police action in Grenada.
I personally believe the only hope for the few remaining independent
nations of the world (Islamic or what ever) is for them to posses their
own nuclear arsenal. That is the only way to keep the jew puppet traitors
in DC from attacking them as well.


I would not dignify Gary's posts with a response at all, except that to ignore them would be to passively approve of them, which I can not and will not do. My response is in the spirit of Hillel, a great Jewish philosopher who once asked, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I?"

You are out of your mind Gary. To call the media and government "Jew-controlled" and "Jew puppet traitors?" On what basis do you make this claim? Furthermore, if what you say is true, then why would the media constantly run stories criticizing Israel and its policies? If anything, the media seems to have an anti-Israeli slant to it.

However, you don't stop there. You blame it not on Israel, but instead on "the Jews." It seems to me that you, sir, are an anti-semite. I would like to see proof of this mass Jewish conspiracy that you seem to believe in. Do you have any evidence, or are your claims the BS everyone knows them to be?

I think that our problems with Iran stem more from the fact that the government is a radical Islamic entity...or have you found a way to blame Israel for the 1980 Iranian Hostage Crisis as well?
Consider this: The Mossad is one of the most effective and efficient intelligence agencies on the face of the Earth. If Israel wanted Ahmadenijad dead, don't you think they would have eliminated him before now?



Who grovels for Jew approval? Is this Gary happy land? Most Americans are pretty much nuetral to the subject, but we also feel we must defend them if they are attacked unfairly. Same as with any other country. When Afganistan was unfairly attacked, the US stepped in and delivered arms. Vietnam, same issue. Grenada, same issue. Kuwait, same issue. Korea, same issue. Even Somalia is along the same lines. Need I go on with this list?

THe point is, to suggest we favor one country over the other is not correct. To suggest that the Jewish state controls ours is not correct. The more correct answer is that we support them because they have been subjected to crimes against their state! Quite frankly, I am not quite sure why they haven't done something against the rockets flying into their country for no reason. Hezbollah just decides to launch here and there and I don't quite get why everyone is upset that Isreal got ticked off and bombed the hell out of them??? Yeah, I'd have to side with Isreal on that one. If some country allowed rockets to be fired into mine indescriminently, I'd have my ass up on Capitol Hill demanding answers as to why we didn't retaliate! Someone kidnaps our soldiers, same thing. I don't understand why some countries claim they responded too harshly. I am wondering personally, why they didn't respond with more force???

-S

I can't help but to agree with you Subman. I also believe that Israel has the support of the U.S. because they have proven themselves to be good allies led by the only (stable) democratic government in the Middle East (save present-day Iraq).

What I have been dying to know is this:
The whole situation this summer was sparked by the capture of IDF Cpl. Gilad Shalit by Hamas forces in Gaza.

Let us assume that both the Israeli government and the Palestinian government are indeed legitimate government bodies (despite the fact that the Palestinians govern a nation that does not technically exist [yet]). Under this assumption, Hamas was legitimately elected by the Palestinian people to represent them. However, when forces of a legitimate government invade another nation and kidnap one of their soldiers, isn't that tantamount to a declaration of war? I certainly think so. Therefore, I can't help but wonder why the world has an issue with Israel defending itself, just as any nation of the world would have done in Israel's position.

[ASWnut101]

Gary, Have you met Avon Lady yet?:hmm:

And name a "tiny defensless country" we've attacked.

[August]

I hate nazis.

[ASWnut101]

+1








http://www.fs2004.com/forums/uploads/av-9357.gifhttp://www.fs2004.com/forums/uploads/av-9357.gifhttp://www.fs2004.com/forums/uploads/av-9357.gif (needed those to get atleast 5 characters)

[Gizzmoe]

Guys, FYI, I´ve sent Gary a PM, he has 24 hours to send me a statement.

[ASWnut101]

hey, gizzmoe:

where did my sig go?:cry: :hmm:

glad you took action on gary, though......:up:

[Gizzmoe]

hey, gizzmoe:

where did my sig go?:cry: :hmm:

Dunno, if you haven´t deleted it Neal probably has. It was broken for a while and you didn´t fix it.

[micky1up]

Iran is in an extremely strong position, and I tend to think of them as one of the most dominant and influential powers on the globe. We may not like it, but currently I see no way to seriously hurt them without using nukes. they are close to invulnerable as long as China and India do not let them down - and why should they...??? As a matter of fact - we depend on them - while they do not need the West that much. For what should they need the West? Every oil they do not sell to the West, will happily bought by India and China.

If you want to bully someone, make sure you have solid stand. In this, we have not.

That's why I say time and again: without making it our absolute top priority to become independent from Muslim oil, all our actions about Iran, Islam, hezbollah - only is hot air. We can't afford it another fifty years to depend on them selling us oil (or not). We can't depend anymore to live at the receiving end of these incredible vulnerable lifelines of tankers and pipelines and trading lines that are so very open to attack and shutting-down by anyone who likes to do that.

And the Iranians know that! As an Israeli security expert recently pointed out in a German interview, Arabs are proud of their traditions and thus tend to act stereotypic and repeat the same old mistakes time and again, but the Persians are no Arabs, and are smart thinkers and clever minds - which makes them an extremely dangerous enemy.

Also mind you that it falls into this scheme that the most dominant crisis in the ME is not around Israel, but the confrontation between Shia and Sunni Islam. Sunni Arabs fear Shia Iran very much. the conflict is one millennium old, and never was cold. Sunnis have understood that Israel is no threat to their regimes. But Iran-supported Shia Islam is a very extreme danger to them. Have you noticed how relatively silent the Sunni states were about Israel trying to crack Iran-backed Shia Hezbollah? ;) ;) ;)

The inner conflict of an enemy is our benefit. i wonder why we do not start to think about how we could widen and exploit the gap within Islam, economically, culturally, financially, politically, by every means available. Oh wait, that is not considered to be polite, I suppose. Oh dear... Once Shias will believe somebody - no matter who it is - who is telling them he is their hidden Iman who returned to them, their in a way "defensive" understanding of jihad will switch to unlimted attack mode (that'S why they are waiting so desperately). Then we will see Islam in uncontrolled charge. we can't afford to let such a person rise to that accepted status of being their long-awaited Imam. Ahmadinejad is referring to that tradition - that's why he gains so many sympathies.



and if your oil companys hadnt bought out every non petrol car design to stop them being made then you wouldnt be subjected to having to buy eastern oil short term thinking on part of the west, stop buying there oil crash their market and watch em come running arms open

[ASWnut101]

but i don't think the flags were broke......
I was gunna do the fs2004 thing today.


oh well, do you have the site for the flags again?

[Gizzmoe]

but i don't think the flags were broke......
You leeched the images and that site no longer allowed that.

oh well, do you have the site for the flags again?
No, sorry.

[Skybird]

and if your oil companys hadnt bought out every non petrol car design to stop them being made then you wouldnt be subjected to having to buy eastern oil short term thinking on part of the west, stop buying there oil crash their market and watch em come running arms open

That sounds a bit confused, or I have no idea what you want to say. Not only european car manufacturers have tried to hinder the developement of alternative cars, but American and Japanese car makers as well. Today, manufacturers from all three continents produce them nevertheless.

European cars on average are far more energy efficient than the huge american designs that seem to be the more proud the more litres they consume per 100 km. And if I were American and would come from the one nation that consumes more oil per head and spends more gasoline per car than anyone else, I wouldn' be so easy to accuse others of wasting oil:

the US (5% of world population) consumes 25% of global oil production (EU 18%, China 9%, Japan 6%)

US also consumes 24% of global gas production (EU 17%, Russia 15%, others 23%). I do not list all the other single nations that stand apart from the category "others".

The US is by far not the global leader of sparing energy and reducing energy- and traffic-caused CO2-emissions. (CO2 emission from energy production alone: US 21%, EU 12%, Japan 4%, China 16%, others 37%). In traffic-caused C02-emissions, the relative lead of the US is even higher.

All data given by "BP statistical review 2005", and backed up by "Deutsche Bank Energy-Related Research 2005" which I both have in print.

You also are wrong about the impact on russia if europe no longer buys their oil. Both Russia and Iran, in that case, would simply sell it to China and India in that case, which wouldn't hurt them a bit. Both countries (China and India) are desperately seeking to buy more than their current shares, for their exploding economies urgently need it.

Putin just today has totally rejected any European (united!) demands to be more reliable as a business partner in energy questions and accept obligatory delivery guarantees.

Remember that I say time and again that we must become independent from oil, in general, and Muslim oil in special?

[CB..]

i know this is drifting of topic but it completely msytifies me...
we know we are running out of Oil...we know Oil is absolutely essentail to our society in ways we can't even be bothered to think about...we know Oil is both fundamental to the heart of the economy and at the heart of world politics..not to mention the military situation...

yet there is no mention of finding an alternative..other than the vague notion that some one some where will "think of something"...

Oil IS our civilisation....without it we can't even scratch our own noses..

unless some sort of substitue can be quickly found ..one that will slot into the space left by oil with little or no alteration of current technology,
or the entire technological tree will simply vanish...requiring a vast and un endingly radical change to our way of life

i know it is cool to dismiss the frailtys of our current situation...

but i for one would feel a whole lot better if there were some attempt being made to re-assure the public on this subject...

the fact that little or no re-assurance is being proffered by our governments...is deeply deeply perverse

lets face it if they had the soloution then they would have told us..(if it was at all pleasant)

[waste gate]

i know this is drifting of topic but it completely msytifies me...
we know we are running out of Oil...we know Oil is absolutely essentail to our society in ways we can't even be bothered to think about...we know Oil is both fundamental to the heart of the economy and at the heart of world politics..not to mention the military situation...

yet there is no mention of finding an alternative..other than the vague notion that some one some where will "think of something"...

Oil IS our civilisation....without it we can't even scratch our own noses..

unless some sort of substitue can be quickly found ..one that will slot into the space left by oil with little or no alteration of current technology,
or the entire technological tree will simply vanish...requiring a vast and un endingly radical change to our way of life

i know it is cool to dismiss the frailtys of our current situation...

but i for one would feel a whole lot better if there were some attempt being made to re-assure the public on this subject...

the fact that little or no re-assurance is being proffered by our governments...is deeply deeply perverse

lets face it if they had the soloution then they would have told us..(if it was at all pleasant)

Yes it's off topic and perhaps a new thread is waranted. Until then I have a bit of food for thought.

"Despite the continued growth in global consumption of petroleum, proven oil reserves have increased steadily over the past twenty years, in large part because oil companies have revised their estimates of reserves in known fields. According to the Oil & Gas Journal’s production estimates, during the period of 1970 to 2000, 680 Gb of oil was produced, but 980 Gb of reserves were added. Under old technologies, oil companies could only retrieve about 35 percent of the oil in place; with enhanced technologies, including directional drilling, companies have increased that amount and with new technologies, it is believed that it is possible to extract up to 65 percent of the oil in the field. Moreover, three and four dimensional seismic exploration technology has led to revised estimates of oil that can be economically extracted. Reserves are defined by economic as well as geological considerations; one reason that reserves increase is that companies do not invest funding in exploration and enhanced recovery until there is a demand and the prices of oil warrants the expenditure."

[CB..]

Yes it's off topic and perhaps a new thread is waranted. Until then I have a bit of food for thought.

"Despite the continued growth in global consumption of petroleum, proven oil reserves have increased steadily over the past twenty years, in large part because oil companies have revised their estimates of reserves in known fields. According to the Oil & Gas Journal’s production estimates, during the period of 1970 to 2000, 680 Gb of oil was produced, but 980 Gb of reserves were added. Under old technologies, oil companies could only retrieve about 35 percent of the oil in place; with enhanced technologies, including directional drilling, companies have increased that amount and with new technologies, it is believed that it is possible to extract up to 65 percent of the oil in the field. Moreover, three and four dimensional seismic exploration technology has led to revised estimates of oil that can be economically extracted. Reserves are defined by economic as well as geological considerations; one reason that reserves increase is that companies do not invest funding in exploration and enhanced recovery until there is a demand and the prices of oil warrants the expenditure."

ok thanks for that....this is certainly news to me:hmm:

[Yahoshua]

As skybird pointed out, there IS a solution getting off the oil IV but special interest groups (like Big Oil and automakers) are blocking the progress for as long as they can do so.

So they'll whine and delay to make the oil stay until it's gone, then they'll sell us "new" technology that is completely independent of oil.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes it's off topic and perhaps a new thread is waranted. Until then I have a bit of food for thought.

"Despite the continued growth in global consumption of petroleum, proven oil reserves have increased steadily over the past twenty years, in large part because oil companies have revised their estimates of reserves in known fields. According to the Oil & Gas Journal’s production estimates, during the period of 1970 to 2000, 680 Gb of oil was produced, but 980 Gb of reserves were added. Under old technologies, oil companies could only retrieve about 35 percent of the oil in place; with enhanced technologies, including directional drilling, companies have increased that amount and with new technologies, it is believed that it is possible to extract up to 65 percent of the oil in the field. Moreover, three and four dimensional seismic exploration technology has led to revised estimates of oil that can be economically extracted. Reserves are defined by economic as well as geological considerations; one reason that reserves increase is that companies do not invest funding in exploration and enhanced recovery until there is a demand and the prices of oil warrants the expenditure."

ok thanks for that....this is certainly news to me:hmm:

From Oil and Gas Journal's own 'about us' page (http://www.ogj.com/aboutus/about.cfm):

The Oil & Gas Journal, first published in 1902, is the world's most widely read petroleum industry publication. Each week the Journal delivers the latest international oil and gas news; analysis of issues and events; practical technology for design, operation and maintenance; and important statistics on international markets and activity. The Oil & Gas Journal is designed to meet the needs of engineers, oil management and executives throughout the oil and gas industry. Since 1910, The PennWell Petroleum Group has been the industry leader for coverage of and service to the worldwide petroleum industry. Its foundation magazines are Oil & Gas Journal (http://www.ogj.com/), Offshore Magazine (http://www.offshore-mag.com/), Oil, Gas & Petrochem Equipment (http://www.ogpe.com/), Oil & Gas Financial Journal (http://www.ogfj.com/), LNG Observer (http://www.ogj.com/lngobserver/index.cfm)and The Petroleum Buyers' Guide. (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/buyersguide/index.cfm) The group also produces targeted e-Newsletters, hosts global conferences and exhibitions (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/events/index.cfm), seminars and forums, directories and technical books (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/bookstore/index.cfm), print and electronic databases, surveys and maps (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/resourcecenter/maps.cfm).

PennWell Petroleum clearly has a horse in this race. I wouldn't take industry statements, especially those from the oil industry, at face value. We need to get off of oil.

[CB..]

:yep: i've had a scan round the net and sadly there are as many differing "officail" opinions on the situation as there are concerning the global climate situation...

the really irritating thing is i can remember that both the Climate debate AND the Oil debate has been going on since the 70's and both are still considered trivial and un-important....

can't resist quoting Ambassador Molari from Babylon Five ..

"ahhh..arrogance AND stupidity in the same package...how terribly economical of you.."

now our governments may well have it all under control..(:huh: )
but if they do they sure aint telling us what they have up their sleeves
i don't care what they say in public...it's all just theatre and spin....it's what they might be saying/planning in private that worrys me...:dead:

[waste gate]

Yes it's off topic and perhaps a new thread is waranted. Until then I have a bit of food for thought.

"Despite the continued growth in global consumption of petroleum, proven oil reserves have increased steadily over the past twenty years, in large part because oil companies have revised their estimates of reserves in known fields. According to the Oil & Gas Journal’s production estimates, during the period of 1970 to 2000, 680 Gb of oil was produced, but 980 Gb of reserves were added. Under old technologies, oil companies could only retrieve about 35 percent of the oil in place; with enhanced technologies, including directional drilling, companies have increased that amount and with new technologies, it is believed that it is possible to extract up to 65 percent of the oil in the field. Moreover, three and four dimensional seismic exploration technology has led to revised estimates of oil that can be economically extracted. Reserves are defined by economic as well as geological considerations; one reason that reserves increase is that companies do not invest funding in exploration and enhanced recovery until there is a demand and the prices of oil warrants the expenditure."

ok thanks for that....this is certainly news to me:hmm:

From Oil and Gas Journal's own 'about us' page (http://www.ogj.com/aboutus/about.cfm):

The Oil & Gas Journal, first published in 1902, is the world's most widely read petroleum industry publication. Each week the Journal delivers the latest international oil and gas news; analysis of issues and events; practical technology for design, operation and maintenance; and important statistics on international markets and activity. The Oil & Gas Journal is designed to meet the needs of engineers, oil management and executives throughout the oil and gas industry. Since 1910, The PennWell Petroleum Group has been the industry leader for coverage of and service to the worldwide petroleum industry. Its foundation magazines are Oil & Gas Journal (http://www.ogj.com/), Offshore Magazine (http://www.offshore-mag.com/), Oil, Gas & Petrochem Equipment (http://www.ogpe.com/), Oil & Gas Financial Journal (http://www.ogfj.com/), LNG Observer (http://www.ogj.com/lngobserver/index.cfm)and The Petroleum Buyers' Guide. (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/buyersguide/index.cfm) The group also produces targeted e-Newsletters, hosts global conferences and exhibitions (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/events/index.cfm), seminars and forums, directories and technical books (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/bookstore/index.cfm), print and electronic databases, surveys and maps (http://www.pennwellpetroleumgroup.com/resourcecenter/maps.cfm).

PennWell Petroleum clearly has a horse in this race. I wouldn't take industry statements, especially those from the oil industry, at face value. We need to get off of oil.


I don't think The PennWell Petroleum Group is pumpimp or selling oil or oil products.
They seem to be a publishing company dedicated to publishing information and analysis for the oil production industry. Much like Jane's, Aviation Week and Space Technology, New England Journal of Medicine and Teacher Education Quarterly are for their respective industries. Trade publications only report on the industry. So as much as the afore mentioned groups have a horse in the race, then I guess you are correct.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't think The PennWell Petroleum Group is pumpimp or selling oil or oil products.
They seem to be a publishing company dedicated to publishing information and analysis for the oil production industry. Much like Jane's, Aviation Week and Space Technology, New England Journal of Medicine and Teacher Education Quarterly are for their respective industries. Trade publications only report on the industry. So as much as the afore mentioned groups have a horse in the race, then I guess you are correct.

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry. You will not see Jane's Aviation Week and Space Technology disussing the hard facts of relevence in the space industry. You will not see Teacher Education Quarterly discussing the ugly truth of education in urban America. You will not see Penwell discussing the truth of big oil's impact on society, government and the environment. It is simply not in their best interest. As such, I would be very skeptical of their statistics.

[waste gate]

I don't think The PennWell Petroleum Group is pumpimp or selling oil or oil products.
They seem to be a publishing company dedicated to publishing information and analysis for the oil production industry. Much like Jane's, Aviation Week and Space Technology, New England Journal of Medicine and Teacher Education Quarterly are for their respective industries. Trade publications only report on the industry. So as much as the afore mentioned groups have a horse in the race, then I guess you are correct.

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry. You will not see Jane's Aviation Week and Space Technology disussing the hard facts of relevence in the space industry. You will not see Teacher Education Quarterly discussing the ugly truth of education in urban America. You will not see Penwell discussing the truth of big oil's impact on society, government and the environment. It is simply not in their best interest. As such, I would be very skeptical of their statistics.

Nor is it in their best interest to lie.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't think The PennWell Petroleum Group is pumpimp or selling oil or oil products.
They seem to be a publishing company dedicated to publishing information and analysis for the oil production industry. Much like Jane's, Aviation Week and Space Technology, New England Journal of Medicine and Teacher Education Quarterly are for their respective industries. Trade publications only report on the industry. So as much as the afore mentioned groups have a horse in the race, then I guess you are correct.

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry. You will not see Jane's Aviation Week and Space Technology disussing the hard facts of relevence in the space industry. You will not see Teacher Education Quarterly discussing the ugly truth of education in urban America. You will not see Penwell discussing the truth of big oil's impact on society, government and the environment. It is simply not in their best interest. As such, I would be very skeptical of their statistics.

Nor is it in their best interest to lie.

Heh. No, industry insiders never lie. Cigarette, anyone?

[waste gate]

I don't think The PennWell Petroleum Group is pumpimp or selling oil or oil products.
They seem to be a publishing company dedicated to publishing information and analysis for the oil production industry. Much like Jane's, Aviation Week and Space Technology, New England Journal of Medicine and Teacher Education Quarterly are for their respective industries. Trade publications only report on the industry. So as much as the afore mentioned groups have a horse in the race, then I guess you are correct.

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry. You will not see Jane's Aviation Week and Space Technology disussing the hard facts of relevence in the space industry. You will not see Teacher Education Quarterly discussing the ugly truth of education in urban America. You will not see Penwell discussing the truth of big oil's impact on society, government and the environment. It is simply not in their best interest. As such, I would be very skeptical of their statistics.

Nor is it in their best interest to lie.

Heh. No, industry insiders never lie. Cigarette, anyone?

So, insider medical publications (New England Journal of Medicine) are more reliable?

[Takeda Shingen]

So, insider medical publications (New England Journal of Medicine) are more reliable?

Did I say or insinuate this?

I said:

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry.

I thought that I stated my view on the matter in a very clear manner. I apologize if it was in any way vague.

[waste gate]

So, insider medical publications (New England Journal of Medicine) are more reliable?

Did I say or insinuate this?

I said:

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry.

I thought that I stated my view on the matter in a very clear manner. I apologize if it was in any way vague.

Did I say or insinuate this?
Yes you did.

Heh. No, industry insiders never lie. Cigarette, anyone?

[Takeda Shingen]

So, insider medical publications (New England Journal of Medicine) are more reliable?

Did I say or insinuate this?

I said:

Groups that take part in inside analysis are notorious for touting rosey claims regarding that industry.

I thought that I stated my view on the matter in a very clear manner. I apologize if it was in any way vague.

Did I say or insinuate this?
Yes you did.

Heh. No, industry insiders never lie. Cigarette, anyone?


My reference was to big tobacco, and it's claims, contrary to those of the Surgeon-General, that niccotine was, in fact, not addictive. It is a very similar position to the one that big oil finds itself in in this day, ie that oil production is not very harmful, and that oil supplies are plentiful. It is my belief that in the next decade, you will see a sort of backpeddling that you did with big tobacco.

Comparisons with the medical profession are not apt. Although responsible for various false claims, tobacco included, no one is looking to rid the world of doctors. Oil, however, is another matter. The industry needs to spin information to a much greater degree because of the much greater threat facing it. It boils down to a matter of self-preservation.

[waste gate]

Comparisons with the medical profession are not apt.

If you check back to your previous response you brought cigarettes and by implication the medical profession (and the legal profession for tha matter) into the discussion. So, if it isn't apt now then it wasn't when you brought it forth earlier.


contrary to those of the Surgeon-General


All the Surgeon-General warnings on my Marlboros claim adverse health effects, but nothing regarding addiction. I may agree with you regarding the addictive nature of nicotene. But this in no way removes the credibility of industry publications like those of The PennWell Petroleum Group.

Seems to me the most telling part of your last post is your anxiety regarding "big tobacco", big oil, big anything that you aren't part of. I suspect you also have issues with Detroit auto makers, Microsoft, the defence industry, the media, the State of Isreal, the Catholic Church and any other organization or business entity which isn't government controlled.

I don't wish to put words in your mouth or misjudge you and you are more than welcome to rebut any and all of the above if you so wish. But please, when you do rebut give an alternative that is viable, and won't place us back into the stoneage.
Also try to remember remember you cannot put the jeenie back into the box.

[MothBalls]

Jeeeeze, the verbage police have arrived and will be conducting investigations into your thoughts before you write them.

Which cigarette company do you work for?

[waste gate]

Jeeeeze, the verbage police have arrived and will be conducting investigations into your thoughts before you write them.


The verbage police sounds like more government.

PS I don't and never have worked for a cigarette company.

[Takeda Shingen]

Comparisons with the medical profession are not apt.

If you check back to your previous response you brought cigarettes and by implication the medical profession (and the legal profession for tha matter) into the discussion. So, if it isn't apt now then it wasn't when you brought it forth earlier.

So that's what I meant. Thank goodness that you were here to tell me.


contrary to those of the Surgeon-General


All the Surgeon-General warnings on my Marlboros claim adverse health effects, but nothing regarding addiction. I may agree with you regarding the addictive nature of nicotene. But this in no way removes the credibility of industry publications like those of The PennWell Petroleum Group.

That's not what I said. Stop with the semantics.

Seems to me the most telling part of your last post is your anxiety regarding "big tobacco", big oil, big anything that you aren't part of. I suspect you also have issues with Detroit auto makers, Microsoft, the defence industry, the media, the State of Isreal, the Catholic Church and any other organization or business entity which isn't government controlled.

You suspect too much, too often. Down, boy.


I don't wish to put words in your mouth or misjudge you.....

Then don't.

..... and you are more than welcome to rebut any and all of the above if you so wish. But please, when you do rebut give an alternative that is viable, and won't place us back into the stoneage.
Also try to remember remember you cannot put the jeenie back into the box.

You are too far outside for me to rebutt anything. I will not be drawn into semantics with you. Furthermore, alternatives are not required when offering critique. I do not have to have a personal and comprehensive energy plan when chastising the nature of the oil industry. Bad is bad, wrong is wrong. Conservatism, which is what this is really about; particularly Republican Conservatism, used to be about that. When it left, so did I. As it leaves this discussion, I follow suit.

Go ahead. Have your last word, but know that I won't bother reading it.