Germany - Poverty - Underclass

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,443075,00.html

the Social Democrat-aligned Friedrich Ebert Foundation released a study claiming that 6.5 million Germans live in poverty, without much prospect of improving their lot. That's 8 percent of all Germans. Disturbingly, that figure soars to 20 percent in the states that comprised the former East Germany. Those who fell below the poverty line in the study earned an average of just €424 per month. (...) In its report, the Friedrich Ebert Foundation placed the poverty line at €938 per month, less than 60 percent of the German average. (...) The study comes just a month after frustrated voters sent neo-Nazi politicians to a third German state legislature in the space of two years. The radical right has been rising in Germany along with unemployment -- a fact the Friedrich Ebert study alludes to with a reference to the poor's penchant for "authoritarian politics." (...) At the same time, though, the German underclass isn't just white: About 24 percent of all immigrants to Germany are poor. (...) the number of children in families that fall below the poverty line and receive social welfare payments has almost doubled since Hartz IV* was implemented in 2005. (...) The split between rich and poor has grown, too. The richest 10 percent of German households own a full 47 percent of the country's privately-held assets -- a rise of around 2 percent since 1998. Meanwhile, workers are falling behind in what they need to know in order to land a job. "Lack of training and long-term unemployment are extreme and typically German problems," (...) Members of the new underclass, says Frank Karl, lead author of the Friedrich-Ebert study, "feel like losers ... And the worst part is: When we ask whether they think their children will do any better, most of them say no."

* Hartz IV is the fourth phase of a program that has changed routines of the social welfare system and support for unemployed people. It was meant to motivate by increasing the pressure to accept job offers even if they were badly payed or were a work people did not want to pick, and it did so by - in parts very drastically - cutting fiancial aid. However, the part of the program that promised to offer better chances and more jobs - failed completely. People feel the pressure and the punishement, but not the promises for better chances and perspectives. Quite the opposite.

Since Hartz IV we have seen an immense increase in socalled 1 euro-Jobs (where those being supported by Hartz IV can work but receive only 1 Euro per hour - great basis for securing an existence) that were meant to get people into jobs in the hope that they will be taken over into regular jobs after some months once their employer has had this cheap tesing phase. However, a majoirty oc compnies has choosen to take a more capitalistic approach onto this part of the program: they accept to pay somebody only 1 Euro, and when he leaves (because he is not given a regular fee and secure job after several months) the just pick the next one. That way, even regular jobs becomes victims of the 1-Euro- jobs. Again, the politicieans have been naive enoiugh to think that the real big players in the industry and economy would play fair game - that many just would choose to exploit this obvious opportunity did not came to minds of our realistic polticians.

The irony, we had a comparable desaster roughly 7-8 years ago. Back then, of non-regular jobs that were picked by students, for example, there were around 150-180 thousand in Germany. Work was 10-20 hours per week, taxes could be avoided under certain circumstances (social insurcance as well), wages were around 9-13 D-Mark per hours. then came Schroeder with his SPD-interpretation social justice: they made social insurances for such jobs obligatory, nevertheless it was a fixed sum independent from the netto earning, so that people would pay into their future security (the money gets spend by the state in the same year and there are no reserves, so neither me nor anyone else will get a minimal pension from it - essentially the system is stealing money from unregular employees in a legalised modus vivendi.). For companies, the new model payed off well, and they did, what every polticians has rejected that it would happen: the scratched regular full time jobs nby the thousands, and replaced them with cheaper "mini-jobs" that produce lesser tax.income for the sate, does not helpt the individual to raise money for the future purpose of pensions, and killed jobs. the number of non-regular mini-jopbs exploded from 150 to over 750 thousand currently, tendency: raising.

I work in a mini-job myself, and additionally share one fifth of the incomes of small real estates my mother owns, which together gives me a monthly income of roughly 750-800 euros per month, of which netto around 350 euros is left after taxes and regular payments. By definition, I am "poor", but can live well because I do not pay regular rent (I live in my own appartment and only pay a monthly "Hausgeld" which is only one quarter of the previous rent), do not own a car, and have no children, family or a divorced ex-wife. If I would have to raise children, I would be a suicide-candidate. My future pension will be the full income from the real estates - I have no pension demands worth to be considered, and no life insurances or anything like that. So, all in all I call myself lucky, and can life on a reasonable modest, but fearless living standard.

but of the 78 people who studied in my semester, two years later a study by the Dekan of the university found that 31 of them had run into unemployment, never finding a job or gotten fired, with serious consequences for relationships with a partner and families. Over one third didn't make it.

The days of the glorious germa welfare system are long since gone. If outsiders mock about the German welfare as parasites sucking an naive communities lifeblood, I can only chuckle. From Berlin I know sicne years, from first hand (social worker I know personally from earlier times) that statistically every fifth child does not get one warm meal every three days at home, for the parents do not have the money, and that these kids are feeded by local initiaves and public kitchens.

It's becoming harsh and frosty over here - and for enough people that it can no longer be intentionally overseen.

And think about nthis - the economy takes things like minijobs and 1-Euro-Jobs for granted now, and think of it as regular jobs. If you want to correct this abuse in a couple of years - economical and job structures will already depend on these, so that you can'T remove them without doing damage.

The charm of globalisation. Will become much, much worse.

[August]

Oh....err, well, fix it then and stop bugging the rest of us about it. It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany...

[Skybird]

Aha. I recommend we also scratch all threats that have touched Denmark, England, France, australia, N-korea, Irak, Japan and China as well. It is not our business how local residents run their according countries.

Especially not when they are globally connected and at varying degrees are mutually depending on each other. :doh:

Best is we close down the complete general forum, for nothing that is said and done here is anyone else's business. ;)

[Coda]

For this I have no sympathy. I wouldn’t pay anyone a dime in unemployment benefits until every job vacancy has been filled. Period. Welfare should only be paid to those who are disabled an unable to work. Period. I don’t care what country it is.

I’ve seen many people just waste their lives away waiting for someone to wave a magic wand and make their life better. They wait for the government to make the situation better. They hope someday the world will change.

I came from a very poor family. I worked full time, many times 2-3 jobs during the summer, and 90% of my pay went to buying food for my family and paying the bills. The other 10% paid for my books and tuition. It took me eight years to get my first degree. Eight years of no free time, no luxuries, working chit jobs for chit pay.

20 years after graduation, I live a comfortable life now. So do my parents and the rest of my family. We made our lives better by being there for each other and helping each other through the rough times.

I don’t care where you are or how bad you think you have it. There is only one solution to make things better. Get off your ass and do something about it. There are no magic wands, no social programs, and no government officials that will help you.

The only thing you can count on to change your life is education and hard work.

[ASWnut101]

get off their lazy butt? Any money mucher in america would laugh it off if they heard that. I tottally agree with that. Reminds me of Hurricane Katrina. I didn't donate a penny to that "organization."

[Yahoshua]

Can't any of these people start their own "family business" ?

That's a way to get yourself employed.

[ASWnut101]

they are tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
lazy!

[Yahoshua]

Don't be too quick to label all of them lazy......my dad is in a similar position.

He's deaf and so he gets (well, did) SSI, however they're telling him he owes Uncle Sam money because he was trying to support himself and his family (ie. working at a job) while receiving SSI. My dad doesn't want to deal with University systems anymore so he decided to start a business, lo and behold, SSA wants him (and me and my sister) to cough up $136,000 (apparently they think I owe them $37,000). And if he gets a job they'll seize his paycheck before it even gets to him.

So his only means of operating a business that (hopefully) will become strong enough to support the family has to be filed under my mothers' name.

I have no choice but to either start a business under her name as well, or simply live on the mercy of an employer. Doesn't seem like my sister will have much choice either.


So you also have to consider that some part of that population isn't poor by choice.

[The Noob]

Coda and ASW,

Work work work work work work work work work work.....

Thats all you think of, aren't you? You are working horses with joy in life.

The thruth is that you can work like hell and still be with nearly no money. If you even find a job. I am sure i won't work myself to death in a ridiculusly underpaid work or a unacceptable one, like toilet cleaning.

No, Welfare is good that way it is.

Your Dream-Paroles are nice to hear, but simply do not work for some, out of different reasons.

Skybird,

My father gets about 500, and it's really hard sometimes...:damn:

But we found ways.

[ASWnut101]

He's deaf and.....

thats what the exceptions should be! like someone else said in this thread already, everyone but the health impared should not get the benifits. sorry if it sounded kind of wrong...

[Yahoshua]

I understand, just wanted to put a heads-up sign cuz I wasn't sure which way the wind was gonna go.

[ASWnut101]

cool.:cool:

[Bum]

Oh....err, well, fix it then and stop bugging the rest of us about it. It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany...

:rotfl:

[Bum]

Coda and ASW,

Work work work work work work work work work work.....

Thats all you think of, aren't you? You are working horses with joy in life.

The thruth is that you can work like hell and still be with nearly no money. If you even find a job. I am sure i won't work myself to death in a ridiculusly underpaid work or a unacceptable one, like toilet cleaning.

No, Welfare is good that way it is.



But we found ways.


Someone has to clean the toilets, right? So u are saying you are too good to do it? It is right you should get welfare and let the other man get a job cleaning the toilets? And then, of course, the toilet cleaning man has to pay taxes on his small salary, taxes that pay for your welfare... NOT right, mate :nope:

[Skybird]

For this I have no sympathy.

For what?

-----

It is extremly cheap and mean rethoric to tell people that everyone who get'S social aid is a lazy parasite. There are certainly people who think that taking aid money gets them more money than if they would work regularly. However, that vast majority are honest and often desperate people WHO DO NOT FIND A F###ING JOB. That is the problem: to few regular jobs.

the other problem is that more and more jobs are created that delete regular jobs and turn them into minijpobs and 1-Euro-Job. Being undemanding is one thing. Doing full work for one euro per hour is another thing in the main: the shameless abuse of those who alraedy are weak and are in a position where they cannot defend themselves. in that case, it is modern, legalised slavery. Of course sometimes, in some jobs that are not only "mechanic" work, but in any way give employees an idealistic reward (mand jobs in the social sector, for example), it is possible that some people accept one euro, because they find additional compensation or satisfaction in the special job they do. However, ideals do not pay your bills. I myself even engaged myself even for free in several social community projects, over years, doing what I have learned. However, that should be regarded as a private engagement, and not as a regular job.

Fair paymeent for fair work. If somebody spends all his days and time to work for a company, then he should deserve more than just a slave's wage. Where does it lead when a national economy more and more depends on such extreme cheap labour...? Who of you does hard work, raises 4 o'clock in the morning, has a 12 or 14 hour shift - for less than one dollar per hours, and 400 dollars per month being payed by the state as social aid?

for me it is a principle question, the answer to which decides if our communities (depending on healzhty relations between spending sand incomes, depending on taxes) can financially survive. such extreme low-wage job are simply unacceptable.

Some of you seem to have completely misunderstand me. I did not mourn for myself, or complained. I gave my own exmaple only to illustrate that accoprding to the standards of that study, I would be regarded as "poor", and can only live by the money I have per month because I am freed from some regular monthly bills that people usually have (car, family, rent for an appartment). so, ti was not about me, if you thought that. really, I live relatively happy and free of greater sorrows as long as i do not become crazy in spendings, and I do know that on a modest level my future and my age is safe, so again: i do not complain, you understood me wrong.

Read that article again, and what I said about children poverty, and then dare to tell me that all that is to be ignored and the guilt and responesebility of adult people that always only are too lazy. You are talking about several MILLION people you declare collectively as somewhat criminals. there is abuse, yes. But it is not the rule. If you think different, proove it before offending millions of people by calling them betrayers. The better part of the affected are desperately struggling with all power they have - only to see things not improving. It is detoriating since many years now.

I do not even try to go into the health perspective of things.

So, "no parasites!", yes. But also - "no predators!" , please. If a manager gets a 100% raise in wages after having kicked 5000 workers out of their job, saying that the company is bad off, this is shameless, at best. Such a imoral bastard would deserve the sudden loss of all his teeth instead.

[The Noob]

Someone has to clean the toilets, right?
right.

So u are saying you are too good to do it?
Yes.

It is right you should get welfare and let the other man get a job cleaning the toilets?
Someone has to. And i am handycapped in this kind of stuff. I puke myself if i see anything like a really dirty toilet.

And then, of course, the toilet cleaning man has to pay taxes on his small salary, taxes that pay for your welfare... NOT right, mate :nope:
No, it's not right. But it's my only chance. To still be able to eat something in the evening, thats what i mean.

I agree with most of skybirds ideas on this matter.

[Spoon 11th]

Just destroy computers and tractors. Then everybody will have plenty of work to do again.

[Skybird]

Or flatten a country by something like WWII. there is a reason why in Germany there was a Wirtschaftswunder - plenty of stuff needed to get build. Well, that has changed a bit.

I avoid going into town for the most. Seeing all this many crap stuff being for sale just makes me sick, and angry. Priorities of many people are seriously flawed, I think. Adn when they start to become unhappy about their lifes, they end up talking to me :lol: I only visit the city for work anymore.

Anyone knowing these two wonderful movies, "Fight Club" and "American Psycho" (no america-bashing intended) ? ;) Exaggerating things a bit, maybe, but there is some truth in their analysis of the emptiness of modern living style.

[TteFAboB]

Demand every German politician to read the 2006 Nobel Prize in Economics: http://www.columbia.edu/~esp2/lowwage.pdf

Kill the welfare system and substitute it for low-wage subsidies. But not just that, do the whole thing. You either go for "capitalism for the many", "one man capitalist" or you don't, or you go for capitalism for the few, for special groups, for the already powerful and people with political connections only while hanging the rest on social security.

Quickest way to solve your problem Sybird: nuke the Bundestag. Really, the Nobel of Economics is useless here. Do you think any coalition would have the strength ot even conceive accepting any policy that empowers the individual and lessens his dependence on the state, which becomes a mere servant supposed to only intervene where necessary instead of guiding and deciding the entire lives of its subjects, I mean, vassals, I mean, cattle, damn, I mean, people?

[Yahoshua]

Perhaps what is more disturbing as a root cause of this is the fact that we are increasingly (Europeans and Americans alike) are becoming a throwaway society.

We use something until it doesn't work, and then we throw it away and get a new one to replace it. Most people don't even bother fixing things themselves.

When a person is unusable, we throw them to the old peoples home. Same concept, and it's becoming more and more ingrained in our society.

Not only that, but corporations are increasingly becoming profit driven.....and to what end?

What is possibly gained from making more profits than you need? Aside from saving up for a rainy day or engaging in risky scientific adventures, all that money is going into the pockets of the selfish. When it really belongs in the circulation of the national economy where there will be less chance for poverty to take hold.

I suppose we could begin by instituting the Jubilee law every 50 years.

[Skybird]

TteFAboB,

I know what you mean, but neither do I see the US model as being superior or less conflicting (you have the same problems of vast ammounts of the population being poor although working terribly long per week, you just deal with the consequences of this in a different way than european nations do, you leave assisting them to a non-obligatory, voluntary action of the individual, and if there is nobody willing, then that is the poor man's bad luck, while european nations tend to make it a collective obligation not to leave those that are too weak behind, we do not believe in the principle of leaving it to voluntary engagement alone), nor am I so easily willing to sacrifice the existence of millions of people and families and even doom their children - because that would happen if you change it heave-ho. It also is no remedy to the future, becasue the even lower wage levels in the Eastern and Asian countries so far are posing a challenge neither europe nor the US have found an answer to that is different from protectionism and locking national markets, also with regard to third world countries. Also, there are incredibly powerful plutocratic elites in place today - I say that liberal trade on the grounds of fair and equal chances for all is an illusion today (not even to mention that for historical reasons nations and people do not have the same starting conditions). just look at our economical relations and conditions with nations in africa and middle and South America.

america taditonally is capitalistic. But it also uses to ignore the enormous social shadowside it has given birth to within it's own borders.

and next people complain why there are slums and ghettos, street crime and youth gangs, violance and jungle laws.

If you think all this are totally different things and themes, you better think twice. most things in this world are connected to most other things.

[Bum]

Someone has to clean the toilets, right?
right.

So u are saying you are too good to do it?
Yes.

It is right you should get welfare and let the other man get a job cleaning the toilets?
Someone has to. And i am handycapped in this kind of stuff. I puke myself if i see anything like a really dirty toilet.

And then, of course, the toilet cleaning man has to pay taxes on his small salary, taxes that pay for your welfare... NOT right, mate :nope:
No, it's not right. But it's my only chance. To still be able to eat something in the evening, thats what i mean.

I agree with most of skybirds ideas on this matter.

I see. I do appreciate you have a good sense of humor, though (in other threads). We may be friends if we met. But I would not like the idea of working every day while you sit at home watching tv and surfing the net, and me paying for it.

[SubSerpent]

Just destroy computers and tractors. Then everybody will have plenty of work to do again.


There is truth to this! I just finished a term paper on the "Similarities of Humans and Computers".

The Theory...

God made man in the image of himself.

Man kills God.

Man makes computers in the image of himself.

So the question that remains to be seen is, "Will computers kill man? Probably. Considering all the above and for the fact that God said man would kill himself.

I don't think the "Terminator" movie is too far off base. I don't believe in all the time travel aspects and that (a good Arnold) will come back in time to save humankind, but I do believe that the movie is metaphorically correct in saying that man and his advancements in computer technology will lead to the demise of all life on Earth. It's in our blood to be so foolish.

All these jobs are quickly being replaced by machines. The military is a perfect example of several organizations that are downsizing jobs and replacing personnel with computers.

This is happening in the civilian world as well. My wife is a 411 operator and now computers answer the phones and take 95% of the calls. She is still employed (for now) as long as computers can't answer 100% of calls without or with limited failure. How long will it be until computers are able to make up that last 5% effectively? Probably not long and my wife will end up getting laid off. The only people who will be employed will be people who work on computers or maintain them. This is the first step that man is becomin a slave to a machine. All a computer mechanic is, is a slave to a computer or machine. Think about it.

If a woman goes to a nail salon and asks for a manicure, the person doing her nails is a slave to her.

If a man changes tires on a car, he is a slave to that car.

Of course these are examples of people making money for their slavery.


Now pollute the world with 100% (sure-proof) machines that can do it all. There would be NO WORK for man. There would be NO MONEY for man. Without money how will man be able to buy food, clothes, shelter?

What happens then?

We starve or we destroy the machines.

Or will the machines detroy us in our attempt? Considering they are 100% effective at what they do, I'd say they are going to win.

[Coda]

It is extremly cheap and mean rethoric to tell people that everyone who get'S social aid is a lazy parasite.


Who said that?

[Yahoshua]

Machines still have to be fixed.

[Skybird]

Perhaps what is more disturbing as a root cause of this is the fact that we are increasingly (Europeans and Americans alike) are becoming a throwaway society.

We use something until it doesn't work, and then we throw it away and get a new one to replace it. Most people don't even bother fixing things themselves.

When a person is unusable, we throw them to the old peoples home. Same concept, and it's becoming more and more ingrained in our society.


Another symptom of one and the same state of our culture. It all are symptoms of one and the same crisis.

Not only that, but corporations are increasingly becoming profit driven.....and to what end?
It has always been like that. Critically it only becomes when profit craving demands the freedom to grab profits at the costs of vital community structures, that holds commnites together. the lethal competition that seeks monopoles by wiping out rivals, at all cost. Here it adds general power to the immdiate financial profit. Competion must not be bad and can be a motivation (the geography of europe encouraged very strong competition over the cneturies -. the result was the most advanced and intellectually superior civilization mankind has ever seen - but this competition came at a price: oftejn it turned into wars).

Every competition needs to know limitations, like in sports you do not seriously try to kill the opposing team, but simply "ritually" defeat it. That concept is not known in economics. In Germany i see it turning city centres and shopping environments into monocultures. Chain stores dominate. Single sellers become rare.

Hehe, this thread already covers a wide spectrum, doesn't it!? :lol:

[SubSerpent]

Machines still have to be fixed.

Machines will be able to fix each other.

Man in his attempt at making the perfect world is going to be the end of us all. We have rushed in life way too quickly. This is not just an American thing. This is a world wide epidemic.

[Coda]

but I do believe that the movie is metaphorically correct in saying that man and his advancements in computer technology will lead to the demise of all life on Earth. It's in our blood to be so foolish.


This is my biggest fear. However, I don't think it will be a machine. I think it will be a biological or checmical weapon, or an unintentional weapon.

We experiment with so many things we don't understand. It won't take much to mutate a virus or bacteria that suddenly becomes deadly and spreads faster than we can eradicate it.

It would be ironic if the only animals that survive the bird flu are the birds.

[Coda]

This is happening in the civilian world as well. My wife is a 411 operator and now computers answer the phones and take 95% of the calls. She is still employed (for now) as long as computers can't answer 100% of calls without or with limited failure. How long will it be until computers are able to make up that last 5% effectively? Probably not long and my wife will end up getting laid off. The only people who will be employed will be people who work on computers or maintain them. This is the first step that man is becomin a slave to a machine. All a computer mechanic is, is a slave to a computer or machine. Think about it.

The factory of the future will be filled with machines producing everything we need.

There will be 2 living beings in the factory.

A man and a dog.


The mans job will be to feed the dog.

The dogs job will be to keep the man away from the machines.

[Yahoshua]

:lol:


Machines can't fix eachother yet.....

And Prior to the 1960s' (for American companies anyway) the profit drive was not as important as the desire to produce quality made products. It seem that from 1960-1970 Corporate America underwent a change of leadership (a new generation taking the reins), and geared the industries wholly toward profit driven sales at the cost of quality.

Wasn't always like that......:nope:

[SubSerpent]

The irony of it all is almost too much.


Take Bill Gates for example. Here is a man who has billions of dollars. He's one of the richest men in the world (right now). However, he is working against himself in a way. With all the new technology his company is creating, people are losing their jobs over. When people lose their jobs, they have no money to buy his product. If they don't buy his product, then his billions will slowly disappear as well as his company. If his products led to the extinction of all jobs in the world, there would be no value in any money. Then his billions would be worthless.

This is most likely not going to happen in any of our lifetimes, but we are beginning to see the early stages of it and we will always be looked at as the generation(s) that led to the demise of mankind. I'd estimate this could all happen by the year 3000 A.D. though. Perhaps even earlier and considering mankind does not start a nuclear war and that people are still inventing more and more powerful computers and machines with more sophisticated A.I..

[TteFAboB]

Skybirdo-san,

Forget about any "US model", we'll keep it to common sense here, the "human model". :D

Business Management schools, who's currently occupying them? I don't know but if I had to bet I'd say there are probably a few or even many BA professors in Germany preaching about the wonders of the Chinese model, the perfection of Chinese factories and glorifying the great businessmen who are making success in China. It's like Jean-Paul Sartre, but on reverse! This happens elsewhere, I doubt Germany is an exception. These schools need to be "liberated" or re-occupied by at least ONE good professor so that the students can find at least one good example to follow, a "hero" (in the old virtuous sense of the word), otherwise the graduates who are going to sit on directors board in the future, hold voting shares or sit in the CEO chair start believing that the system doesn't matter, they should only care about doing business, making money. Of course the system matters! But corner one of these idiots against the wall, confront him with moral dilemmas, try to squeeze some philosophy out of him. You won't get anything, they're empty shells (God bless the exceptions) who were trained by repetition. That's exactly the case with George Soros. Far from being a genius of evil, he's just a simple man with alot of money pretending to be an intellectual who is manipulated by intellectuals that want to live off his money. Whatever talent he has in absorbing economical information to do his financial stunts he lacks completely in the political, strategic, historical and cultural realms where he is outdated, limited and outright wrong. He believes he is the saviour of the world but he is only kept in such illusion because of the hundreds of clowns that follow him to applaud his pathetic speeches (cutting the rest of my tirade about him for the sake of brevity).

We breed these immoral or amoral nut-jobs in these places who don't understand that handing over our industrial base to murderous dictatorships who practice slave labour is a very bad idea, especially in the long run when they stop being consumers and turn into exporters offering us artificially cheap crap.

Do you know the story of the Pew Charitable Trust? It's very symbolic. It went from being a private charity fund from an American millionaire who felt the need to retribute and help the less fortune to an organization taken over by its staff and put to serve a network of other organizations "advocating for change".

It is not difficult to think of the consequences of the richest abandoning their principles and spontaneous charity dissapearing to give way to vote-buying.

If America ever ignored the social shadowside is has given birth to it does so today. When the poor are no longer of anybody's concern but something to be left for the faceless state to deal with or by these mega-networks. "N"GO's can't replace the job of the state and the state can't create well-paid jobs for the poor.

What we can criticize at the bottom, the people who abuse social security for example, can also be criticized at the top. And if the example comes from the top, a good start would be getting some morality up there, principles, and the value for the system that allowed them to be where they are.

[Yahoshua]

I agree.....Soros is a crook in the extreme. Exploiting banking laws to drain an entire economy of it's vigor for personal gain is just plain wrong.

[Bum]

Jobs. Who's responsibility is it to make jobs?

Are there only select people who can make jobs for everyone?

If not, what stops anyone from "making a job" for someone else?

If not everyone wants to be responsible and make jobs for others, then of course only select people make jobs. Should they not get to decide on the wages (within legal limits)?

If a person makes a business and makes jobs for people who want jobs but do not want to work very hard, what is the use?

Hey, I have a factory making sofas. You want a job? Here's how much I pay and this is what you must do. Don't like it? Find a better job.

Cannot find a better job? What's the matter, no special skills or knowledge? Well, why would some one want to pay you for a job?

Basic economics. :roll:

[August]

Aha. I recommend we also scratch all threats that have touched Denmark, England, France, australia, N-korea, Irak, Japan and China as well. It is not our business how local residents run their according countries.

That's pretty much the way i see it when you're talking about domestic matters. Do you really want the US to start telling you Germans how to run your country again? One would think you'd have had enough of that during the occupation.

[Gizzmoe]

Oh....err, well, fix it then and stop bugging the rest of us about it. It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany...

That was an unnecessary and rude comment. People can basically discuss whatever they want on Subsim.com, if you don´t like a topic simply ignore it.

[August]

Oh....err, well, fix it then and stop bugging the rest of us about it. It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany...
That was an unnecessary and rude comment. People can basically discuss whatever they want on Subsim.com, if you don´t like a topic simply ignore it.

Obviously you didn't get the point of the message Gizzmoe. Maybe if i had put a smiley at the end of it...

[Gizzmoe]

Obviously you didn't get the point of the message Gizzmoe.

Well, what was the point?

[August]

Obviously you didn't get the point of the message Gizzmoe.
Well, what was the point?

See message number 35 and the post it was replying to for a more complete understanding.

[Gizzmoe]

See message number 35 and the post it was replying to for a more complete understanding.

I still don´t get your thought pattern.

"Do you really want the US to start telling you Germans how to run your country again?" could make me think that you see Subsim as an American forum and that "our" in "It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany" didn´t mean "the forum", but "America". I hope that isn´t the case, it would mean that you totally misunderstand the nature of Subsim.

[August]

See message number 35 and the post it was replying to for a more complete understanding.
I still don´t get your thought pattern.

"Do you really want the US to start telling you Germans how to run your country again?" could make me think that you see Subsim as an American forum and that "our" in "It's really none of our business how Germans run Germany" didn´t mean "the forum", but "America". I hope that isn´t the case, it would mean that you totally misunderstand the nature of Subsim.

Sigh...

Whatever Gizzmoe, see it how you wish to.

[Gizzmoe]

Wow, is it really so hard to write two or three sentences to explain what you meant?

[CB..]

but I do believe that the movie is metaphorically correct in saying that man and his advancements in computer technology will lead to the demise of all life on Earth. It's in our blood to be so foolish.


This is my biggest fear. However, I don't think it will be a machine. I think it will be a biological or checmical weapon, or an unintentional weapon.

We experiment with so many things we don't understand. It won't take much to mutate a virus or bacteria that suddenly becomes deadly and spreads faster than we can eradicate it.

It would be ironic if the only animals that survive the bird flu are the birds.
my moneys on a virus that has lain dormant in the ice caps- effectively in suspended animation- that becomes active again as the ice cap melts and releases it back into the atmosphere....how bowt that for natures self regulating thermometer :hmm:
perhaps and im only joking here this is precisely what bird flu is?? birds being descended from dinosaurs having developed an immunity from the desease that wiped out their fore bears...after all if birds are decended from dinosaurs then not all the dinosaurs can have possibly been wiped out ..load of nonsense of course but who realy knows...