N. Korea Reports 1st Nuclear Arms Test

[_Seth_]

North Korea reports that they have conducted a nuclear arms test. Do you think this will have an impact on the already fragile relationship with the US, or not..?

[Ducimus]

If its true, odds are it will ignite a nuclear arms race.

[Oberon]

It's confirmed, the ROK detected a seismic event measuring 3.5 on the Richter scale emitting from the NE of NK, which is at the site at Gilju, over near Musudan-ri.

So....who's taking money on Japan doing a nuclear arms test shortly then? Or a few missile movements in the sea of Japan.

Here we go!!

[NEON DEON]

When I was 7 years old in October of 1962, JFK, Castro, Cruschev, my parents, and TV managed to scare the crap out of me. I lived in New Orleans at the time. This was within striking distance of nuclear missiles that were based in Cuba.

I threw my parents into the mix because while I was watching afternoon cartoons, they would often come in and change it to the news. They never bothered to conceal their anguish over the situation and their worry was clearly projected on to their faces. So fixated they were on the crisis, they failed to shoo me out of the room when it came on the news. I, curious to understand what frightened them so, watched along with them. After all, these were my parents. They always protected me and kept me safe. But now, for the first time ever, my parents were scared and unsure of themselves?

I would like to say that my family was the only one affected by this. But that was not the case. This was happening to scores of families around the U. S. Every noon as a test, the Air raid sirens would unleash an eerie wail that kept pitch but changed volume: Civil Defense would hold air raid drills in the schools; as the crisis grew larger, basic survival supplies like canned food and water started to disappear from store shelves. This sort of thing was not new to New Orleans as the same hoarding of goods often took place with the approach of a hurricane. But, this was no hurricane the people were stocking up for; this was the fear and threat of nuclear war.

I am a baby boomer. It is the largest group of people in the U.S. Even though George Bush is a republican (I am a democrat) he is still a boomer too. I am sure he knows the horrific consequences of nuclear war as I am sure that the boomers in the Senate and congress also know.

IMHO

The U.S. is worried about North Korea having Nuclear Weapons.

While it may lead off with diplomacy, It may just end in war given NK’s history of no compromising in negotiations.

I also believe this to be the biggest threat of nuclear war since the Cuban Missile crisis.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

In '93 or '94, back when Jimmy Carter negotiated a supposed agreement w/North Korea that they WOULDN'T go for nuclear weapons, I told my father they'd NEVER honor such an agreement. Now, if some kid back then could have seen something that seemed so plain, why couldn't the U.S. government? Wishful thinking?

Personally, I think we she nuke them if they haven't developed a delivery system for their own nuclear weapons, yet.

[Ducimus]

NK wrote the book on brinksmanship. In the end they've always backed down, but only when titering on the edge of war. They like to play chicken in otherwords. But i think they key thing here is, is if NK is at a point where they feel they have nothign left to lose. The reality is, their poor, their starving, and ulitmatly, the DPRK will not survive without major infusion of food, money, whatever. Economic sanctions would ultinatly crumble NK, and i'd say its pretty obvous that their and our politicians know it. Theyve said in the past sanctions would lead to war, and im guessing this is why. If they can't get the stuff they need, they have nothing left to lose.

Of course, another factor is our current administration. Bush does not flex, one iota. While other politicians would provide a back door so Kim could save face and ultimatly overt war, Bush won't do that. He's got this narrow view of the world, so compromise with somethign he see's as a "evil" isn't exactly on his agenda.

Another big factor is how China will react. China is acutally a very real concern.

[STEED]

NK builds up it's military might at the cost to the general public who are starving, with any luck NK will collapse on it's self.

[XabbaRus]

Hmmmm

First of all we have to confirm it's a nuclear explosion. NK is the king country of bull****. They say no radiation leaks, so until something is detected and verified whats to say that for the past 6 months the NKs haven't been stuffing a big underground hole full of TNT?

If it is confirmed it is a nuke with all the threats made maybe, just maybe a single large GBU type bomb should be dropped on one strategically nuclear facility with the agreement of the other big nuke powers. Announce it on TV world wide, make it public.

But then as has been stated NK has nothing to lose by going to war however I think Kim Il Jong is convinvced that no one will launch any attack. Maybe time to disabuse him. INMHO Kim with a nuke is far more dangerous than Ahmadinejad without or even with half the capability.

[thestoon]

In '93 or '94, back when Jimmy Carter negotiated a supposed agreement w/North Korea that they WOULDN'T go for nuclear weapons, I told my father they'd NEVER honor such an agreement. Now, if some kid back then could have seen something that seemed so plain, why couldn't the U.S. government? Wishful thinking?

Personally, I think we she nuke them if they haven't developed a delivery system for their own nuclear weapons, yet.

Actually it was the USA who broke this agreement by not building promised light-water reactor power plants to replace the nuclear reactors that North Korea uses. (some sources claim that the agreement was only entered into by the USA because they were positive that the regime of Kim-Jong Il would have ended by the time these plants were due to come online)

Read about the Agreed Framework and find out who broke the agreement first.

You'd nuke North Korea? wtf.. you should ask George for a job..

As much as it pains me to say it, i'm still more concerned about the US reaction than I am about the actual fact that NK has done a test. We all knew they had some kind of nuclear capability - testing might even give the world a chance to find out how advanced it is.

[Oberon]

Japan has already rattled its sabre (or katana) as it has a right to do, being number 2 or 3 on Kims nuke list, but they've also said that they're going to work closely with the US on improving their ABM capacity, which I think is the right step. Installing ABMs in the ROK, Japan and the western coast of the US will hopefully make Kim think twice about launching his precious nukes, since there'll be no promise that they'll actually reach their target.

Of course, a short range, low trajectory launch across the DMZ into the ROK will still severely screw South Korea. :damn:

[sonar732]

Depending on the source, the force of the underground blast is anywhere from 3.5 to 4.5 on the scale. There is no doubt in my mind that we had sniffers in the air at the time of the blast. In a few days we will have confirmation as to what he actually detenated. With the failed launch of the missile not too long ago, I don't see NK having the capability to launch farther than Japan. On that note, it is weird seeing Chinese and Japanese conterparts meeting together to denounce the North Korean threat.:hmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

Japan has already rattled its sabre (or katana) as it has a right to do, being number 2 or 3 on Kims nuke list, but they've also said that they're going to work closely with the US on improving their ABM capacity, which I think is the right step. Installing ABMs in the ROK, Japan and the western coast of the US will hopefully make Kim think twice about launching his precious nukes, since there'll be no promise that they'll actually reach their target.

This is just it. With a potential Asiatic arms race looming, and with most of the meaningful ground assets tied down in Iraq, the US will now have to engage the North Koreans in talks. This, of course, is why they have been acting at this time. To properly weed out any weapons program, you have to put troops on the ground, and we do not have the ability to do this right now. Yes, we have troops in South Korea, but subduing the North's million-man army, albeit poorly armed, will require more troops than we currently have in the area or available at home.

Of course, a short range, low trajectory launch across the DMZ into the ROK will still severely screw South Korea. :damn:

And have North Korea potentially retaliate, killing 10,000 innocents in the process? Kim Jong Il would do it. No bullets or bayonets this time. We have to talk to him.

[XabbaRus]

TLAM Strike him. We must know where he is at some points of the day.

[Oberon]

Oh, I'm in agreement, a military assault on the DPRK is just crazy thought, without the troops in place to deal with the side-effects (ie, Second Korean war), and Kim knows that, that's why he's pushing his luck as far as he can. What would really screw him is China withdrawing their support, then he'll get even more desperate and head south probably.

Oh, and when I said about a low traj nuke, I meant North Korea launching one at Seoul, not the US launching one north. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

Oh, and when I said about a low traj nuke, I meant North Korea launching one at Seoul, not the US launching one north. ;)

D'oh! I read that backwards. I'll go sit in my corner now. :oops:

[Captain_Stabbing]

So let me get this right............ some of you here are scared for the safety of the world because another country has the bomb.............. so.......... to prevent them from using it, you want to attack them?? NUTS!!!! During the coldwar, the entire idea of MAD kept the world from destroying itself, and from one nation taking over their neighbours.
Its about time someone else gets the bomb (and I am not talking about France, Britain, Israel, or Russia) to keep a certain OTHER bomb owning country in check!

[Rhino1978]

I am in agreement about NK,s capability or lack of it to hit japan at best(for now).But i think it will spark an nuke arms race in the region.I think japan will say we want nukes to deffend ourselves againt NK,which china will kick off at as them two are not the bestest buddies as it is.Plus the fact that china wants to stay the big boy round that neck of the woods,and we all know china has one eye on Tiwan and would have to think twice about invading if a few countries in the region had nukes,i think if thing dont get sorted quickly with NK i can see it getting a bit hairy in asia

[Takeda Shingen]

So let me get this right............ some of you here are scared for the safety of the world because another country has the bomb.............. so.......... to prevent them from using it, you want to attack them?? NUTS!!!! During the coldwar, the entire idea of MAD kept the world from destroying itself, and from one nation taking over their neighbours.
Its about time someone else gets the bomb (and I am not talking about France, Britain, Israel, or Russia) to keep a certain OTHER bomb owning country in check!

It is not a question of international checks and balances. Rather, it is a question of who would the North Koreans sell their weapons and technology to. Obviously, unless provoked, Kim Jong Il would not use his nuclear weapons. However, putting them in the hands of a terrorist organization is a completely different matter. North Korea, unlike Iran or Pakistan, is completely isolated in international politics, and would have nothing to lose in taking such action.

[waste gate]

This ought to bump security to the top of the US peoples minds in time for the election. Thirty days and congress in recess. If the White House (read Karl Rove) plays this correctly the election dynamic has changed in favor of the repulicans.

Perhaps NK, Taliban, Al Queda et al want to fight and know a congress with democrat parity would only want to talk. Or, they are republicans at heart:o .

[Takeda Shingen]

This ought to bump security to the top of the US peoples minds in time for the election. Thirty days and congress in recess. If the White House (read Karl Rove) plays this correctly the election dynamic has changed in favor of the repulicans.

Perhaps NK, Taliban, Al Queda et al want to fight and know a congress with democrat parity would only want to talk. Or, they are republicans at heart:o .

Actually, I suspect that Kim Jung Il, the Taliban and Al Queda may be thrilled with the way that things are currently going. North Korea has made it's run with nukes because it knows that the Iraqi campaign precludes any American military retaliation. The Taliban is resurgent in Afghanistan for the same reason, while our commanders in the region beg for more troops and supplies. The Iraqi quagmire wins thousands after thousands of new recruits for Al Queda's aims. I'm thinking that they are loving the current approach. I wouldn't be so quick to equate the current Republican leadership with security.

[waste gate]

I wasn't trying to equate the current Republican leadership with security. The US public will do that on its own if the event is percived as a serious threat. The Democrats are already on record and percieved as being less than security conscience. Its the politics of the thing which could bite the Democrates. Perception is everything.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, we are getting very far off topic here, but I will say that it is my hope that the American people will begin to see that the Republican party is not the party of security. Of course, neither are the Democrats. Unless we can get some third, fourth and fifth-party leadership in this country, thus breaking up the monolith of politics-as-usual, we will continue with the policies of failure.

What a bleak day November 7th will be. Who does one vote for; the minority party that has no feasible vision, or the majority party who's vision has failed?

[Onkel Neal]

Getting back on topic, I find it amusing so many Asians are "shocked".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6032799.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6032799.stm)

Imagine how shocked they will be when he uses one!

If we learned one thing since 9-11, it is when you enemies say they will try to kill your people, it means, yes, they will.

I say let's give up and let NK have their nukes. All this tough talk by the Bush administration about "not tolerating it" is embarrassing. If we're not going to do anything to stop it but jabber, let's just let it go.

[STEED]

If we hit NK first we are the aggressor and that is not democracy so all we have to do is tell NK if you attack we will insure you will never do it again.

[Oberon]

Yeah, Pyongpang is laughing, they've got their way, and will continue to get their way and there's nothing the US can do about it to stop them. Bush is appealing to the very organisation he warned of becoming 'irrelevant' to do something, but there's nothing the UN can do either. Most of the worlds attention has been on Iraq and Afghanistan, leaving the DPRK with a free reign to do what it wants as long as it pretends to come to the table to talk from time to time.
So, what options now?
Sanctions will just be laughed off, as China continues to slip supplies in over their border, and if China cuts their supplies, then Kim will probably launch at the ROK. A military or nuclear strike...well, that will just result in a second Korean war with China and/or Japan being dragged in, massive casualties, huge humanitarian crisis, lots of immigration, nuclear fallout...trust me...it'd suck.
Japan and the US working together to create a missile shield over Japan and the ROK...that's a good idea, but it won't protect against a low shot or a terrorist supply deal. The only thing that can be done about those options, are already being done, SAMs on the DMZ border and a heavy surveilliance on the DPRK.
Although public pressure to do something to the DPRK will be immense, there really aren't many options at this time. :damn:

[DanCanovas]

i cant see what all the fuss is about. NK have nukes, they said they were making them so whats the surprise about. They won't use them thats for sure unless attacked. They built them because of their own insecurities. They know fully well that if they were to deploy such weapons their country would be wiped from the map, M.A.D theory is still fully applicable even to KJI. As for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.

[The Avon Lady]

iAs for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.
NK has been shipping sophisticated weapons to Iran, Iraq, Yemen. You get the picture.

[micky1up]

i cant see what all the fuss is about. NK have nukes, they said they were making them so whats the surprise about. They won't use them thats for sure unless attacked. They built them because of their own insecurities. They know fully well that if they were to deploy such weapons their country would be wiped from the map, M.A.D theory is still fully applicable even to KJI. As for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.

its the same as iran they have threatened to wipe a neighbour of the map ,if you had a nieghbour thats has threatend you would you be pleased thats hes just bought a tank or a rocket launcher

[The Avon Lady]

i cant see what all the fuss is about. NK have nukes, they said they were making them so whats the surprise about. They won't use them thats for sure unless attacked. They built them because of their own insecurities. They know fully well that if they were to deploy such weapons their country would be wiped from the map, M.A.D theory is still fully applicable even to KJI. As for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.

its the same as iran they have threatened to wipe a neighbour of the map ,if you had a nieghbour thats has threatend you would you be pleased thats hes just bought a tank or a rocket launcher
I somewhat disagree. Kim isn't ready to sacrifice his own life 10 minutes or so after he would himself press the red button.

In contrast, Iranian mullahs and politicians have expressed their willingness to sacrifice millions of shahidim to Allah for the great pleasure of destroying Israel.

MAD is relevant to NK much more than it is to Iran.

[tycho102]

The test scored a .5kt on the OMFGNUKLARWEAPONSAREBADSUPPORTGREENPEACEINSTEAD scale. .5kt will create EMP, and it will spread around a whole damn bunch of radioactive particles, but that's about it.

What this means is that the light-water reactor designs that Clinton/Carter gave to North Korea "did their job". The idea was they'd have too much plutonium-240/241/242, and that would throw in a bunch of other nucleotides down the decay chain, "poisoning" the fissile pu-239. It also means that Kimbo didn't purify out the Pu239 with centrifuges, which he could have done. I hear it's much easier than uranium, but I don't really know anything specific.

About the only thing he's going to get out of this is more press coverage than just shooting at border guards, and probably lots of non-nuclear incentives (read: food).

edit: I also agree with Avon. Mutually Assured Destrution will work on China, North Korea, Brazil, Venezeula, and Mexico, long before it will work on the Iranian clerics.

[Takeda Shingen]

I somewhat disagree. Kim isn't ready to sacrifice his own life 10 minutes or so after he would himself press the red button.

In contrast, Iranian mullahs and politicians have expressed their willingness to sacrifice millions of shahidim to Allah for the great pleasure of destroying Israel.

MAD is relevant to NK much more than it is to Iran.

Yes, but the political consequences of supplying 'third parties' with nuclear weapons or technology are dire. Iran, despite it's manifesto, is a member of the international community. It desires relations and trade with non-Muslim nations. While the tracing of material back a nation would not likely lead to war itself, it would result in fallout (no pun intended) in the diplomatic sphere. This would be very bad for Iran, but North Korea cannot be more diplomatically isolated than it already is. For Kim Jong Il, there is nothing more to lose, which makes him much more dangerous in that capacity.

[waste gate]

Second test? sub-kiloton

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20554779-23109,00.html

[Oberon]

:doh: :o :doh:

Maybe the mountain fell down?

As for NKs proliferation, I refer the right honourable gentleman back to the events of the 11th of December 2002 involving a ship bound for Yemen.

[Dowly]

So, NK made a few tests. So what? They still need to find a way to obtain/build long range missiles and fit the nukes to them. And with little to no help at all from other countries, that is a long prosess, in years.

[SubSerpent]

I agree with Neal on this. The sooner everyone stops making a big fuss about it the better. Like I have stated on here several times, North Korea WILL NOT use them on anyone. Kim Jong-Il may be a terrible leader in his country but that still does not make him a completely suicidal madman.

He is just using this to his own advantage to A) Scare the world from ever going to war with him and his nation. (That's what these weapons were originally designed to do BTW), and B) show his own people that he is an even greater leader than his father by successfully defended N.Korea from any US invasion/takeover without even having to fire one shot or without even one life lost.

Kim Jong-Il might even be considered by some people as a Saint for this by securing peace in the region.

I see this as a good thing in a lot of ways. These weapons are meant to be a deterent to war. Now that N.Korea has them, I doubt the US will be foolish enough to ever go to war with them unless directly attacked by N.Korea. This truly secures peace in that region and keeps everyone sitting at the same table: TALKING like they should be about how to best work with one another!

I do worry about the suicidal and crazy Japanese though - probably the MOST brutal nation to ever come about. These people in my opinion are completely nuts. They seem to LOVE war and confrontation, and I can see them doing something stupid by creating a nuclear weapon to use on N.Korea for this. My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII and years after the war he told me to never trust a Japanese person no matter how friendly they appear to be. He said that they'll turn on you and slit your throat quicker than you can blink if they don't like your ways.

He did say they made nice damn cars though and not to be a fool and waste money on American made gas guzzling monster trucks. I suppose it's their "code of honor" that he was getting at. Those people are very much about their culture and are truly willing to die for it as we all saw with the kamikaze attacks in WWII.


Anyway, this should not be a shock to anyone and people are just going to need to calm down about it and accept it as a way of life now!

[Oberon]

Well, they have the missile, it just doesn't work right...and they can't put a nuke on it...not yet anyway....so...it's highly unlikely they'd fire one at the US, even more unlikely it'd actually get to the US.

Japan however..... :damn:

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, they have the missile, it just doesn't work right...and they can't put a nuke on it...not yet anyway....so...it's highly unlikely they'd fire one at the US, even more unlikely it'd actually get to the US.

Japan however..... :damn:

Or in the trunk of some dissaffected individual's car......

[Oberon]

"My truck is loaded!"

http://www.cncworld.org/games/redalert2/units/demotruck.gif

"Watch out for de bumps!"

[Takeda Shingen]

"My truck is loaded!"

http://www.cncworld.org/games/redalert2/units/demotruck.gif

"Watch out for de bumps!"

Sweet. I'll bring the matches. We'll teach Sonalysts not to include dipping sonar on the MH-60.

Incidentally, that is some up-angle on your Seawolf.

[Oberon]

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1757/aaaraaaraaarghov2.jpg

;) ;) ;) ;) :D

[[dc]Blade]

Personaly i think its a problem for the East to sort outon there own, we might just have to trust the rest of the world to sort their own problems out. why make yourself a target by getting involved, you can only flight on so many fronts at one time and i think that North Korea know this, if it were my decision i would let it take care of its self, we all know the affects of nuclear war and its safe to say that no individual on this earth no matter how mad thay are would ever be stuppid anough to press the button as thay like us and especialy japan know the full force of what it could do. Whats the use of being a Dictator or a leader, if you have no one to follow you because someone scorched the earth. No one person will ever get away with fireing just one nuke in anger thay as well as many other know that their own dimise would follow vary shortly. I say build your bunkers or build your own lives and let them play their game of chess as we are pawns and nothing more. I take interest in this subject and many others and discussion is a good thing but dont let it cloud your own vision.:up:

[Iceman]

i cant see what all the fuss is about. NK have nukes, they said they were making them so whats the surprise about. They won't use them thats for sure unless attacked. They built them because of their own insecurities. They know fully well that if they were to deploy such weapons their country would be wiped from the map, M.A.D theory is still fully applicable even to KJI. As for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.

its the same as iran they have threatened to wipe a neighbour of the map ,if you had a nieghbour thats has threatend you would you be pleased thats hes just bought a tank or a rocket launcher
I somewhat disagree. Kim isn't ready to sacrifice his own life 10 minutes or so after he would himself press the red button.

In contrast, Iranian mullahs and politicians have expressed their willingness to sacrifice millions of shahidim to Allah for the great pleasure of destroying Israel.

MAD is relevant to NK much more than it is to Iran.

Yep as weird as it is, these are 2 totally different cultures...Iran is the greater concern atm even if they are'nt as far advanced along as NK.North Korea is China's puppy dog...if they want them to have that bone then so be it, knowing if there dog gets too big or wild or loose from the kennel well have to put him down...Iran is a wild dog already it seems.Lock and Load.

[Skybird]

NK builds up it's military might at the cost to the general public who are starving, with any luck NK will collapse on it's self.

Which would mean 23 million hungry, starving, desparate refugees "invading" both the Korean Southern peninsula and china - SK's and China's nightmare.

TLAM Strike him. We must know where he is at some points of the day.
You mean like we knew about Saddam?

I agree with Tak in that they launched this coup right now for the moment is one of very weakness of US potential to act militarily. Washingtons strategy and policy of playing it tough and to not accept any demands from NK to prevent NK to become a nuclear power has completely failed - now Washington IS confronted with a nuclear power, which is the worst possible case scenario. Talking to NK now would mean that the US accepts to give the imprression it can be intimidated and blackmailed. I am not so sure that Washington will agree to talks on NK's terms. I predict that Bush will not do anything substantial at all. He will let things run their own way, like he also allows Iraqi things just to run along, without substantial intervention to change them, no matter in what direction. The UN sanctions NK must not fear, for the great leader is not overly concerned with the increased sufferings for his people such sanctions would mean. currnetly, i see NK as immune and invulnerable to any Western action. Hey, I already called NK immune and invulnerable to Western demands three years ago! :lol:

It may be a dirty game, but Kim played it well. Until longterm consequences of strategical balance shifts, caused by the new to be expected arms race and economical changes, come into effect, NK will have the better cards. To avoid the detoriating of these advantages, they will try to make maximum use of these advantages while they still exist. So you better expect NK to play it even tougher in the immediate future for this very reason reason. They know that they need to make hay while the sun is still shining for them.

[Ducimus]

Random comments:

One of china's vested intrest in all of this, is to keep the flood of NK refugee's out of their country. China's pretty packed as it is, they dont need imaciated NK's as well, so this by itself means they'll never be too hot on sanctions or any action which deny's NK food.

Nukes or no nukes, the US was never going to start war with NK anyway. Technically speaking the Korean war never ended, on paper we're still at war with them.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Stalemate_.28July.2C_1951.29 )
The point being if we were going to resume hostilites we would have done it a long time ago. Having been to Korea twice, and twice left feeling bitter towards those people, id just assume we withdrew and let the Koreans sort out their own affairs. and if it turned out to be a Korean version of 1864, ill be tunning into CNN with a big F**king bowl of popcorn.

[waste gate]

a Korean version of 1864,
Ducimus,
What is this in reference to?

[DanCanovas]

we talk about proliferation of Iran, come on....they had the knowledge which they will share with Iran anyway! how does a physical test affect this, it was expected if you ask me. It just needs to be made clear that any use of such weapons by KJI will result in the wiping out of his country.

[Ducimus]

a Korean version of 1864,
Ducimus,
What is this in reference to?

Ok, so i had my dates off, 1861. In reference to the Civil War.

[waste gate]

we talk about proliferation of Iran, come on....they had the knowledge which they will share with Iran anyway! how does a physical test affect this, it was expected if you ask me. It just needs to be made clear that any use of such weapons by KJI will result in the wiping out of his country.

I don't think its about gov'ts that have something to lose. Its about those who don't. Suicide bombers should give an idea as to my meaning. If one of the followers of Allah have the bomb and place it and themselves in downtown London, New York, Tokyo, and/or Paris think of the loss of life. What do we say then?

Many have said that NK has nothing to lose by their action, and that they are isolated and starving. The NK desire for money to perpetuate the regime makes this test even more disturbing. If I were out to cause a catastrophy I'd ask for proof that 'your' bomb works before forking over any cash.

This is a problem.

[micky1up]

i cant see what all the fuss is about. NK have nukes, they said they were making them so whats the surprise about. They won't use them thats for sure unless attacked. They built them because of their own insecurities. They know fully well that if they were to deploy such weapons their country would be wiped from the map, M.A.D theory is still fully applicable even to KJI. As for proliferation, I wasn't aware that North Korea has any relationship with terrorist groups that might aquire these weapons.

its the same as iran they have threatened to wipe a neighbour of the map ,if you had a nieghbour thats has threatend you would you be pleased thats hes just bought a tank or a rocket launcher
I somewhat disagree. Kim isn't ready to sacrifice his own life 10 minutes or so after he would himself press the red button.

In contrast, Iranian mullahs and politicians have expressed their willingness to sacrifice millions of shahidim to Allah for the great pleasure of destroying Israel.

MAD is relevant to NK much more than it is to Iran.

i agree to a point but iran is an enemy we know NK is somewhat unknown and more of a worry see if iran get anywhere near a bomb israel will do its own thing and strike as it did against the french built reactors in iraq

[Bum]

I do worry about the suicidal and crazy Japanese though - probably the MOST brutal nation to ever come about. These people in my opinion are completely nuts. They seem to LOVE war and confrontation, and I can see them doing something stupid by creating a nuclear weapon to use on N.Korea for this. My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII and years after the war he told me to never trust a Japanese person no matter how friendly they appear to be. He said that they'll turn on you and slit your throat quicker than you can blink if they don't like your ways.

He did say they made nice damn cars though and not to be a fool and waste money on American made gas guzzling monster trucks. I suppose it's their "code of honor" that he was getting at. Those people are very much about their culture and are truly willing to die for it as we all saw with the kamikaze attacks in WWII.



Man, that's some pretty crazy stuff to say. You better check your grampa's medicine:roll:

[Yahoshua]

Japan would be better off with their own army......they'd be closer to Taiwan if China invaded them.

[Ducimus]

Intresting article:
North Korea Tested an Atom Bomb; Now What?
Four potential scenarios—all bad.
http://www.slate.com/id/2151216/

[SubSerpent]

That article explained what I had already mentioned earlier about the only real threat to the world is the US and its gung-ho president.

Now we will get to watch Bush and his administration make fools out of all Americans by provoking this guy in N.Korea to do something into doing something else.

It's like Bush is a stupid person (which he actually is) who taunts a Gorilla in his cage with a stick. Bush is going to just keep poking at N.Kore and N.Korea is going to feel obligated to do something even more fanatical, like explode one of these above ground somewhere for all the world to see.

Yeah, I bet the Japanese are crappin their pants right about now. They suffered from A-bomb attacks before. They sure don't want it too happen again. Too bad for them that Bernard is currently serving as the US president right now though. :rotfl:

I guess PS3 will be delayed! :rotfl:

[Ducimus]

Bush i think is pushing for sanctions which is a good bet china will not agree with so it's pretty much anybody's guess. Im of the mind to think that most likely nothing will happen. The UN is all bark and no bite, and i think were pretty safe from bush using our military again becuase most of our operational forces are bogged down in this middle east mess. I don' think he's stupid enough to shoot a missle or drop a bomb on north korea. Thats a can of worms even he isnt stupid enough to open. Hmmm, you know, pausing to think a moment, if bush HAD to start a war, he should have pcked on North Korea to begin with. At least then he'd have a conventional war that you can guage and establish lines and show clear cut objectives on then a morrass of insurgents. Of course, a war with Korea could easily be the flashpoint for something almost tantamount to ww3, only in asia instead of europe.

[MadMike]

Given the fact that Iranian officials were in the DPRK a few weeks ago, I'd imagine Israel is finalizing their frag order. :up:

Don't be surprised if the North Koreans conduct a test in the 100 kt range. A small nuclear test is a precurser for thermonuclear weapons development (compliments of A.Q. Khan).

Examples of man portable/fieldable nuclear weapons-

W54/Davey Crockett and SADM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W54

W48 Artillery Shell-

http://www.brook.edu/FP/projects/nucwcost/155mm.htm

The Soviets fielded a 152mm (5.98" diameter) nuclear artillery shell and man portable atomic demolition munitions.

Yours, Mike

[Ducimus]

Given the fact that Iranian officials were in the DPRK a few weeks ago,


Really? I must have missed this newsbit, anyone have any links? that is a rather disturbing bit of info.

[Skybird]

I do worry about the suicidal and crazy Japanese though - probably the MOST brutal nation to ever come about. These people in my opinion are completely nuts. They seem to LOVE war and confrontation, and I can see them doing something stupid by creating a nuclear weapon to use on N.Korea for this. My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII and years after the war he told me to never trust a Japanese person no matter how friendly they appear to be. He said that they'll turn on you and slit your throat quicker than you can blink if they don't like your ways.

He did say they made nice damn cars though and not to be a fool and waste money on American made gas guzzling monster trucks. I suppose it's their "code of honor" that he was getting at. Those people are very much about their culture and are truly willing to die for it as we all saw with the kamikaze attacks in WWII.



Man, that's some pretty crazy stuff to say. You better check your grampa's medicine:roll:

My mentor, teacher and trainer was Japanese, and his family held a long Samurai tradition. I follow much of that stuff myself, or at least try to do that. So i tell you that your thoughts are queer. you could accuse me as well of being suicidal or wishing to do harm for personal fun and enjoyment when I am expressing my opinion thta some things or enemies must be confornted uncompromised. Determination is one thing, cruelty another. Maybe you should give less for what your grandpa told you about them, for he expereinced them in a time of war, mutual killing, and an outburst of Japanese nationalism. I think he is as objective towards the Japanese culture than my grandfather was when telling me how an agreed cease-fire to evacuate wounded from the battlefield two time shad been broken by Russian snipers to kill german medics and troops in the open - he too said he will never trust a Russian in his life again, and that they are all not trustworthy, and cruel. this he said although usually being aware of that the war was the German'S fault, and he also said he couldn't believe that farmers greeted German troops advancing through their villages with bread and salt, and that he never was harmed or confronted when going into a church and listening to an othodox choire.

Extreme experiences tend to form extreme opinions, maybe!?

[joea]

Right on Skybird, I had a Chinese roomate in my university residence, a young chap who felt a similar way about the Japanese, and after all his country had a much nastier experience than the US from the extreme Japanese nationalism of the time. Yet he had swallowed family (his grandfather was almost shot) history and the Commie propaganda and could not see how modern Japan is different than in the past.

I must say my Great-grandmother felt the same way about Germans because of the war, and "reds" because of the civil war in Greece. Even my Mom had a somewhat negative attitude towards Germans and the symbols of the war, she got very upset when as a kid I bought a ME-109 with a gas motor and string to fly round and round, oh and it had a swastika on the tail. (Good old Canada). She started to get over it when she worked at a German run restaurant part-time as a baker. Dad had no such prejudices except the classic Greek anti-Turk one.

I myself got over more modern biases about life in communist countries when I met and made friends from people from the ex-Soviet bloc. Many Germans, Japanese and Chinese too which was great. :arrgh!: (Oh we did manage to drag this Chinese guy to see the Dalai Lama).

I did visit Turkey last year, and some ideas I had were dropped, but others confirmed. My respect and fear of the Turkish military top on the list. This is something current and NOT to do with a painful history. Going back to SubSerpent's rant, one could criticise Japan's past (like any other country) and the way they deal or don't deal with the black part of the past. Today, comeercial disputes, pollution etc. (which all developed countires are guilty of) , they have been exemplary. There have been official apologies, including from the Emperor, and their culture has a lot to offer IMO. :up:

[SubSerpent]

I do worry about the suicidal and crazy Japanese though - probably the MOST brutal nation to ever come about. These people in my opinion are completely nuts. They seem to LOVE war and confrontation, and I can see them doing something stupid by creating a nuclear weapon to use on N.Korea for this. My grandfather fought the Japanese in WWII and years after the war he told me to never trust a Japanese person no matter how friendly they appear to be. He said that they'll turn on you and slit your throat quicker than you can blink if they don't like your ways.

He did say they made nice damn cars though and not to be a fool and waste money on American made gas guzzling monster trucks. I suppose it's their "code of honor" that he was getting at. Those people are very much about their culture and are truly willing to die for it as we all saw with the kamikaze attacks in WWII.



Man, that's some pretty crazy stuff to say. You better check your grampa's medicine:roll:

My mentor, teacher and trainer was Japanese, and his family held a long Samurai tradition. I follow much of that stuff myself, or at least try to do that. So i tell you that your thoughts are queer. you could accuse me as well of being suicidal or wishing to do harm for personal fun and enjoyment when I am expressing my opinion thta some things or enemies must be confornted uncompromised. Determination is one thing, cruelty another. Maybe you should give less for what your grandpa told you about them, for he expereinced them in a time of war, mutual killing, and an outburst of Japanese nationalism. I think he is as objective towards the Japanese culture than my grandfather was when telling me how an agreed cease-fire to evacuate wounded from the battlefield two time shad been broken by Russian snipers to kill german medics and troops in the open - he too said he will never trust a Russian in his life again, and that they are all not trustworthy, and cruel. this he said although usually being aware of that the war was the German'S fault, and he also said he couldn't believe that farmers greeted German troops advancing through their villages with bread and salt, and that he never was harmed or confronted when going into a church and listening to an othodox choire.

Extreme experiences tend to form extreme opinions, maybe!?


Yeah, tell that to the 10 million or so Chinese people that Japan slaughtered! Tell that to the Americans who fought them in WWII or the guys that were attacked directly at Pearl Harbor!

Japan has one of the more ruthless and brutal pasts of any nation in this world and I highly doubt that the 60+ years since WWII have changed all of them completely. Of course they have had no choice but to be good and play ball with America and the rest of the world since America defeated them in the war and ran their country for them for 10 years or so after the war. Then for another 50 years after that America is still occupying their country to make damn sure they don't build up a nuclear arsenal and too big of an Army because we know that they are crazy enough to use them against China and N.Korea without being attacked first. We learned this from their brutal and ruthless attack at Pearl Harbor!

They are brutal people! It's in their blood!

[Skybird]

Yeah, tell that to the 10 million or so Chinese people that Japan slaughtered! Tell that to the Americans who fought them in WWII or the guys that were attacked directly at Pearl Harbor!

Japan has one of the more ruthless and brutal pasts of any nation in this world and I highly doubt that the 60+ years since WWII have changed all of them completely.

I think we monsterous Germans also have a say in this kind of ranking nations. If you didn't knew - i am a monsterous German indeed, and trained by a monsterous Japanese samurai - if I were you, I would be deeply concerned now! ;)

Of course they have had no choice but to be good and play ball with America and the rest of the world since America defeated them in the war and ran their country for them for 10 years or so after the war. Then for another 50 years after that America is still occupying their country to make damn sure they don't build up a nuclear arsenal and too big of an Army because we know that they are crazy enough to use them against China and N.Korea without being attacked first.

Ah, nice to finally get an answer to why US troops are stationed there. I always wondered why.

We learned this from their brutal and ruthless attack at Pearl Harbor!

They are brutal people! It's in their blood! Yeah, and if you ever see me grabbing for my sword, you better run, man, RUN...!

[Onkel Neal]

sure, North Korea's Great Leader is not crazy enough to use a nuke...

Combative N. Korea threatens to fire nuclear missile (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/10/korea.nuclear.test/index.html)

There's a big difference between wishful thinking and reality. Sorry to just blurt it out but there it is.

[SubSerpent]

Yeah, tell that to the 10 million or so Chinese people that Japan slaughtered! Tell that to the Americans who fought them in WWII or the guys that were attacked directly at Pearl Harbor!

Japan has one of the more ruthless and brutal pasts of any nation in this world and I highly doubt that the 60+ years since WWII have changed all of them completely.

I think we monsterous Germans also have a say in this kind of ranking nations. If you didn't knew - i am a monsterous German indeed, and trained by a monsterous Japanese samurai - if I were you, I would be deeply concerned now! ;)

Of course they have had no choice but to be good and play ball with America and the rest of the world since America defeated them in the war and ran their country for them for 10 years or so after the war. Then for another 50 years after that America is still occupying their country to make damn sure they don't build up a nuclear arsenal and too big of an Army because we know that they are crazy enough to use them against China and N.Korea without being attacked first.

Ah, nice to finally get an answer to why US troops are stationed there. I always wondered why.

We learned this from their brutal and ruthless attack at Pearl Harbor!

They are brutal people! It's in their blood! Yeah, and if you ever see me grabbing for my sword, you better run, man, RUN...!


HAHA! I think a German POW camp in WWII would be like a the Waldorf Estoria compared to a Japanese one!

Swords are gay! I'd prefer a chainsaw! :rock:

[STEED]

Depending on the source, the force of the underground blast is anywhere from 3.5 to 4.5 on the scale. There is no doubt in my mind that we had sniffers in the air at the time of the blast. In a few days we will have confirmation as to what he actually detenated.

Any news anyone was it nuclear or just a load of TNT?

[tycho102]

They are brutal people! It's in their blood!
There is a certain amount of historical truth to this, even by islamic standards. The Asians in general have been overtly brutal to one another, tribe against tribe, clan against clan. Whether it's genetic ambition or cultural influence, it has been a rough side of town for thousands of years.

As education and spiritual strength (read: hope) has grown over the past century -- even in Vietnam and Cambodia and Burma -- this has become less prevalent as a current "stereotype".

[August]

The Asians in general have been overtly brutal to one another, tribe against tribe, clan against clan. Whether it's genetic ambition or cultural influence, it has been a rough side of town for thousands of years.

European, African and American (both immigrant and "native") history is just as bloody and brutal as anything the Asians have done and just as recent.

[STEED]

I heard a snippet on the news today it could have been a bluff anyone got up to date info?

[Dowly]

I´ve only heard that there still hasnt been any signs of radiation in the air... ;)

[Yahoshua]

Same here.

It means one of two things:

1. NK has a small bomb they detonated and were able to contain the radiation.
2. NK just sank a whole lot deeper in credibility which is gonna put them in a world of hurt.

[STEED]

Found this bit of news.

France: Claimed N.Korea Nuke Test Failed

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMKRTO0.html

[Yahoshua]

9 minutes ago:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061013/ts_nm/korea_north_dc;_ylt=AgLjwfd2Z1CVkjAW0Bi8b2EBxg8F;_ ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[tycho102]

It stands to reason out the "test", from a North Korean perspective.

The lowest estimates put the power at .5kt. This would be .5*1000*2000 pounds of tri-nitro-toluene (hypenated for ease of discernment). 100,000 pounds of TNT. 45,500kg.

Now, I'm not familiar with the strengh of various explosives, but I do know that the majority of "military" explosives are some kind of derivative of TNT/AN because of it's relatively high power and low cost to manufacture, along with some HMX, GMX, or ammonium-nitrate (AN). As I understand it, TNT is used as the "booster" charge, with the "primary" being AN or some other. Looking at detonation rates, TNT explodes at about .70 times the rate of AN, so AN is probably quite a bit more powerful.

So, let's say Kimbo just loaded up trucks with high-explosives, carted them all off to a big hole, made an enormous pile, wired detonators to as much as possible, and blew the whole lot up. It would have taken 45,000kg of TNT. Let's say he had a load of ammonium-nitrate, instead. I've read some articles that say 1000 tons of AN will produce the same explosive force (7500tons AN == 4kt of TNT), but I don't know squat about explosives. At any rate, that is a tremendous cost, even if you have the entire fabrication industry (which Kimbo definately has). North Korea is going to have poor roads, so you wouldn't load up a semi-truck to full capacity (or you'd use industrial earth-movers). A half loaded semi will haul 30-45 tons, so we're talking about 25-35 semi trucks full of fertilizer, plus booster charges, plus detonators, plus wiring.

Now, let's look at the other side. Let's say he just pulled the rods out of the light-water reactors, melt them into a few hollow spheres, polished them to the proper tolerances, doped explosives and shaped them for an implosion effect, and blew the piss out of that. He's got some Pu239 in there, but there's a bunch of Pu240-241-242 along with it, not to mention a bunch of other elements. Very, very liberally, let's say he used 800kg of shaped explosives. He loaded up beryllium, aluminium, and graphite in and around the core. Including the containment structure (i.e. steel), let's just say the whole damn thing weighed 10,000kg. He used 800kg of actual high-explosives, but ended up getting 100,000kg out of it.

I'd call that a successful nuclear test. Not a real good one in comparison to others that have built a fission weapon, but it's still a nuke. It'll produce EMP, and man....would it leave the place radioactive for the rest of today and tomorrow -- a real Chernobyl.

[STEED]

Well I just watched the news on ITV and it looks like it was real. Well if this is the case America should say to NK if you use one of your nuclear weapons it will be the last one you will ever use.