State of Denial

[bradclark1]

Anybody getting the book? It's $30.00 plus 30% off everywhere (Borders, Amazon etc).
I amazoned mine yesterday.
And yes, I am keeping an open mind :) .

[Konovalov]

Yes, I do plan on purchasing the book. I have already read both his books "Bush at War" and "Plan of Attack". I'm not sure when it is being released in the UK however?

[Takeda Shingen]

I'll check out my copy at the local library. I have read his others in the same way. I feel that I am able to read and, yet, not contribute financially to the politics of journalism by doing things this way.

My mind is made up regarding the Bush administration and this war. I am simply interested in reading Mr. Woodward's thoughts on the matter.

[bradclark1]

I'll check out my copy at the local library.
I use the library to the max. This book I think would be worth keeping as a look in history or not depending if its proving right, wrong or somewhere in between.,
President Bush thinks that Iraq will be a comma in history. I think it is a world changing event. Time will tell.

[bradclark1]

Got the book yesterday and am on page 76. It's mainly covered Bush seniors efforts to staff juniors cabinet. The Bush's are extremely tight with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia. Its covered Rumsfeld's becoming Sec Def and his battle(?) to gain control of the military. Rumsfeld is a wierd bird that wants to control everything and everyone and no detail is too small.
He sends out a huge amount of snow flakes(quick messages) for meticulous information, so many that it's hard for people to do their jobs. He won't sign them because that gives him deniability (? for whatever reason) but everyone knows where they come from. He's a centralist. He made a minor attempt to even stop the Chief of Staff from being able to talk to the president. He's very self important and has an ego to match. He's a big believer in covering his ass. He will dress down anybody in front of anyone but if pushed back he doesn't quite know how to handle it.
I'm now in the section where it is June and Tenet is getting pretty excited because he can't get the NSC to understand that something big is going to happen. Rumsfeld questions his sources etc.
Get the book. Its a hard one to put down and is well written. Cost $20 right now on sale. If you happen to be in a book store read pages 48 to 52.

[Subnuts]

Rumsfeld is a wierd bird that wants to control everything and everyone and no detail is too small.
He sends out a huge amount of snow flakes(quick messages) for meticulous information, so many that it's hard for people to do their jobs. He won't sign them because that gives him deniability (? for whatever reason) but everyone knows where they come from. He's a centralist. He made a minor attempt to even stop the Chief of Staff from being able to talk to the president. He's very self important and has an ego to match. He's a big believer in covering his ass.
Do I even need to add anything? Naw...

In the meantime, enjoy this classic picture of Robert McNamara! :damn:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2rzz31x.jpg

[Konovalov]

Brad,

There is an excellent book on President Bush's inner circle such as Dr Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and so on titled "Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet" by author James Mann. It is an excellent read if you want to get an idea of what makes these chararters tick and their way of thinking. I read it a couple of years back and I suspect it would compliment the works of Bob Woodward well.

I hope to get my copy of Woodward's book in the next few weeks. Perhaps I will do as you suggest and pop into a bookstore and read P.48-52 as you suggest. :up:

[bradclark1]

The vulcans is mentioned in the book. A humerous title they gave themselves.

[Immacolata]

I thought it was Egypt?

[bradclark1]

What was Egypt?

[Immacolata]

State of the Nile?

[Konovalov]

State of the Nile?

:lol: How true. Denial is not a river in Egypt. :D

[The Avon Lady]

Keeping an open mind? Then try The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Party-Clinton-Radicals-Democratic/dp/1595550445/sr=1-1/qid=1159980297/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5289004-6969537?ie=UTF8&s=books).

[Payoff]

State Of Denial may make an interesting bathroom read. You never know when you may run out of paper.

[August]

State of the Nile?
:lol: How true. Denial is not a river in Egypt. :D

Denial is not JUST a river in Egypt.

[bradclark1]

State of the Nile?

:rotfl: :rotfl::damn: :doh:

[bradclark1]

Keeping an open mind? Then try The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Party-Clinton-Radicals-Democratic/dp/1595550445/sr=1-1/qid=1159980297/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5289004-6969537?ie=UTF8&s=books).

Have you read it AL or is this just a lip run?

[bradclark1]

Denial is not JUST a river in Egypt.

Thats for sure.

[The Avon Lady]

Keeping an open mind? Then try The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Party-Clinton-Radicals-Democratic/dp/1595550445/sr=1-1/qid=1159980297/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5289004-6969537?ie=UTF8&s=books).
Have you read it AL or is this just a lip run?
Lip run. :yep:

[bradclark1]

Keeping an open mind? Then try The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party (http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Party-Clinton-Radicals-Democratic/dp/1595550445/sr=1-1/qid=1159980297/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5289004-6969537?ie=UTF8&s=books).
Have you read it AL or is this just a lip run?
Lip run. :yep:

Oh, OK :D

[Sailor Steve]

Have you read it AL or is this just a lip run?
Who's Al, and why is it important for him to read it?:rotfl:

[Onkel Neal]

Anybody getting the book? It's $30.00 plus 30% off everywhere (Borders, Amazon etc).
I amazoned mine yesterday.
And yes, I am keeping an open mind :) .

The ONE important question I have: Did you order it through Subsim?? :sunny:

http://www.subsim.com/store.html (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)

:hmm:

[SubSerpent]

Anybody getting the book? It's $30.00 plus 30% off everywhere (Borders, Amazon etc).
I amazoned mine yesterday.
And yes, I am keeping an open mind :) .

The ONE important question I have: Did you order it through Subsim?? :sunny:

http://www.subsim.com/store.html (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)

:hmm:

Hey, no soliciting on SubSim unless you are Neal Stevens...Oh, you are Neal Stevens! Nevermind! LOL! :rotfl:


Just keeping your chair warm for ya Neal!:oops:

[bradclark1]

The ONE important question I have: Did you order it through Subsim?? :sunny:

http://www.subsim.com/store.html (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)

:hmm:

:oops: You know, I never remember to do that.

[SubSerpent]

The ONE important question I have: Did you order it through Subsim?? :sunny:

http://www.subsim.com/store.html (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)

:hmm:

:oops: You know, I never remember to do that.

It was nice knowing ya Brad! I imagine Neal is going to give you the boot now. :nope:

Maybe he'll go easy on ya and give you a week to wear the medic cap just to think about your mistake! :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Have you read it AL or is this just a lip run?
Who's Al, and why is it important for him to read it?:rotfl:
It's me and I'm she, not he! :roll:

[bradclark1]

Starting in June, Tenet kept hitting Rice that something big was going to happen and probably in the U.S. but Rice had her attention on the star wars missle defence plan plus the president put out he didn't want to swat at flies in regards to terrorism. Tenet complained to friends that adults shouldn't act like this. Tenet wanted to go over Rice's head but couldn't bring himself to do it. Part of the reason is that Rice is very tight with the Bush's and is always spending personal time with them.
It's kind of funny that the one person who tried to do something about 'something big' ends up being made more or less to resign while the one person you can point a finger at goes scot free and gets elevated to Sec. State.
If you had to use one word to describe the reason for this terror act to happen unchecked it would be "Rice".
I'm condensing a lot into a paragraph but it stays true to the book.

Before the clown gallery starts at least try and have a rebuttal in terms of this thread.

Edit: Bush put the fly statement out before all this was happening. He didn't say that in regards to Tenet's claims. He doesn't know anything about it.

[The Avon Lady]

Starting in June, Tenet kept hitting Rice that something big was going to happen and probably in the U.S. but Rice had her attention on the star wars missle defence plan plus the president put out he didn't want to swat at flies in regards to terrorism. Tenet complained to friends that adults shouldn't act like this. Tenet wanted to go over Rice's head but couldn't bring himself to do it. Part of the reason is that Rice is very tight with the Bush's and is always spending personal time with them.
It's kind of funny that the one person who tried to do something about 'something big' ends up being made more or less to resign while the one person you can point a finger at goes scot free and gets elevated to Sec. State.
If you had to use one word to describe the reason for this terror act to happen unchecked it would be "Rice".
I'm condensing a lot into a paragraph but it stays true to the book.

Before the clown gallery starts at least try and have a rebuttal in terms of this thread.

Edit: Bush put the fly statement out before all this was happening. He didn't say that in regards to Tenet's claims. He doesn't know anything about it.
And we're to swallow this as the god-given objective truth? Do you really believe the CIA and FBI were up to snuff all that time, after all the bunglings have since been reported of how US intel agents behaved more like the Keystone Kops for years, even after 9/11 (dare I say still too often to this very day)?

"For a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
- "The Boxer", Simon & Garfunkel

[Konovalov]

Before the clown gallery starts at least try and have a rebuttal in terms of this thread.

:lol: Do you really think this will work?

Interesting reading. Mann's book "Rise of the Vulcans" also highlghts this close personal relationship that President Bush has. Rice has already been caught out on a couple of denials as to events that did take place with Tenet, C Black and co.

[Immacolata]

Anybody getting the book? It's $30.00 plus 30% off everywhere (Borders, Amazon etc).
I amazoned mine yesterday.
And yes, I am keeping an open mind :) .

The ONE important question I have: Did you order it through Subsim?? :sunny:

http://www.subsim.com/store.html (http://www.subsim.com/store.html)

:hmm:


Does that apply for all amazon.co.uk orders or just the ones that are listed? Ill make sure to buy SH4 off the subsim.com store, at least.

[bradclark1]

And we're to swallow this as the god-given objective truth? Do you really believe the CIA and FBI were up to snuff all that time, after all the bunglings have since been reported of how US intel agents behaved more like the Keystone Kops for years, even after 9/11 (dare I say still too often to this very day)?

"For a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
- "The Boxer", Simon & Garfunkel

No, I'm not saying to take it as gospel. What I'm saying is if you are going to disagree with it at least have something to say in regards to this subject not just "he's a dem" or "thats BS".
FBI isn't mentioned except in one instance of the plane tickets so thats after the fact. (In this I'm assuming because of their legal inability to work together) However Tenet had been on the phone with thirty-something inteligence agencies of different countries to put the squeeze on for information. You have to remember they don't know what's going to happen, only something is going to happen. Woodward portrays Tenet as someone who is frustrated because he can't get Rice to raise the flag to get everyone working on this 'thing'. It isn't a case of trying to covers ones ass for the book. It's a this is what happened book, make of it what you will.
Remember I said I'm condensing a lot into a paragraph but it stays true to the book.

[The Avon Lady]

And we're to swallow this as the god-given objective truth? Do you really believe the CIA and FBI were up to snuff all that time, after all the bunglings have since been reported of how US intel agents behaved more like the Keystone Kops for years, even after 9/11 (dare I say still too often to this very day)?

"For a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"
- "The Boxer", Simon & Garfunkel

No, I'm not saying to take it as gospel. What I'm saying is if you are going to disagree with it at least have something to say in regards to this subject not just "he's a dem" or "thats BS".
But there's nothing to substantiate this. It's one responsible person's pin-the-blame against the other.

And my point was that from all of the major intel goofs reported on since 2001, no one but especially not Tennet and the CIA, come off smelling like roses.
FBI isn't mentioned except in one instance of the plane tickets so thats after the fact. (In this I'm assuming because of their legal inability to work together) However Tenet had been on the phone with thirty-something inteligence agencies of different countries to put the squeeze on for information. You have to remember they don't know what's going to happen, only something is going to happen. Woodward portrays Tenet as someone who is frustrated because he can't get Rice to raise the flag to get everyone working on this 'thing'. It isn't a case of trying to covers ones ass for the book. It's a this is what happened book, make of it what you will.
As told by very interested parties.
Remember I said I'm condensing a lot into a paragraph but it stays true to the book.
I never questioned that.

[bradclark1]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet except that there is argument on the first lady supposedly giving an opinion to fire Rumsfeld and this list that the white house put out and Woodward brought out copies of documents backing the given statements up.
Sadly the arguments over this book has been backseated by the perverted congressman.

[Sailor Steve]

It's me and I'm she, not he! :roll:
Goo goo ga joob!

[The Avon Lady]

It's me and I'm she, not he! :roll:
Goo goo ga joob!
Ah, you are the walrus! :yep:

[The Avon Lady]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet
Only because the mass media doesn't want to tell you (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-rice1002,0,1625771.story?track=rss).

After all, why ruin a great read?! :roll:

[bradclark1]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet
Only because the mass media doesn't want to tell you (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-rice1002,0,1625771.story?track=rss).

After all, why ruin a great read?! :roll:

I thought I was cynical. :-? ;)

[Tchocky]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet
Only because the mass media doesn't want to tell you (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-rice1002,0,1625771.story?track=rss).

After all, why ruin a great read?! :roll:

She has no other option. At all.

I'm not saying that Woodward is correct. He could have pulled that sentence from under the sink, it doesnt matter. The fact remains that the Secretary of State can only deny allegations of ignoring warnings.

[The Avon Lady]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet
Only because the mass media doesn't want to tell you (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-rice1002,0,1625771.story?track=rss).

After all, why ruin a great read?! :roll:

She has no other option. At all.

I'm not saying that Woodward is correct. He could have pulled that sentence from under the sink, it doesnt matter. The fact remains that the Secretary of State can only deny allegations of ignoring warnings.
So, since she has no other options, she must be lying?

Uh-huh. :doh:

Nothing like being the master of conclusions, is there? :88)

[The Avon Lady]

Here's another book, for the open-minded, of course: The Looming Tower - Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=24799).

[bradclark1]

AL, are you going to read State of Denial?
Just curious.

[The Avon Lady]

AL, are you going to read State of Denial?
Just curious.
No. I find nothing convincing of its descriptions or contents.

[Tchocky]

I understand what you are saying and the only thing I can say to that is that nobody has refuted the book yet Only because the mass media doesn't want to tell you (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-rice1002,0,1625771.story?track=rss).

After all, why ruin a great read?! :roll:
She has no other option. At all.

I'm not saying that Woodward is correct. He could have pulled that sentence from under the sink, it doesnt matter. The fact remains that the Secretary of State can only deny allegations of ignoring warnings. So, since she has no other options, she must be lying?

Uh-huh. :doh:

Nothing like being the master of conclusions, is there? :88)

This attack the post, not the poster business has to stop somewhere.

Read my post. Then read your reply.

Repeat this step four or five times.

Me: She has no other option, no matter what the actual truth is behind the allegation.

You: So, since she has no other options, she must be lying?

And what you tacked on to the end was just lovely. Thanks for that.

I was trying to show that a denial may mean less than it appears to.

[Konovalov]

Got the book yesterday and am on page 76. It's mainly covered Bush seniors efforts to staff juniors cabinet. The Bush's are extremely tight with Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia. Its covered Rumsfeld's becoming Sec Def and his battle(?) to gain control of the military. Rumsfeld is a wierd bird that wants to control everything and everyone and no detail is too small.
He sends out a huge amount of snow flakes(quick messages) for meticulous information, so many that it's hard for people to do their jobs. He won't sign them because that gives him deniability (? for whatever reason) but everyone knows where they come from. He's a centralist. He made a minor attempt to even stop the Chief of Staff from being able to talk to the president. He's very self important and has an ego to match. He's a big believer in covering his ass. He will dress down anybody in front of anyone but if pushed back he doesn't quite know how to handle it.
I'm now in the section where it is June and Tenet is getting pretty excited because he can't get the NSC to understand that something big is going to happen. Rumsfeld questions his sources etc.
Get the book. Its a hard one to put down and is well written. Cost $20 right now on sale. If you happen to be in a book store read pages 48 to 52.

Hmmm. I don't have a US copy of the book as I'm in the UK but I did take a look at the British copy from P.49 which is the beginning of Chapter 6 along to page 53 ending with the paragraph that begins "SHELTON HAD BEEN CHAIRMAN since 1997."

If this is the passage in the book that you are referring to then it doesn't reflect well or enhance the reputation of Condaleeza Rice. The fact that after the release of the book "State of Denial" Rice denied that any such meeting with Tenet and Black took place and then for her own staff to embarrassingly have to come out a day later and say that in fact a meeting did take place makes Rice look kind of silly. In the book however it is not a case of Rice appearing silly. Rather she looks distracted, even bordering on negligent. And while Rice seemed distrated with other issues such as missile defence, Rumsfeld questioned and appeared highly sceptical of the intelligence that Tenet and Black were presenting. Direct from the book with my own emphasis in bold:


They both felt they were not getting through to Rice. She was polite, but they felt the brush-off. Bush had said that he didn't want to swat at flies. As they all knew, a coherant plan for covert action against bin Laden was in the pipeline, but it would take sme time. In recent closed-door meetings the entire National Security Council apparatus had been considering action against bin Laden, including the use of a new secret weapon: the Predator unmanned aerial vehicle, or drone, that could fire Hellfire missiles to kill him or his lieutenants. It looked like a possible solution, but there was a raging debate between the CIA and the Pentagon about who would pay for it and who would have authority to shoot. Besides, Rice had seemed focused on other administration priorities, especially the ballistic missile defence system that Bush had campaigned on. She was in a different place.

Tenet left the meeting feeling frustrated. Though Rice had given them a fair hearing, no immediate action meant great risk. Black felt the decision to just keep planning was a sustained policy failure. Rice and the Bush team had been in hibernation too long. "Adaults should not have a system like this", he said later.


How far are you into the book now Brad? Anything else of note that you have picked up on?

[bradclark1]

I layed off of it for a few days and started reading again last night. I'll get into it later but right now it's Rumsfeld running out of control and his juvenile dislike of Rice and other people. Whats bad about it is it affects how business is conducted. Rumsfeld's micromanagement. It's bad when a Sec Def thinks he's a general.