The split-away crumbs of the hijacked swastika thread

[Dowly]

One question that has been circling in my head for ages.

We all know what Hitler did in WWII. We also know what Stalin did. Why there´s always debate on things like here, the Swastika? Why not debate about the old Soviet flag? Over 15mil people died by Stalin´s hand under that flag.

So, my question is, what makes the others so special over Hitler? Stalin was on the winning side? He only killed his own people? The way the murders were made? Please tell me! Dont get me wrong, I´m not defending Hitler, just curious.

[SubSerpent]

One question that has been circling in my head for ages.

We all know what Hitler did in WWII. We also know what Stalin did. Why there´s always debate on things like here, the Swastika? Why not debate about the old Soviet flag? Over 15mil people died by Stalin´s hand under that flag.

So, my question is, what makes the others so special over Hitler? Stalin was on the winning side? He only killed his own people? The way the murders were made? Please tell me! Dont get me wrong, I´m not defending Hitler, just curious.


Good point Dowly! :up:

Just like one could say that America during WWII was perhaps the most evil by slaughtering 214,000 innocent Japanese with the drop of not one (1) but two (2) atom bombs in just 3 DAYS! No other country in history has sunk or stooped to that level. Especially when America was obviously going to win the war against Japan anyways. It just made the war end a lot quicker for America and some argue that dropping the bomb(s) saved lives. I still doubt that an equal or greater amount of lives were spared by dropping the bomb(s) on Japan. Yes, more American lives were spared, but not lives in gerneral and certainly not innocent lives. Troops are not innocents, they get paid to kill and die for their causes. Also, Japan's civilian leadership was in the plans for trying to end the war and surrendering anyways!


Edit: New information has surfaced...

"Last year, the toll came to 379,776 people who have died directly as a result of the bombs." Posted by meloukhia on June 24, 2006 at "this ain't livin" http://www.meloukhia.net/2006/06/never.html

[Dowly]

SubSerpent: Yes, I´ve been thinking about the possible justifications to drop the bombs. The official statement is that it made the war end more quickly and spare the lives of the US soldiers who would´ve to invade the mainland Japan.

Everyone knew that Japan couldnt hold on for long anymore. IMO, it was a matter of maximum of 1 year, that the Japan would´ve surrendered. I see no point on killing almost 400,000 civilians 'just to end it quickly'. And the bombs are still killing today, the children of the ones that where in Hiroshima or Nagasaki, their grandchildren and so on.

I wonder what would the pilots of those planes have done, if they´d known beforehand how devastating the bombs were. Didnt one of them kill himself shortly after the bombings? Or is it just a rumor?

[stuka1166]

Dowly...

Paul Tibbets was the pilot of the "Enola Gay"...He continued service in the armed forces for many years after dropping the bomb in Aug. 1945. I believe he is still around, there was an interview with him in 2005, where the question was posed...Would you do it again ?? His response..."HELL YES I WOULD!" Charles Sweeney was the pilot of "Bockscar" he passed away in 2004. I am pretty sure the pilots knew the bombs were powerful, but I don't think anyone imagined HOW powerful until they were dropped.

If you ever get the chance to visit the airforce museum in Dayton, Ohio..."Bockscar" the 2nd B-29 to drop an A-Bomb...Is on display, as are models of the 2 bombs...Fatman and Little Boy. The 2nd plane was the instrument that ended the war...Hands down !!

I don't think there was any protest demonstration there, then again, it is at the Wright Patterson AFB.

In any event...It was a rumor that the pilots committed suicide.

[Dowly]

Paul Tibbets was the pilot of the "Enola Gay"...He continued service in the armed forces for many years after dropping the bomb in Aug. 1945. I believe he is still around, there was an interview with him in 2005, where the question was posed...Would you do it again ?? His response..."HELL YES I WOULD!"

Well, what can I say. He´s partly responsible of the deaths of almost 400,000 civilians. Enemy or not, civilians are always civilians. And in this case the bombs were dropped to pure civilian targets. I dont get this kind of warfare.

[HunterICX]

Agreed Dowly,

It was pure on civilians, 400,000 civilians dead.
I know that the japanese soldiers where an hard wall to push down but still it was soldiers against soldiers, what america did was Soldiers VS Civilians.
doesnt matter how much trouble an war gives , Nukes arent the solution.
Its really an Cowardly action to drop horror on civilians , and that pilot saying that he would do that again. well I would drop him in the middle of the japanese population with an billboard on him saying ''I was the one that droped the nuclear bomb right here, and I,m damn proud of doing that'' see if how much fun he will have to confront the people with that one.:stare:

[SubSerpent]

I go a step further and call it a terrorist act of America on Japan. The whole point was to instill fear into the enemy to end the war, and to instill fear is to committ terrorism!

Those bright red and blue bars on the flag seem to get more and more faded as the years pass by with America alwyas wiping it's blood stained hands off on it.

[Deputy]

Good grief! Nasty old America waging war on the world's enemies. Shame on us! I think next time any country/continent get's it's butt in a sling, America should just remain neutral and let those countries sort it out themselves. Wave those peace flags at the next invader and see how effective they are.

War is hell and that's as it SHOULD be. And WW2 brought hell to the civilians who used to sit back and watch soldiers kill each other while waving patriotic flags and sending even more young men out to die. I'm happy as can be that civilians are now in the bullseye. Maybe the flag-waving patriots will be less motivated to declare war if they realize THEY could be dead too. Just do all us "terrorist" Americans a favor and DON'T call us or ask us for aid the next time the poop hits the air mover. We're sick of pulling the fat out of the fire for those who turn ungrateful after the war has ended and they are no longer in danger thanks to the USA.

Dep

[Dowly]

War is hell and that's as it SHOULD be.
Dep

Then stop crying about the 9/11! It´s war, terrorists vs America, bear with it. And what comes to the neutrality of US, yes you should keep your nose out of peoples businesses.

Last of my OT on this thread, sorry for 'borrowing' the thread.

[Deputy]

War is hell and that's as it SHOULD be.
Dep

Then stop crying about the 9/11! It´s war, terrorists vs America, bear with it. And what comes to the neutrality of US, yes you should keep your nose out of peoples businesses.

Last of my OT on this thread, sorry for 'borrowing' the thread.

Last of my OT....so Finland doesn't want to get involved? Hope you enjoy reading the Koran. If the US and the rest of the Democratic Free world that has the brass balls to stand up against jihadists doesn't win, that's what you'll be worshipping from. But that's okay, America, England, and other Democratic countries don't mind standing up for YOUR rights. BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Sieg Heil.

Dep

[Dowly]

Ok, I lied, this is my last OT.

Finland was never an ally of Germany. Finland and Germany had a pact, Finland gets weapons and men to fight off the Soviets, while Finland allows german troops to attack Soviets from Finland.

You are forgetting something. The oh-so-big&powerfull US lost a war to a little men in pyjamas back in´60s. While under 200,000 finnish troops held back almost 2mil soviet troops backed by over 2000 tanks, artillery and aircraft. Where was US then? Where was US when British were fighting for their lives? Only after US was attacked, it declared war to axis. What would have happened if Pearl Harbor wouldn´t have been attacked?

But can you really say that US has never done anything wrong? Were the A-bombs justified? If that´s the case, 9/11 was too justified. What Hitler did was justified, so was the Stalins executions. If I declare a personal war towards you and shoot you, that would be justified too.

[HunterICX]

BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Seig Heil.

Dep

:stare:
Did you had to put that ''Seig Heil'' under it?
sorry dude but thats low to say.
dont use that word like that, thats offensive

[_Seth_]

War is hell and that's as it SHOULD be.
Dep
Then stop crying about the 9/11! It´s war, terrorists vs America, bear with it. And what comes to the neutrality of US, yes you should keep your nose out of peoples businesses.

Last of my OT on this thread, sorry for 'borrowing' the thread.
Last of my OT....so Finland doesn't want to get involved? Hope you enjoy reading the Koran. If the US and the rest of the Democratic Free world that has the brass balls to stand up against jihadists doesn't win, that's what you'll be worshipping from. But that's okay, America, England, and other Democratic countries don't mind standing up for YOUR rights. BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Seig Heil.

Dep

..I think its spelled "Sieg Heil", not "Seig Heil".... Anyway, the expression "Sieg Heil" is linked direct to the Nazi's. The Swastica is (as we know....) an ancient religious and cultural symbol.......

[Deputy]

Pfffft...big talk from a country that had a pact/treaty/alliance/whatever with the Third Reich. You can be proud...you are right in there with the Soviet Union who also had a pact/treaty/alliance/agreement with Germany.

And before you re-write history, the US did NOT lose the war in Viet Nam. That war was lost AFTER the US had withdrawn. Prior to that time, the US had NOT lost a battle in Viet Nam and the Communists were in full retreat on every front.
If the anti-war peaceniks and Liberals and Liberal media in the US hadn't stabbed the troops in the back, and the government had taken the restraints off the military to use any and all means necessary to win the war, it would have all been over VERY quickly. A few strategically-placed tactical nukes and pappa Ho would have been at the bargaining table in a flash.

I never said the US never did anything wrong. I do not agree with the war in Iraq or the way it was started (the US Congress abdicated their responsibility to declare war with Iraq,and instead just gave the President the "Okey-Doke" to do whatever he pleases). The US has ALWAYS waited until an act of aggression is made against it before going to war. 9/11 was that act of aggression. But the Iraq war has gotten mixed up with agreements made with the worthless UN, and that's why we are over there now. Becasue Iraq violated agreements that were made with the UN with full knowledge that there would be consequences. Of course, the UN is composed of wishy-washy politicains and leftover Communist countries that have reasons to NOT go to war. Just like the appeasement stuff that went on with Chamberlain prior to WW2. Personally, I wish the US would take that Chavez a-hole's advice and kick the UN OUT of the US. Then get the US OUT of the UN. Let them go to Venezuela. It's a worthless organization anyway.

Were the A-Bombs in Japan justified? Damn straight they were. How many Finnish troops would have died to take Japan? NONE. But it was believed, and justly so based on previous engagements, that the Japanese would fight to the death to protect their country. The nukes most likely saved more Japanese lives than they took. They certainly saved a lot of soldier's lives on BOTH sides.

Dep

[Deputy]

BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Seig Heil.

Dep

:stare:
Did you had to put that ''Seig Heil'' under it?
sorry dude but thats low to say.
dont use that word like that, thats offensive

Maybe so. But when you start throwing insults at a person's country, emotions are bound to be stirred up. If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it.

Dep

[HunterICX]

:nope: Please, create a thread about this in place of hijacking this.
knock it off.

This is about the swastika,
Not america's corrupt governement
nor the finish related as german allies
and not even the japanese.

if you want an Debate about this create an new thread somewhere else

Thanks

[_Seth_]

:nope: Please, create a thread about this in place of hijacking this.
knock it off.

This is about the swastika,
Not america's corrupt governement
nor the finish related as german allies
and not even the japanese.

if you want an Debate about this create an new thread somewhere else

Thanks

Hear hear!! :rock:

[Dowly]

Maybe so. But when you start throwing insults at a person's country, emotions are bound to be stirred up. If you dish it out, you have to be able to take it.

Dep

Please, show me even ONE insult I made towards your country.

PS. Before this post:

Good grief! Nasty old America waging war on the world's enemies. Shame on us! I think next time any country/continent get's it's butt in a sling, America should just remain neutral and let those countries sort it out themselves. Wave those peace flags at the next invader and see how effective they are.

War is hell and that's as it SHOULD be. And WW2 brought hell to the civilians who used to sit back and watch soldiers kill each other while waving patriotic flags and sending even more young men out to die. I'm happy as can be that civilians are now in the bullseye. Maybe the flag-waving patriots will be less motivated to declare war if they realize THEY could be dead too. Just do all us "terrorist" Americans a favor and DON'T call us or ask us for aid the next time the poop hits the air mover. We're sick of pulling the fat out of the fire for those who turn ungrateful after the war has ended and they are no longer in danger thanks to the USA.

Dep

[Deputy]

I will abide by the forum's request and discontinue my off topic posts. :up:

Dep

[Kpt. Lehmann]

[BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Sieg Heil.

Dep

Deputy, what the hell are you thinking!?!:nope:

Go somewhere else if you want to post crap like that!

[Deputy]

[BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Sieg Heil.

Dep

Deputy, what the hell are you thinking!?!:nope:

Go somewhere else if you want to post crap like that!

A bit more specific if you don't mind. Are you referring to the fact Finland had an alliance with Nazi Germany or the little needle about Seig Heil? Sorry for the first misspelling, BTW. Look Tex...like I said before...if you dish it out you have to be able to take it.

Here's an interesting factoid:

SS-Volunteer Battalion Nordost
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Finnish Volunteer Battalion of the SS)

The Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS was a Finnish volunteer combat battalion of the German Waffen SS. It saw action on the Eastern Front during World War II.
Formed in 1941 as SS Freiwilligen-Battalion Nordost the battalion was made up of 1200 Finnish volunteers who had signed to fight against Soviet Union for two years. While many Finns were already serving with the SS-Division (mot) Wiking, the battalion differed in that it was staffed with Finnish officers and NCOs (Wiking being commanded by Germans).
After initial training in Vienna the battalion was transferred to Stralsund in June 1941 and at the beginning of August to the infantry barracks at Gross-Born, Pomerania, for more training and where it was attached to SS Division (mot) Wiking.
The battalion was sent to the Eastern front in January 1942 and took part on battles along the Mius River and later in the Caucasus campaign of 1942, forming the vanguard of the furthest south made by the Germans during the campaign, reaching the Grozny oil fields before finally being pushed back by the Soviets.
In May 1943 the battalion was transferred away from the front, as the two years was at an end, and was disbanded in July 1943. Those members of the battalion who wanted to stay in Waffen-SS joined SS Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadier Division Nordland or SS-Standarte Kurt Eggers.
The battalion was praised by many Waffen-SS commanders and even Himmler, who said "Where a Finnish SS-man stood, enemy was always defeated."

I would bet those guys didn't whine about fighting under the swastika flag.

Dep

[Dowly]

And what does that last post of yours proof? That there are VOLUNTEERS amongst Finns? :p

And I ask again, how did I insult your country?

[Pants]

Could say the same regarding "Some" britsh that joined the Waffen SS "Free Corps"
But i would never use a derogatory remark like "seig heil"
Instead of polluting the forums with racist crap please do it via PM as the vast majority dont want to read stuff like this, and before you say "WELL dont read the thread then" the thread was hijacked.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@Deputy,
Himmler spewed lots of CRAP (as did all governments involved) for the the sake of morale and propaganda.

You know damn well to what I refer.

I refer to your disrespect of the spirit of this forum and your disrespect of Dowly...

... and anyone who calls me "Tex" or implies that Dowly is a Nazi or Nazi Sympathizer should be happy that he is not meeting with me in person today.

You should be banned for the kind of craptacular mess you are making here here.

Leave your politics and baiting at home.

I'm done with you... Say whatever you like... Its all crap.

WWII is over buddy. Neither Dowly, nor anyone else here should be made to bear that cross.

Feel free to play in your pile of poo.

[SubSerpent]

GGGrrrrr:arrgh!: @ Deputy


Why U drop D Sieg Heil-bomb on Dowly?!?! He just wanted to know why Stalin doesn't get the same attention Hitler gets.

It was me that started the America vs. Japan because I too believe that no one had clean hands in WWII and that the world so easily pins the tag of "bad guy" on Hitler way too often when there were other bad people in this world who killed just as many or more people than Hitler did.

Yes, Dowly was OT with his post and so was I, but he DID NOT offened America. I am an American and I wasn't offened so therefore you MUST be the one starting the crap. No one had a problem with any of it till you came blabbering in.

Honestly, I think it was YOU that insulted Finland (and Dowly cause he Finnish), by calling his country Nazi supporters and then using the Sieg Heil bomb on Dowly himself as if he was a Nazi. You did this twice in two seperate posts.

Shame on you :stare:

[Crawlerz]

:hmm: [quote=shegeek72]Since I created a Grey Wolves sig using it, and found out it's prohibited in Germany, I wanted to get feedback from you guys. I realize SH3 is just a game and the swastika has been used as a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism and occurs in other Asian, European, African and Native American cultures, there may be some who find it offensive (even though it used in the game). If so, I'll remove it from my sig.:know:

well, herein u said a mouthful. 1st of all, yes swastikas are sacred, even protective symbols, in several ancient cultures. they R prohibited in Germany thou becouse (u can guess why, cant u?) - as if that would stop a hypothetical 4th REICH!
i beleive in historical accuracy. wether on my model airplanes or on Uboats ingame, i think what needs to be there, needs to be there. (and i have lost many relatives :nope: in the war, since most - i think all - russian families were touched by the great war.) and althou i cant bring myself to always fly german bf109s in forgotten battles (gr8 game!!!:up: ) i still think a game with ONLY german submarines, should be DEFINITELY historically acurate.
thts my $0.02
edit -- heated opinions, huh? 9/11 should not be discussed her, but the animals that did it should burn until crispy original recipy. i lost relatives in the great war. i also had relatives imprisoned under Stalin. they R both SAME $H|T!!! both are nazis and mass murderers!
KPT. said it best - play in the pile of poo u've created!
sieg heil? r u kidding me? wtf did that come from?

edit - edit -- Dep should be kiked from the forum and america should immideately withdraw from iraq/afganistan! (and that's sayin' not coz i like those animals - i h8 them - i'd fight em myself - i just cant stand to see a 2nd vietnam on our hands for NO APPARENT reason!!!)
anywhere there is a discussion about swastikas u'll find such battle/arguments. it just stands for something evil. but really they (Nazis) hijaked the protective symbol turning it into one of hate.

[VON_CAPO]

:roll::roll::roll: This thread is degenerating like a Ubi one. :nope::nope::nope:

It would be nice if each participant tempers itself. :yep::yep::yep:

[Dowly]

Like SubSerpent pointed out on page 6, the toll is 379,776 atm. But why civilian targets? Why not bomb military bases? It would not kill as much as hitting civilian target, but the seeing what the bombs can do would surely make any country surrender. ;)

[SkvyWvr]

Like SubSerpent pointed out on page 6, the toll is 379,776 atm. But why civilian targets? Why not bomb military bases? It would not kill as much as hitting civilian target, but the seeing what the bombs can do would surely make any country surrender. ;)

I guess the figure depends on where you find it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

As for the targets, have you ever been to Japan? I have, and I lived there for 3 years. Nowhere on those islands can you put a military installation that isn't adjacent to or surrounded by a civilian center.

[SubSerpent]

Like SubSerpent pointed out on page 6, the toll is 379,776 atm. But why civilian targets? Why not bomb military bases? It would not kill as much as hitting civilian target, but the seeing what the bombs can do would surely make any country surrender. ;)

I guess the figure depends on where you find it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

As for the targets, have you ever been to Japan? I have, and I lived there for 3 years. Nowhere on those islands can you put a military installation that isn't adjacent to or surrounded by a civilian center.


The website I got my information at (on page 6 of this thread) clearly states

214,000 people died within four months of the bombings. Thousands of Hibakusha ("explosion affected people") died in the years to follow--every August, Japan publishes new figures. Last year, the toll came to 379,776 people who have died directly as a result of the bombs. Most of these people were civilians, living in a city left more or less alone throughout the war. (Some historians have suggested that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were deliberately left intact to measure the full power of the bombs, something which assumes that the use of nuclear weapons was a fait accompli.)

Obviously, the death toll is still being counted! The bombs will contiue to affect people for many years to come!

Also, the bombs were admitted by US officials to be used on the innocent Japanese to deter (to instill fear?) a continuation of fighting with the US!

Those two bombs have nearly wiped out as many Japanese innocents than all the men the US lost during the entire war (including the Europe theater and the Pacific theater) US estimates about 450,000 US soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, died during the entire war.

[joea]

Except the war was not just between Japan and the US SubSerpent, why does everyone forget the rest of Asia? China lost about 10 million for example. I am not happy about the a-bombs and think they should have been used as Dowly suggested, and don't deny what these people suffered, but I read somewhere only 5% of deaths in all of WWII were Axis civilians. I doubt that would change much even with the radiation sickness etc.

Oh, keep the Swastika in WWII games please, as long as you leave the choice for those who don't want it and respect the laws of certain countries.

[Pants]

Like SubSerpent pointed out on page 6, the toll is 379,776 atm. But why civilian targets? Why not bomb military bases? It would not kill as much as hitting civilian target, but the seeing what the bombs can do would surely make any country surrender. ;)
Dowly mate you could say the same about the City Bombing of Coventry and London by the LuftWaffe, Berlin and Dresden RAF bomber command and the mass firebombing of Nagoya,Osaka,Kobe and Tokyo by the USAAF. In Tokyo 100,000 Japanese died in one raid.This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the The Atomic bombs. Around 16 square miles (41 km²) of the city were destroyed in the FireStorm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. In the following two weeks there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km²) in total at a cost of 22 aircraft. There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26.That fact of the matter is values have changed. We are more aware of collateral damage these days and with the advent of "smart" weapons mass bombing is no longer used in poputalted areas. We will never see another World War fought like WWI, WWII..put simply WWIV will be fought with rocks and sticks.( If anyone is left )

Back on topic..I like the swastica..not what it stood for when the Nazi party adopted it.It's a part of history so i would like to see it in game and how ever much we try we cannot erase histroy...what ever country you come from i'm sure there is a piece of dark histroy we would love to erase. We can't change History but WE CAN LEARN FROM IT!!

[Dowly]

Yes, I could say the same of any attack made towards pure civilian targets.

[Dowly]

To Dowly, you have my respect (I hope you're suitably gratified, lol). Your posts on this topic have shown considerable restraint despite provocation and your arguments well-reasoned. Congratulations.
Trust me, I was tempted to insult Deputy with every insulting word I know, both english ones and finnish ones. But then again, that would´ve only grow the flames bigger and I would most likely have been banned for that. :yep:

Anyways, I do understand Deputy, he obviously loves his country, as his reactions showed. I wouldnt want someone to point me the 'black pages' of finnish history, like the civil war we had in the beginning of the 1910 with it´s mass executions and all the crap that happened.

And to reply SkvyWvr´s post:

At least we didn't make a pact with the devil so survive.
It´s easy to say that now, in 2006, when we know what Hitler did during the WWII. Remember, outside of Germany very very very few knew about the concentration camps until allies liberated them. So, if germany was the devil when Finland made the pact, it would be because germany was the one who started the war with it´s attacks on Poland, France etc. But would that make Stalin devil too? He attacked Finland just to get what he wanted (Tho, Finns still manned most of the land we lost in truce)? Stalin acted like Hitler did in the border of Poland, Stalin claimed that finns had fired artillery rounds across the border to Soviet Union and said that provocated Soviets to attack Finland. Finns didnt have any artillery in the area at that time and Soviet Union later admitted that the rounds were fired by it´s own artillery to make the attack to look like it was defensive action by Soviets. Also, remember, german troops were mainly stationed to Lapland, from where FINNISH troops drove them away.

Of course we took every help we could get, including help from France, UK, Sweden, Italy (which gave us 50 fighters, but germany didnt allow them to reach Finland) and Poland (Offered troops, but Sweden didnt allow them to move across Sweden to Finland).

You didnt see US in the list. Reason is: There was no declaration of war between Soviets and Finns, so in theory the countries werent in state of war. Without the american press, we wouldnt had any help from US. The press raised 6mil dollars to send for finns.

So, as you see, finns didnt get too much of a help from anywhere else than germany. Tho, there was few americans working as ambulance drivers in the frontlines. :up:


I agree, Finland fought a hell of a good fight, but remember they only had to defend a tiny corridor. I am not putting down their heroic stand, mearly pointing out an important fact.

Yes, most of the battles took place in the Karelian Isthmus, BUT not all the troops were there. Basically, the whole east border of Finland was attacked in the start of the hostilities.

[Pants]

" ... wars are always a gigantic waste of lives and effort"
A statement from someone who has obviously never fought in one...else you'd know. I have relatives who fought in WWI,WWII ( English, American and German ), Policing in Egypt,The Falkland conflict, gulf war 1990 and i have a mate who is in Iraq as i type this..If fighting/ Defending for your own country i have no problem with, But "World Wars i agree with Boris..The US and UK / Commonwealth forces are always spear heading coalition operations. Why? because we are the only ones dumb enough to do it.
Some of mans greatest achievements, both personal and cultural, have occured while trying to destroy an oppressor. And many of them were actually FROM an oppressor.
Yes because in a state of war you will ALWAYS get the latest invovations to "be" better equiped/ stronger than the "Other" side.
When in peace newer inovations will be drip fed due to not being urgent.

[SkvyWvr]

And to reply SkvyWvr´s post:

At least we didn't make a pact with the devil so survive.
It´s easy to say that now, in 2006, when we know what Hitler did during the WWII. Remember, outside of Germany very very very few knew about the concentration camps until allies liberated them. So, if germany was the devil when Finland made the pact, it would be because germany was the one who started the war with it´s attacks on Poland, France etc. But would that make Stalin devil too? He attacked Finland just to get what he wanted (Tho, Finns still manned most of the land we lost in truce)? Stalin acted like Hitler did in the border of Poland, Stalin claimed that finns had fired artillery rounds across the border to Soviet Union and said that provocated Soviets to attack Finland. Finns didnt have any artillery in the area at that time and Soviet Union later admitted that the rounds were fired by it´s own artillery to make the attack to look like it was defensive action by Soviets. Also, remember, german troops were mainly stationed to Lapland, from where FINNISH troops drove them away.

Of course we took every help we could get, including help from France, UK, Sweden, Italy (which gave us 50 fighters, but germany didnt allow them to reach Finland) and Poland (Offered troops, but Sweden didnt allow them to move across Sweden to Finland).

You didnt see US in the list. Reason is: There was no declaration of war between Soviets and Finns, so in theory the countries werent in state of war. Without the american press, we wouldnt had any help from US. The press raised 6mil dollars to send for finns.

So, as you see, finns didnt get too much of a help from anywhere else than germany. Tho, there was few americans working as ambulance drivers in the frontlines. :up:


I agree, Finland fought a hell of a good fight, but remember they only had to defend a tiny corridor. I am not putting down their heroic stand, mearly pointing out an important fact.

Yes, most of the battles took place in the Karelian Isthmus, BUT not all the troops were there. Basically, the whole east border of Finland was attacked in the start of the hostilities.

:oops: I wish to apologize for the devil comment. You are right, your nation did what it had to do to survive a madman's attack. Again, please accept my apology.

[Deputy]

Well this has been a VERY informative/amusing/bizarre discussion so far.
#1 I have found out that the US and England are fools and dumb for being willing to fight for freedom in other countries at the cost of the lives of their own troops.

#2 I have found out that no matter how much your country does for the world, some people will ALWAYS look at the negative side of things. I guess Liberalism is alive and well in the rest of thr world. That's the attitude of Liberals in the US. I thank God I'm a Conservative. And I thank God my country had the courage to fight for countries in Europe that now stab the US in the back. I wonder how many times you have to liberate France and certain other European countries before they learn to say "thank you"? I guess it will never happen.

#3 I learned that there is MUCH envy of the power and might of the US. Oh well...SOMEBODY has to be the policeman on the block and protect the little guys.
I sure don't see any Euro-countries (with the exception of England) doing that.
If it wasn't us, it would have been the Soviet Union. SH3 wouldn't even exist if that happenned. And most likely much of the internet wouldn't exist either. That's okay...you guys don't have to say thank you...i'll just say "you're welcome" on behalf of our "oppressive US regime" and leave it at that.

#4 Even though the US is always one of the first countries to "come to the rescue" when there are emergencies and natural disasters, with the most money and assistance, even to enemies of the US, people still don't like us. I guess there's just no pleasing some folks.

Some of you guys can't let go of the "military" train of thought when it comes to wars. The advancements I was referring to that occured during wartime involved the advancements in medical treatment, space exploration, and sources of energy.
All of which are used during peacetime to make our lifestyles better.

The simple fact is war has been with mankind since the first time the caveman clubbed his neighbor over the head for stealing his woman/land/water hole/etc. It will BE with us for a very long time to come. Get used to it and prepare for it. That way you won't be caught with your pants down when the jihadists or whatever other loonies start setting off dirty bombs or other nastiness in your area.

I believe in peace...PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER.

Dep

[Boris]

Well this has been a VERY informative/amusing/bizarre discussion so far.
#1 I have found out that the US and England are fools and dumb for being willing to fight for freedom in other countries at the cost of the lives of their own troops.

#2 I have found out that no matter how much your country does for the world, some people will ALWAYS look at the negative side of things. I guess Liberalism is alive and well in the rest of thr world. That's the attitude of Liberals in the US. I thank God I'm a Conservative. And I thank God my country had the courage to fight for countries in Europe that now stab the US in the back. I wonder how many times you have to liberate France and certain other European countries before they learn to say "thank you"? I guess it will never happen.

#3 I learned that there is MUCH envy of the power and might of the US. Oh well...SOMEBODY has to be the policeman on the block and protect the little guys.
I sure don't see any Euro-countries (with the exception of England) doing that.
If it wasn't us, it would have been the Soviet Union. SH3 wouldn't even exist if that happenned. And most likely much of the internet wouldn't exist either. That's okay...you guys don't have to say thank you...i'll just say "you're welcome" on behalf of our "oppressive US regime" and leave it at that.

#4 Even though the US is always one of the first countries to "come to the rescue" when there are emergencies and natural disasters, with the most money and assistance, even to enemies of the US, people still don't like us. I guess there's just no pleasing some folks.

Some of you guys can't let go of the "military" train of thought when it comes to wars. The advancements I was referring to that occured during wartime involved the advancements in medical treatment, space exploration, and sources of energy.
All of which are used during peacetime to make our lifestyles better.

The simple fact is war has been with mankind since the first time the caveman clubbed his neighbor over the head for stealing his woman/land/water hole/etc. It will BE with us for a very long time to come. Get used to it and prepare for it. That way you won't be caught with your pants down when the jihadists or whatever other loonies start setting off dirty bombs or other nastiness in your area.

I believe in peace...PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER.

Dep
Whoa ok, I think I'll leave it at that. I won't be able to change your mind anyway. I don't hate the US, I'm just not afraid to criticise it nor anything else. Nothing is perfect, not even the US. Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch.
I could say a million things to refute all you said, but why bother... we'd be here for days arguing.
You obviously love your country, and I shouldn't argue against that. Yes, your views are exteme right, but I guess thats what you get if you're from New Mexico. A lot of what you said is obviously a product of the society you grew up in, and I can't hold that against you. I'm not having a go at you at all, you have no idea how radical your views sound to me, having come from a different backround.

You ask yourself why some people don't like the US... it's because of things such as what you wrote above. It shows a lack of global awareness and implies a love of violence. Most people in other countries don't like that, trust me... and your irrational dislike of liberalism? Just more people to hate, just like commies or arabs right?
But like I said, it's not your fault.

[Deputy]

"Whoa ok, I think I'll leave it at that. I won't be able to change your mind anyway. I don't hate the US, I'm just not afraid to criticise it nor anything else."

You shouldn't be afraid to criticise it. Nobody said it was perfect, including me. I have a good many gripes about things in the US and don't hesitate to complain to my political representatives. That's another part of what makes this country so great. :)


"Nothing is perfect, not even the US."

Never said it was perfect. But I'll take living here over anywhere else. Gotta be something good here, since so many people from other countries are willing to violate our immigration laws to come here and live. Or wait on long lists to do it legally.

"Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch."

Never said that at all. Please don't insert words into my mouth. I said it was the protector of the civilized world, which it is.

"I could say a million things to refute all you said, but why bother... we'd be here for days arguing."

Feel free...unless the mods say don't. I keep hearing this "I could give you a million reasons" stuff, but I don't see ONE reason posted.

"You obviously love your country, and I shouldn't argue against that."

Nothing to argue about, I do love my country. Everyone should love their country :D

"Yes, your views are exteme right, but I guess thats what you get if you're from New Mexico."

Whoa pardner!!!!....you're WAY off on that one. New Mexico is a VERY left wing/Liberal state. I just moved here from Illinois (also a Liberal state) in January and am finding that out every day. Best thing New Mexico has is good pro-gun laws. Concealed carry is permitted in NM...forbidden in Illinois.

"A lot of what you said is obviously a product of the society you grew up in, and I can't hold that against you."

Actually, there were Liberals and Conservatives in the society I grew up in. I simply agree with the Conservatives who believe LESS government is better and I chose to support them.

"I'm not having a go at you at all, you have no idea how radical your views sound to me, having come from a different backround."

Yes, I suspect most of Europe has a strong Socialist leaning. I can see that from the posts of some folks on here. I apologize for calling Euros Liberals BTW...that's the term we use in the US for that type of thinking. I also suspect you guys believe Bill Clinton was the best President the US ever had :lol:

"You ask yourself why some people don't like the US... it's because of things such as what you wrote above."

You mean the truth? Yeah...some folks just can't handle it.

"It shows a lack of global awareness and implies a love of violence."

Ahhh yes...you are referring to the "New World Order" and the "globalizing" of the world. Yep...I'm dead against it. We have our US Constitution and I sure don't want the rest of the world dictating what my rights should be. I'm quite happy with the way our founding fathers set things up. If someone attacks us, we fight back. The only other country I know of that has that attitude is Israel. They have my highest respect and admiration.

"Most people in other countries don't like that, trust me... and your irrational dislike of liberalism?"

Irrational??? LOL...now THAT would be a large topic to discuss. I prefer to take care of myself. I don't need the government meddling in my life and all those social welfare programs that waste taxpayer money.

"Just more people to hate, just like commies or arabs right?"

Do I hate Commies? Not any more. We can thank Ronald Regan for eliminating the threat from that vermin. Do I hate Arabs? Nope. Do I believe the propaganda that Islam is a peaceful religion? No way. Just read translations of the Koran to prove to yourself that it isn't peaceful, no matter how much they may deny it on TV.

Dep

[Boris]

"Whoa ok, I think I'll leave it at that. I won't be able to change your mind anyway. I don't hate the US, I'm just not afraid to criticise it nor anything else."

You shouldn't be afraid to criticise it. Nobody said it was perfect, including me. I have a good many gripes about things in the US and don't hesitate to complain to my political representatives. That's another part of what makes this country so great. :)


"Nothing is perfect, not even the US."

Never said it was perfect. But I'll take living here over anywhere else. Gotta be something good here, since so many people from other countries are willing to violate our immigration laws to come here and live. Or wait on long lists to do it legally.

"Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch."

Never said that at all. Please don't insert words into my mouth. I said it was the protector of the civilized world, which it is.

I could say a million things to refute all you said, but why bother... we'd be here for days arguing.

Feel free...unless the mods say don't. I keep hearing this "I could give you a million reasons" stuff, but I don't see ONE reason posted.

"You obviously love your country, and I shouldn't argue against that."

Nothing to argue about, I do love my country. Everyone should love their country :D

"Yes, your views are exteme right, but I guess thats what you get if you're from New Mexico."

Whoa pardner!!!!....you're WAY off on that one. New Mexico is a VERY left wing/Liberal state. I just moved here from Illinois (also a Liberal state) in January and am finding that out every day. Best thing New Mexico has is good pro-gun laws. Concealed carry is permitted in NM...forbidden in Illinois.

"A lot of what you said is obviously a product of the society you grew up in, and I can't hold that against you."

Actually, there were Liberals and Conservatives in the society I grew up in. I simply agree with the Conservatives who believe LESS government is better and I chose to support them.

"I'm not having a go at you at all, you have no idea how radical your views sound to me, having come from a different backround."

Yes, I suspect most of Europe has a strong Socialist leaning. I can see that from the posts of some folks on here. I apologize for calling Euros Liberals BTW...that's the term we use in the US for that type of thinking. I also suspect you guys believe Bill Clinton was the best President the US ever had :lol:

"You ask yourself why some people don't like the US... it's because of things such as what you wrote above."

You mean the truth? Yeah...some folks just can't handle it.

"It shows a lack of global awareness and implies a love of violence."

Ahhh yes...you are referring to the "New World Order" and the "globalizing" of the world. Yep...I'm dead against it. We have our US Constitution and I sure don't want the rest of the world dictating what my rights should be. I'm quite happy with the way our founding fathers set things up. If someone attacks us, we fight back. The only other country I know of that has that attitude is Israel. They have my highest respect and admiration.

"Most people in other countries don't like that, trust me... and your irrational dislike of liberalism?"

Irrational??? LOL...now THAT would be a large topic to discuss. I prefer to take care of myself. I don't need the government meddling in my life and all those social welfare programs that waste taxpayer money.

"Just more people to hate, just like commies or arabs right?"

Do I hate Commies? Not any more. We can thank Ronald Regan for eliminating the threat from that vermin. Do I hate Arabs? Nope. Do I believe the propaganda that Islam is a peaceful religion? No way. Just read translations of the Koran to prove to yourself that it isn't peaceful, no matter how much they may deny it on TV.

Dep

Yeah, ok... sorry, it's just that you sounded like some sort of gun toting, tabacco chewing, redneck yokel in your last post

[Boris]

Ok, sorry I had to dig this up to just insert some comments...

Well this has been a VERY informative/amusing/bizarre discussion so far.
#1 I have found out that the US and England are fools and dumb for being willing to fight for freedom in other countries at the cost of the lives of their own troops.

Who said they were fools? The troops are fighting for freedom... the governments have political objectives. Fighting for freedom is a blanket term to warm your heart and strengthen your zeal.

#2 I have found out that no matter how much your country does for the world, some people will ALWAYS look at the negative side of things. I guess Liberalism is alive and well in the rest of thr world. That's the attitude of Liberals in the US. I thank God I'm a Conservative. And I thank God my country had the courage to fight for countries in Europe that now stab the US in the back. I wonder how many times you have to liberate France and certain other European countries before they learn to say "thank you"? I guess it will never happen.

I can assure you Europe was grateful... http://www.ambafrance-us.org/news/statmnts/2000/ww2/index.asp

#3 I learned that there is MUCH envy of the power and might of the US. Oh well...SOMEBODY has to be the policeman on the block and protect the little guys.

Not everything the US does is to help ungrateful others, most deployments are based on whats best in the US national interest, not anyone else's. Most of the time the US will only police if it's in the US interst, there are plenty of examples where bad things happened, but no action was taken (most noteably in Africa). The US isn't alone in this, all countries look after their own interests first. The US, like every other country, is not a lone good guy just trying to look out for the world.

I sure don't see any Euro-countries (with the exception of England) doing that.

Plenty of other countries send troops on deployments around the world to troublespots. Germany is also in Afghanistan, Australia and Japan come to mind as helping out in Iraq... A European contingent is being deployed to Lebanon... There are far more, this happens all the time. US is not the only world police force.

If it wasn't us, it would have been the Soviet Union. SH3 wouldn't even exist if that happenned. And most likely much of the internet wouldn't exist either. That's okay...you guys don't have to say thank you...i'll just say "you're welcome" on behalf of our "oppressive US regime" and leave it at that.

The US regime obviously isn't oppressive. If the US didn't exist I'm sure technology would progress just the same. the world is so globalised today anyway, the development of technologies is not a national affair.

#4 Even though the US is always one of the first countries to "come to the rescue" when there are emergencies and natural disasters, with the most money and assistance, even to enemies of the US, people still don't like us. I guess there's just no pleasing some folks.

Sure the US has lots of money to come to aid with, and many other economically powerful nations also offer financial or other aid. And many smaller countries help with what little money they have... its not much, but its a lot of money to them. Just have a look at the list of countries that offered aid to the US in the wake of Hurricane Katrina:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina
Aid to enemies of the US? Looks like its mutual... because they offer the US aid too.

Some of you guys can't let go of the "military" train of thought when it comes to wars. The advancements I was referring to that occured during wartime involved the advancements in medical treatment, space exploration, and sources of energy.
All of which are used during peacetime to make our lifestyles better.

Hmm, are we talking about the awesome medical advances made by experimenting with the jews? Or the race with the Russians to conquer space, costing millions, made possible by german engineers and scientists. Sources of energy... nuclear energy perhaps? ... Einstein never intended it to be used for military purposes when he came up with the concept. Sure war inevitably causes some sort of advancement, but with the purpose of fighting war better.

The simple fact is war has been with mankind since the first time the caveman clubbed his neighbor over the head for stealing his woman/land/water hole/etc. It will BE with us for a very long time to come. Get used to it and prepare for it.

Unfortunate and probably true...

That way you won't be caught with your pants down when the jihadists or whatever other loonies start setting off dirty bombs or other nastiness in your area.

I believe in peace...PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER.

Yeah yeah, i bet every second southerner has this as their bumper sticker... Firepower doesn't make peace, look at the all the peace it's made in Iraq.

Dep

[macstu23]

I've been to the States twice this year with work. Texas even...I rather enjoyed myself. And you know what ? The thing that surprised me most is that far from being the gun-loving commie hating tobacco chewin liberal loathing republican stereotypes that they are often painted as, I actually found the greater majority of Texans I met to be very friendly and hospitable. In fact a few of them, quite a lot even, weren't too happy with Mr. Bush and the image he'd given them both at home and abroad.

Then Dep came along :rotfl:

It's cool man...you're perfectly entitled to say what you said. But even a lot of Americans know that their media is strictly controlled. I would also like to point out that it was these so called 'Liberals' you hate that opposed British rule in the Colonies, wrote the U.S. Constitution, abolished slavery, and gave ordinary people like you and me the right to vote.

But for the purpose of swinging this thread back on topic, I have no problem with shegeek displaying a historically correct WW2 Kreigsmarine flag on a WW2 U-boat simulation forum. If you hung it from your front window, then I might worry.

[Deputy]

mac: Your experience is fairly common. But just because you don't SEE the guns, doesn't mean they ain't there. Texas has concealed carry too ;)
I don't chew tabaccy and I no longer hate Commies because they are no longer a viable threat any more. Well....I suppose the nutcase in Korea is a mild threat.
I am Liberal-loathing. Their answer to ANY probelm is raise taxes and throw money at it. Dubya may have done some things wrong, but he did put money back in our pockets. And the US economy seems to be alive and well no matter how much the doom-and-gloom Liberals say it is in trouble. Actually, the stock market seems to be doing better than ever :)
Am I worried about our image at home? I'm more worried about the thousands of illegal aliens swarming across the border. That's one of Bush's failures. And it smokes me to no end that he wants to give the illegals that are here amnesty.
Am I worried about our image overseas? Nope...couldn't care less.

As far as our media being strictly controlled...you are CORRECT!!! They are strictly controlled by LIBERAL ideas. All three major networks as well as CNN (Communist News Network) and HNN are just Liberal/left wing propaganda machines. FOX News is the one exception and is the ONLY channel that should be watched for fair and balanced information as well as just REPORTING the news instead of editorializing it.

You are playing with words when you associate the founding fathers with the term "Liberal", as used in present day definition. The present term of Liberal refers to the definition that evolved from the New Deal and the Great Society and that seeks to “bring about greater social equality through reliance on the federal government.”
That was NOT what the founding fathers had in mind. Liberal to them meant “Favorable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy" and “free from restraint; free in speech or action”. Hardly what the Libs of modern day represent.

Okay...here's one for you to twist around....is the United States a Democracy?
I'll save you the Google search, since the answer is NO!

Dep

[VON_CAPO]

As far as our media being strictly controlled...you are CORRECT!!! They are strictly controlled by LIBERAL ideas. All three major networks as well as CNN (Communist News Network) and HNN are just Liberal/left wing propaganda machines. FOX News is the one exception and is the ONLY channel that should be watched for fair and balanced information as well as just REPORTING the news instead of editorializing it.
I live in NYC, I have heard many tales about southern States and their population's particular point of view.

Now I realize that they are not tales... they are facts. :nope::nope::nope:

I am worried that those right wing extremists can push new legislations against the rest of America. :-?

[Deputy]

As far as our media being strictly controlled...you are CORRECT!!! They are strictly controlled by LIBERAL ideas. All three major networks as well as CNN (Communist News Network) and HNN are just Liberal/left wing propaganda machines. FOX News is the one exception and is the ONLY channel that should be watched for fair and balanced information as well as just REPORTING the news instead of editorializing it.

I live in NYC, I have heard many tales about southern States and their population's particular point of view.

Now I realize that they are not tales... they are facts. :nope::nope::nope:

I am worried that those right wing extremists can push new legislations againts the rest of America. :-?

Ummmm...here's a newsflash for you. New Mexico is NOT a "southern state".
It fought on the side of the Union in the Civil War. It's a WESTWERN state. Right wing extremist...hardly. Conservative...DEFINITELY. And a a loyal "dittohead" too :up:
As a matter of fact, I am actively working to get the Castle Doctrine put into law in New Mexico.

Dep

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Let me clarify some things to you "Deputy."

I spent seven years in the UNITED STATES ARMY FIELD ARTILLERY defending her from all enemies foreign and domestic and your right to spew crap all over the place.

I smoke cigarettes, drink coffee, and wear quick-zip tactical boots when I am at work in the back of my ambulance. I don't wear a cowboy hat or chew tobacco.

I believe in peace through superior firepower. I also believe that when the shooting stops... that you should treat your enemy as a human being in the end. You shouldn't have to remind them every day that you've beaten them. It is a matter of record.

My grandfather died in 1980 as a result of inoperable shrapnel stuck in his spine having caused a systemic infection when it worked its way loose.

He was my hero mate... and I was ten years old.

He received that wound from a German land mine near Lyons France in 1944 when he served with the "T-Patchers"... the 36th Infantry division formerly based in Brownwood, Texas. He served in the North African, Sicilian, Italian, and Southern French campaigns. He was at Kesserine Pass, Salerno, Monte Cassino and other famous battles.

He was a cook until the Battle of San Pietro... where his battalion was OVERRUN the first time the Germans used four of the "new" the King Tigers against our guys... Those beasts were impervious to everything we had... and he picked up a bazooka and fired four times just to knock off a tread. I can only imagine the desparation that leads to such things.

He served out the rest of the war as an anti-tank platoon sargeant. He never talked about any of the other combats he was involved in... and believe me.. we asked... as shameless kids do.

My own research indicates his unit stayed in contact with the enemy for months at a time.

His Purple Heart medal holds a place of honor in our family.

Before and after the war, he didn't drink, smoke, swear, or tell lies. He went to church on Sundays and on Wednesday.

I tell you also, that if I manage to be 10% of the man he was... I can die happy.

I am a patriotic American... however "unpopular" that may be these days... and the swastica does not confuse me.

... and by all rights... maybe I could hold it against the Germans for taking my hero away.

... but you know what? They are human beings with limitations and faults just like anyone else. We killed them too... and I imagine there's lots of people in Germany who lost their grandfathers in WWII.

My Grandfather died as a result of defending your freedom to talk out of the side of your head. Your freedom to do exactly that... wasn't free. Your freedom of speech though, should end where the noses of others begin.

At the very least the Germans had the courage to put on a uniform and face us like men... which is more than I can say for the enemies our country faces today.

The swastika should never be banned. Banning the swastica would just make it too easy to forget all that happened when it was a common item in the world.

I think it would be great if kids now would see the swastica, asked questions about it... and spent at least a few minutes contemplating being in a cold watery foxhole, in the dark, surrounded by deafening noise, dead friends, and terrified to the point of near insanity.

Unfortunately, I think kids now couldn't care less.

Your attitude sucks... and you need to learn how to state your "opinions" without implying that someone who takes the opposite side of this argument with you is "Nazi friendly."

One last note... The next time you see a veteran... Say "thank you." It only takes a drop of courage to talk to someone you don't know for ten seconds.

You owe them.

[Deputy]

Kpt. Lehmann: I don't know where that outburst came from. I thought everyone was having a pretty civil dialogue. Oh yeah...on the "next time you see a veteran... Say "thank you." thing....I'd just be talking to myself. And I'm not that crazy (yet).

Dep

C Company
2nd Battalion
60th Regiment
9th Infantry Divison (Old Reliables)
RVN 1968-69

Normally I don't like remembering that time of my life. But the Kpt needs to sit back and think about the BS HE is spouting.

[Dowly]

...civil dialogue...
...BS HE is spouting.
Speaking of civil dialogue and the BS that Kpt. is spouting.

Sieg Heil
You even were kind enough to correct the spelling from 'Seig' to 'Sieg', just to make sure I´d get the message.

[Deputy]

Sieg Heil
You even were kind enough to correct the spelling from 'Seig' to 'Sieg', just to make sure I´d get the message.[/quote]

It was a needle. Just like the one you stuck in me about the US LOSING the war in Viet Nam (which they DIDN'T). Like I said a few times already...if you dish it out you have to be able to take it.

Dep

[Dowly]

Ok, then tell me. What was the outcome of Vietnam War? US sure didnt win it.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

@Deputy
Apparently you didn't bother to read my whole post or you would understand where "my little outburst" comes from.

Until now, I've never shared those thoughts with anyone.

Though, I'm sure it was just "brainwashed fundamentalist bible-belt dribble" to you.

Sure, you've earned the right to your opinion. The problems are that you've taken this thread and made it your pulpit to preach from... force feeding your opinion right down everyone's throat without the slightest exploration of "understanding another person's point of view" or things like "basic respect" that you should grant every individual until they give you a real reason to lose it.

You've made personal attacks both directly and implied... and you are stating your opinion over and over with intent to convert everyone to your myopic point of view.

No wonder Americans are often viewed as arrogant and bombastic. You wave your freedom of speech like a flag to the damnation of all... without a care in the world of the consequences.

People like you start wars. The crap you spout is a part of the problem... not part of the solution.

There is a time for all things including war.

... but you must never forget that HERE you are part of a multinational community... You represent our country.

Your poor attitude is projected across thousands of miles to hundreds of people in many countries.

Just as your words touched a nerve in me that I thought I'd buried pretty well...

...Your words may also inspire someone to kill an American one day... simply because he or she is an American.

It is never too late to learn "thought before speech." There is always a price to pay for actions that are not well thought out. Unfortunately, it isn't always you that has to pay the price.

[Gizzmoe]

To everyone who´d helped to hijack the thread a big "Thank you"! :dead:

[Deputy]

Ok, then tell me. What was the outcome of Vietnam War? US sure didnt win it.

The US was completely gone in 1973. The war ended in 1975. The war was a battle between North Vietnam and South Vietnam. It was for the South Vietnamese to win or lose. When we started withdrawing in 1970 the Mekong Delta was completely free of the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese were on the defensive. The South Vietnamese had to win the war, not us. Note that no US flag flew ANYWHERE in South Vietnam, except over the US embassy. The South Vietnamese didn't because they didn't have the dedication that the North Vietnamese had. We did all we could for them. They lost it...not us. I have no doubt if we withdraw from Iraq that country will go down the toilet just like Vietnam did. Civil war followed by Iran taking over is the likely outcome. Again...I was against the Iraq war from the day Bush got his "okey-doke" from the Congress to wage it. I support our troops...but not our President in that matter. Best bet is a division of the country into three states.

Kpt. Lehmann: Your bombastic speech was read in it's entirety. It was confused, obscure, and obtuse to say the least. I am less than impressed with an artillery background. Unless you were an FO with the troops in the front line, you didn't have to face the enemy up close and personal. THAT is defending the country in it's most down and dirty form. Pretty much everyone has a relative that died in some war. It isn't exclusive to you and it doesn't give your opinions more legitimacy than anyone else. You don't like my attitude...no problemo.
As far as my words inspiring someone to kill an American some day...gimme a break.
I don't think there is a large crowd of Islamic Jihadists on this forum. Let's leave the dramatics for the drama club. I think it's about time the "silent majority" of US citizens stood up for what they beleive is right. You want to play kissyface with those who hate us....be my guest. But when I see some nitwit call the US a terrorist state because we ended the war against Japan by nuking them...I gotta respond.

Dep

[SteamWake]

To everyone who´d helped to hijack the thread a big "Thank you"! :dead:

Phew boy ! Got that right ! :doh:

[Deputy]

To everyone who´d helped to hijack the thread a big "Thank you"! :dead:

Refer to post #109. I think that's where things started going awry :)

Dep

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Kpt. Lehmann: Your bombastic speech was read in it's entirety. It was confused, obscure, and obtuse to say the least. I am less than impressed with an artillery background. Unless you were an FO with the troops in the front line, you didn't have to face the enemy up close and personal. THAT is defending the country in it's most down and dirty form. Pretty much everyone has a relative that died in some war. It isn't exclusive to you and it doesn't give your opinions more legitimacy than anyone else. You don't like my attitude...no problemo.
As far as my words inspiring someone to kill an American some day...gimme a break.
I don't think there is a large crowd of Islamic Jihadists on this forum. Let's leave the dramatics for the drama club. I think it's about time the "silent majority" of US citizens stood up for what they beleive is right. You want to play kissyface with those who hate us....be my guest. But when I see some nitwit call the US a terrorist state because we ended the war against Japan by nuking them...I gotta respond.

Dep

... and out comes Deputy crusading for mom and apple pie! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Hey, you picked the fight with Dowly. You will no doubt keep spouting your trash and alienating everyone here no matter what anyone has to say.

Great job man. You corrected a guy in Finland about the U.S. involvement in Vietnam!

I don't recall Dowly ever mentioning to you that in the early days of the war... Finland stood against an invasion from the Soviet Union for WEEKS!!!

Apparently according to you not serving in Vietnam invalidates my service... and the same for any risk I deal with on a day to day basis. Its a good thing I don't have to grade my life using your criteria.

LOL, there is nothing confusing or obscure about my posts. I just don't pander to pseudo-intellectuals.

This is Subsim.com. Go find another community to walk on and rant to. You must have a sad little life if picking fights on these forums is the best thing you have to do.

"Silent MAJORITY" what a load of crap.

[Danelov]

I agree 100 % with Kpt.Lehmann and I have finded only a word to define the "Deputy" words:

PATETIC

God can help us if in your country there a lot of people thinking like you.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

I agree 100 % with Kpt.Lehmann and I have finded only a word to define the "Deputy" words:

PATETIC

God can help us if in your country there a lot of people thinking like you.

Don't worry Danelov. Deputy only represents a minority that is screaming for attention.

Someone here should count all the "yes" or "no" opinions and post the tally.

I have my money on the "No its not too offensive" lot.

[Dowly]

But when I see some nitwit call the US a terrorist state because we ended the war against Japan by nuking them...I gotta respond.

So, if the Germany would have got it´s nukes ready in time, it would have been ok to nuke the Britain, Soviet Union and USA to end the war?? Or are you saying that it´s ok to nuke people as long as USA is the one to do it?

[MothBalls]

I used to like this forum.

I think I'll just leave now.

Just to check;

<drops pencil> gravity works, world is still spinning
<opens window> sun is still shining
<takes deep breath> hmmm, fresh air




Bye and good luck to all of you. Have fun with the GAME.

[macstu23]

Okay...here's one for you to twist around....is the United States a Democracy?
I'll save you the Google search, since the answer is NO!

Dep

I am perfectly aware that the United States, and the United Kingdom, are no more true democracies than the USSR was a true communist state.

[JJ]

Ok, maybe this particular part of the discussion is already dealt and buried but I thought I'd add my 5 cents to this Finland-German ally thingy...

Truth is that Finland was merely a pawn in the big game between Germany and Russia. Germany needed Finland to secure their occupation in Norway and have a steady ground for their campaign advancing to Russia. And Russians thought Finland would've made a nice little stronghold on the front. By occupying Finland they would've have full control over Baltic Sea among other things. Finns in the middle had to choose the lesser of two evils since the russian option would've meant kissing goodbye to independence. The german option brought Finland the arms and supplies they badly needed not to mention the manpower. Finland never shared the views and agendas of the Third Reich nor did they ever fight for Third Reich's cause.

Personally I prefer the german option over the russian and (despite not being very patriotic) I salute the Germans along the Finnish soldiers who fought here. Dead or alive. Third Reich or not.

[SkvyWvr]

Okay...here's one for you to twist around....is the United States a Democracy?
I'll save you the Google search, since the answer is NO!

Dep

I am perfectly aware that the United States, and the United Kingdom, are no more true democracies than the USSR was a true communist state.

It's a Republic.

[SkvyWvr]

Ok, maybe this particular part of the discussion is already dealt and buried but I thought I'd add my 5 cents to this Finland-German ally thingy...

Truth is that Finland was merely a pawn in the big game between Germany and Russia. Germany needed Finland to secure their occupation in Norway and have a steady ground for their campaign advancing to Russia. And Russians thought Finland would've made a nice little stronghold on the front. By occupying Finland they would've have full control over Baltic Sea among other things. Finns in the middle had to choose the lesser of two evils since the russian option would've meant kissing goodbye to independence. The german option brought Finland the arms and supplies they badly needed not to mention the manpower. Finland never shared the views and agendas of the Third Reich nor did they ever fight for Third Reich's cause.

Personally I prefer the german option over the russian and (despite not being very patriotic) I salute the Germans along the Finnish soldiers who fought here. Dead or alive. Third Reich or not.

I have already agreed with this point. The Finns were in a very bad situation and managed to pull through. They didi what they had to do to preserve their nation.:up:

[SkvyWvr]

As far as our media being strictly controlled...you are CORRECT!!! They are strictly controlled by LIBERAL ideas. All three major networks as well as CNN (Communist News Network) and HNN are just Liberal/left wing propaganda machines. FOX News is the one exception and is the ONLY channel that should be watched for fair and balanced information as well as just REPORTING the news instead of editorializing it.
I live in NYC, I have heard many tales about southern States and their population's particular point of view.

Now I realize that they are not tales... they are facts. :nope::nope::nope:

I am worried that those right wing extremists can push new legislations against the rest of America. :-?

I was born and raised in Brooklyn. Lived there till joining the Navy. I lived in the "South" now for almost 30yrs and am therefore qualified to make this comment: I am glad I was not around to watch the Liberals take over my hometown.

[Sir Big Jugs]

I must say Dep, I won't bother to even try to have a descent discussion with people like you. I know it's worthless anyway.
USA is and has been for over 200 years a major superpower. You never faced a situation like Finland, fighting ALONE against an enemy with far superior amount of weapons and weapon modernity.

Finnish Side:
250,000 men
30 tanks
130 aircraft

Soviet Side:
1,000,000 men
3,000 tanks
3,800 aircraft

"Soviet losses on the front were tremendous, and the country's international standing suffered. Even worse, the fighting ability of the Red Army was put into question, a fact that some argue contributed to Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. Finally, the Soviet forces did not accomplish their primary objective of conquest of Finland, but gained only a secession of territory along Lake Ladoga. The Finns retained their sovereignity and gained considerable international goodwill."

Salute, all brave Finnish soldiers who fought against such an overwhelming enemy. You are not forgotten! Hakkaa Päälle!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Finn_ski_troops.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Winter_war.jpg

http://winterwar.com/images/finvssu.jpg

[SkvyWvr]

But when I see some nitwit call the US a terrorist state because we ended the war against Japan by nuking them...I gotta respond.

So, if the Germany would have got it´s nukes ready in time, it would have been ok to nuke the Britain, Soviet Union and USA to end the war?? Or are you saying that it´s ok to nuke people as long as USA is the one to do it?

No, it wouldn't have been OK, but only a fool would think Germany wouldn't have done it.

[August]

USA is and has been for over 200 years a major superpower. You never faced a situation like Finland, fighting ALONE against an enemy with far superior amount of weapons and weapon modernity.

Actually we've only been a super power since the end of WW2 and we have faced such an enemy both in our revolutionary war against the British and again at the start of WW2 against the Germans and Japanese.

But that shouldn't detract from the outstanding job you Finns did against the Bolsheviks.

[Sir Big Jugs]

Oops, sorry.:p

Don't know my history too well I think...;)

[The Noob]

The finns did fight good. Even a Commie like me honros your troops, they did fight incredible. Not even Rambo would have had a chance against these People. ;)

And i like the "Northern Countrys" as we ppl in Austria call it. Sweden did have a nice idea, a mix of everything, Communism Socialism Capitalism ecetera, so living was nice there. And is still today in all of that countrys "Up there".

If i did say anything offending sorry, but i don't know your Finn stuff to well...;)

[Danelov]

Quote:"Soviet losses on the front were tremendous, and the country's international standing suffered. Even worse, the fighting ability of the Red Army was put into question, a fact that some argue contributed to Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. Finally, the Soviet forces did not accomplish their primary objective of conquest of Finland, but gained only a secession of territory along Lake Ladoga. The Finns retained their sovereignity and gained considerable international goodwill."

Where you have finded that, in Reader Digest?



We go to the point after all this years, utilising for that neutral informations , no comunist propaganda, no Finnish or other propaganda.

First point , Molotov had make a petition the 31th October to corriged the frontier of some kilometers and that´s, sorry, but had a certain logic. Leningrad, today San Petesburg , was the second city of the URSS and is a 32 km of the Finnish border. Translading that to another scenery ,can you imagine the Citizens of Miami leaving at 32 km of Cuba? Wich can be the reaction of the USA people?
URSS was attacked from 1917 by White Russian, merceneries armed by the German,British, Poland ,USA, latter Japanese and then the Germans and was always under menace.Many of this expeditions anti-bolchevik had departed from Finnish territory.The safety of the Country was primordial ,specially for a so big city like Leningrad with so many industries, harbour,militar instalations, etc.
The petition of Stalin were clear the 12-10-39 :

1-The rent of the Base of Hanko
2-Cession of all external islands in the Gulf of Finland including Surursari
3-Frontier pushed of 65 km to make this one far of Leningrad
4-A portion of territory of the peninsule of Rybacij

In exchange Stalin gived to Finnland the Soviet Carelia( most of the double of the territory demanded by the Soviets, the aceptation of fortifications by Finland of the Islands AAland and the reatification of the pact of no agression of 1932.

In any moment the Soviet had intention of conquer Finland , not in 1939 and not in 1944 and the history is very clear about that!!!
There a good amount of books to read about that.And neutrals and objetives;No commies, or Imperialist Gringos, or Nazis,etc.

The Soviet propositions were rejected the the 12-10-39 ,Mannerheim had try to arrive a compromiss informing the Goverment that the Finnish Army can resist maybe two weeks maximum in a eventuell war , but he was only suported by Paasikivi.
The 03-11-39 the Finnish delegation was informed about the intentions of Stalin to purchase the base of Hanko, but that was also rejected by the Finnish.
The 13-11-39 the delegation of the Finnish Goverment and the Soviets had another encounter in Moscow , but the Finnish delegation had before received orders of cut all new speeches.
The 15th November and after all tentatives to arrive a pacific solution were discarted, the Soviet Army received the order to prepare to war.
The 26-11-39 a Mainila several Soviet soldiers were killed under artillery fire.The Soviet accusing of that the Finnish, but this ones replies the artillery fire was not done by his troops; and that´s true, the fire had come from the Soviet side of the border.The 27-11-39 Finland proposse the bilateral retiring of the troops; the 28-11-39 the Soviet Union dennonced the Pact of no Agression, the 29-11-39 broke the diplomatic relations with Finland no accepting the Finnish proposition of bilateral retiring of troops and the 30th November 1939 start the Invasion of Finland.
The tentatives of the Allieds(France and England) to entry in war together with Finnland were postponed ,Sweden had not accepted the transit of this troops in his territory and by the 17-02-40 the situation start to change drastically for the Finnish Army after lossing the line Mannerheim.The 23-02-40 were maked the first contact for a possible armistice via the Swedish Goverment; conditions by the Soviets are like the same :The rent of Hanko for 30 years, the Itsme of Carelia and the zone of the Ladoga lake ,exaclty the border of Peter The Great in 1721.
The 26th February the Sweden inform the allied if his territory was violated by the British and French troops , he must entry in war againts Finland,France England and involuntary allied with the Soviets.
The 5th March France and England sugest Finnland to make a "official Invitation" to intervene in the war againt the Soviet, and maybe also againt the Sweden.This propossion was postponed the same day to the 12th march.
But was too late .The 6th March the Finnish delegation under the lead of the 1th minister Ryti fly to Moscow to prepare the signature of the armistice.The Soviet propossition were again not accepted initially, but by the 9th March the militar situation was too catastrofic for the Finnish Army and the signature to save something was necessary.
The 11th March France and England make public his declaration with the offer of intervention.But the same day Sweden and also Norway declaring his opossition and the negative to allow the transit of troops in his territories.

And the same day the Finnish delegation signed the armistice and the war ended the 13 March 1940.
The war was very costly for the Soviets ,48.745 deaths and 158.000 wounded ,many by congellation.He had also show the serious carences and deficiences of the Red Army ,specially in officers, heavy handicaped after the purgues of 1937.
Finnish losses were 25.000 deaths and 45.000 wounded.

After the war Finland had loss a 10% of his territory ,his second most important city ,Viipuri and a important industrial center at Vuoski.The historical border of Peter the Great were stablished for the Soviets ,Hanko was now in rent for 30 years and the half of the Peninsule of Rybacij was now in Soviet hands. Petsamo was returned to Finland.

Quite different with the Reader Digest Version ,ehhh;) ?But I assure you, that´s exaclty true ,and nothing of propaganda here...

[Immacolata]

BTW...wasn't Finland an ALLY of Germany in WW2?
Seig Heil.

Dep

:stare:
Did you had to put that ''Seig Heil'' under it?
sorry dude but thats low to say.
dont use that word like that, thats offensive

I take more offense in the fact that he can't spell to save his life.

[Immacolata]

And before you re-write history, the US did NOT lose the war in Viet Nam. That war was lost AFTER the US had withdrawn. Prior to that time, the US had NOT lost a battle in Viet Nam and the Communists were in full retreat on every front.
If the anti-war peaceniks and Liberals and Liberal media in the US hadn't stabbed the troops in the back, and the government had taken the restraints off the military to use any and all means necessary to win the war, it would have all been over VERY quickly. A few strategically-placed tactical nukes and pappa Ho would have been at the bargaining table in a flash.


I think you should go to school more. Learn german, and figure out something about how international politics works. A tac nuke in Vietnam would have set a very dangerous precedent. Why, the russkies could have said, the so called american freedom lovers used nuclear weapons to subjugate the free will of people of Vietnam. I see no reason why we should restrain ourselves. Come on, comrades. Let us nuke Afghanistan and teach those dogs what freedom is.

And over in India, they would figure out that this nasty Kashmir business could end real fast like. And at this point, Damascus, Cairo and Teheran would be a smoldering rubblescape courtesy their common foe, who thought why not end this once and for all.

I mean, if the US finds tacnukes are a good means of coercion, why shouldn't we? For more than a thousand of years there has been this ancient tradition of war. You need a cause and a justification. It is still so. The A bombs were butchery, a dirty way to end the war. A one time trump card. And then we can't use it again because we see how devastating it is, short term and long term.

[kiwi_2005]

Finnish Side:
250,000 men
30 tanks
130 aircraft

Soviet Side:
1,000,000 men
3,000 tanks
3,800 aircraft



New Zealand Side
9000 men
Zero tanks
Zero Aircraft
3 frigates
:roll::nope:

[kiwi_2005]

Usually if a ppl are fighting in their own country they are hard to beat. The Fins stop Russia, Russia stopped the Germans, Vietcong made the US go home, Iraq will probably do the same - meaning USA, its a waste of time us fighting here lets go home!

IMHO, even if the US did not drop the bomb on Japan and instead attacked them with troops it would of been one very long bloody battle.

When you defend your own country its a good enough reason to die for it.

[Skybird]

We had the following court sentence yesterday: a man who was selling flags, shirts and buttons with swastikas being shattered by fists, giant rocks or shoes or that were crossed out, sometimes even had text saying some anti-fascist sloagns, effectively expressing anti-fascism by that, has been found guilty to violate the law that prohibit the display of the swastika in Germany, due to the terrible historical context in whcih it was abused. He was sentenced to paying around 3000 euro, and all his stocks are gone.

Some people are angry about that. I can understand them. such buttons had been around since my school days in the eighties. FIFA had the very same symbol (a swastika in a red circle, being crossed out by a red bar) at the entrances of the footbal stadiums in Germany. Showing you anti-fascist attiude by wearing such things now brings you in danger of being arrested and brought to court.

State attorney said it is about preventing the playing-down of the terirble historical events that took place under the Nazi swastika, so that the memory of these croimes does not become an object of marginalization and profanisation when it is used undiscriminately, by habit, and so the context gets forgotten and ignored until it is some fresh idea of young fashion, an acessoir to be considered as being "hip" at a party, and people no longer associating what the Nazi swastika actually was meaning for so many victims. - I can understand that as well.

concerning the use of the swastika in games and excusing that by "historical realism" and correctness, that is nonsens, because define the correctness and realsim of a histiral sim not by paint, but by functionality (of vehicle model'S behavior, for example), and the ideological and informational context in which the action of the game in question is embedded. IL2 in Germany comes with deactivated swastika. The realism and correctness of the sim does not suffer a bit from that. It does not win anything when activating that symbol (via in Germany forbidden cheat). Someone who wishes so much to fight in a uniform or vehicle of the Nazis, with original Nazi symbol, really should ask himself if he is not illustrating exactly that kind of profanisation and ignorration of historcial contexts of what the Nazis did the state attorney said he wants to prevent. a camouflage pattern that matches history is one thing, and may fulfill a certain function on the sim. the swastika is not, it's only tasteless eye-candy. 58 million dead are too terrible as that one should easily turn symbols of that slaughtering into acessoires of lifestyle today. that the symbol orginally had a different meaning and was hijacked by the Nazis,like the SS-rune, does not change that now it is linked to certain historical events as well. And that should not be forgotten, or played own.

So, I personally would be satisfied with a more consistent interpretation of the laws. What is forbidden for the salesman on the street - cannot be allowed for FIFA.

[Deputy]

When you defend your own country its a good enough reason to die for it.

BTW...the purpose of war is to make the OTHER guy "die for his country".

I find it interesting that so many of these outspoken individuals that have made literally HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of posts on this forum, haven't taken the time to post ANYTHING about themselves. One of the first things I did when I signed up here was to give some background information about myself. All I see from others are a few tidbits about where they live. How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults?

Immacolata: So people living under a Communist regime are doing so under their own free will? Is that for all the freedoms and rights they are guaranteed under that Communist regime? Kinda makes me wonder why the Germans in East Germany were so happy to tear down that wall. I will tell you right now...if a serious enough event happens to the US or Israel, look for mushroom clouds to start appearing in Iran or Syria or wherever that event originates from. And don't think for a minute that NATO wouldn't have used tactical nukes in Europe if the Soviets rolled into your area.
You need to lookup tactical nukes. They are used in the BATTLEFIELD, not on cities like STRATEGIC nukes. A few tactical nukes along the border of North-South Vietnam would have stopped the swarm of invaders in their tracks, along with making that border unuseable for may years to come. Most likely it would have sent the Communist rats scurrying for the peace table as fast as they could run.

All this BS about the US being butchers for using STRATEGIC nukes in Japan makes me laugh. I didn't see any of YOUR countries volunteering to help invade Japan. It would have been "okay" for you guys if the US lost thousands of troops invading Japan, but it's not okay to bomb Japan to the peace table. We had a strategic advantage with the possession of the A-Bomb. We used it. We would have been stupid NOT to have used it. All this "honorable" crapola about fighting a war is just plain ridiculous. We are not WW1 fighter pilots any more. There is NO honor in warfare. There is just DEATH. The more death you wreak on the enemy, the quicker he sues for peace. It's the fact that a nuclear confrontation would mean all the civilians and politicians and other "innocents" would DIE that kept the Soviet Union and the US from all-out war. But that has changed with the Islamic Jihadists. They WANT to die. I guess virgins are at a premium in Islamic countries, because that is the big promise they are given for "heaven".
As far as nukes in the Middle East...it is the next most likely location where they will go off. I would bet on it. Israel already has them. And I don't think they will be used just on the battlefield. Iran is not interested in killing enemy troops. They weren't aiming at troops with those former Soviet rockets they were launching at Israel. Use of WMDs by any warring faction will almost guarantee the use of the same or worse back.

BTW...Afghanisatn is on OUR side now. Don't go running off willy-nilly nuking folks unless they are your enemy. :rotfl:

Dep

[Perilscope]

One of the first things I did when I signed up here was to give some background information about myself.
Where, I can't find anything? :o

How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults?
For that, trust me, you will know soon enough who's under age and who's not, and I am not talking about age, about mentality.
However, some young folks here are far more educated and have a better philosophy of life than some grown-ups, but very few. :shifty:

[August]

How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults? For that, trust me, you will know soon enough who's under age and who's not, and I am not talking about age, about mentality.[/quote]

I agree. Posting age and occupation proves nothing. I could easily make a post claiming I am 175 years old and the King of England but that wouldn't make it true.

[Sir Big Jugs]

I am 175 years old and the King of England

Nice to meet you. I am 79 years old and the Pope of the Catholic Church.

[Deputy]

One of the first things I did when I signed up here was to give some background information about myself.
Where, I can't find anything? :o


How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults?
For that, trust me, you will know soon enough who's under age and who's not, and I am not talking about age, about mentality.
However, some young folks here are far more educated and have a better philosophy of life than some grown-ups, but very few. :shifty:


Subim forums class 101. Click on "Deputy" in the left column where one of my posts is. You will find my DOB, where I am located, and age. Seems like some young folks are pretty inexperienced at using internet forums as well as "worldly affairs". :lol:
I am already finding out from various posts the maturity level of some of the forum members. Just wondering why they feel the need to hide it. How a teenager who has only experieced a very few short years of life can have a "better philosophy" is beyond me.

Dep

[Deputy]

How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults? For that, trust me, you will know soon enough who's under age and who's not, and I am not talking about age, about mentality.

I agree. Posting age and occupation proves nothing. I could easily make a post claiming I am 175 years old and the King of England but that wouldn't make it true.[/quote]

So are you 175 and the King of England? :rotfl:
If everyone posting on here is concealing information from the outset, than how can ANY post be taken seriously and any poster be believed?
As Perilscope said...I will be able to recognize who is mature and who isn't by what they post. At least posting your age would give you an excuse for an immature/inexperienced post. Of course, if you ARE 175, you have already figured this out. :smug:

Dep

[Deputy]

I am 175 years old and the King of England

Nice to meet you. I am 79 years old and the Pope of the Catholic Church.

I like your attitude about Islam. Don't apologize to them for telling the truth.
But I'm surprised the Pope plays SH3. Do you also have the swastika flag on your U-Boats? :D

Dep

[Perilscope]

Subim forums class 101. Click on "Deputy" in the left column where one of my posts is. You will find my DOB, where I am located, and age.
Oh, the information in the profile, pretty bleak, I thought you posted in here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=87423
I looked all over for your post in there but I didn't see it, that's why I asked where?
Now I understand, you entered that info in your profile only, sorry, my mistake, won't happen again. ;)


Seems like some young folks are pretty inexperienced at using internet forums as well as "worldly affairs". :lol:
Nah! inexperienced at using internet forums I am not, I actually hack them!
Moreover, I need to inform you that in the world of webmasters, "hack" does not mean "break in" illegally, but simply modify on behalf of my clients who install forum software.

...Just wondering why they feel the need to hide it. How a teenager who has only experieced a very few short years of life can have a "better philosophy" is beyond me.

Since the quote "better philosophy" was initially made by me, I have to respond.
If you don't remember my previous post, here is the part in question:

However, some young folks here are far more educated and have a better philosophy of life than some grown-ups, but very few.
As you can read, I said "some young folks", it doesn't mean "all" young folks are more educated and have better philosophy. Just some.


And now, since you posted this next comment, quoted below:
How a teenager who has only experieced a very few short years of life can have a "better philosophy" is beyond me.
I have to say that nowhere I said teenager. And even if I would have said teenager, yes, some teenagers with only 19 years on this planet could have better philosophy. Moreover, I really don't know why you think age is so important. I am 30 years old and I would prefer to have conversation with my sons and daughter before many adults around here.

[Takeda Shingen]

Can it be that we are all sitting and waiting for the next punch to be thrown? Then let it be so: Bring forth the brave political gladius bearers! Where are Yahoshua and his popcorn?

[August]

If everyone posting on here is concealing information from the outset, than how can ANY post be taken seriously and any poster be believed?
As Perilscope said...I will be able to recognize who is mature and who isn't by what they post. At least posting your age would give you an excuse for an immature/inexperienced post. Of course, if you ARE 175, you have already figured this out. :smug:

Dep

I may not be 175 but i am old enough to recognize that it's smart to take anything you read, especially on an internet forum with a large grain of salt.

[The Noob]

If you would know how much i love such Semi-Flamewars! It's even more interesting then playing games, actually.

[Deputy]

And now, since you posted this next comment, quoted below:
How a teenager who has only experieced a very few short years of life can have a "better philosophy" is beyond me.
I have to say that nowhere I said teenager. And even if I would have said teenager, yes, some teenagers with only 19 years on this planet could have better philosophy. Moreover, I really don't know why you think age is so important. I am 30 years old and I would prefer to have conversation with my sons and daughter before many adults around here.[/quote]

Actually, you didn't say teenager and I was being generous with ranking them as being that old. They could be YOUNGER than that too :D
And I have also seen the comment that "some young folks here are far more educated and have a better philosophy of life than some grown-ups" posted often before when someone brings up the age/experience question. I don't buy it. If that were the case we'd be allowing them to vote and hold political positions.
Posting age and employment information may not "prove anything", but I find that those that don't I take less seriously than those that do. But that's just me. :p

Dep

[bradclark1]

Can it be that we are all sitting and waiting for the next punch to be thrown? Then let it be so: Bring forth the brave political gladius bearers! Where are Yahoshua and his popcorn?
Why don't you go do some cycling instead of posting your same crap all the time?

[ASWnut101]

I will tell you right now...if a serious enough event happens to the US or Israel, look for mushroom clouds to start appearing in Iran or Syria or wherever that event originates from. And don't think for a minute that NATO wouldn't have used tactical nukes in Europe if the Soviets rolled into your area.....


.....As far as nukes in the Middle East...it is the next most likely location where they will go off. I would bet on it.


And I wouldn't have one problem with it. I'm in agreement with nearly everything Dep. has to say.:up:

[kiwi_2005]

When you defend your own country its a good enough reason to die for it.
BTW...the purpose of war is to make the OTHER guy "die for his country". Dep
Yep, but when a ppl are fighting against an enemy on their own land its a whole different war to them, their determination to win would probably be trebled compared to the opposite side. Your fighting for your country. I wonder our many americans in iraq are actually fighting because they want to or doing it because they have too. I wonder if they really give a toss if they win - as long as they survive the tour and get home thats probably all that matters to them. As its not their country its someone elses.

I find it interesting that so many of these outspoken individuals that have made literally HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of posts on this forum, haven't taken the time to post ANYTHING about themselves. One of the first things I did when I signed up here was to give some background information about myself. All I see from others are a few tidbits about where they live. How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults?

Dep
Age 42
Occupation - self employed.
Best thing to ever happen to me: Divorce.
Worse thing to ever happen to me: Slipping with a screwdriver resulting in a hole through a brand new motherboard while trying to attach a cpu.:nope:
Hobbies - pig hunting, gaming, addicted horror/war/comedy movie watcher. Ex builder in PC's (see the above). long walks.
Oh and forum surfer - especially subsim:arrgh!:

[TteFAboB]

Occupation - self employed.

In New Zealand that means Sheep herder. :up:

:p

[SubSerpent]

Sieg Heil
You even were kind enough to correct the spelling from 'Seig' to 'Sieg', just to make sure I´d get the message.

It was a needle. Just like the one you stuck in me about the US LOSING the war in Viet Nam (which they DIDN'T). Like I said a few times already...if you dish it out you have to be able to take it.

Dep


We did lose the war in Vietnam Deputy! I hate to burst your bubble mate, but the baby killings over there didn't go over to well here, remember?

The war was unwinnable and nothing was accomplished there accpet further putting our government into debt with costly carpet bombings that did nothing but make a lot of trees turn into toothpicks. This obviously made finding the enemy even more difficult for us since they were all about the size of toothpicks to begin with. Therefore it was like trying to find a division of toothpicks in a huge pile of toothpicks to shoot at.

Weed and war don't mix well either and neither did all that other crap you guys did back then. It's kinda hard to shoot Mickey Mouse when your high as a kite on PCP!:nope:

[Happy Times]

Quote:"Soviet losses on the front were tremendous, and the country's international standing suffered. Even worse, the fighting ability of the Red Army was put into question, a fact that some argue contributed to Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. Finally, the Soviet forces did not accomplish their primary objective of conquest of Finland, but gained only a secession of territory along Lake Ladoga. The Finns retained their sovereignity and gained considerable international goodwill."

Where you have finded that, in Reader Digest?



We go to the point after all this years, utilising for that neutral informations , no comunist propaganda, no Finnish or other propaganda.

First point , Molotov had make a petition the 31th October to corriged the frontier of some kilometers and that´s, sorry, but had a certain logic. Leningrad, today San Petesburg , was the second city of the URSS and is a 32 km of the Finnish border. Translading that to another scenery ,can you imagine the Citizens of Miami leaving at 32 km of Cuba? Wich can be the reaction of the USA people?
URSS was attacked from 1917 by White Russian, merceneries armed by the German,British, Poland ,USA, latter Japanese and then the Germans and was always under menace.Many of this expeditions anti-bolchevik had departed from Finnish territory.The safety of the Country was primordial ,specially for a so big city like Leningrad with so many industries, harbour,militar instalations, etc.
The petition of Stalin were clear the 12-10-39 :

1-The rent of the Base of Hanko
2-Cession of all external islands in the Gulf of Finland including Surursari
3-Frontier pushed of 65 km to make this one far of Leningrad
4-A portion of territory of the peninsule of Rybacij

In exchange Stalin gived to Finnland the Soviet Carelia( most of the double of the territory demanded by the Soviets, the aceptation of fortifications by Finland of the Islands AAland and the reatification of the pact of no agression of 1932.

In any moment the Soviet had intention of conquer Finland , not in 1939 and not in 1944 and the history is very clear about that!!!
There a good amount of books to read about that.And neutrals and objetives;No commies, or Imperialist Gringos, or Nazis,etc.

The Soviet propositions were rejected the the 12-10-39 ,Mannerheim had try to arrive a compromiss informing the Goverment that the Finnish Army can resist maybe two weeks maximum in a eventuell war , but he was only suported by Paasikivi.
The 03-11-39 the Finnish delegation was informed about the intentions of Stalin to purchase the base of Hanko, but that was also rejected by the Finnish.
The 13-11-39 the delegation of the Finnish Goverment and the Soviets had another encounter in Moscow , but the Finnish delegation had before received orders of cut all new speeches.
The 15th November and after all tentatives to arrive a pacific solution were discarted, the Soviet Army received the order to prepare to war.
The 26-11-39 a Mainila several Soviet soldiers were killed under artillery fire.The Soviet accusing of that the Finnish, but this ones replies the artillery fire was not done by his troops; and that´s true, the fire had come from the Soviet side of the border.The 27-11-39 Finland proposse the bilateral retiring of the troops; the 28-11-39 the Soviet Union dennonced the Pact of no Agression, the 29-11-39 broke the diplomatic relations with Finland no accepting the Finnish proposition of bilateral retiring of troops and the 30th November 1939 start the Invasion of Finland.
The tentatives of the Allieds(France and England) to entry in war together with Finnland were postponed ,Sweden had not accepted the transit of this troops in his territory and by the 17-02-40 the situation start to change drastically for the Finnish Army after lossing the line Mannerheim.The 23-02-40 were maked the first contact for a possible armistice via the Swedish Goverment; conditions by the Soviets are like the same :The rent of Hanko for 30 years, the Itsme of Carelia and the zone of the Ladoga lake ,exaclty the border of Peter The Great in 1721.
The 26th February the Sweden inform the allied if his territory was violated by the British and French troops , he must entry in war againts Finland,France England and involuntary allied with the Soviets.
The 5th March France and England sugest Finnland to make a "official Invitation" to intervene in the war againt the Soviet, and maybe also againt the Sweden.This propossion was postponed the same day to the 12th march.
But was too late .The 6th March the Finnish delegation under the lead of the 1th minister Ryti fly to Moscow to prepare the signature of the armistice.The Soviet propossition were again not accepted initially, but by the 9th March the militar situation was too catastrofic for the Finnish Army and the signature to save something was necessary.
The 11th March France and England make public his declaration with the offer of intervention.But the same day Sweden and also Norway declaring his opossition and the negative to allow the transit of troops in his territories.

And the same day the Finnish delegation signed the armistice and the war ended the 13 March 1940.
The war was very costly for the Soviets ,48.745 deaths and 158.000 wounded ,many by congellation.He had also show the serious carences and deficiences of the Red Army ,specially in officers, heavy handicaped after the purgues of 1937.
Finnish losses were 25.000 deaths and 45.000 wounded.

After the war Finland had loss a 10% of his territory ,his second most important city ,Viipuri and a important industrial center at Vuoski.The historical border of Peter the Great were stablished for the Soviets ,Hanko was now in rent for 30 years and the half of the Peninsule of Rybacij was now in Soviet hands. Petsamo was returned to Finland.

Quite different with the Reader Digest Version ,ehhh;) ?But I assure you, that´s exaclty true ,and nothing of propaganda here... No, i would call it BS, big heap of it. Have to go to work, il be back..

[Deputy]

When you defend your own country its a good enough reason to die for it.
BTW...the purpose of war is to make the OTHER guy "die for his country". Dep
Yep, but when a ppl are fighting against an enemy on their own land its a whole different war to them, their determination to win would probably be trebled compared to the opposite side. Your fighting for your country. I wonder our many americans in iraq are actually fighting because they want to or doing it because they have too. I wonder if they really give a toss if they win - as long as they survive the tour and get home thats probably all that matters to them. As its not their country its someone elses.

I find it interesting that so many of these outspoken individuals that have made literally HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of posts on this forum, haven't taken the time to post ANYTHING about themselves. One of the first things I did when I signed up here was to give some background information about myself. All I see from others are a few tidbits about where they live. How about posting your AGE and OCCUPATION in there. So that I can tell if I'm talking with a bunch of high school kids or mature adults?

Dep
Age 42
Occupation - self employed.
Best thing to ever happen to me: Divorce.
Worse thing to ever happen to me: Slipping with a screwdriver resulting in a hole through a brand new motherboard while trying to attach a cpu.:nope:
Hobbies - pig hunting, gaming, addicted horror/war/comedy movie watcher. Ex builder in PC's (see the above). long walks.
Oh and forum surfer - especially subsim:arrgh!:

I don't think someone who ISN'T an American can speak for them. I sure wouldn't presume to speak for anyone from New Zealand. Don't forget the Americans fighting in Iraq are ALL volunteers. What you say might have been true back when the draft was in effect. But I don't think it holds much water in an all-volunteer military. You also don't seem to be watching too many news reports from those reporters embedded with troops actually fighting overseas. The vast majority of them have VERY high morale and want very much to see a democratic form of government succeed in Iraq as well as Afghanistan. They are willing to fight for it so I think they are pretty much convinced they are doing what's right.

Dep

[kiwi_2005]

Im not speak for americans they can speak for themselves. Thats just how i see it.

[Deputy]

"We did lose the war in Vietnam Deputy! I hate to burst your bubble mate, but the baby killings over there didn't go over to well here, remember?"

Babys get killed in EVERY war. That had NOTHING to do with our withdrawl from Viet Nam. That was part of the Left Wingers in the US and their strategy for aiding the enemy. The same nitiwits are resurfacing as anti-Iraq protesters in the US. One wonders where they hide when there is no war. Maybe hugging trees? :lol:



"The war was unwinnable and nothing was accomplished there accpet further putting our government into debt with costly carpet bombings that did nothing but make a lot of trees turn into toothpicks."

We did not "carpet bomb" in Viet Nam. We has specific targets, even for the B52 attacks. I think the enemy troops that were interdicted and/or destroyed by those B52 attackes were definitely worth the effort. It certainly got North Vietnams attention and drove them to peace talks.



"This obviously made finding the enemy even more difficult for us since they were all about the size of toothpicks to begin with."

I would NOT show disdain for the North Vietnamese soldier as far as his height or fighting abilities. You don't have to be a giant to effectively weild an AK-47 and they certainly weren't lacking in courage or dedication. They also had a LOT more time to prepare their defenses compared to the amount of time we had trying to locate them.

"Therefore it was like trying to find a division of toothpicks in a huge pile of toothpicks to shoot at."

We had VERY effective electronic "people detectors" that could locate them and their movements. We knew where they were. We just had our hands tied as far as atacking where they were.

"Weed and war don't mix well either and neither did all that other crap you guys did back then. It's kinda hard to shoot Mickey Mouse when your high as a kite on PCP!"

THAT sir...is pure BS. I know of NOBODY in my unit that took drugs. And PCP didn't even exist as a form of drug that could be taken over there at that time.
If you are a front line soldier you CAN'T be stoned or high. You have to ba alert and aware all the time. You obviously have been getting a slanted description of the war. Put down the Kool Aid and read some non-leftist propaganda about the war.
I recommend the books about LRRPs that fought over there or books by Shelby Stanton. Forget about movies like Apocalypse Now and Platoon. Those were anti-war movies made by Hollywood types with an agenda. Watch "Hamburger Hill" if you want to see what it REALLY was like.

Dep

[kiwi_2005]

Didn't know you served in Vietnam if i read your last post correct, my uncle also served in nam under the new zealand division. Anyway have you read the book Nam by Mark Baker who interviewed hundreds of Nam Veterans in the 80's and put out a book. Everyone of em spoke about been stoned out of their heads. Frontline marines, grunts, chickenhawk pilots. They even use to have setup whore houses at some camps. one story from one grunt platoon is one night they all got stoned got bored so went round and shot up the local village killed the village leader an old man in his 70's and his whole family. They put it down to vietcong supporters. Yet that village was just a village that tried to keep out of the fighting.

[Dowly]

@Danelov: I´ve never seen accurate and confirmed figures of Soviet losses against Finns. All I find is that figure and the phrase "Estimates of Soviet losses vary greatly". From that 48,000 up to half a million.

From Axishistory.com;

Killed in action Died in hospital

Commanders 6.000 802

NCOs 9.611 1.436

Men 54.215 12.185

Rank not known 1.388 1.869

Total 71.214 16.292


And those figures are from the Winter War. Tho, I cant say are those figures true or false.

[SubSerpent]

"We did lose the war in Vietnam Deputy! I hate to burst your bubble mate, but the baby killings over there didn't go over to well here, remember?"

Babys get killed in EVERY war. That had NOTHING to do with our withdrawl from Viet Nam. That was part of the Left Wingers in the US and their strategy for aiding the enemy. The same nitiwits are resurfacing as anti-Iraq protesters in the US. One wonders where they hide when there is no war. Maybe hugging trees? :lol:



"The war was unwinnable and nothing was accomplished there accpet further putting our government into debt with costly carpet bombings that did nothing but make a lot of trees turn into toothpicks."

We did not "carpet bomb" in Viet Nam. We has specific targets, even for the B52 attacks. I think the enemy troops that were interdicted and/or destroyed by those B52 attackes were definitely worth the effort. It certainly got North Vietnams attention and drove them to peace talks.



"This obviously made finding the enemy even more difficult for us since they were all about the size of toothpicks to begin with."

I would NOT show disdain for the North Vietnamese soldier as far as his height or fighting abilities. You don't have to be a giant to effectively weild an AK-47 and they certainly weren't lacking in courage or dedication. They also had a LOT more time to prepare their defenses compared to the amount of time we had trying to locate them.

"Therefore it was like trying to find a division of toothpicks in a huge pile of toothpicks to shoot at."

We had VERY effective electronic "people detectors" that could locate them and their movements. We knew where they were. We just had our hands tied as far as atacking where they were.

"Weed and war don't mix well either and neither did all that other crap you guys did back then. It's kinda hard to shoot Mickey Mouse when your high as a kite on PCP!"

THAT sir...is pure BS. I know of NOBODY in my unit that took drugs. And PCP didn't even exist as a form of drug that could be taken over there at that time.
If you are a front line soldier you CAN'T be stoned or high. You have to ba alert and aware all the time. You obviously have been getting a slanted description of the war. Put down the Kool Aid and read some non-leftist propaganda about the war.
I recommend the books about LRRPs that fought over there or books by Shelby Stanton. Forget about movies like Apocalypse Now and Platoon. Those were anti-war movies made by Hollywood types with an agenda. Watch "Hamburger Hill" if you want to see what it REALLY was like.

Dep


I have seen all those movies and I had heard the stories that my father (who served over there BTW 67-72) tell. Ok, so maybe I "joshed" you a bit the PCP and being high as a kite, but you have to admit there was someone, if not a few, in just about every division or platoon that were considered to be a major pothead.

My dad was ashamed about the war. He said bad things happened there and a lot of times things got chaotic. He said dilberate murder happened and innocents were slaughtered as soldiers tossed hooches and villages. He thinks that most of it was from US soldiers that began to lose their morale after so many years of fighting a BS war in the first place. He actually thinks the "platoon" movie was the most accurate and authentic of what it was like there. He also said the movie "Casualties of War" was very accurate as well. He thought Hamburger Hill was a good movie but it didn't tell the whole story, it only told the fighting aspect of it.

In the end though, my dad admits we lost the war. He hates to have to state that, but he admits the truth. The reason why we lost the war was because our main objective was never accomplished - We didn't defeat the communism over there and keep North Vietnam from taking over South Vietnam. We just up and left - and in a hurry too. Quitting the battlefield is a form of failure. You can't base the war as a success on the fact that we killed more of them than they killed of us, that is not an accurate means of weighing the winner and loser of a war. Perhaps if we had found and killed Ho Chi Min we might have been declared a winner, but that didn't happen.


BTW, PCP was around back then! Check out this...http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/pcp2.htm

[bradclark1]

The same nitiwits are resurfacing as anti-Iraq protesters in the US. One wonders where they hide when there is no war. Maybe hugging trees?
Tell me again why we went to Iraq? Was it the first reason, second reason, or the third reason? Forgive me but the story kept on changing.

[SubSerpent]

The same nitiwits are resurfacing as anti-Iraq protesters in the US. One wonders where they hide when there is no war. Maybe hugging trees?
Tell me again why we went to Iraq? Was it the first reason, second reason, or the third reason? Forgive me but the story kept on changing.


It was because Iraq had WMD, no wait a minute, it was because Iraq had connections to Osama Bin Forgotten, no wait a minute, it was because Sadaam had a hit put on Bush Sr., no wait a minute, it was because Sadaam had been killing his own people for over a decade and finally stopped, so it was finally time for the US to stop being his friend and go in and kill his people for him, no wait a minute, it was because Sadaam was killing rabbits, no wait a minute, it was because Sadaam and Bin Laden are the same people, no wait a minute, it was because Sadaam was trying to control the oil in the middle east, no wait a minute.... on and on and on!!!

The Real Reason for going to war with Iraq....Bush wants to control the OIL in the middle east!

[bradclark1]

[In the end though, my dad admits we lost the war. He hates to have to state that, but he admits the truth. The reason why we lost the war was because our main objective was never accomplished - We didn't defeat the communism over there and keep North Vietnam from taking over South Vietnam. We just up and left - and in a hurry too. Quitting the battlefield is a form of failure. You can't base the war as a success on the fact that we killed more of them than they killed of us, that is not an accurate means of weighing the winner and loser of a war. Perhaps if we had found and killed Ho Chi Min we might have been declared a winner, but that didn't happen.


LBJ lost the war. The military had one foot and one hand tied behind their backs and had no target they could shoot for. It was a matter of just survival. LBJ nearly single-handedly destroyed the U.S. military by his meddling.
It is worth reading a short military history of the Vietnam war.

Drug use was horrendous, racism was severe, and by that I mean blacks to whites. Pobably at least 20% or more of who you knew were given the choice of jail, army or marines. I hated the army back then but I had no place else to go.

[Deputy]

kiwi2005: I was there in 68-69 during Tet as infantry in the Mekong Delta (9th Infantry Division). I have read the book you referred to. I suppose I should qualify that during MY TIME in Nam in MY UNIT, drugs were almost non-existent. I was in a combat unit that was VERY active as far as going out in the field. The only guys who had drug problems in our unit were the medics (morphine). After patching together so many broken bodies of their friends, many times morphine was the only way to keep their sanity. The only whorehouses I knew about (never got to them as I was wounded and evaced before my R&R) were in Saigon or at the R&R centers in and out of country. Nobody was crazy enough to stick their doodad into local whores, as the diseases they had were very penicillin-resistant. We didn't want to catch anything that delayed our return home ;)

Please don't base your opinion of VietNam troops on ONE book written by someone who is a journalist. I have read some reviews about his book from other vets and journalists who question the content of the book.
Example (from Amazon.com):
Reviewer: Keith Nolan "author of RIPCORD, etc" (St Louis, MO) -
Like author Mark Baker, I'm not a veteran. I have, however, spent the last twenty-five years interviewing Vietnam veterans about their experiences in the war, and have published a number of non-fiction books on the subject. Not surprisingly, the veterans I've had the opportunity to speak with have described the war to me from a multitude of perspectives. There were those who believed in the war and those who didn't, those who served in units with good leadership and good morale and those who didn't, those who saw atrocities and those who didn't, those who used drugs and those who didn't, etc., etc., etc.
With that in mind, I'd be curious as to how Mark Baker managed to find such a one-sided collection of veterans. Everyone in NAM seems to have soldiered in a demoralized unit with incompetent or crazed leaders in which drug abuse and atrocities were standard operating procedure.
Hmmmmm, very suspicious. It seems that Baker must have thrown out every interview he did with veterans who served proudly in good units, or who saw both the good and bad sides of human nature in the war. How else to explain the unrelentingly negative parade of stories in NAM? Baker somehow managed to find more stories of sadism and murder in the handful of interviews he did than in the thousands I've done.
Many of the stories don't even ring true. Either Baker spoke with veterans with a proclivity for exaggeration, or some of the guys he interviewed weren't even veterans to begin with.
In sum, NAM is one of the most dishonest books ever published about the American combat soldier in Vietnam.
-------------------------------------
See what I mean? :)


SubSerpent: There are bad apples in EVERY Army throughout history. I can only speak about my unit that I served in. I also think that from 1965-1968 the amount of illegal drug use was not as horrific as the anti-war authors and movie makers would have one believe. Your Dad has a right to his own feelings, as he was there and earned that right. No way will I dispute what he feels or thinks.
As to PCP...it was around, but as an animal tranquilizer and not as a popular drug. The effects were certainly NOT what one would want when stationed in a combat unit in the middle of a war. Might as well put a 1911A1 pistol to your head and pull the trigger. :nope:
Morale in my unit was quite high, and that was in '68-'69. Racism was NON-EXISTENT, or at the most, minimal, in my unit. That war did more to UNIFY blacks and whites then divide them. We were all truly BROTHERS IN ARMS during that time.

On a submarine-related note...I just got a DVD from the History Channel called "Suicide Missions...all about the U-Boat war in WW2. One interesting statement was that U-Boats mainly fought on the surface and submerged to escape detection from Destroyers and surface warships. That contradicts what others have posted about U-Boats mainly doing their hunting underwater.

Dep

[SubSerpent]

[In the end though, my dad admits we lost the war. He hates to have to state that, but he admits the truth. The reason why we lost the war was because our main objective was never accomplished - We didn't defeat the communism over there and keep North Vietnam from taking over South Vietnam. We just up and left - and in a hurry too. Quitting the battlefield is a form of failure. You can't base the war as a success on the fact that we killed more of them than they killed of us, that is not an accurate means of weighing the winner and loser of a war. Perhaps if we had found and killed Ho Chi Min we might have been declared a winner, but that didn't happen.


LBJ lost the war. The military had one foot and one hand tied behind their backs and had no target they could shoot for. It was a matter of just survival. LBJ nearly single-handedly destroyed the U.S. military by his meddling.
It is worth reading a short military history of the Vietnam war.

Drug use was horrendous, racism was severe, and by that I mean blacks to whites. Pobably at least 20% or more of who you knew were given the choice of jail, army or marines. I hated the army back then but I had no place else to go.

My dad admits that LBJ was the worst president ever, but then again he wasn't elected to the presidency, he only got it because JFK was killed. LBJ just stayed the course that he thought JFK would have gone. Who knows? LBJ was also president during one of the hardest periods of US history though. Their was the whole black and white issues, the women vs men issues, and the space program that the US was desperate to complete. On top of all of that there was the very unpopular war going on in Vietnam. LBJ didn't get us in it, JFK did! LBJ was stuck between a rock and a hard place to begin with that most presidents don't get put into. This led him to do what he thinks JFK would have done, so he sent more and more American troops over there in an attempt to end the war quickly. The war didn't end quickly like he hoped and this made him look very bad and a lot more war protest began.

Anyway, I don't need to explain the whole history of it all since it's there for anyone to read about, but I will say this, Iraq is VERY much another Vietnam.

How many years now have we been there? Has anything really changed? Is Iraq a peaceful nation AFTER the capture of Sadaam? What defines a peaceful nation?

Has the world changed so much that US law is now the official world governor? Wouldn't that be considered obsolutism? Is the "United" States really united on this issue since it seems like you say black and I say white on everything when it comes to this issue?

Who is right and who is wrong? Perhaps we are all wrong? What do we do if that's the case? Should we not let sleeping dogs lie in that situation? Is war really the answer to solving problems? Hasn't the past shown us that war is never the best option? What is the best option? Wouldn't peace promoting be better voiced out from the mouth than from the barrel of a gun?

[joea]

Wouldn't peace promoting be better voiced out from the mouth than from the barrel of a gun?

Very beautiful sentiment, problem is too many want the power coming out of that gun barrel. I am not pointing fingers as this is common to many, from the days it was a spear until today.

[XabbaRus]

Can anyone explain to me the point of this f=thread and where it is going. It seems one of the most pointless I have seen and personally think it is taking up valuable space.

Gizzmoe where are you when we need you.

[SubSerpent]

Can anyone explain to me the point of this f=thread and where it is going. It seems one of the most pointless I have seen and personally think it is taking up valuable space.

Gizzmoe where are you when we need you.

I don't know where it is going either! It does state the "split" arguement of the previous thread started on the topic of the Nazi symbol, so I guess that means that we are no longer talking about the Nazi symbol and just doing "general topic" talk. It is in the general topic section and appears to be popular from all the views and posts it's getting. Perhaps it should stand just to see if anything worth while comes from it? :hmm:

Maybe world peace will evolve from it?

[Sir Big Jugs]

Can anyone explain to me the point of this f=thread and where it is going. It seems one of the most pointless I have seen and personally think it is taking up valuable space.

Gizzmoe where are you when we need you.

Disagree! Is it your idea of these forums that people are not allowed to discuss things they feel are important? This isn't a police state you know, everyone's got a right to say what they think!

If you are so fond of Subsim.coms webspace space, go look in the "I know curiosity killed the........." threads!

[SubSerpent]

Can anyone explain to me the point of this f=thread and where it is going. It seems one of the most pointless I have seen and personally think it is taking up valuable space.

Gizzmoe where are you when we need you.

Disagree! Is it your idea of these forums that people are not allowed to discuss things they feel are important? This isn't a police state you know, everyone's got a right to say what they think!

If you are so fond of Subsim.coms webspace space, go look in the "I know curiosity killed the........." threads!

Good point! I like you Brewster Pilot! You are obviously a man who can bring reason to chaos! Thanks! Argue on people! :rock:

[ASWnut101]

Jesus.......


Moderators please stop this nonsence!

[Sir Big Jugs]

Moderators please stop this nonsence!

Nonsense?

Do you call having your word heard on a GENERAL discussion forum nonsense?

Do you call freedom of speech in your own constitutional law nonsense?

Yes man, Jesus!

[SubSerpent]

Jesus.......


Moderators please stop this nonsence!

Maybe you need to go if you don't like what you hear? Is it too hard for you to turn off your PC and go find something else to do? Does everything need to be "ASWnut101's" way only or no way at all?

I'd call you a communist mindset as it appears you wish to control freedom of speech and expression! Do us all a favor and do an about face and go some place else to pollute your segment of the world!

[joea]

This is a private forum, no free speech, plus people living and posting from everywhere. Anyway, it's up to Neal and the mods as to what to allow or not. I am enjoying this.:p

[StdDev]

Speaking of nonsense.....
did someone call my name!!!...

warning.. this might offend some....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8)

[Sir Big Jugs]

From the Subsim.com Forum rules:
By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that contain software piracy, warez, or illegal downloads, are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

I see no reason whatsoever in closing this thread, as it doesn't violate the forum rules!

[ASWnut101]

hateful may fit right in.....

[SubSerpent]

Speaking of nonsense.....
did someone call my name!!!...

warning.. this might offend some....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8)


BRILLIANT...I LOVED IT!!! :up: :rock:

[Sir Big Jugs]

Speaking of nonsense.....
did someone call my name!!!...

warning.. this might offend some....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmsOIjzQ1V8)

Hilarious! Great find!:rock::rock::rock:

(Watch out for Gizzmoe, he is approaching...;))

[SubSerpent]

hateful may fit right in.....


Who's being hateful? I don't hate anyone here, I'm just explaining my feelings about how I feel in a "General Topics" thread! I don't think anyone "hates" anyone here? I might be wrong on this though. All hateful people please raise your hands......:shifty:.....no one!

[ASWnut101]

sure dont seem that way..

[Takeda Shingen]

Why don't you go do some cycling instead of posting your same crap all the time?

I could say the same to you. It sounds as though you could use the exercise. Besides, my post count is lower than yours, so we read much less of my crap than we do of that which spews from your keyboard.

[SubSerpent]

sure dont seem that way..


I think you are an easily offened person then! Oops, Don't be offened by that :p

[ASWnut101]

sure dont seem that way..


I think you are an easily offened person then! Oops, Don't be offened by that :p


I thought you said you wern't being hateful.......

[Takeda Shingen]

Can anyone explain to me the point of this f=thread and where it is going. It seems one of the most pointless I have seen and personally think it is taking up valuable space.

Gizzmoe where are you when we need you.

I am with you on the directionless nature of this. It is truly one of the most schizophrenic discussions I have every witnessed on this forum. Some of this may be due to the fact that it is an amalgamated posting, but the free-form nature of the topics themselves are truly arcane. However, I don't think that moderator action is in need here; at least yet, even if bradclark1 thinks that I spew crap, which I most certainly do. Of course, so does everyone else here, and one the web. It is the way of the internet, and when in Rome, one must be a Roman.

[SubSerpent]

sure dont seem that way..


I think you are an easily offened person then! Oops, Don't be offened by that :p


I thought you said you wern't being hateful.......

I'm not being hateful! :huh:

[XabbaRus]

OK guys I can't mod this forum but I have asked Gizzmoe and Neal to have a look, so either things cool themselves off and the topic is allowed to sink or they might choose to close it as I have requested.

[SubSerpent]

OK guys I can't mod this forum but I have asked Gizzmoe and Neal to have a look, so either things cool themselves off and the topic is allowed to sink or they might choose to close it as I have requested.

Snitch! :p

[Deputy]

Sorry I took so long to reply. Hateful?!?!?!?!? I thought we were being quite cordial and having a great discussion in the process. We don't all need to AGREE on things in order to be able to discuss them reasonably. My eyes have been openned by more than a few comments made in this thread. Not saying I am going to vote for a Left Wing Socialist government in the next elections (hehe), but I am learning the different views of people from different parts of the world. Again...not saying I agree with them, but at least I am finding out what other folks feel about war and the US and Iraq, etc. The video was GREAT!!!! Sending it to my ultra-Conservtive wife. She will LOVE it!!! :rotfl:

And to rock the (U-) boat just a tad....I see nothing wrong with fighting for oil. It sure makes more sense than fighting for world domination based on a religious belief. And you know who I'm talking about. I think if Bush had just said "We are invaded Iraq to insure that we have an uninterrupted oil supply" instead of all that hocum about WMDs and spreading Democracy (even though the US ISN'T one), the war would still be popular today. ;)

Personally, I would have liked to see them make Iraq the 51st state. Since we are sending/spending so much cash on that place, I'd like to see us get some back. Suck the dang oil wells dry and pay for that expensive incursion. Okay...so I'm an Imperialist. Call me what you want, but I'd rather be an Imperialist with a full tank of gas, than have to walk 10 miles to the nearest grocery store. :smug:

And for those that want to ban this thread...nobody's forcing you to read it. Those that are posting here seem to be quite content with the way things are going. Nobody has sent any personal insults to anyone. Actually, I think we are all learning from what is posted here. It would be a shame to muzzle us when we are finally close to world peace.

Dep...wishes he could afford to buy an SUV (although they are dropping in price).

[Sir Big Jugs]

Xabba saves the day with his 7300 posts...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

[SubSerpent]

Let's take a vote on this thread of who wants to keep and who wants it locked!

Yay = keep it

Nay = Lock it and send it to the deep

[SubSerpent]

I vote YAY

[Deputy]

I vote YAY! And the motto where I came from (Chicago) was "vote early and vote OFTEN". LOL

Dep

[bradclark1]

Why don't you go do some cycling instead of posting your same crap all the time?

I could say the same to you. It sounds as though you could use the exercise. Besides, my post count is lower than yours, so we read much less of my crap than we do of that which spews from your keyboard.

Cycling isn't in my interests. When I say something I am making a statement where you state the same thing over and over again in how many threads now? Where you obviously think you are a funny person when as a matter of fact you aren't.

[SubSerpent]

Why don't you go do some cycling instead of posting your same crap all the time?

I could say the same to you. It sounds as though you could use the exercise. Besides, my post count is lower than yours, so we read much less of my crap than we do of that which spews from your keyboard.

Cycling isn't in my interests. When I say something I am making a statement where you state the same thing over and over again in how many threads now? Where you obviously think you are a funny person when as a matter of fact you aren't.

Brad, I call these types of people "thread stalkers". They are out to try and make us look bad. :rotfl:

[kiwi_2005]

kiwi2005: I was there in 68-69 during Tet as infantry in the Mekong Delta (9th Infantry Division). I have read the book you referred to. I suppose I should qualify that during MY TIME in Nam in MY UNIT, drugs were almost non-existent. I was in a combat unit that was VERY active as far as going out in the field. The only guys who had drug problems in our unit were the medics (morphine). After patching together so many broken bodies of their friends, many times morphine was the only way to keep their sanity. The only whorehouses I knew about (never got to them as I was wounded and evaced before my R&R) were in Saigon or at the R&R centers in and out of country. Nobody was crazy enough to stick their doodad into local whores, as the diseases they had were very penicillin-resistant. We didn't want to catch anything that delayed our return home ;)

Please don't base your opinion of VietNam troops on ONE book written by someone who is a journalist. I have read some reviews about his book from other vets and journalists who question the content of the book.
Example (from Amazon.com):
Reviewer: Keith Nolan "author of RIPCORD, etc" (St Louis, MO) -
Like author Mark Baker, I'm not a veteran. I have, however, spent the last twenty-five years interviewing Vietnam veterans about their experiences in the war, and have published a number of non-fiction books on the subject. Not surprisingly, the veterans I've had the opportunity to speak with have described the war to me from a multitude of perspectives. There were those who believed in the war and those who didn't, those who served in units with good leadership and good morale and those who didn't, those who saw atrocities and those who didn't, those who used drugs and those who didn't, etc., etc., etc.
With that in mind, I'd be curious as to how Mark Baker managed to find such a one-sided collection of veterans. Everyone in NAM seems to have soldiered in a demoralized unit with incompetent or crazed leaders in which drug abuse and atrocities were standard operating procedure.
Hmmmmm, very suspicious. It seems that Baker must have thrown out every interview he did with veterans who served proudly in good units, or who saw both the good and bad sides of human nature in the war. How else to explain the unrelentingly negative parade of stories in NAM? Baker somehow managed to find more stories of sadism and murder in the handful of interviews he did than in the thousands I've done.
Many of the stories don't even ring true. Either Baker spoke with veterans with a proclivity for exaggeration, or some of the guys he interviewed weren't even veterans to begin with.
In sum, NAM is one of the most dishonest books ever published about the American combat soldier in Vietnam.
-------------------------------------
See what I mean? :)

Dep

:yep: :up:I didn't know that! okay u got my attention. Another good Nam book i read was Chickenhawk by Robert Mason - please dont say it was all BullSh*t as well.:)

[Deputy]

kiwi: I'm not familiar with that book, so no comment :)

Dep

[Danelov]

@Danelov: I´ve never seen accurate and confirmed figures of Soviet losses against Finns. All I find is that figure and the phrase "Estimates of Soviet losses vary greatly". From that 48,000 up to half a million.

From Axishistory.com;

Killed in action Died in hospital

Commanders 6.000 802

NCOs 9.611 1.436

Men 54.215 12.185

Rank not known 1.388 1.869

Total 71.214 16.292


And those figures are from the Winter War. Tho, I cant say are those figures true or false.

Yes, there are many different numbers about the losses.Mannerheim had also speak about 200.000, but that was very shortly after the war.

[ASWnut101]

[edit]: oopies, wrong topic!

[Gizzmoe]

FYI, I´m not going to close the thread yet. The discussions in this thread were civil enough, they didn´t turn into prolonged one-on-one fights, and the same arguments weren´t repeated over and over and over again. That´s better than in many discussions about politics or religion we had so far.

If you disagree feel free to send me a PM, but don´t start a discussion about that in this thread!

[Deputy]

Gizzmoe: Thank you sir!!!! We appreciate your understanding :up:

On a completely unrelated topic...I just received a 3-DVD collection of videos called "The Grey Wolves" (no relation to the mod BTW). It covers the U-Boat war from 1939-1945. Anyone have this collection? I got it from Amazon.com but the makers have their own website:

http://www.artsmagicdvd.com/specialinterest/catalogue/index.html#greywolvesuboats1939to1941

Dep

[Deputy]

And getting back to the reason this thread exists...

"How many years now have we been there? Has anything really changed? Is Iraq a peaceful nation AFTER the capture of Sadaam? What defines a peaceful nation?"

I love these comments! If you check US history it took a VERY long time for "peace" to be achieved here during and after the Revolutionary War. Writing the Constitution took a LOT longer than Iraq has done. We even had ANOTHER war where we fought among ourselves to straighten things out. I think we have become a "fast food/instant gratification" society where we want a war won and peace and prosperity to be started IMMEDIATELY. That just isn't the way it works with human beings. Throw in the fact that neighboring governments are doing their best to PREVENT Iraq from being peaceful and stable and nobody should be surprised that peace hasn't been achieved in Iraq yet. The best proposal I have heard is the division of Iraq into 3 states with Kurds, Suunis and Shiite ruling each state. Works for us with 50 states...should work for them. :)

Dep

[SubSerpent]

And getting back to the reason this thread exists...

"How many years now have we been there? Has anything really changed? Is Iraq a peaceful nation AFTER the capture of Sadaam? What defines a peaceful nation?"

I love these comments! If you check US history it took a VERY long time for "peace" to be achieved here during and after the Revolutionary War. Writing the Constitution took a LOT longer than Iraq has done. We even had ANOTHER war where we fought among ourselves to straighten things out. I think we have become a "fast food/instant gratification" society where we want a war won and peace and prosperity to be started IMMEDIATELY. That just isn't the way it works with human beings. Throw in the fact that neighboring governments are doing their best to PREVENT Iraq from being peaceful and stable and nobody should be surprised that peace hasn't been achieved in Iraq yet. The best proposal I have heard is the division of Iraq into 3 states with Kurds, Suunis and Shiite ruling each state. Works for us with 50 states...should work for them. :)

Dep

That last sentence has no logic behind it whatsoever. Iraqi people are totally different that you or I and there is no proof behind it.

It is a war crime to attack another nation and to establish your own form of government there without proper provocation from the originating nation. Iraq possed no threat the the US and didn't send Al Qaeda to bomb the trade towers. This war was started by a madman in the Whitehouse with a personal grudge against Sadaam and the Iraqi people from his father's previous reign as the president. This war has no civil ground to walk on and no fact to base merritt with either.

Who the hell gave Bush the right to go into another country and establish a form of government there that they never wanted in the first place? The Iraqis have stated and stated again and again that they don't want our help or our greedy western government in their country. This is the wish of those people. Why hasn't our government left yet? I'll tell you why...Because the government can't accept the fact that the Iraqis don't appreciate Bush and his military coming into their country, blowing up their schools & hospitals, shooting & bombing their innocent people, and removing their culture from existence, only to be replaced by a stupid naive one like what the US currently has.

Bush refuses to leave until he has brainwashed them all into acceptence and those that don't follow Herr Bush's way are to be considered a terrorist and to be shot. It's as simple as that! It's obviously martial law in Iraq and will be until they accpet their new enforced way of life. Bush is no better than Hitler and no better than Milosovich!

[August]

And getting back to the reason this thread exists...

"How many years now have we been there? Has anything really changed? Is Iraq a peaceful nation AFTER the capture of Sadaam? What defines a peaceful nation?"

I love these comments! If you check US history it took a VERY long time for "peace" to be achieved here during and after the Revolutionary War. Writing the Constitution took a LOT longer than Iraq has done. We even had ANOTHER war where we fought among ourselves to straighten things out. I think we have become a "fast food/instant gratification" society where we want a war won and peace and prosperity to be started IMMEDIATELY. That just isn't the way it works with human beings. Throw in the fact that neighboring governments are doing their best to PREVENT Iraq from being peaceful and stable and nobody should be surprised that peace hasn't been achieved in Iraq yet. The best proposal I have heard is the division of Iraq into 3 states with Kurds, Suunis and Shiite ruling each state. Works for us with 50 states...should work for them. :)

Dep
That last sentence has no logic behind it whatsoever. Iraqi people are totally different that you or I and there is no proof behind it.

It is a war crime to attack another nation and to establish your own form of government there without proper provocation from the originating nation. Iraq possed no threat the the US and didn't send Al Qaeda to bomb the trade towers. This war was started by a madman in the Whitehouse with a personal grudge against Sadaam and the Iraqi people from his father's previous reign as the president. This war has no civil ground to walk on and no fact to base merritt with either.

Who the hell gave Bush the right to go into another country and establish a form of government there that they never wanted in the first place? The Iraqis have stated and stated again and again that they don't want our help or our greedy western government in their country. This is the wish of those people. Why hasn't our government left yet? I'll tell you why...Because the government can't accept the fact that the Iraqis don't appreciate Bush and his military coming into their country, blowing up their schools & hospitals, shooting & bombing their innocent people, and removing their culture from existence, only to be replaced by a stupid naive one like what the US currently has.

Bush refuses to leave until he has brainwashed them all into acceptence and those that don't follow Herr Bush's way are to be considered a terrorist and to be shot. It's as simple as that! It's obviously martial law in Iraq and will be until they accpet their new enforced way of life. Bush is no better than Hitler and no better than Milosovich!


:rotfl: You really have no concept of reality Subman. As someone already mentioned, you're like a spokesman for the GoP as to why people shouldn't elect Democrats.

[VipertheSniper]

Bush refuses to leave until he has brainwashed them all into acceptence and those that don't follow Herr Bush's way are to be considered a terrorist and to be shot. It's as simple as that! It's obviously martial law in Iraq and will be until they accpet their new enforced way of life. Bush is no better than Hitler and no better than Milosovich!


:rotfl: You really have no concept of reality Subman. As someone already mentioned, you're like a spokesman for the GoP as to why people shouldn't elect Democrats.

Ok that last paragraph of Subserpent is really something I don't agree with, although I'm by no means a Bush supporter. But quoting the whole thing together and discarding EVERYTHING he said with :"you've got no concept of reality" when the other things were true, like you did August, is something which shows a lack of will to discuss it.

And I've yet to see a survey that says the Iraqis wanted a democracy before Saddam was removed. Did anyone ask them?
I've yet to see some credible evidence that Iraq under Saddam in 2003 posed a threat to the US, and even then, an invasion is out of question by international law, unless the US would've been attacked by Saddam beforehand.
What's more, you can't justify the means with the outcome you dream of, especially when you're the agressor and have achieved nothing but to turn a nation into chaos and civil war.

[SubSerpent]

Bush refuses to leave until he has brainwashed them all into acceptence and those that don't follow Herr Bush's way are to be considered a terrorist and to be shot. It's as simple as that! It's obviously martial law in Iraq and will be until they accpet their new enforced way of life. Bush is no better than Hitler and no better than Milosovich!


:rotfl: You really have no concept of reality Subman. As someone already mentioned, you're like a spokesman for the GoP as to why people shouldn't elect Democrats.

Ok that last paragraph of Subserpent is really something I don't agree with, although I'm by no means a Bush supporter. But quoting the whole thing together and discarding EVERYTHING he said with :"you've got no concept of reality" when the other things were true, like you did August, is something which shows a lack of will to discuss it.

And I've yet to see a survey that says the Iraqis wanted a democracy before Saddam was removed. Did anyone ask them?
I've yet to see some credible evidence that Iraq under Saddam in 2003 posed a threat to the US, and even then, an invasion is out of question by international law, unless the US would've been attacked by Saddam beforehand.
What's more, you can't justify the means with the outcome you dream of, especially when you're the agressor and have achieved nothing but to turn a nation into chaos and civil war.


You've got a point Viper! Why does August not want to address my point with anything more than a cheap shot to the gut with his famous, "You have no concept of reality" line? :hmm:

Perhaps I struck a nerve and he has to admit to himself that I am right and he is wrong. Therefore he has nothing better to say or facts to come up with to prove me wrong. No wonder I feel the way I do, no one has proven me wrong or what I claim to be UNtrue! Show the proof in the future and quit with all the short, "SubSerpent is crazy" comments. It's not crazy from my viewpoint, so therefore, if your are going to call me crazy you need to prove it in the future.

[ASWnut101]

hmmm, and what of your "I've got more posts than you" line? That somehow makes you smarter and better than others?

[Sea Demon]

You've got a point Viper! Why does August not want to address my point with anything more than a cheap shot to the gut with his famous, "You have no concept of reality" line? :hmm:

Perhaps I struck a nerve and he has to admit to himself that I am right and he is wrong. Therefore he has nothing better to say or facts to come up with to prove me wrong. No wonder I feel the way I do, no one has proven me wrong or what I claim to be UNtrue! Show the proof in the future and quit with all the short, "SubSerpent is crazy" comments. It's not crazy from my viewpoint, so therefore, if your are going to call me crazy you need to prove it in the future.

You're the one leveling all the unsubstantiated crazy charges. The burden of proof is on you to prove your insane asssertions. That's like me throwing a charge out there that John Kerry is a child rapist. And it's up to you to prove it's not true. I'm really shocked SubSerpent if you are truly an adult....or even gone passed the 8th grade.

[SubSerpent]

hmmm, and what of your "I've got more posts than you" line? That somehow makes you smarter and better than others?

It means that you are still a nOOb here in comparison. Tis a fact, nothing more! I'm not saying I'm better than anyone else, only you ASWnut101! ;) :know:

[ASWnut101]

you've said that to other people too...........

[SubSerpent]

You've got a point Viper! Why does August not want to address my point with anything more than a cheap shot to the gut with his famous, "You have no concept of reality" line? :hmm:

Perhaps I struck a nerve and he has to admit to himself that I am right and he is wrong. Therefore he has nothing better to say or facts to come up with to prove me wrong. No wonder I feel the way I do, no one has proven me wrong or what I claim to be UNtrue! Show the proof in the future and quit with all the short, "SubSerpent is crazy" comments. It's not crazy from my viewpoint, so therefore, if your are going to call me crazy you need to prove it in the future.

You're the one leveling all the unsubstantiated crazy charges. The burden of proof is on you to prove your insane asssertions. That's like me throwing a charge out there that John Kerry is a child rapist. And it's up to you to prove it's not true. I'm really shocked SubSerpent if you are truly an adult....or even gone passed the 8th grade.

I could say the same thing about you? But I was thinking more on the lines of 1st grade or lower...:hmm:

Too funny! :rotfl:

[Sea Demon]

I could say the same thing about you? But I was thinking more on the lines of 1st grade or lower...:hmm:

Too funny! :rotfl:
Seriously, what grade level have you achieved? :D I'm an employed college graduate.

[August]

Ok that last paragraph of Subserpent is really something I don't agree with, although I'm by no means a Bush supporter. But quoting the whole thing together and discarding EVERYTHING he said with :"you've got no concept of reality" when the other things were true, like you did August, is something which shows a lack of will to discuss it.

Not only myself but many others here have been discussing it with him for several months now without result. His posts are perfectly designed to make people see Democrats and their supporters as complete looneys.

Seriously, don't believe me, go back and look at his past postings, especially the threads he has started. They are full of him tossing insulting names like nazis, neocons, murderers and more.

You're right. I do have a lack of will to discuss it with him. After all, as i said earlier, each and every one of his posts is like a Republican created advertisement on why Democrats shouldn't be trusted to run out country. Since the only Democrat that I would vote for as President has been tossed out of his own party for not pandering enough to this type of hysteria i'm fine with the occasional laugh at his expense.

And I've yet to see a survey that says the Iraqis wanted a democracy before Saddam was removed. Did anyone ask them?

I don't recall in the history of man that any enemy nations citizens have been asked whether they agreed to a removal of the regime in power, but there have been many calls by various Iraqi groups for us to do just that ever since Desert Storm.

What we do there now, having achieved our objective of removing him, is at least try to stablize the situation before leaving. Maybe we'll succeed and maybe we'll fail, time will tell, but we both know that if it were any other nation besides the US, with the possible exception of the British, Iraq would have either been left to its own devices or permanently annexed as a colony.

[Happy Times]

@Danelov: I´ve never seen accurate and confirmed figures of Soviet losses against Finns. All I find is that figure and the phrase "Estimates of Soviet losses vary greatly". From that 48,000 up to half a million.

From Axishistory.com;

Killed in action Died in hospital

Commanders 6.000 802

NCOs 9.611 1.436

Men 54.215 12.185

Rank not known 1.388 1.869

Total 71.214 16.292


And those figures are from the Winter War. Tho, I cant say are those figures true or false.
Yes, there are many different numbers about the losses.Mannerheim had also speak about 200.000, but that was very shortly after the war. And the 48.000 figures you offered arent excepted by anyone but some Stalinists.:roll: I would also like to know what foreign expeditions attacked Russia from Finland during the Russian civil war? However the Bolseviks sponsored and supported a rebellion in Finland against the legal goverment 1918 and after that failed,terrorism. Funny part was that you compared Finland (democracy) to Cuba (communist dictatorship).:dead: You make the claim that the demands that USSR put out for Finland, prior to Winter War, were reasonable.:rotfl: When in reality they would have ment total control over Finlands foreign trade connections and undermined Finlands defence totally. You ever heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact?!? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact Seems not when you claim that the Soviets didnt have intention to invade Finland, muhahhaaa:rotfl:Finland had seen what had happened to Poland and the Baltic countries, we werent going to go that road. The Soviets werent even hiding their intentions after they attacked. They named us a new goverment at Terijoki, it was called the Finnish Democratic Republic! :rotfl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Democratic_Republic And on a personal note im so tired of this mockery of history that you people spew that il shove that border of Peter The "Great" up your ass if you ever step on this soil again. Winter War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War , Continuation War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_Warhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG/750px-Ribbentrop-Molotov.PNG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuation_War)

[Happy Times]

Clip from a good and realistic film you can probably get from Amazon. http://youtube.com/watch?v=M6uU4-htcWg&mode=related&search=

A nother one, features a common way to take out tanks during the war. http://youtube.com/watch?v=TeSCizsAZtQ&mode=related&search=

British news reel from 1939. http://youtube.com/watch?v=iFf2RPY1B9w

[Deputy]

SubSerpent: Welllllll...I didn't realize you were the Arabic expert on what will and won't succeed in Iraq. So besides piss and moan about Dubya and subscribe to the "cut and run" suggestions of the Dems, what IS your solution in Iraq? Note also that Iraq had consistently violated UN resolutions prior to our going in to their country. And we DID have a legal right to go in since the UN stated there would be recriminations for ignoring the resolution. What did you think those recriminations were going to be...a spanking like Bill Klinton did? Some useless cruise missles that explode on pill factories?
We are NOT establishing our own form of government. We are letting the people THEY ELECTED (unlike Saddam) establish their own form of government. If they wanted to have a government identical to the one in Iran, they were free to do so. We simply removed a mass murderer (remember the gassing of the Kurds?) that was endangering the stability of the region. The ones that DON'T want the US in Iraq aren't Iraqis. They are Iranians. And Syrians. If a democratic form of government succeeds in Iraq, that would be a MAJOR thorn in the side of Iran and Syria. As noted by our politicos...Democracies DON'T declare war on each other.
Note also that the US is rebuilding everything that was destroyed during the war. We did NOT intentionally bomb schools and hospitals. It's the same thing as Israel...if the bad guys hide in those locations...they are fair game. NO innocent people were intentionally shot and bombed.
Just curious...are you a resident of the US? Again...no personal info available on you. If you are, let me say that nobody is holding you down as far as staying here. You are free to leave and move to some Socialist country more to your leanings.
Just like George Clooney did...oh wait....he said he would leave and stayed after all :lol:
Oh yeah...funny you should mention Milosovich. If I remember right we went over there to help out in that fracas too and still have peacekeepers there. Dang we are a nasty country. Spreading peace and supporting human rights every where we go. Shame on us!!

Dep

[SubSerpent]

My solution can't be met now. US should have never invaded Iraq to begin with. All we can and should do is release Sadaam back to his country and leave the place never to return. Perhaps we should make an formal apology to Iraq in front of the world. It was never our business to get involved with them in the first place. Then Bush should be tried for war crimes against humanity by the United Nations that he so eagerly bypassed in order to attack Iraq.

[Deputy]

My solution can't be met now. US should have never invaded Iraq to begin with. All we can and should do is release Sadaam back to his country and leave the place never to return. Perhaps we should make an formal apology to Iraq in front of the world. It was never our business to get involved with them in the first place. Then Bush should be tried for war crimes against humanity by the United Nations that he so eagerly bypassed in order to attack Iraq.

HA! HAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OH GEEZ!!!! I AM ROFLMAO!!!!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You realize that this answer pretty much takes you out of any reasonable discussions on this matter?

Dep

[SubSerpent]

That's what should happen. What's your idea? Continue to kill off the Iraqi people and squeeze them into acceptance of democracy?

Yeah, that would be really great! :roll:


Then what? Move on to Iran? and etc etc till all middle east is controlled by the US?

[SubSerpent]

http://myspace-253.vo.llnwd.net/01119/35/23/1119433253_l.jpg

http://myspace-011.vo.llnwd.net/01157/11/03/1157903011_l.jpg

[VipertheSniper]

My solution can't be met now. US should have never invaded Iraq to begin with. All we can and should do is release Sadaam back to his country and leave the place never to return. Perhaps we should make an formal apology to Iraq in front of the world. It was never our business to get involved with them in the first place. Then Bush should be tried for war crimes against humanity by the United Nations that he so eagerly bypassed in order to attack Iraq.

Saddam back to his country? What has happened can't be undone, apart from that, last time I heard he was in Iraq, I mean isn't he tried in Iraq?
Formal apology to Iraq? As if that is going to change anything.
I agree that it was wrong invading Iraq, but the stuff you suggest doesn't make any sense, apart from that it was never your business and trying Bush for war crimes.

[ASWnut101]

seems subserpent is losing some friends......

[SubSerpent]

seems subserpent is losing some friends......

Blah, didn't need any anyways! Unlike you who needs are the support he can get! :p

You don't wear a bra by chance do you?:hmm:

[August]

My solution can't be met now. US should have never invaded Iraq to begin with. All we can and should do is release Sadaam back to his country and leave the place never to return. Perhaps we should make an formal apology to Iraq in front of the world. It was never our business to get involved with them in the first place. Then Bush should be tried for war crimes against humanity by the United Nations that he so eagerly bypassed in order to attack Iraq.
HA! HAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. OH GEEZ!!!! I AM ROFLMAO!!!!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You realize that this answer pretty much takes you out of any reasonable discussions on this matter?

Dep

You realize he never said what his "solution" was? That's because, like the rest of the Democrats, he never had one.

[ASWnut101]

You don't wear a bra by chance do you?:hmm:

man, and you said skywvr was perverted.....freakin some people out.....

[bradclark1]

You realize he never said what his "solution" was? That's because, like the rest of the Democrats, he never had one.
The republicans sure as heck don't have one do they?

[SubSerpent]

You realize he never said what his "solution" was? That's because, like the rest of the Democrats, he never had one.
The republicans sure as heck don't have one do they?

Yeah they do - Iraqi takeover in the fullest. This will take them years to get complete but once enough brainwashing schools and brainwashed Iraqi childern grow up to love the American man will we leave. It's the republicans only chance to make the world think that they accomplished something and they will always cling to their saying of "We never said how long it would take".

Forced American education, forced religion, force grooming standards, forced government, and forced labor all at gunpoint. This is America's version of creating peace in the middle east!

[Sea Demon]

You realize he never said what his "solution" was? That's because, like the rest of the Democrats, he never had one.
The republicans sure as heck don't have one do they?

Yeah they do - Iraqi takeover in the fullest. This will take them years to get complete but once enough brainwashing schools and brainwashed Iraqi childern grow up to love the American man will we leave. It's the republicans only chance to make the world think that they accomplished something and they will always cling to their saying of "We never said how long it would take".

Forced American education, forced religion, force grooming standards, forced government, and forced labor all at gunpoint. This is America's version of creating peace in the middle east!

Thank God you people are out of power. We absolutely cannot afford your cynicism and sense of defeat at this time. You can parade around as a failure all you want. You can continue to spit on those who have made the sacrifices. Meanwhile, the effort will continue without you.

[SubSerpent]

You realize he never said what his "solution" was? That's because, like the rest of the Democrats, he never had one.
The republicans sure as heck don't have one do they?

Yeah they do - Iraqi takeover in the fullest. This will take them years to get complete but once enough brainwashing schools and brainwashed Iraqi childern grow up to love the American man will we leave. It's the republicans only chance to make the world think that they accomplished something and they will always cling to their saying of "We never said how long it would take".

Forced American education, forced religion, force grooming standards, forced government, and forced labor all at gunpoint. This is America's version of creating peace in the middle east!

Thank God you people are out of power. We absolutely cannot afford your cynicism and sense of defeat at this time. You can parade around as a failure all you want. You can continue to spit on those who have made the sacrifices. Meanwhile, the effort will continue without you.


That sure is some "effort" your side is making over there in Iraq right now. Lots of support and friends on that side of the world. :nope:

[Sea Demon]

That sure is some "effort" your side is making over there in Iraq right now. Lots of support and friends on that side of the world. :nope:

That's OK. While you continue to spit on our military men and women, we will support their efforts. While you continue to be Al Qaeda's mouthpiece, we will honor the sacrifices of those who serve in the uniform. And thank God you people aren't in power. :)

[bradclark1]

You can parade around as a failure all you want. You can continue to spit on those who have made the sacrifices. Meanwhile, the effort will continue without you.

Don't come all high and mighty. You haven't made any sacrifice or any effort. Because your party made a cluster of Iraq from day one doesn't mean I'm dumb enough to follow blindly. I don't think our men and womens lives are so cheap as to blindly keep feeding for no point but to prop up this president If you seem to know what the republican war plan is please enlighten me. Hell, you could probably enlighten eighty percent of this country. But most everybody knows you can't answer that question can you? You also don't seem to be paying attention to the news this past month. People like you are dangerous because you can't think nor see whats in front of your face. All you can do is wave the flag and lap up whatever this administration pumps out which is contrary to reality.
Keep being a mushroom.

[ASWnut101]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......

[Sea Demon]

Don't come all high and mighty. You haven't made any sacrifice or any effort. Because your party made a cluster of Iraq from day one doesn't mean I'm dumb enough to follow blindly. I don't think our men and womens lives are so cheap as to blindly keep feeding for no point but to prop up this president If you seem to know what the republican war plan is please enlighten me. Hell, you could probably enlighten eighty percent of this country. But most everybody knows you can't answer that question can you? You also don't seem to be paying attention to the news this past month. People like you are dangerous because you can't think nor see whats in front of your face. All you can do is wave the flag and lap up whatever this administration pumps out which is contrary to reality.
Keep being a mushroom.

You certainly are doing nothing than killing support for the war and energizing the terrorists opposing our troops. Your statements show that those on the left have no ability to fight this war or face an enemy like Islamic terrorists. You lefties need to be kept as far away from the levers of government as possible.

As far as what the total plan for the war is....I don't know. And neither does the average citizen out there. I am not paid to make those assessments. Some things are on a need to know basis. But we do have people we have placed in these positions to do this job. Just because it's not a looney democrat like what you want, you shouldn't place our troops in danger by giving propaganda victories to our enemies. Let's allow those in the positions of military, intelligence, and national security do their jobs....shall we? I am paying attention. Lefties are doing their very best to kill the war effort at any cost. Just for a perverse hatred of GW Bush. All because he won election 2000. And this means a victorious and deadly Islamic enemy. An emboldened enemy like that could prove fatal. Bush ain't pulling the troops and I'm glad. I'm also gracious for their sacrifices. It's unfortunate that democrats have become Al Qaeda's best friend in regard to information warfare.

[SubSerpent]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

[ASWnut101]

and what was your job in the Navy?

[SubSerpent]

and what was your job in the Navy?

Well let's see here. I started off as a deck seaman (E1-E3) painting ships, worked my way up to Boatswain's Mate 2nd class (E5) onboard ships (FFGs and DDGs), got coxswain qualified and went to work piloting a SEAL team around on SWCC boat for a little over a year. Left that command and went to Italy to go to work for NATO and worked for one of the highest ranking Admirals in the US Navy during that tour as his personal yacht pilot (cake duty).

I got tired of moving all the time and my wife and I just wanted to settle down, so I got out for her more than I wanted to get out for myself. Now I go to school full time as a student on the MGIB benefits!

[ASWnut101]

Not bad........

as i have said before, i do NOT hate vets!

that was really just a curious question.....

[Sea Demon]

Well let's see here. I started off as a deck seaman (E1-E3) painting ships, worked my way up to Boatswain's Mate 2nd class (E5) onboard ships (FFGs and DDGs), got coxswain qualified and went to work piloting a SEAL team around on SWCC boat for a little over a year. Left that command and went to Italy to go to work for NATO and worked for one of the highest ranking Admirals in the US Navy during that tour as his personal yacht pilot (cake duty).

I got tired of moving all the time and my wife and I just wanted to settle down, so I got out for her more than I wanted to get out for myself. Now I go to school full time as a student on the MGIB benefits!

Well, good on ya'. But why come back and essentially defacto root for the enemy who opposes your former partners? Just because you hate Bush?!?! All because you believe ridiculous conpiracy theories? All because you were frosted Bush won the 2000 election, has since gotten most of what he wants, and continued on to win the 2004 election? That's a reason to try and attempt to kill support for the war and our service men and women?

I don't think you realize how dangerous it will be if this enemy in Iraq wins. Maybe someday when you mature a little and have kids, you may see things differently. Having kids changes your outlook.

[SubSerpent]

Well let's see here. I started off as a deck seaman (E1-E3) painting ships, worked my way up to Boatswain's Mate 2nd class (E5) onboard ships (FFGs and DDGs), got coxswain qualified and went to work piloting a SEAL team around on SWCC boat for a little over a year. Left that command and went to Italy to go to work for NATO and worked for one of the highest ranking Admirals in the US Navy during that tour as his personal yacht pilot (cake duty).

I got tired of moving all the time and my wife and I just wanted to settle down, so I got out for her more than I wanted to get out for myself. Now I go to school full time as a student on the MGIB benefits!

Well, good on ya'. But why come back and essentially defacto root for the enemy who opposes your former partners? Just because you hate Bush?!?! All because you believe ridiculous conpiracy theories? All because you were frosted Bush won the 2000 election, has since gotten most of what he wants, and continued on to win the 2004 election? That's a reason to try and attempt to kill support for the war and our service men and women?

I don't think you realize how dangerous it will be if this enemy in Iraq wins. Maybe someday when you mature a little and have kids, you may see things differently. Having kids changes your outlook.


Don't compare Bush to my shipmates! He's not even close to the same league as them! He's not worthy to polish their shoes in my opinion!

I don't root for the enemy. Iraqis were never an enemy of mine. Al Qaeda was and the Serbs were.

It's not true. I actually supported Bush until he attacked Iraq as I have stated before. I totally agreed with him to seek vengence among the taliban and al qaeda.

I have kids BTW. I have a 6 month old daughter.

[Sea Demon]

Don't compare Bush to my shipmates! He's not even close to the same league as them! He's not worthy to polish their shoes in my opinion!

He's their Commander in Chief. And he's a Godsend compared to Clinton. Especially when dealing with national security secrets, and military unit budgeting. I was there and remember both men. :yep:

We're not fighting against Iraqi's. We're fighting against a terrorist insurgency there. And so far the military under Bush has killed thousands of them.

[Happy Times]

and what was your job in the Navy?
Well let's see here. I started off as a deck seaman (E1-E3) painting ships, worked my way up to Boatswain's Mate 2nd class (E5) onboard ships (FFGs and DDGs), got coxswain qualified and went to work piloting a SEAL team around on SWCC boat for a little over a year. Left that command and went to Italy to go to work for NATO and worked for one of the highest ranking Admirals in the US Navy during that tour as his personal yacht pilot (cake duty).

I got tired of moving all the time and my wife and I just wanted to settle down, so I got out for her more than I wanted to get out for myself. Now I go to school full time as a student on the MGIB benefits! I dont want to get involved on your "internal" party politics but i would like to hear more about the " Boat Guys". Ive had the pleasure to be in board these boats below,but i suspect yours are even more powerful? http://www.marinealutech.com/kuvat/m8china.jpg http://www.marinealutech.com/kuvat/m12arch.jpg
http://www.marinealutech.com/index1.htm

[SubSerpent]

Don't compare Bush to my shipmates! He's not even close to the same league as them! He's not worthy to polish their shoes in my opinion!

He's their Commander in Chief. And he's a Godsend compared to Clinton. Especially when dealing with national security secrets, and military unit budgeting. I was there and remember both men. :yep:


I don't consider putting the lives of my fellow shipmates or military brethren for that matter into harms way in Iraq a God send considering Bush is just using them as tools to fight a war HE wanted - not them!

[ASWnut101]

But Clinton wanted Serbia, too.....

[SubSerpent]

Here is a link to some information about them.


This is the 11m type (Rhib) I piloted - not the bigger version (Mk V)

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/abo_rib.asp

And these are the Navy rates (jobs) that work on them and utilize them

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/bec_sourcerates.asp

[Sea Demon]

I don't consider putting the lives of my fellow shipmates or military brethren for that matter into harms way in Iraq a God send considering Bush is just using them as tools to fight a war HE wanted - not them!

I consider a response against terror a Godsend. I'd rather have a President willing to confront the threat than keep it happening over and over again...all the while they gain strength and resolve. If the military ain't gonna do it...then who? When I joined the service, I knew I might be called into action. And like it or not, the American people reelected Bush. And like it or not, Al Qaeda's there. And the military are killing them over there. I prefer that arrangement. And I thank them for their service. Bush is only doing a job Clinton refused to do.

[SubSerpent]

I don't consider putting the lives of my fellow shipmates or military brethren for that matter into harms way in Iraq a God send considering Bush is just using them as tools to fight a war HE wanted - not them!

I consider a response against terror a Godsend. I'd rather have a President willing to confront the threat than keep it happening over and over again...all the while they gain strength and resolve. If the military ain't gonna do it...then who? When I joined the service, I knew I might be called into action. And like it or not, the American people reelected Bush. And like it or not, Al Qaeda's there. And the military are killing them over there. I prefer that arrangement. And I thank them for their service. Bush is only doing a job Clinton refused to do.

No Sea Demon! You still view Iraqis as terrorist and this is not the case. They are people just like you and me and had lives prior to the invasion Bush pushed for. Al Qaeda is the enemy and they are the ones that need to be eraticated from this planet. That is ALL I am going to say about that!

[Happy Times]

[quote=SubSerpent]Here is a link to some information about them.


This is the 11m type (Rhib) I piloted - not the bigger version (Mk V)

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/abo_rib.asp

Thanks! Its 10 knots faster that the G-boat.:up: That takes skill to handle that in all conditions, respect.:rock:

[Sea Demon]

No Sea Demon! You still view Iraqis as terrorist and this is not the case. They are people just like you and me and had lives prior to the invasion Bush pushed for. Al Qaeda is the enemy and they are the ones that need to be eraticated from this planet. That is ALL I am going to say about that!

Uh. No kidding. The military is not at war with Iraq's population. But with the terrorist insurgency. But nevertheless I think you should actually read the Iraq war resolution and see why we actually went there. It's rather enlightening. You might be surprised that there is actually no conspiracy theory here.

[SubSerpent]

[quote=SubSerpent]Here is a link to some information about them.


This is the 11m type (Rhib) I piloted - not the bigger version (Mk V)

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/abo_rib.asp

Thanks! Its 10 knots faster that the G-boat.:up: That takes skill to handle that in all conditions, respect.:rock:

I thought it was the greatest job ever! Too bad a knee injury pulled me off them for good! This is when I got reassigned to pilot much slower and more political boats and Officer's around on. Which was fun too! Got to meet a lot interesting people.

[Bum]

[quote=SubSerpent]Here is a link to some information about them.


This is the 11m type (Rhib) I piloted - not the bigger version (Mk V)

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/abo_rib.asp

Thanks! Its 10 knots faster that the G-boat.:up: That takes skill to handle that in all conditions, respect.:rock:

I thought it was the greatest job ever! Too bad a knee injury pulled me off them for good! This is when I got reassigned to pilot much slower and more political boats and Officer's around on. Which was fun too! Got to meet a lot interesting people.

Did you rag on them endlessly for supporting the President? :lol:

[SubSerpent]

[quote=SubSerpent]Here is a link to some information about them.


This is the 11m type (Rhib) I piloted - not the bigger version (Mk V)

http://www.sealchallenge.navy.mil/swcc/abo_rib.asp

Thanks! Its 10 knots faster that the G-boat.:up: That takes skill to handle that in all conditions, respect.:rock:

I thought it was the greatest job ever! Too bad a knee injury pulled me off them for good! This is when I got reassigned to pilot much slower and more political boats and Officer's around on. Which was fun too! Got to meet a lot interesting people.

Did you rag on them endlessly for supporting the President? :lol:

Actually Clinton was president then. Some had their opinions about him and the others were just born to kill someone I think and didn't care who was president. I just drove the boat. I was like a SEAL team taxi driver. My nickname to the SEAL team was "Cabby" LOL!!! :rotfl: Their only wish in life was that ALL road ways were made of water. I think some of them might have retired and moved to Venice! I'm serious, those guys LOVE the water. They are like fish with arms and legs!

[bradclark1]

You certainly are doing nothing than killing support for the war and energizing the terrorists opposing our troops. Your statements show that those on the left have no ability to fight this war or face an enemy like Islamic terrorists. You lefties need to be kept as far away from the levers of government as possible.

As far as what the total plan for the war is....I don't know. And neither does the average citizen out there. I am not paid to make those assessments. Some things are on a need to know basis. But we do have people we have placed in these positions to do this job. Just because it's not a looney democrat like what you want, you shouldn't place our troops in danger by giving propaganda victories to our enemies. Let's allow those in the positions of military, intelligence, and national security do their jobs....shall we? I am paying attention. Lefties are doing their very best to kill the war effort at any cost. Just for a perverse hatred of GW Bush. All because he won election 2000. And this means a victorious and deadly Islamic enemy. An emboldened enemy like that could prove fatal. Bush ain't pulling the troops and I'm glad. I'm also gracious for their sacrifices. It's unfortunate that democrats have become Al Qaeda's best friend in regard to information warfare.

We don't have enough troops. Our troops are losing ground. Unit tours have been extended and those units on rest/training are having there times shortened.
We are so short handed over there female medics are now being used to support combat units.
General officers are disgruntled and Casey is afraid of being labled with General Westmorland.
We have no control in Anbar province which is 1/3 of Iraq. The troops we did have there were pulled and sent to Bagdad.
In the regions we do have troops present in the other 2/3 there are a number of towns where coalition forces dare not go.
General Ab. says we could win with unlimited support and unlimited time. Can you read inbetween the lines here?
Meanwhile Afganistan is calling for more troops because they can't keep up with the insurgency. Why? Because the troops that should be in Afganistan are in Iraq!
Now! Where are we going to get these troops from? The draft?
Now! Do we loose both or do we loose one?
What about these other countries we are going to invade to carry on this war on terror? How are we going to do that?
I know your standard answer. We pay people to figure that stuff out. Problem with that is they haven't done a very stellar job in the last five years have they?
And face it we aren't at war. If we were at war the country would be on a war footing which we aren't because if we were we would have a minimum of 400,000 troops in Iraq alone. Thats what the chief of staff told congress before Rumsfeld fired him.

And Bush calls Iraq a comma in history! Is this guy a little short in the reality department? Not to mention that comment insults those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

[SubSerpent]

You certainly are doing nothing than killing support for the war and energizing the terrorists opposing our troops. Your statements show that those on the left have no ability to fight this war or face an enemy like Islamic terrorists. You lefties need to be kept as far away from the levers of government as possible.

As far as what the total plan for the war is....I don't know. And neither does the average citizen out there. I am not paid to make those assessments. Some things are on a need to know basis. But we do have people we have placed in these positions to do this job. Just because it's not a looney democrat like what you want, you shouldn't place our troops in danger by giving propaganda victories to our enemies. Let's allow those in the positions of military, intelligence, and national security do their jobs....shall we? I am paying attention. Lefties are doing their very best to kill the war effort at any cost. Just for a perverse hatred of GW Bush. All because he won election 2000. And this means a victorious and deadly Islamic enemy. An emboldened enemy like that could prove fatal. Bush ain't pulling the troops and I'm glad. I'm also gracious for their sacrifices. It's unfortunate that democrats have become Al Qaeda's best friend in regard to information warfare.

We don't have enough troops. Our troops are losing ground. Unit tours have been extended and those units on rest/training are having there times shortened.
We are so short handed over there female medics are now being used to support combat units.
General officers are disgruntled and Casey is afraid of being labled with General Westmorland.
We have no control in Anbar province which is 1/3 of Iraq. The troops we did have there were pulled and sent to Bagdad.
In the regions we do have troops present in the other 2/3 there are a number of towns where coalition forces dare not go.
General Ab. says we could win with unlimited support and unlimited time. Can you read inbetween the lines here?
Meanwhile Afganistan is calling for more troops because they can't keep up with the insurgency. Why? Because the troops that should be in Afganistan are in Iraq!
Now! Where are we going to get these troops from? The draft?
Now! Do we loose both or do we loose one?
What about these other countries we are going to invade to carry on this war on terror? How are we going to do that?
I know your standard answer. We pay people to figure that stuff out. Problem with that is they haven't done a very stellar job in the last five years have they?
And face it we aren't at war. If we were at war the country would be on a war footing which we aren't because if we were we would have a minimum of 400,000 troops in Iraq alone. Thats what the chief of staff told congress before Rumsfeld fired him.

And Bush calls Iraq a comma in history! Is this guy a little short in the reality department? Not to mention that comment insults those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice.


I don't know what to say to this Brad! I think this might be the best and most accurate post I have seen on this entire forum! Bravo mate! Hit the nail on the head with that one! I'm sure Gonzo and his giant nose will be here soon to blow his snot all over it though! But I thought it was accurate and I totally agree. Great post! :up: :rock:

[joea]

You certainly are doing nothing than killing support for the war and energizing the terrorists opposing our troops. Your statements show that those on the left have no ability to fight this war or face an enemy like Islamic terrorists. You lefties need to be kept as far away from the levers of government as possible.

As far as what the total plan for the war is....I don't know. And neither does the average citizen out there. I am not paid to make those assessments. Some things are on a need to know basis. But we do have people we have placed in these positions to do this job. Just because it's not a looney democrat like what you want, you shouldn't place our troops in danger by giving propaganda victories to our enemies. Let's allow those in the positions of military, intelligence, and national security do their jobs....shall we? I am paying attention. Lefties are doing their very best to kill the war effort at any cost. Just for a perverse hatred of GW Bush. All because he won election 2000. And this means a victorious and deadly Islamic enemy. An emboldened enemy like that could prove fatal. Bush ain't pulling the troops and I'm glad. I'm also gracious for their sacrifices. It's unfortunate that democrats have become Al Qaeda's best friend in regard to information warfare.

We don't have enough troops. Our troops are losing ground. Unit tours have been extended and those units on rest/training are having there times shortened.
We are so short handed over there female medics are now being used to support combat units.
General officers are disgruntled and Casey is afraid of being labled with General Westmorland.
We have no control in Anbar province which is 1/3 of Iraq. The troops we did have there were pulled and sent to Bagdad.
In the regions we do have troops present in the other 2/3 there are a number of towns where coalition forces dare not go.
General Ab. says we could win with unlimited support and unlimited time. Can you read inbetween the lines here?
Meanwhile Afganistan is calling for more troops because they can't keep up with the insurgency. Why? Because the troops that should be in Afganistan are in Iraq!
Now! Where are we going to get these troops from? The draft?
Now! Do we loose both or do we loose one?
What about these other countries we are going to invade to carry on this war on terror? How are we going to do that?
I know your standard answer. We pay people to figure that stuff out. Problem with that is they haven't done a very stellar job in the last five years have they?
And face it we aren't at war. If we were at war the country would be on a war footing which we aren't because if we were we would have a minimum of 400,000 troops in Iraq alone. Thats what the chief of staff told congress before Rumsfeld fired him.

And Bush calls Iraq a comma in history! Is this guy a little short in the reality department? Not to mention that comment insults those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice.


I don't know what to say to this Brad! I think this might be the best and most accurate post I have seen on this entire forum! Bravo mate! Hit the nail on the head with that one! I'm sure Gonzo and his giant nose will be here soon to blow his snot all over it though! But I thought it was accurate and I totally agree. Great post! :up: :rock:

Agree 100% as well, sorry I'm a ferriner and have no business commenting but still.

[Skybird]

You certainly are doing nothing than killing support for the war and energizing the terrorists opposing our troops. Your statements show that those on the left have no ability to fight this war or face an enemy like Islamic terrorists. You lefties need to be kept as far away from the levers of government as possible.

As far as what the total plan for the war is....I don't know. And neither does the average citizen out there. I am not paid to make those assessments. Some things are on a need to know basis. But we do have people we have placed in these positions to do this job. Just because it's not a looney democrat like what you want, you shouldn't place our troops in danger by giving propaganda victories to our enemies. Let's allow those in the positions of military, intelligence, and national security do their jobs....shall we? I am paying attention. Lefties are doing their very best to kill the war effort at any cost. Just for a perverse hatred of GW Bush. All because he won election 2000. And this means a victorious and deadly Islamic enemy. An emboldened enemy like that could prove fatal. Bush ain't pulling the troops and I'm glad. I'm also gracious for their sacrifices. It's unfortunate that democrats have become Al Qaeda's best friend in regard to information warfare.

We don't have enough troops. Our troops are losing ground. Unit tours have been extended and those units on rest/training are having there times shortened.
We are so short handed over there female medics are now being used to support combat units.
General officers are disgruntled and Casey is afraid of being labled with General Westmorland.
We have no control in Anbar province which is 1/3 of Iraq. The troops we did have there were pulled and sent to Bagdad.
In the regions we do have troops present in the other 2/3 there are a number of towns where coalition forces dare not go.
General Ab. says we could win with unlimited support and unlimited time. Can you read inbetween the lines here?
Meanwhile Afganistan is calling for more troops because they can't keep up with the insurgency. Why? Because the troops that should be in Afganistan are in Iraq!
Now! Where are we going to get these troops from? The draft?
Now! Do we loose both or do we loose one?
What about these other countries we are going to invade to carry on this war on terror? How are we going to do that?
I know your standard answer. We pay people to figure that stuff out. Problem with that is they haven't done a very stellar job in the last five years have they?
And face it we aren't at war. If we were at war the country would be on a war footing which we aren't because if we were we would have a minimum of 400,000 troops in Iraq alone. Thats what the chief of staff told congress before Rumsfeld fired him.

And Bush calls Iraq a comma in history! Is this guy a little short in the reality department? Not to mention that comment insults those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

Very well done, Brad. :up: My thoughts exactly.

[Konovalov]

I also agree with Brad's analysis. Of course this then begs the question of why is Rumsfeld still in the job as Secretary of Defence? Why has President Bush not fired him? Surely it is time for new management at the DOD? :hmm:

[SkvyWvr]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

[SubSerpent]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

Oh brother! :nope:

I can't even begin to imagine how that family situation is.

I think I'd have to rag on him everyday if I were you! Why didn't he go Navy?

[SkvyWvr]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

Oh brother! :nope:

I can't even begin to imagine how that family situation is.

I think I'd have to rag on him everyday if I were you! Why didn't he go Navy?

It gets better, I have a son in the Navy another in the Marines (2 tours in Iraq) and a soon to be ex-wife:D that was in the Army. My Marine gets alot of crap when he comes over. My brother didn't go Navy because Kent State only offered ROTC for the Airforce.

[SubSerpent]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

Oh brother! :nope:

I can't even begin to imagine how that family situation is.

I think I'd have to rag on him everyday if I were you! Why didn't he go Navy?

It gets better, I have a son in the Navy another in the Marines (2 tours in Iraq) and a soon to be ex-wife:D that was in the Army. My Marine gets alot of crap when he comes over.


No, say it ain't so!!!:nope:


A jarhead Marine for a son? OMFG!!!! I'd put him up for adoption if I were you!!!:up: LOL!!!:lol:

Well, at least one of your sons has his head on straight and went the right direction! Bravo Zulu to him! :rock:

[SkvyWvr]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

Oh brother! :nope:

I can't even begin to imagine how that family situation is.

I think I'd have to rag on him everyday if I were you! Why didn't he go Navy?

It gets better, I have a son in the Navy another in the Marines (2 tours in Iraq) and a soon to be ex-wife:D that was in the Army. My Marine gets alot of crap when he comes over.


No, say it ain't so!!!:nope:


A jarhead Marine for a son? OMFG!!!! I'd put him up for adoption if I were you!!!:up: LOL!!!:lol:

Well, at least one of your sons has his head on straight and went the right direction! Bravo Zulu to him! :rock:

I'm very proud of them both. I have a 14yr old daughter who wants to get into the Annapolis. I've told her that if her grades are not up to speed, I'll drop her off at the Navy recruiters on her 18th bday.:rotfl: :rotfl:

[SubSerpent]

and what have you done for the country, besides soak-up welfare and bitch about the government? Don't think I havent done anything yet, as i am planning to get a carrer in the USAF in a few years......


I'm a veteran of the US Navy and have served in two war zones. Bosnia and the middle east!

BTW USAF is for little girls. Join the Navy like SkvyWvr, Sailor Steve, and myself did. Plus the Navy has the better "air" force!

Airforce? Whats that?:rotfl: :rotfl:
Just kidding man. My brother just retired as a Major from the USAF. He said it was more of a corperation than the military.

Oh brother! :nope:

I can't even begin to imagine how that family situation is.

I think I'd have to rag on him everyday if I were you! Why didn't he go Navy?

It gets better, I have a son in the Navy another in the Marines (2 tours in Iraq) and a soon to be ex-wife:D that was in the Army. My Marine gets alot of crap when he comes over.


No, say it ain't so!!!:nope:


A jarhead Marine for a son? OMFG!!!! I'd put him up for adoption if I were you!!!:up: LOL!!!:lol:

Well, at least one of your sons has his head on straight and went the right direction! Bravo Zulu to him! :rock:

I'm very proud of them both. I have a 14yr old daughter who wants to get into the Annapolis. I've told her that if her grades are not up to speed, I'll drop her off at the Navy recruiters on her 18th bday.:rotfl: :rotfl:

Make sure she goes into the DECK department as a seaman too! Undesignated!!! LOL!!! Let's see how she likes painting and working parties!!!:lol:

Haze gray and Underway!!!!:rock:

[Deputy]

I actually supported Bush until he attacked Iraq as I have stated before. I totally agreed with him to seek vengence among the taliban and al qaeda.

I have kids BTW. I have a 6 month old daughter.

Hmmmm...sounds like SubSerpent served in the same Navy as John Kerry. His statement above sure rang a bell...

“I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”...John Kerry, 2003, on funding the war in Iraq and support of our troops.

Hey SubSerpent...did you "win three Purple Hearts" too? :rotfl:

Still waiting for your "solution" on what to do in Iraq. Quit playing duck and dodge and illunminate us as to how we should procede. And sorry...using a time macine to go back and change elections is not allowed :lol:

Are flip-flops standard issue in the Navy???

Dep

[Deputy]

No Sea Demon! You still view Iraqis as terrorist and this is not the case. They are people just like you and me and had lives prior to the invasion Bush pushed for.

Well SOME of them had lives. Just ask the Kurds in northern Iraq what their life was like prior to the Liberation of Iraq. I don't think they would be happy to see Saddam Insane back in power.

Dep

[SkvyWvr]

I actually supported Bush until he attacked Iraq as I have stated before. I totally agreed with him to seek vengence among the taliban and al qaeda.

I have kids BTW. I have a 6 month old daughter.

Hmmmm...sounds like SubSerpent served in the same Navy as John Kerry. His statement above sure rang a bell...

“I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”...John Kerry, 2003, on funding the war in Iraq and support of our troops.

Hey SubSerpent...did you "win three Purple Hearts" too? :rotfl:

Still waiting for your "solution" on what to do in Iraq. Quit playing duck and dodge and illunminate us as to how we should procede. And sorry...using a time macine to go back and change elections is not allowed :lol:

Are flip-flops standard issue in the Navy???

Dep

Easy on the Navy cracks unless you've done time on station.:arrgh!:

[Deputy]

"Easy on the Navy cracks unless you've done time on station.:arrgh!:"

LOL...just going on a rowboat gives me the queezies. My military time was spent waist deep in mud, muck, and buffalo poop. No offense to the swabbies out there. I like solid (or at least, semi-solid) mother Earth underfoot.

Dep...the landlubber

[SubSerpent]

I actually supported Bush until he attacked Iraq as I have stated before. I totally agreed with him to seek vengence among the taliban and al qaeda.

I have kids BTW. I have a 6 month old daughter.

Hmmmm...sounds like SubSerpent served in the same Navy as John Kerry. His statement above sure rang a bell...

“I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”...John Kerry, 2003, on funding the war in Iraq and support of our troops.

Hey SubSerpent...did you "win three Purple Hearts" too? :rotfl:

Still waiting for your "solution" on what to do in Iraq. Quit playing duck and dodge and illunminate us as to how we should procede. And sorry...using a time macine to go back and change elections is not allowed :lol:

Are flip-flops standard issue in the Navy???

Dep

Well yes, as a matter of fact I did serve in the same Navy as John Kerry only much further down the road. It's still the same US Navy after all unless you know something I don't, which I HIGHLY doubt!

No, I have no purple hearts and I never saw combat with my own two eyes. Thank God!

I've stated my solution to Iraq can't be achieved because the damage is already done. The only thing left to do is to leave Iraq and head back to Afganistan and finish off the REAL terrorists and to find and kill Osama Bin Forgotten. He's not worthy of a trial.

Flip Flops ARE standard issue in the Navy btw. They are aka shower shoes! :yep:

[Deputy]

"I've stated my solution to Iraq can't be achieved because the damage is already done."

So you complain and complain but offer NO solution. Hellooooo Mr. Liberal Democrat. :D
Geez...not even any Monday-morning-quaterbacking to offer? Remember...if you aren't part of the SOLUTION, you're part of the PROBLEM :up:

I gotta ask myself WWJKD after 9/11? (What Would John Kerry Do)...I guess he would consult with France and figure out some way to surrender. Or maybe search for a pill factory to bomb like Bill Klinton. Or maybe Teresa Heinz would just bomb the ragheads with Catsup!!! :rotfl:

Dep

[SubSerpent]

"I've stated my solution to Iraq can't be achieved because the damage is already done."

So you complain and complain but offer NO solution. Hellooooo Mr. Liberal Democrat. :D
Geez...not even any Monday-morning-quaterbacking to offer? Remember...if you aren't part of the SOLUTION, you're part of the PROBLEM :up:

I gotta ask myself WWJKD after 9/11? (What Would John Kerry Do)...I guess he would consult with France and figure out some way to surrender. Or maybe search for a pill factory to bomb like Bill Klinton. Or maybe Teresa Heinz would just bomb the ragheads with Catsup!!! :rotfl:

Dep


You are just being childish now and perhaps a bit looney! Perhaps you should stop eating those paint chips! :lol:

[ASWnut101]

someone could probably say the same about you

[SubSerpent]

someone could probably say the same about you

Oh well! Can't please everyone! :cry:

[Deputy]

You are just being childish now and perhaps a bit looney! Perhaps you should stop eating those paint chips! :lol:

So SubSerpent's new nickname is DucknDodge. No suggestions for solving Iraq...just gripes. :down:

Dep

[Happy Times]

"I've stated my solution to Iraq can't be achieved because the damage is already done."

So you complain and complain but offer NO solution. Hellooooo Mr. Liberal Democrat. :D
Geez...not even any Monday-morning-quaterbacking to offer? Remember...if you aren't part of the SOLUTION, you're part of the PROBLEM :up:

I gotta ask myself WWJKD after 9/11? (What Would John Kerry Do)...I guess he would consult with France and figure out some way to surrender. Or maybe search for a pill factory to bomb like Bill Klinton. Or maybe Teresa Heinz would just bomb the ragheads with Catsup!!! :rotfl:

Dep French are many times wiewed a little arrogant by other Europeans. But speaking of their military, they have cause for some pride. They have developed it to be independent from NATO. And have probaly the BEST military in Europe at this date. I may think something funny about the French at times but thinking they would surrender easily isnt one of them.

[SubSerpent]

You are just being childish now and perhaps a bit looney! Perhaps you should stop eating those paint chips! :lol:

So SubSerpent's new nickname is DucknDodge. No suggestions for solving Iraq...just gripes. :down:

Dep


Well, don't dig a hole in future and then come and ask me and the Dems how to fill it. I don't know what to do about Iraq other than leave, right away, before anymore bullets get wasted on innocent people that could be used on Al Qaeda terrorists.

Bush and his admin started the fire, let them figure out how to put it out! I've already stated my solution can't be achieved now. Prior to the invasion of Iraq my answer would have simply been, "Don't go to war with Iraq" and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now and Osama Bin Forgotten would most likely have been caught or killed by now.

Instead Bush is simply ignoring the fact that the world's craziest madman is still out there and planning the next 9/11. His strategy is to just sit like a cat in front of a mouse hole and wait for the mouse to come out. Funny when the mouse comes out a different hole the cat wasn't expecting and hits him again.

I call it the Tom & Jerry Tactic and it has been proven in real life situations to make a complete fool out of the enemy that plays the cat. In the Navy FFGs and SSNs play these games all to often. IE. FFG thinks she's gotten the SSN, but no, the table turns again in the SSNs favor and the FFG is destroyed.

[August]

I love how some people think that eliminating one man will fix everthing. bin Laden is not the heart and soul of Al Quaeda, nor is Al Quaeda the only terrorist organization out there.

Typical Democrats still foolishly confusing war with a police investigation...

[Deputy]

Bennie Ladden is holed up in some cave wasting away. He can't get proper medical treatment for whatever ails him (and I hope it's something extremely painful that causes much suffering). Killing Bennie may be symbolic, but they will have a replacement for him before you can blink your eyes. When al-Qaeda has to BEG for assistance from renegade scientists to build them a dirty bomb, I think we have really put the hurt on them. They are running out of nitwit fighters. As far as not going to Iraq...this is from al-Qaeda's own press release:

9/28/06
The new leader of al Qaeda in Iraq said in an audiotape posted on the Internet Thursday that more than 4,000 foreign insurgent fighters have been killed in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003.
“The blood has been spilled in Iraq of more than 4,000 foreigners who came to fight,” said the man, who identified himself as Abu Hamza al-Muhajir - also known as Abu Ayyub al-Masri - the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq, though the voice could not be independently identified.
The Arabic word he used indicated he was speaking about foreigners who joined the insurgency in Iraq, not coalition troops.

http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=1451

Now tell me it wasn't worth going to Iraq :smug:
4000 less dirtbags that might have come to the US or some other country to do their terrorist BS.

Dep

[bradclark1]

Now tell me it wasn't worth going to Iraq :smug:
4000 less dirtbags that might have come to the US or some other country to do their terrorist BS.

Two of them for one of ours. I don't call that good.

[Deputy]

Now tell me it wasn't worth going to Iraq :smug:
4000 less dirtbags that might have come to the US or some other country to do their terrorist BS.

Two of them for one of ours. I don't call that good.

There are fewer of them so their supply is dwindling quickly. And it only took a few of them to plow into those buildings on 9/11. The more we kill on them, the safer it is here. And your ratio is off by quite a bit. 4000 AL QAEDA are dead. But many more dirtbag terrorists are also dead.

Dep

[SubSerpent]

Now tell me it wasn't worth going to Iraq :smug:
4000 less dirtbags that might have come to the US or some other country to do their terrorist BS.

Dep


It wasn't worth it to go to Iraq. :nope:

What Bush did was use the US military first in Afganistan to push and drive the Al Qaeda terrorist organization up into countries like Iraq just so Bush could have another excuse to go to war with Iraq if the WMD plan failed with the American public. It was a well thought out plan by Herr Bush and his administration. He sure did make a fool out of all of us and that included you Deputy. The only difference is, that I am no longer fooled by this clown and you are.

So what, a few terrorist merged from Afganistan to Iraq. Some are probably in India and some are probably in China and some are probably here in the US. Does this mean Bush needs to go to war with all the countries in the world just to make sure he eradicates all the terrorist. Of course this means he'll have to have me, you, and everyone else mowed down by machine guns just to make sure he got them all. In the end, the world is dead and all that's left is Herr Bush. Of course that would never happen because all Bush really cares about is the Al Qaeda in IRAQ. He doesn't seem to give a damn that there is Al Qaeda in just about every country in the world. He's only going after the ones in Iraq as a cover up to just go to war with Iraq and to conquer Iraq. What about the Al Qaeda in the south pacific islands? What about the Al Qaeda in Europe? What about the Al Qaeda in the US?

[Deputy]

Funnny thing...but after Afghanistan and Iraq, and the death of FOUR THOUSAND AL Qaeda JUST IN IRAQ, and their desperate plea for scientists to make dirty bombs for them, and the terrible Homeland Security Department infringing on the civil rights of ragheads communicating with ragheads, no terror attack has occured on US soil SINCE 9/11. They may be in every country in the world, but they sure aren't the power they USED to be. And for such brave "freedom fighters", why the hell can't they pose for videos WITHOUT the towels covering up their faces? What the hell are they afraid of? The weak US military?

Dep