Berlin Opera pulled

[Yahoshua]

Guess what......

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060926/ap_on_en_mu/germany_opera_islam

[August]

Personally i couldn't give a rats ass about Muhammed. I'm kind of pissed at their bastardization of Mozart. :nope:

[Skybird]

I had this issue with AL today in PM.

The decision to pull the opera is under heavy fire in Germany. It is possible that it will not stand and the opera being played in december, instead of november (as planned).

As far as I do know, the opera itself is not the problem anyway. I don't know the opera myself, but it was said the scene when the heads of Jesus, Poseidon, Muhammad and Buddha are shown at the end (to illustrate the fight against the power of religious dogmas) is not part of the original Mozart opera, but has been added by the director as his interpretation and freedom of arts. Needless to say that I do not agree with that decision to pull it, it is ridiculous. While in the medias some private muslim persons said it should not last and that this would mean to submit to medieval rules, other private Muslim persons on camera agreed with the decision to pull it. the Muslim organizations said nothing, or welcomed it. what is no surprise at all, if you just know about the background of the various Muslim organizations in Germany. I am currently fast-reading the Verfassungsschutzbericht 2005 for Northrhine-Westphalia. No good-night-story that is. If I already would be dead, reading it loud at my grave could make me rising again in anger.

That lady responsible for that decision to pull the opera took a very biased decision, and probably intentionally did not talk about it with politicial and public representatives. Interior-minstre Schäuble is said to have asked her if she had gone totally nuts. I personally would fire her.

"Angst!" - That should not be an argument.

Let's play that piece, like we should feel free to do according to our rules, freedoms, values and laws. If somebody decides that infidels must be attacked for that, we are free to strike back. If we are not willing to do that - well, that is not their fault, but ours.

A similiar thing happened some months ago in France where Muslim organizations demanded that some piece by Hugo or voltaire should not more be played anywhere in france. Don't know what has come of that, though.

But I liked the way the pope again had dealt with Muslim representatives, some days ago. No discussion to relativize the freedom of speech or the reason in what he said and the truth of the histirical statement and it's representation in historical reality, no negotiation to damage western values and laws - but just telling them in brief (and for diplomatic standards: quite bluntly) that he regretted to have been misunderstood and misinterpreted, and that he thinks that religion and violance does not go well together, but religion and reason does. Will not have made him any more muslim friends, I suppose. :up: they came with wrong expectations and demands on their minds, he served them a short lecturing about what is right and wrong, reasonable and unacceptable - and send them away to think about it. Slowly but surely I become an honest fan of this guy!

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/26/1051092.html
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/26/1051438.html

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub28FC768942F34C5B8297CC6E16FFC8B4/Doc~E7CB8196F8402497891958B8BE1C31470~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html
http://www.faz.net/s/RubCF3AEB154CE64960822FA5429A182360/Doc~EE542D8F9B9544F9B9EB4981383C95B53~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

[Yahoshua]

I still think the Pope gave an inch too much.

OTOH, I wonder that if he had stood firm in the face of all the "criticism" from the Moslems if this incident would've been done at all?

[TteFAboB]

Tariq Ramadan interceded to actually stop that Voltaire play, twice in a decade. The moderate bastard who speaks what we want to hear, lies always, and walks hand-to-hand with extremists in the background.

The problems of freedom are solved by even more freedom. If we have a problem with this play, we are free to do our own. To put our own final scene, as we think is fair, necessary, proper.

Now if we allow censorship, then we are no longer free to make our own plays. We'll have to be approved by the censor council we create today.

As nobody is forced to go watch something they consider to be of bad taste, there are no policemen kidnapping and tying people to their seats, nobody shall force censorship upon me.

Today I am happy to see a blasphemy of Mozart go down, tomorrow it's my Opera about freedom that will be canceled for insulting the totalitarian culture.

An important comment on the Pope. Manuel II Paleolo's points were three:

1. That Islam adopted violence as a legitimate method of conversion.
2. That this is the only invention brought by Islam.
3. That converting through violence is wrong: convertion should be achieved through rational persuasion

The first point is an expression of an universally known fact. Even if the Pope didn't take it as his own opinion he cannot disagree with it, that would be denying history.

The second point is entirely false. Islam brought a wide variety of innovations, one of the most spetacular being the only religious criminal code destined to be applied to all of mankind and not just inside this or that nation in particular. This constitutes the specific difference of Islam and without it its pretension of being a new and autonomous revelation would loose its strongest argument.

The third point is a resume of the traditional doctrine of the Church and the Pope could not disagree with it.

Therefore, Benedict's disagreement can only be with the second point, a historical error forgivable for the Middle Ages but intolerable today. The only point possible of hurting the Muslims is then but an error the Pope did not agreed with nor could he given his respect for history, examplified in the entire speech itself.

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,439642,00.html

:

"And voilà, yours truly -- a secular, atheist Jew -- feels insulted. I feel offended, a victim of discrimination and marginalization. Why is Moses's head not in the sack? Whence this refusal to acknowledge the existence of one of the world's major religions?"

:lol:

"What's next? Hamburg Bishop Hans-Jochen Jaschke, a liberal Catholic, isn't the only one who believes religious feelings shouldn't be hurt. If this attitude prevails, drama, art and literature will have a hard time in the future. Voltaire, Spinoza and Heine will be banned from the libraries. Even a drama as harmless as Lessing's "Nathan the Wise" could cause outrage. The play features a dialogue between a Christian, a Jewish and a Muslim character. But it doesn't present them as absolute equals."

Not :lol: anymore.

[CB..]

it's no wonder they think we're weak.....we won't fight for the really important things the things we SAY are important to us...our culture... if we are as easily prepared to sacrifice our ART (note the capital letters) and our CULTURE then the battle is long since lost....
call me mad but i reckon we lost the battle over the cartoon debacle..
we should have stuck our heels in and point blank refused to bend on the issue...the muslims are behaving like spoilt brats lashing out at anything they think they can use against us....oh sure we have got the military power to stop them but have we got the cultural power to stop them....the one is useless without the other..and it's sad to say that they know this it's unlikely tho the muslims will ever get everything they want simply because we in the west will eventualy get bored (yes i did say bored) with them...just like us brits got bored of hearing about the I.R.A.
"ok blow up the damn supermarket you stupid b*st*rds... i'm sick to death of hearing about it"

course if the world economy collapses which there's a distinct possibility it might and or some global climate nightmare occurs then the whole ball game is up for grabs...but china will probably mop that one up if it comes to it..i dunno....i'd rather we were fighting for cartoons, plays. opera, etc etc than oil maybe if we were things would be working out different..

"where at first they burn books.......there eventualy they will burn people"

they have got us burning our own damn books for gawds sake..if we won't respect our own culture why should they???

[Skybird]

Well, Germany currently sees the first government-Islam-conference taking place. Interior minister Schäuble already said that Islam needs to be allowed to arrive in Europe, and that it already is an integral part of Germany.

Obviously no one has told him that Islam, by Koranic demand, rules out to ever give up any piece of land it ever has had under it's influence. That's why it is demanding to be given back or retake Spain, Sicily, southern Italy, Greece and the Aegean Sea. saying what he has said means that from now on Islam will never, never give up demands for Germany again,e ven when being kicked out for not being wanted anymore - this now will be a case of self-defence and defensive war. How can some Westerner say such irresponsible nonsens?

Or Schäuble knows that, but does not care. I don't know what scenario is more frightening.

Meanwhile, two representative polls in the last two weeks showed that 58, and 62 % of German people do no longer believe that tolerant and peaceful coexistence with Islam is possible. It is fair to say that a substantial majority of Germans do not want Islam inside our country. The number of German opposing is slowly but constantly climbing since years now. Politicians - do not take note of that at all.

Three of the four major Muslim groups being present in these talks - are rated by the Verfassungsschutz as extremely hostile to Germany constitutional order. Also, none of them represents more than 5% of the Muslim inn Germany, but almost all of them have strong ties to Turkish nationalism. It is said that 3 million Muslims, 1.8 million of them being turks, are living in Germany. but that is the official, the light figure only. Estimations on true numbers, taking also into account people that are not caught by such countings, or that are living here illegally, come to results of up to 6-6.5 million Muslims in Germany, most of them Turks.

and while the left-wing "intelligenzia" in Germany is masturbating over images of how nice it is to talk reasonable with Islamic representatives hostile to the constitution and how kind it is that they are willing in to visit a performance of Idomeneo in the Deutsche Oper in Berlin, another guy with far more influence has said this: "'Only dialogue we want is when all religions agree to convert to Islam' ( http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52167 )

Hallelujah. Where is my vomit bin...

[Perilscope]

"And voilà, yours truly -- a secular, atheist Jew -- feels insulted. I feel offended, a victim of discrimination and marginalization. Why is Moses's head not in the sack? Whence this refusal to acknowledge the existence of one of the world's major religions?"
Bah! if he would have said "...one of the most important religions...", I can understand. However, he said "one of the world's major religions". Judaism is important, but not major.

Here, I made this to know who stands where:
http://www.nettouring.com/mm/images/public/Worlds_Religion_by_Population.png
After looking at that, Judaism seems minor now! The guy lives in a bubble. :D

---------------------------------

Back on topic, as for the termination of that Mozart's opera, I think it was stupid, and to hell with the "risk analysis" produced by the office of criminal investigations. Another back step from us. At this point, I ask myself what's next each day...:nope:

[CB..]

i agree it is useless...and yet another argument agaisnt the dishonesty inherent in political correctness...(Political correctness has us burning our own books etc)...there is no point having discusions with a group of people who , when it boils right down to the last factor involved..are demanding the right to be ruled by the meanest thug with an AK47 a large funny hat and the biggest beard they can find...and that is it....what ever culture Islam once had it now has none other than that basic rule of fear...and it is useless to discuss issues with those whose only desire is to be ruled by thugs ..you may as well talk poetry with a fence post...they don't know why they want it themselves...they can no longer produce any culture worth even describing as culture so they are reduced to destroying those who have

they don't have any valid desires..how can we discuss compromising with people who don't have any valid desires..it's ludicriuos
they want to be able to kill their daughters if they marry some one they don't like? that's not a valid desire.....that's murder
the so called reasonable muslims would soon adopt the hard right fanatical doctrines if they were allowed to gain power..or they would be killed them selves we ALL know this...
hit them with human rights legislation and kick them out untill they decide they want to join the human race
the danger here is that in a democracy if enough of them enter your political system as voters they can simply vote for their desired party and it's game over..they can then abolish the political system and do what the heck they want.. that's what bin laden chuckles about when he's nodding of to sleep..

[The Avon Lady]

"And voilà, yours truly -- a secular, atheist Jew -- feels insulted. I feel offended, a victim of discrimination and marginalization. Why is Moses's head not in the sack? Whence this refusal to acknowledge the existence of one of the world's major religions?"
Bah! if he would have said "...one of the most important religions...", I can understand. However, he said "one of the world's major religions". Judaism is important, but not major.

Here, I made this to know who stands where:
http://www.nettouring.com/mm/images/public/Worlds_Religion_by_Population.png
After looking at that, Judaism seems minor now! The guy lives in a bubble. :D
You want bubble dwellers? I'll give you bubble dwellers!! (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013329.php) :88)

[Perilscope]

You want bubble dwellers? I'll give you bubble dwellers!! (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013329.php) :88)
huh! I do not understand your point with the bubble dwelling nor that link, what do you mean? :oops:

[Skybird]

Eh, AL, couldn't you stop using these stealthy hidden links and make them a bit more obvious? I am not following every line that I read with the mouse cursor...

[August]

Eh, AL, couldn't you stop using these stealthy hidden links and make them a bit more obvious? I am not following every line that I read with the mouse cursor...

She's caught me with that as well. I suggest blinking red underline.

[tycho102]

You want bubble dwellers? I'll give you bubble dwellers!! (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/013329.php) :88)

"Iranian TV: Disney's 'Pirates of the Caribbean - Dead Man's Chest' is a Pawn of the Zionist Lobby to Gain Cultural Control a two-fer: not only Jack Sparrow but also Tom and Jerry. Who knew?"


That is absolutely brilliant! Harry Potter is also a pawn of the Zionist Lobby to Gain "Cultural" Control. Anything that turns a jihadist's attention aways from direction by the imams and ayatollahs is a Zionist conspiracy.

Death to America. Death to Israel. Just as soon as I finish watching American Idol and Xena...

[Takeda Shingen]

it's no wonder they think we're weak.....we won't fight for the really important things the things we SAY are important to us...our culture... if we are as easily prepared to sacrifice our ART (note the capital letters) and our CULTURE then the battle is long since lost....
call me mad but i reckon we lost the battle over the cartoon debacle..
we should have stuck our heels in and point blank refused to bend on the issue...the muslims are behaving like spoilt brats lashing out at anything they think they can use against us....oh sure we have got the military power to stop them but have we got the cultural power to stop them....the one is useless without the other..and it's sad to say that they know this it's unlikely tho the muslims will ever get everything they want simply because we in the west will eventualy get bored (yes i did say bored) with them...just like us brits got bored of hearing about the I.R.A.
"ok blow up the damn supermarket you stupid b*st*rds... i'm sick to death of hearing about it"

course if the world economy collapses which there's a distinct possibility it might and or some global climate nightmare occurs then the whole ball game is up for grabs...but china will probably mop that one up if it comes to it..i dunno....i'd rather we were fighting for cartoons, plays. opera, etc etc than oil maybe if we were things would be working out different..

"where at first they burn books.......there eventualy they will burn people"

they have got us burning our own damn books for gawds sake..if we won't respect our own culture why should they???

Look, Islamic censorship is not at all desireable, but I have been reading about this planned performance for some time now. The scene in question was never part of the original libretto or score. The severed heads serve as a hinderance to artistic continuity of the piece, as the message of the king's cruelity has been beaten severely by this point. The addition, therefore, serves as meaningless excess.

Yes, directors do cite artistic liberty when doing this to opera. Everyone can recall the Patrice Chereau production of the Ring Cycle; perhaps the most famous example. Unfortunately, this tends to distort the original intent of the production, and what you get is an opera that is more by Chereau or Hans Neuenfels than by Richard Wagner, or W. A. Mozart. In this regard, I say good riddance to the Deutche Oper production.

[Skybird]

Let's keep the "Angst vor dem Islam", and the original content of the opera two separate things, Tak. And I already marked your argument anyway:

"As far as I do know, the opera itself is not the problem anyway. I don't know the opera myself, but it was said the scene when the heads of Jesus, Poseidon, Muhammad and Buddha are shown at the end (to illustrate the fight against the power of religious dogmas) is not part of the original Mozart opera, but has been added by the director as his interpretation and freedom of arts. Needless to say that I do not agree with that decision to pull it, it is ridiculous."

The real idiotic thing here is that a threat from Muslim side even has not been spoken out. The thing got cancelled just because it was considered to be possible that there may be protests. One even does not know who has launched the authorities to make a security assessment report, that is not automatic routine, but is only done by request. The requester is not identified so far. It could very well have been no Muslim, but an Anti-Muslim activist! This is the real scandal behind all this: that many people are willing to submit to Islamic demands - that even have not been stated, but are just imagined! Just the possebility that maybe, eventually, possibly, in the future Islam may worry about something that is being done already causes such people to give up in anticipated obedience.

Political pressure in Germany is mounting massively, I expect to see the opera being put back onto the seasonal plan soon anyway.

Maybe it all is a planned provocation by someone to reach exactly this result: a hardening of a public front not to allow Islamic demands to censor our public life. That is a third possebility for an explanation. Like I am cinvinced that the pope quote was no accident, but a precisely calculated "operation" to focus Western attention on a certain problem that we have with Islam's lacking control of it's tempers. Ratzinger simply is too intelligent and well-studied in Islam as that he could have made that "mistake" by accident and not knowing what would happen. The way the pope dealt with it afterwards, and made explanations that nevertheless carefully avoided any real apology, but referred time and again back to the importance of reason in religion, makes me think that it all was going "according to plan." Commentators said the speed by which the Vatican reacted illustrated the importance they saw in the need to adress Muslim protest. I say it was because the answers already was prepared. They probably already had started to wonder what took Muslims two long days before starting to boil hot.

But we agree on that opera. I do not like opera in general, but modern interpretations, as far as I am aware of them by snippets, I find even worse. But the orchestra of my father made a nice CD with Puccini overtures, these are making some fine music for red wine and cooking in the kitchen :)

[Yahoshua]

If your assunmptions are true skybird, thank g-d the Europeans have finally started to wage the culture war before it erupts into armed war.

[The Avon Lady]

these are making some fine music for red wine
Haram!!!!!!! http://www.babynames.com/boards/images/smilies/islam.gif

[Bertgang]

As I heard, we won't see a real censorship on this work; it was just a temporary rethinking, now outdated, as effect of a police/intelligence warning.

Speaking about the director's version of Mozart's work, the "ART" seems safe; speaking about the good old Mozart, anyway, I fear an opposite outcome.

For the little I've seen, this german director is totally out of my taste; his way to artistic freedom is just a different manner to burn disliked flags.
I can blame him for this kind of attitude, as often I blame others for similar things.

[Skybird]

Only German language, but a good piece of comment by someone who simply feels bored by Islam - and the big show we currently make of it (again):


http://www.welt.de/data/2006/09/29/1054978.html


Ich will es einmal wie der fundamentalistische Hesse Roland Koch in brutalstmöglicher Offenheit sagen: Der Islam langweilt mich. Der interreligiöse und -kulturelle Dialog langweilt mich auch. Über was soll man denn sprechen? Die wichtigen Dinge – Freiheit, Gleichheit, Brüderlichkeit, Ess-, Trink- und Liebesgewohnheiten, die Ablehnung jeder Zensur von Bild, Wort und Schrift – sind für mich nicht verhandelbar. Mir ist es egal, ob ein strenggläubiger Muslim dafür Verständnis hat oder nicht, wie er mich beurteilt und ob er mich bekehren will. Umgekehrt bin ich nicht im Geringsten neugierig darauf, warum jemand seine Frau nicht in der Öffentlichkeit küsst, sich an strenge Speisevorschriften hält und wörtlich glaubt, was im Koran steht. Er mag es so halten, aber er muss sich, wenn er in unserem Land leben will, darüber klar sein, dass unsere Gesetze, Schulen, Zeitungen und Filme und Theater keine Rücksicht darauf nehmen, was ihn „verletzen“ oder „beleidigen“ könnte. Er wird Ärger bekommen, wenn er seine Frau schlägt oder seine Töchter gegen ihren Willen verheiraten will. Sehr wohl aber müssen auch gegen seinen Willen seine Töchter am Sport- und Sexualkundeunterricht teilnehmen. Schwer zu verstehen ist es nicht. Wer hierher kommt, muss wissen, worauf er sich einlässt. Ich weiß nicht, was man darüber für einen Dialog führen soll.

[STEED]

When is Europe going to stop bowing down to Islam? I am sick of taking there BS on the chin but when it comes to them you can not upset them in case they start to riot, Islam is using fear against Europe and are leaders are bowing down to it trying to keep the peace. Islam wants to take over the world and kill all of us who do not follow Islam, strange peaceful religion that lives by the sword. :mad:

More Political Correctness that is working for Islam.