What is The Point of Adding AI Jap Subs?

[JordanC]

I think I heard somewhere that AI Japanese subs will be included. What's the point of this? Besides getting lucky and picking one off on the surface, what is the point? To annoy you? The chances of scoring a hit on a submerged boat in WWII were very low, not to mention the max depth of running torpedoes was also low. I think a better choice would be to include friendly US subs, for resupply and help.

Is there any specific reason why Ubi wanted them in?

[Onkel Neal]

I think I heard somewhere that AI Japanese subs will be included. What's the point of this? Besides getting lucky and picking one off on the surface, what is the point? To annoy you? The chances of scoring a hit on a submerged boat in WWII were very low, not to mention the max depth of running torpedoes was also low. I think a better choice would be to include friendly US subs, for resupply and help.

Is there any specific reason why Ubi wanted them in?

Well, where did you hear that?

Last I heard, the inclusion of AI Jap subs has not been determined. Why have them? They were part of the war. US subs were directed to intercept IJN subs all the time. Decoded Japanese messages led the US to sink 19 Japanese subs. And from accounts I've read, US subs had to be very wary of being sunk by Jap subs, too.

[DeepSix]

Second that. Plus there were a number of Japanese subs sunk by U.S. subs. One of the first - if not the first - successful uses of Ultra was the directing of U.S. boats to intercept three IJN subs.

[JU_88]

Whats the point?
Are you crazy? Becaue they were there.
Its like saying there is no point in modelling japanese aircraft carriers because you wont get to sink one unless your very lucky...

Do want to be playing as the only submarine in the whole pacific ocean? do you think its realistic?
Sub vs sub was limited to suface battles (or submerged attcking sufraced) in ww2 , there was only one instance of a british sub sinking a Uboat when both were submerged, still adding I belive AI subs will provide for some interesting, challenging and nail biting combat situations.

Why repeat the mistacks of SH3?

[Drebbel]

Whats the point?
Are you crazy? Becaue they were there.

But the sim is not modeling every that that was there. The dev team has to make choices, I am sure you agree.

So why not choose to skip the AI Jap subs, and their probably complicated AI attack mode code ? That might give them the time to use the resources for another nice feature.

Its like saying there is no point in modelling japanese aircraft carriers because you wont get to sink one unless your very lucky...

I could do without carriers when certain others cool features would be included.

But unfortunately images of large scale surface naval battles (which could be removed from the game for my sake) will probably be a selling point for SHIII, so I am sure they will include all the major surface units.

Do want to be playing as the only submarine in the whole pacific ocean? do you think its realistic?

No that is not realistic. US subs operated in teams a lot. So for realism it would be better to include US AI subs over Jap AI subs.

[DanCanovas]

i have to agree with drebbel here. i think friendly AI support would make for a better experience than another AI enemy unit to shoot at. Ideally we would have both but I think id choose the friendly AI over 1 more enemy unit if faced with the choice.

[JU_88]

Dont you guys get it?
Its not a toss up between Enemy subs or allied ones! Its about having AI subs in the game, or not at all - period.
If you have Sub AI in the game you can have both friendly and enemy subs very easily, since if the code is there is only means making a couple of extra models, not more than a weeks worth of work for a talented max artist.

If all AI routines are in place, it gives us many more possibilities to add addtional units via mods. hell, if they make AI code for subs but dont model any I boats, I'll make them myself.

Sh3's biggest problem was lack of and poor AI, Without any submarine or torpeedo AI it was even impossible to add wolfpack and allied subs via mods, (someone managed it but it was very limited)
IN SH3 There were NO other submarines in the ocean, aircraft were very limited in what type of attacks they conduct, (no rockets or torps) Torpeedo boats and bombers couldnt launch torpeedos either, are you saying you think its fine like that?

I know subs in ww2 weren't designed to hunt other subs, but that just makes it all the more interesting, In actual fact is they did engage each other in combat more often than most people realise.

I dont expect the devs to add EVERYTHING, but a naval sim should contain at the very least AI Ships, submarines and planes.... is that too much to ask? Ive said it many times and Ill say it again, If the devs for enigma rising tide and SH2 managed to code decent enough SUB AI why cant the SHIV dev team do it, these games are really old too! Why are we going backwards in time? :damn:
Sorry if im p1ssed off, I know SHIV isnt being made especially for ME :smug:
Its just that I (and some others) really want AI subs, something I felt ruined SH3 by not be present, so when some of you guys make posts like that (saying thats its no big deal), I get really annoyed as the devs read these boards - so you are basically sealing the fate of Sub AI for SHIV, which is already hanging by a thread. I think is a real shame - but of course you are entitled to your views....

I hope the 'other' features you deem as more important - really are worth the trade off - if the worst happens. :cry:

[Threadfin]

Personally I'm thinking I want them more as something to shoot at me than something for me to shoot at. If you've played Pacific Aces you know what having AI enemy subs adds to the sim. "Torpedo in the water, sir!!" It gives you another dimension to consider.

[JU_88]

Personally I'm thinking I want them more as something to shoot at me than something for me to shoot at. If you've played Pacific Aces you know what having AI enemy subs adds to the sim. "Torpedo in the water, sir!!" It gives you another dimension to consider.

Thank you! :rock:

[DanCanovas]

:up: well to be honest, im not convinced the code is the same for enemy and allied AI subs. they have to behave in very different ways. And I dont think the devs would take the time to do both. As for the existing AI, we should all be very grateful that the AI is improving dramatically. Lets not forget SH2 and compare that to SH3. In SH2 I surfaced, attacked and the allied escort response was to ram each other or go straight to the nearest beach. we've come a long way and will continue to move down the right root, it just takes time and several games. You will never get a perfect sim, lets just give the devs a chance and see what they can do. The mod community can have a go at the rest.

[JU_88]

:up: well to be honest, im not convinced the code is the same for enemy and allied AI subs. they have to behave in very different ways. And I dont think the devs would take the time to do both. As for the existing AI, we should all be very grateful that the AI is improving dramatically. Lets not forget SH2 and compare that to SH3. In SH2 I surfaced, attacked and the allied escort response was to ram each other or go straight to the nearest beach. we've come a long way and will continue to move down the right root, it just takes time and several games. You will never get a perfect sim, lets just give the devs a chance and see what they can do. The mod community can have a go at the rest.

I disagree, Enemy and freindly AI subs would behave exactly the same, just in the same way that, (in sh3) allied and axis planes or destroyers shared the same AI,
The only difference is that they are fighting on different sides. :huh:
There no reason why they would need seperate code what so ever. (aprat from maybe seomthing like an I-400 which would needs to be programed to launch/ spawn aircraft like an AC, that shouldnt be hard though.)

And the more the devs can achieve (esp in terms of programming) - the more the community can create, plain and simple.

[Capt. D]

Last I heard, the inclusion of AI Jap subs has not been determined. Why have them? They were part of the war. US subs were directed to intercept IJN subs all the time. Decoded Japanese messages led the US to sink 19 Japanese subs. And from accounts I've read, US subs had to be very wary of being sunk by Jap subs, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanCanovas
:up: well to be honest, im not convinced the code is the same for enemy and allied AI subs. they have to behave in very different ways. And I dont think the devs would take the time to do both. As for the existing AI, we should all be very grateful that the AI is improving dramatically. Lets not forget SH2 and compare that to SH3. In SH2 I surfaced, attacked and the allied escort response was to ram each other or go straight to the nearest beach. we've come a long way and will continue to move down the right root, it just takes time and several games. You will never get a perfect sim, lets just give the devs a chance and see what they can do. The mod community can have a go at the rest.

I disagree, Enemy and freindly AI subs would behave exactly the same, just in the same way that, (in sh3) allied and axis planes or destroyers shared the same AI,
The only difference is that they are fighting on different sides. :huh:
There no reason why they would need seperate code what so ever. (aprat from maybe seomthing like an I-400 which would needs to be programed to launch/ spawn aircraft like an AC, that shouldnt be hard though.)
And the more the devs can achieve (esp in terms of programming) - the more the community can create, plain and simple.
__________________

I must agree with those pro to this issue. Jap subs were a threat and there were engagements with them - ex. USS Batfish. There has been much talk here and in other threads of what should or should not be in SHIV. The bottom line is the Dev team will be the ones with the final say. I hope, however, that they take a strong look at the comments in this forum on this type of issue. If they wish to give us a sub sim that is the best one yet with as much realism that can be put into the sim they must ensure that a patrol will include possablities that would have been avaliable. Whether through Ultra messages or by accident Jap subs were engaged. We may not need 6, 7, 8 different types of tankers maybe only 4 (a thread is already open on this) but we need to ensure that each and every possiablity of an encounter is allowed and avaliable. Just as we need to ensure most class boats be included (e.g. S-Boats, P class, Salmon class, Tambor, and Gato/Tench at the min.) we need to ensure that most classes of enemy shipping be included and at the Naval side - Jap subs were there and attacked.

I for one could do without the 'Camera" views in SHII and III.:down: Give me what I would see if on my boat through the scope or on deck/bridge/lookout positions. It is nice to see the 'panoramic" views and see me underwater but if anything is not needed that is. Use that space/time to develope for things like AI Jap subs etc.:D

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/adobrauer03/DSCF0353.JPG

All crew present and accounted for sir! USS Silversides ready for patrol! Let's get those tankers, carriers, transports, and subs!

Happu Hunting :ping:

[DanCanovas]

well I dont think Japanese subs need to be programmed to attack convoys and evade escort attack, the US subs will need this extra work. They would have to spend a significant amount of time testing it as well to make sure that A. US subs evaded effectively. B. Didnt ram things C. Surfaced after an attack and not whilst still threatened. D. Would they wait for you or would the system be running multiple AI sub attacks on convoys all over the pacific? E. If they did wait for you they would need work so that they knew when to attack.

I dont feel alot of these issues would be needed for AI Japanese subs.

[JU_88]

well I dont think Japanese subs need to be programmed to attack convoys and evade escort attack, the US subs will need this extra work. They would have to spend a significant amount of time testing it as well to make sure that A. US subs evaded effectively. B. Didnt ram things C. Surfaced after an attack and not whilst still threatened. D. Would they wait for you or would the system be running multiple AI sub attacks on convoys all over the pacific? E. If they did wait for you they would need work so that they knew when to attack.

I dont feel alot of these issues would be needed for AI Japanese subs.

Ok one last time....

This is how it works....

The devs will write ONE AI script for surface warships....
and apply it to ALL warships in the game

The devs will write ONE AI script for aircraft....
and apply it to ALL planes in the game

The devs 'MIGHT' write ONE AI script for submarines....
and apply it to both US and IJN Submarines (if they include them)

Now then, why would they write complex smart AI for US submarines
then edit it down to some basic AI for IJN subs? that makes no sense does it?
A submarine is a submarine and behaves like one no matter what its nationality.

AI is not written from scratch for each indervidual unit, once you have written code for one type of submarine, you simply copy and paste that same code and apply it to all the other submarines in the game..... do you follow?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, the question for the devs is, do they invest time writing AI for submarines, and have computer controlled subs in the game at all? (for either side or both, it makes no difference - apart from having to do the 3D modelling.)

OR

Do they skip Sub AI like they did in SH3, so that the player will be once again the only lone submarine in the whole ocean, and instead invest the programmers time elsewhere.

[DanCanovas]

great so either the US subs will not attack merchant shipping or the japanese will attack their own merchant shipping, i dont think its as simple as you make out. I think your getting confused with sub vs sub warfare. dont forget there will be other thing involved in this game.

I really dont find the idea of having AI enemy subs as excitable as you. ok it would be ok, but id rather they spent their time elsewhere. In a game where success is measured in tonnage (renown) id rather save my eels for something that weighs a little more.

You make it sound like there were regular submarine vs submarine engagements and that it was a major factor and Im afraid it wasnt, definately not enough to include at the cost of something else.

[JordanC]

Dont you guys get it?
Its not a toss up between Enemy subs or allied ones! Its about having AI subs in the game, or not at all - period.
If you have Sub AI in the game you can have both friendly and enemy subs very easily, since if the code is there is only means making a couple of extra models, not more than a weeks worth of work for a talented max artist.

If all AI routines are in place, it gives us many more possibilities to add addtional units via mods. hell, if they make AI code for subs but dont model any I boats, I'll make them myself.

Sh3's biggest problem was lack of and poor AI, Without any submarine or torpeedo AI it was even impossible to add wolfpack and allied subs via mods, (someone managed it but it was very limited)
IN SH3 There were NO other submarines in the ocean, aircraft were very limited in what type of attacks they conduct, (no rockets or torps) Torpeedo boats and bombers couldnt launch torpeedos either, are you saying you think its fine like that?

I know subs in ww2 weren't designed to hunt other subs, but that just makes it all the more interesting, In actual fact is they did engage each other in combat more often than most people realise.

I dont expect the devs to add EVERYTHING, but a naval sim should contain at the very least AI Ships, submarines and planes.... is that too much to ask? Ive said it many times and Ill say it again, If the devs for enigma rising tide and SH2 managed to code decent enough SUB AI why cant the SHIV dev team do it, these games are really old too! Why are we going backwards in time? :damn:
Sorry if im p1ssed off, I know SHIV isnt being made especially for ME :smug:
Its just that I (and some others) really want AI subs, something I felt ruined SH3 by not be present, so when some of you guys make posts like that (saying thats its no big deal), I get really annoyed as the devs read these boards - so you are basically sealing the fate of Sub AI for SHIV, which is already hanging by a thread. I think is a real shame - but of course you are entitled to your views....

I hope the 'other' features you deem as more important - really are worth the trade off - if the worst happens. :cry:

Am I crazy? No. So, if their are AI Jap subs, we will rarely see them, and if we do, nothing will happen. It would dive, we would dive, and a stupid little game of cat and mouse at 5kts would ensue. I know they were there, and they played a large role in the war against the US, but for game reasons, it's just a waste of the Dev's time. They should be adding US subs, for re-supply and stuff.

[JU_88]

great so either the US subs will not attack merchant shipping or the japanese will attack their own merchant shipping.

No, it wouldnt work like that, you still dont get it do you?.......

Seriously dude I give up, i dont care what AI subs we get, just so long as we get some AI for them - period, the comminity can add more if they want.

:arrgh!:

[Drebbel]

No, it wouldnt work like that, you still dont get it do you?.......

Please be polite to eachother, being rude is not one of the requirements needed before you are allowed to post in this forum !

I assume people simply mean that different AI code is needed for a AI allied sub than for an AI enemy sub. Just as allied surface ships use different AI code than enemy surface ships.

Drebbel (with my moderator hat on)

[DanCanovas]

I agree with JordanC here but ill not continue on a thread until JU88 learns some forum etiquette. Its a supposed to be for discussion and debate mate, if you want furious fast sub vs sub action then try Battlefield 2.

[JU_88]

Im sorry guys, I just was trying to explain somthing to you, and ended up repeating myself several times, you know how that can be frustrating.
Still I was rude and that was uncalled for, so please accept my appologies DanCanovas. :oops: Im sorry for flying off the handle mate, no offence intended.

[DanCanovas]

no worries. I understand we all want different things from our next sim and the funny thing is, none of us will probably get it :rotfl: anyhow, thats why we have the mod teams. all we do know is that SH4 is sure to learn from and SH3 and improve upon it.

[CB..]

the problem is perhaps that whilst we are posing the thought that having different AI for different countrys and types of subs ..the actual porblem will be wether there is any AI routines AT ALL...would that we were discusing and complaining about the behaviour of the jap subs not being accurate...(imagining for a second the game has allready been released etc) would that the AI routines were that advanced! the real ball breaker here is that we are having a discussion about the inclusion of the sub AI full stop...at all...it would be a huge leap forward from here to be worrying about the AI in such detail that a discussion about jap sub tactics or even dare i say it jap destroyer tactics was even relevant or possible...when we perhaps are all resign to the fact that as with SH3 the enemy AI will behave like a sniffer dog at an airport security terminal any resemblance to a ww2 japanese convoy escort will be enitirely down the fact that it will look like a ww2 jap vessel not a small furry animal

[joea]

Umm didn't SHII have AI subs? British, US and French IIRC? I did torpedo a Tommy sub in the Med in the original SHII campaign I am sure of that. Don't recall ever being attacked by an AI sub though. I do remember there was a tweak for the AI subs in DC that made them much more agressive.

[JU_88]

the problem is perhaps that whilst we are posing the thought that having different AI for different countrys and types of subs ..the actual porblem will be wether there is any AI routines AT ALL...would that we were discusing and complaining about the behaviour of the jap subs not being accurate...(imagining for a second the game has allready been released etc) would that the AI routines were that advanced! the real ball breaker here is that we are having a discussion about the inclusion of the sub AI full stop...at all...it would be a huge leap forward from here to be worrying about the AI in such detail that a discussion about jap sub tactics or even dare i say it jap destroyer tactics was even relevant or possible...when we perhaps are all resign to the fact that as with SH3 the enemy AI will behave like a sniffer dog at an airport security terminal any resemblance to a ww2 japanese convoy escort will be enitirely down the fact that it will look like a ww2 jap vessel not a small furry animal

Thas exactly the point Ive been trying to put across. So long as subs are programed to with at least basic behaivor / Ai routines, community members like my self can probably model and import different submarine classes, weather they be US british, IJN or what ever, but if they go down the same road as SH3 and not create Ai for subs at all, any non human controled subs will just sit there doing absolutey nothing.

Thats the real debate weather subs will do anything without a human at the controls or not.

Going back to AI, here is a good example of how it works
In SH3 the German Bismark battleship uses IDENTICAL AI to say -the British Revenge Battleship, only each unit is placed under different nations so they automatically know which ships are enemy and which are freindly.

If for example, I were to 'cut and paste' the German Bismarks data from the 'Germany' frolder and paste in to the 'Britain' folder in SH3, the Bismark would instantly become a british Unit and attack German Shipping, thats how simple it is to tell which units to attack what.
If you dont belive me try it out for your self.

There is no special code that needs to be applied to indervidual units to tell them what nations to attack - the code for that is applied to all units within one nations folder, I hope this clears up any confusion. :up:

[Threadfin]

So, if their are AI Jap subs, we will rarely see them, and if we do, nothing will happen. It would dive, we would dive, and a stupid little game of cat and mouse at 5kts would ensue. I know they were there, and they played a large role in the war against the US, but for game reasons, it's just a waste of the Dev's time. They should be adding US subs, for re-supply and stuff.

I disagree, respectfully, of course :)

Maybe you are submerged, and the enemy is surfaced? Anyhoo, what do you mean subs for re-supply and stuff? Like a Milk Cow?

[DanCanovas]

US subs have to attack organised merchant shipping and evade...Japanese subs dont.

[_Seth_]

I'm looking forward to the GW dev. team gets their hands on SHIV.....:rock:
What would they call a SHIV mod like that (like "Grey wolfes" for SHIII)? Not grey wolves, maybe "The pink Starfish" Mod, "The stinging stingrays" mod, or maybe the
"in the navy" mod...:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

No disrespect, GW dev's!!