How many Japanese Tanker classes for SHIV?

[AG124]

I decided to start a different type of poll, as merchant ships will continue to be important in the Pacific Theatre.

I would personally like to see four Japanese tanker classes in SHIV.
- One class of those 906 grt coastal tankers.
- One class of small tankers around 3-5,000 grt.
- One class of larger tankers around 7-8,000 grt.
- One class of extra-large tankers around 13-15,000 grt

In SHI, there were only two classes of tanker - the 906 grt coastal tankers, and a huge 18,100 ton class. There was also a ~5,000 ton Converted Factory Ship, but I thought that selection was unsatisfactory.

[CCIP]

You know what? To hell with more tanker classes in general - we need more commercial ship classes, period! :yep:

One cool feature that the devs could potentially make is a system which could randomize the ships more - say, by randomizing some items of the superstructure to make it look like you're popping a different ship each time :hmm:

[AG124]

Yes we do, particularly troop transports. There has never been a modern (i.e.post AOD subsim with satisfactory troopships:

AOD - Only two classes, both of which were identical (except one was longer and had two funnels).

SHI - Only one class, although very good looking.

SHII - Only two classes - Passenger Liner and Troop Transport. At least they were good models by SHII standards.

SHIII - Same as SHII, but the passenger liner looks like something from the 1950s.:nope:

I was also really disappionted by the tanker classes in SHII, and the Fast Transport looked like a modern cargo vessel. The Slow Cargo looked too boxy and modern, at least the bridge, but the Small Cargo was good (it is actually identical to the SHIII Small Merchant if you look closely, only less detailed of course). Freighter selection was better in AOD, SHI, and SHIII (although in SHIII we got too many mass-produced wartime freighters - generic vessels should have been used in place of the C2 and C3).

CCIP, I like your randomized parts idea, but I don't know if it would be workable. Also, it would interfere with the recognition book images. I don't think we can hope for something on that level. I would just hope for a better overall selection myself.

[CCIP]

At the least, I think there needs to be a good cross-section by eras and sizes for cargo ships - even by decade from, say, 1900 to 1940s. It's a little bit irritating seeing the same C2s and C3s as the only medium-large merchants in SHIII, I would really appreciate some older merchants there.

Four classes of tankers is more or less what we got once we had the Coastal Tanker modded into SHIII. I personally would add at least a couple of variations (even if they're knockoffs from the same basic models) on small and medium tankers in the game. They really shouldn't be terribly difficult to kitbash for the devs.

Well, all wishful thinking, but I honestly hope that this time the devs don't spare effort on commercial ships too much. I honestly don't mind if they simply re-use the SHIII kit to put together more rough (SHIII-level) but varied models.

[AG124]

The Coastal Merchant and Small Merchant and even the Tugboat (and maybe the Small Coastal Vessel) could be modified to appear Japanese, but Troop Transports and Tankers would have to be built from scratch obviously. I like the way you are thinking though....:hmm:

[iambecomelife]

IMO the more the merrier. My only concern is that there aren't too many classes of large tankers (between, say, 9000-14000 grt) since that would skew randomly-generated encounters and inflate the average skipper's tonnage. Like the Scandinavians the Japanese tended to produce beautifully streamlined tankers, especially during the 30's and 40's - it would be a real treat to see them in SHIV.

Regarding older subsims, I have always liked the AOD merchant models and tonnage system, which were innovative for their time. SH2 was hit or miss; the T-2 was excellent, and the generic tanker OK. I couldn't stand the fast cargo-why on earth would you put the bridge behind the funnel? The slow cargo was OK but not a good stand-in for medium freighters of the era because of the big superstructure (like passenger ships).

The vessel feature randomization idea is excellent - it would add tremendously to replay value. With a little work there could be rules inserted so that all the features would look appropriate - for instance, tall, thin funnels and sparse bridgework on older ships, shorter smokestacks on modern motor vessels, and so forth.

Unfortunately based on the screenshots SHIV seems to focus for the most part on "exciting" vessels like battleships and heavy cruisers. This isn't appropriate b/c even in the Pacific the main goal was to starve the home islands into submission, not to hunt down individual fleet units. In fact, by the end of the war many of Japan's largest warships were essentially worthless b/c of poor crew training, accumulated battle damage, and (especially in the case of carriers) inadequate aircraft. OTOH, the larger merchant vessels from Japan's major shipping lines (Daido, NYK Line, Yama****a Line) were worth their weight in gold THROUGHOUT the war.

IIRC there are to be 70 combat units in all for the game (air and sea). Considering all the planes and warships that need to be included, I fear we're going to end up with a small, repetitive sampling of merchant ships. :nope: AOD's over a decade old and we're still stuck with "Big Merchant, Average Merchant, Little Merchant". In fact SH3 was a step backward from AOD in that there was no tonnage randomization for generic ships.

Anyway, enough whining from me. :oops: Hopefully it will be easy for SHIV modders to add new classes.

[Steeltrap]

They could simply look in Dick O'Kane's Wahoo as it provides actual details of ships sunk straight from the recognition manuals current at the time.....

[elanaiba]

Unfortunately based on the screenshots SHIV seems to focus for the most part on "exciting" vessels like battleships and heavy cruisers. This isn't appropriate b/c even in the Pacific the main goal was to starve the home islands into submission, not to hunt down individual fleet units. In fact, by the end of the war many of Japan's largest warships were essentially worthless b/c of poor crew training, accumulated battle damage, and (especially in the case of carriers) inadequate aircraft. OTOH, the larger merchant vessels from Japan's major shipping lines (Daido, NYK Line, Yama****a Line) were worth their weight in gold THROUGHOUT the war.


I think you're judging a little too much based on just a couple of screenshots. Would you like the game to ship without warships, without battles taking place in the Pacific?

Do you know what ratio of merchants to warships is modelled?

The main goal, at the start of the war, was not to starve the Japanese - even though that would have been the wise thing to do. In fact, many times the subs were sent to hunt elusive ULTRA intercepts concerning major warship units, detailed to special ops or laid in wait/recon for enemy fleet movements.

And please, tell me of one captain that would have given away the chance to sink a warship, to save torpedoes for merchants? I know of none.

[ecm747x]

I wonder if the CV Shinano will be in SH4? That would be cool. A 68,059 ton carrier. I read the book, sorry don't remember the authors name, and it was an excellent display of seaman ship to sink that big bastage. The Archerfish was the sub that sank her in 1944

[Sailor Steve]

The Japanese were smart enough to group the big, fast military tankers together, so they could make a fast 18-knot convoy...sometimes. Other times they put them in with all the other, slower ships. I would like to see as many different ship types as possible.

[nematode]

I'd like to see a variety of tanker types too. I remember from the SHI days after sinking what felt like too many 18k tankers thinking pretty much the same thing that AG124 points out in the OP, and back then I did some looking thru Silent Victory to learn that the Japanese never made very many of the huge tankers, like about a dozen? Converted whale oil factories? Something like that.

I don't mind an 18k tanker in SHIV but it should be rare as hens teeth, a once in a career opportunity like an ocean liner or a BB are in SHIII. Too many huge targets lessens the experience for me.

What I hope to see in day to day play in SHIV are targets representative of what was out there in substantial numbers, and has been pointed out upthread, a typical large tanker was 9-12k tons (example Grider's 1944 patrol in Flasher) and lots of smaller stuff.

[AG124]

Japanese freighters especially were smaller than most freighters used in the Atlantic. Or at least, that's the impression that I have...

One large class of Japanese Tanker should be alright for SHIV, as long as it is balanced by a greater number of much smaller tankers.IIRC there are to be 70 combat units in all for the game (air and sea). Considering all the planes and warships that need to be included, I fear we're going to end up with a small, repetitive sampling of merchant ships. :nope: AOD's over a decade old and we're still stuck with "Big Merchant, Average Merchant, Little Merchant". In fact SH3 was a step backward from AOD in that there was no tonnage randomization for generic ships.
I have the sad feeling that you are going to be right about that.:nope: Although a good warship selection will be important too - SHIII failed there as well.

AOD had probably the worst warship selection of any subsim, now that I think about it. Only UK warships (except for US transfers), including only 1 fleet carrier and no CAs.:nope:

SHI was actually pretty good - all Japanese BBs and almost all CV's were included (omitted - Hosho, Hiryu, Chitose class, Kaiyo, Shinyo). Plus all CAs, and most CLs (except for Katori class, Yubari, and I think Oyodo and Tenryu classes?). Good collection of DD's as well.

SHII, for the most part, had a good selection. With the level of the rosters they included, they could have modeled more French and Italian vessels though. Also, the British BB selection was terrible - No KGV or Nelson classes. And although the Ark Royal was included, the carrier selection was nothing to get excited about.

When SHIII came out, I really hoped that they would get it right this time but they didn't. I am mostly satisfied with the BB selection, but once again, the carrier selection was limited to one. I was also less satisfied with the cruiser selection than I have ever been with any other subsim.

The one good thing about all of that though, is that the only pevious Pacific Subsim had the most complete warship collection. Not binding though...:88)

[CCIP]

Yea, even SHIII suffered from the 'warship syndrome' - but what to be surprised about? Look at the modded ships that have mostly been released as of now, even. It seems there's simply more interest in modelling the big pretty ships than the ugly practical ships :hmm: You two (AG124 and iambecomelife) are among our few saving exceptions :p

What I might hope for is that perhaps SHIV will finally provide a more open kit for modders to implement new ships quickly.


Still, let's keep all possibilities open. It may well be that even with most effort going to warships, there will still be a fair variety of simple merchants.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Id like to see some fleet tankers.

[JU_88]

I think its obviouse that people will vote for 5+ tankers, given the poll options.... :D

[iambecomelife]

Unfortunately based on the screenshots SHIV seems to focus for the most part on "exciting" vessels like battleships and heavy cruisers. This isn't appropriate b/c even in the Pacific the main goal was to starve the home islands into submission, not to hunt down individual fleet units. In fact, by the end of the war many of Japan's largest warships were essentially worthless b/c of poor crew training, accumulated battle damage, and (especially in the case of carriers) inadequate aircraft. OTOH, the larger merchant vessels from Japan's major shipping lines (Daido, NYK Line, Yama****a Line) were worth their weight in gold THROUGHOUT the war.


I think you're judging a little too much based on just a couple of screenshots. Would you like the game to ship without warships, without battles taking place in the Pacific?

Do you know what ratio of merchants to warships is modelled?

The main goal, at the start of the war, was not to starve the Japanese - even though that would have been the wise thing to do. In fact, many times the subs were sent to hunt elusive ULTRA intercepts concerning major warship units, detailed to special ops or laid in wait/recon for enemy fleet movements.

And please, tell me of one captain that would have given away the chance to sink a warship, to save torpedoes for merchants? I know of none.

Of course I want warships. It would be unrealistic to have a game without them. It is also unrealistic to focus on them to the point where the sinking of enemy merchant shipping is secondary. That's the sort of attitude consistent with Japanese sub doctrine, not that of the Americans (especially from perhaps 1943 onwards, as Japanese merchant losses began to climb). Even in the Pacific most victims of submarines would have been civilian vessels. The largest navies of WWII only had perhaps a dozen or so battleships and several dozen heavy cruisers. A typical merchant marine, OTOH, was comprised of hundreds or thousands of merchantmen. Since we are much more likely to encounter cargo ships (assuming the game is to be historically accurate) I would like to see lots of effort directed towards modeling them. At the very least I want it to be easy to add large numbers of generic, community-produced ships.

[bookworm_020]

Even if they didn't add as many as we want when the game is released, it would be nice to have them leave an opening for modders to come in and add extra ships, planes and so forth.

It would help promote the game to others and more would come interested in the game itself.

[iambecomelife]

Even if they didn't add as many as we want when the game is released, it would be nice to have them leave an opening for modders to come in and add extra ships, planes and so forth.

It would help promote the game to others and more would come interested in the game itself.

It would be a HUGE help if they released a program that let you observe in real time the movement of a ship's various sub-components. Right now the main obstacle to modding ships is how long it takes to align the masts, funnels, and other parts properly so that nothing's off center, floating in midair, etc. I have to input XYZ coordinates in Pack3d, run a mission to observe the changes, and then alt-tab to get back into Pack3d over and over again. The actual modeling work in Wings3d takes very little time.

[AG124]

I suffer from the same issue - lifeboats and vents are the most frustrating and boring parts to move.:damn:

[Danelov]

About Japanese tankers utilised in WWII I have posted today(29-09-06)a new post with the main types utilised. Good reading.