Why it would be better to Command Japanese Subs [Archive]

SubConscious

09-09-06, 08:36 PM

Reasons why it would be better to command Japanese submarines in the WWII Pacific Theater:

1. Your primary targets are capital ships. Sure sinking merchants is fun, but battleships, cruisers, and aircraft carriers are far more interesting. The US Navy also has a LOT of available targets, with more being built throughout the war years. Forget convoys - How much fun would it be to try to thwart an invasion force?

2. It’s more challenging to play on the losing side. To me, it’s more fun to play on the side of the underdog than the sure winner.

3. The potential significance of an individual’s effort would be greater on the Japanese side. This can obviously be debated, but the point I’m trying to make here is that when playing on the side of the Allies, the numeric and technological superiority obtained once the war industry got into full swing essentially made the outcome a given. In contrast, a single Japanese submarine commander could conceivably delay the defeat of Japan to a significant degree by taking out the American aircraft carriers.

4. The possibility of still using your favorite German U-Boat (no need to change that multi-layer sig!).

5. There are further opportunities to sink British ships for those die-hard sore losers.

6. We’d have the opportunity to learn a little Japanese (well, at least the phrases commonly heard on I-boats).

7. Those spiffy chrysanthemums on the front of the conning tower.

8. The “Long Lance” Torpedo: Reportedly one of the best, if not the best, of the war.

9. Finally some new music on the gramophone!

10. Hot anime pin-ups in the Sonar/Radio room.

Please feel free to add to this list. ;)

(I realize that SH IV is already set for American subs. I'm gearing up for SH V or maybe SH VI. ;))

Just in case you're curious about these subs: http://www.combinedfleet.com/sensuikan.htm

jpinard

09-09-06, 08:54 PM

An expansion pack to play as the Japanese would indeed be fantastic. I'd be happy to pay up for an exp with this as an option.

Wilko

09-10-06, 12:22 AM

While I agree some would like it, me..

I would never do it, couldn't do it, goes against me in some deep way, funny I can play the german side fine but just thought of the Japanese side...

TDK1044

09-10-06, 09:46 AM

The German U boats were feared and repected; the Japanese subs were considered a danger, but not on the same level. I think that a lot of subsimmmers would really like to play as a Japanese sub Captain, but most of the other 97 percent of the purchasing market would be far less interested.

JU_88

09-10-06, 01:43 PM

Im fine with american subs, but I really hope Japanese I boats make an appearance.
Get this: SH2 and Enigma rising tide had AI subs, SH3 did not - ok so they were pushed for time what with the dynamic campaign. But if they cant manage to write some basic code and create some a few I boat models for SHIV That will be really backwards!:huh:

Check out my new sig

Sailor Steve

09-10-06, 02:15 PM

11. Four years of war without ever seeing an enemy ship.

12. A career of almost exclusively supply missions.

No, thanks (well, maybe as an add-on).

jpinard

09-10-06, 08:10 PM

11. Four years of war without ever seeing an enemy ship.

12. A career of almost exclusively supply missions.

No, thanks (well, maybe as an add-on).

Well it doens't have to be exactly historically accurate. sheesh

Torplexed

09-10-06, 08:23 PM

Well it doens't have to be exactly historically accurate. sheesh
Funny. That's the biggest complaint about SH3.

jpinard

09-10-06, 08:34 PM

Well it doens't have to be exactly historically accurate. sheesh
Funny. That's the biggest complaint about SH3.

Well the best someone can hope for is if the die-hard grognards have nothing better to do than look at empty ocean for 5 hours a night real-time... then they can cater to those of us that actually want engagements at a rate that means we can still do something with our lives. Realism Settings = Good :)

nikimcbee

09-11-06, 01:45 AM

An expansion pack to play as the Japanese would indeed be fantastic. I'd be happy to pay up for an exp with this as an option.

Ditto:up: Guadalcanal and the Indian Ocean would make great campaigns (maybe US Westcoast operations). The rest of the time would be a waste (running supplies).

CB..

09-11-06, 05:05 AM

given the tremendous variety and sheer interest of the jap subs ..i would find it fascinating to play as a Jap if for no other reason than to experience life "from the other side" even if only in a game....the gameplay issues aside the atmosphere and opportunity to explore the historical details of the japanese submarine fleet and it's men and activitys would be something valuable and offers something new...allright few ordinary gamers would be attracted to the game but as an expansion pack it would have an unique slant....

DaMaGe007

09-11-06, 05:36 AM

JU_88

09-11-06, 10:34 AM

I would be disapointed if they dont have AI submarines this time around, but then again did they engage each other much underwater in those days ? Homing torps werent really around till the end of the war...
IF there were engagements and sinkings they should definatly have them.

as for playing the Japanease I think there is some fun to be had, even for suply missions, part of the draw of submarines is stealth and getting away, and it would certinly be alot harder ASW to compete against. I doubt very much there will be an expansion to add the Japanease side. Pity.

They didnt engage each other under water, but they would have done on the surface... or 1 submerged sub could torpeedo a surfaced one, you could try attacking a submerged one with Hydrophones but it would be near impossible....
Still i think it would had a whole you aspect to the game - a third type of threat in addition to planes and escorts. What would you do if if you knew an I boat was submerged withinbg a 1000 meters of your sub??? Personally I dont know, but it would be pretty scary.

CB..

09-12-06, 06:03 AM

AI jap subs....there's no point even taking for granted the idea that AI aircraft will be available --at least in terms that make sense...Kamakazis for example..now then jap subs launching seaplanes ....jap subs rendevouzing with refueling aircraft....downed pilots...all those important little details that make life interesting and unpredictable...as we have come to expect will no doubt be absent ...(the aircraft in SH3 are truly truly awfull...think they used the seagul AI for them..they execute manuevers that would rip the wings of even a areobatic aircraft let alone a lumbering bomber)..sigh..the game will look great tho no doubt...well whoop de do...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

every time i buy and play a new game--- i get a strange feeling that monopoly cluedo..escape from colditz and endless other casual board games had more depth more replayability and he he better graphics too..im getting tired of the techno-fetish approach a game is a game is a game there are well established rules that govern gameplay--sadly they have been relugated to the "cheesy" bin

JU_88

09-12-06, 11:59 AM

I dont get it, Enigma RT and SH2 had decent enough AI submarines, Yet SH3 didnt and SH4 might not, why are we going backwards? Is it really so hard to code a submarines behaviour? :dead:

SubConscious

09-12-06, 12:49 PM

I'm hoping for more variety in the missions as well. While I find sinking merchant ships enjoyable, I'd love to try to support / thwart an invasion, get assigned to a harbor raid (e.g., Pearl Harbor), and even the occasional pilot rescue or supply mission would be a welcome change.

The primary impetus behind starting this thread was simply of this desire for variety: I don't think I've ever seen a Japanese submarine simulator.

Two events come readily to mind: The sinking of the U.S.S. Indianapolis after it delivered the atomic bomb (what if they had sank it on the outbound trip?) and the U.S.S. Hammann, a destroyer. The Hammann was lashed to the Yorktown during the Battle of Midway, as the Yorktown was listing badly after having been struck by bombs. A Japanese sub saw this target of opportunity and sank both ships. My father was on the Hammann (he survived, or I wouldn't be here to type this).

Variety - the spice of life (just don't try to use this logic while trying to explain the presence of your girlfriend to your wife). ;)

ook

09-12-06, 01:48 PM

And we could have I-400 sub... ahhh!

Saukko

09-12-06, 02:55 PM

As a Japanese we could sneak in Los Angeles or San Francisco harbor, anyone remember movie "1941", directed by Steven Spielberg.

Heck, for this reason alone, I want Japanese submarines: :D
10. Hot anime pin-ups in the Sonar/Radio room.

I-25

09-18-06, 12:54 PM

Incubus

11-29-06, 03:49 PM

I agree with what other people have said. A Japanese sub campaign would have a lot more variety than other nations:

1. Operating as the forward element of the Kido Butai. Early war you could participate in famous battles like Coral Sea and Midway (imagine having a huge dogfight going on right above your head! There would be lots of big targets but also lots of danger since there would be TONS of DDs and aircraft everywhere.

2. Someone mentioned the long lance wasn't moutned in sub tubes but there was a sub torpedo far superior to allied counterparts. The Japanese used pure oxygen instead of compressed air, giving their fish a lot more range. The warheads were also heavier, meaning you have a boat with more range and more punch.

3. Sending supplies/troops in Guadalcanal and other places. People complain that would be boring until you realize that the allies had a hardon for stopping the Tokyo express, US ASW is far superior to IJN ASW, so every patrol would be like running a gauntlet of enemy ships. Plotting your course, and managing fuel/batteries would become really crucial.

4. Unique submarine types and weapons. See a fast-moving CL off in the distance? cram Bernard-san into a Kaiten (human-operated torpedo) and send him off! Also having supply/midget subs would be interesting as well.

5. Propiganda/morale missions, like shelling Los Angeles harbor and trying to set the oil tanks on fire (or just scaring them into THINKING they're under attack) or having a sub carrier launch a seaplane to firebomb some real estate in Oregon.

6. Rendezvous missions with German U-boats to exchange critical information about technologies/nuclear secrets.

Sulikate

11-29-06, 04:32 PM

An expansion pack to play as the Japanese would indeed be fantastic. I'd be happy to pay up for an exp with this as an option.
Agreed.

TheSatyr

11-29-06, 10:13 PM

Biggest reason you will never see a Japanese subsim is the sheer number of RO and I classes.

SH3 and SH4 both have just 4 sub types and I would expect the same for any other SH game in the future...and how in the world would you ever decide on 4 classes of I type and RO type subs?

Another reason why they would never do it is that it wouldn't sell enough units to even pay for the work they would have to put into it,and companies don't make a product if they know it isn't going to sell.

An SH based on British subs might sell enough to at least break even,but again...it comes down to which 4 sub types you'd put into the game.

zaza

11-30-06, 08:50 AM

I would like to play IJN submarine even I pay extra money.
Please please UBI, please make IJN submarine add on in someday.

I think, one reason why we cant play IJN submarine on any sub simulation is
in Japan there is no real IJN submarine left unfortunately.
Only some midget sub and "kaiten" have left.
And hard to find photo, plans, movie , etc....

I read some book who wrote real IJN submarine crew.
It is very very interesting mission.

Supply to Isolated island in south pacific with supply sub which dosent have
any torpedo tube ,goes to America for bombing mission.
Goes to Germany from Japan to exchange some material,
bring kaiten to danger area ,they couldnt dive to deep because
not to broke kaiten....

I-go class.....over 1000 tons
Ro-go class.....over 500tons ~ 1000 tons
Ha-go class.....less 500 tons

Oh by the way, everyone see the thread what I posted on Japanese forum?
I found part of documentary movie "gochin" (which taken in ww2) on Youtube.
You can see real I-10 or some Kaidai class IJN sub.
enjoy !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqm7ULHfSU8

tonibamestre

11-30-06, 09:56 AM

Yes!! I really think an expansion about jap subs is required after SH4 release,this working together with a better 24h online server for multiplayer play.This would allow us to make long and detailed missions,not just join into some session for 1 hour.

Later,we ll see if people from Ubi surprise us with a new sim,implementing the Skipjack,Sturgeon,George Washington class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_class_submarine),Benjamin Franklin class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin_class_submarine) ,Resolution class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resolution_class_submarine) ,Hotel class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotel_class_submarine) ,Yankee II class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_class_submarine) ,
Delta II class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_class_submarine) ,etc.

Best regards.

_Seth_

11-30-06, 11:51 AM

I would gladly pay for an SHIV addon like this.:yep: It will bring more realism to the game.

BTW: I dont exclude the tought that the future SHV will be concentrated around IJN in WWII or the allied submarine fleet in the Atlantic theatre.

bookworm_020

11-30-06, 05:04 PM

I'd love to patrol of the Australian coast sinking ships, laying mines, shore bombarments and sending midgets off to hit Sydney harbour. I would pay for it as a add on!:up:

nightdagger

11-30-06, 11:36 PM

cram Bernard-san into a Kaiten (human-operated torpedo) and send him off!
Someone took my idea.

_Seth_

12-01-06, 07:05 AM

An IJN-addon: Is that possibly something that the freeware modders can make, or does it have to be made by Ubisoft, considering hard coding etc.?

Harry Buttle

12-01-06, 09:50 PM

zaza

12-01-06, 11:08 PM

Sink as many US carriers as you please, you won't change the course of the war one iota.

US subs took out 50% of the Jap merchant navy, air delivered mines did most of the rest.

The US slowed down carrier production late in the war as they were no longer neccessary.

IJN doctrine, equipment, culture and training all made sure that the IJN subs were utterly ineffective.

Yeah may be you right. But I want play IJN submarine:yep:
I think same thing in sh3. We cant change the course of the war.
And German doctrine, equipment ineffective etc..... the same thing.
But you play sh3 and enjoy , isnt it?

Ask yourself this, when you request that Ubi finance a boring niche market expansion - would you bet your house that it will break even? because you are asking Ubi to bet a lot more than that and if it fails (and it would) that might be the end of the Silent Hunter franchise.

Yes, also you are right if it is true.
I see forum in Japan,many people want to play as IJN side,
I think If it will sell,it going to big hit at least in Japan :roll:

Even if UBI will not sell add on,
I hope UBI to release technical code for making add on.....
Then we can make add on and some soft maker can make for sell add on:smug:

Albrecht Von Hesse

12-02-06, 12:01 AM

Pants

12-02-06, 01:02 AM

I dont care what side i'm on TBH i just want a target rich environment:up:
I must admit though, driving a jap sub does allow you to sink more ships than being a US sub driver ( because the allies had more ships ) more ships = more to sink.:arrgh!:
Look what the U-boat arm accomplished in a target rich environment.
I know in RL jap subs were not as efficient as it's counterparts, but i dont care, i just wanna sink Sh1t LOL :rotfl:

Harry Buttle

12-03-06, 06:02 PM

I see forum in Japan,many people want to play as IJN side,
I think If it will sell,it going to big hit at least in Japan :roll:

No. some people in an internet forum want it (ie a small subset of a small subset of the market). I note nobody has said that they would happily put their own money into the project.

and if there is one thing you can guarantee it is that it would not sell well in Japan. they don't want to remember, or be reminded of, what they did in WW2.

Hopefully it can be modded in for either those who like playing on arcade settings or those who enjoy the 'you got sunk' screen - but I'd hate to see Ubi waste one second of dev time on such a pointless excercise.

zaza

12-04-06, 06:31 AM

No. some people in an internet forum want it (ie a small subset of a small subset of the market). I note nobody has said that they would happily put their own money into the project.

and if there is one thing you can guarantee it is that it would not sell well in Japan. they don't want to remember, or be reminded of, what they did in WW2.

Yeah of course I understand what you point.But,,,,
Hmmm I am not good enlgish speaker
so hard to explain what I want say to you....

By the way "they don't want to remember, or be reminded of, what they did in WW2."
I think it is shame as Japanese, young people in Japan forget
when the war begin, when the war end, which country fighting with...
What only they know is we lost the war.Some younger doenst
even know we had a war......

Or you want say Japanese did bad thing,so we want to remember or be reminded,,,,?
If I harm your feeling I am sorry.

VON_CAPO

12-04-06, 11:09 AM

Message to UBI:

I request immediate deployment of 2 Expansion Packs:
1.- Imperial Japanese Navy Addon
2.- Kriegsmarine Addon

A lot of us will pay $CASH$ for them. :|\\

EDIT: To play the winner, stronger and nice side is soooooooo bored. :arrgh!:
Also it lacks the mystic of the U-boats. :stare:
So, surely I will buy SH4, but I will be happy when a worthy opponent appears.
I mean, an addon which permit to play the other side. :yep::yep::yep:

12-05-06, 01:37 PM

Enough with the IJN Sub sim request please, they were irrelevent in the second world war.

Given their size, range, speed, and torpedoes, Japanese submarines achieved surprisingly little. This was because they were mainly employed against warships, which were fast, maneuverable, and well-defended when compared to merchant ships. Japanese naval doctrine was built around the concept of fighting a single decisive battle, as they had done at Tsushima 40 years earlier. They thought of their submarines as scouts, whose main role was to locate, shadow, and attack Allied naval task forces.

Compared to German submarines, Japan's huge boats were relatively easy to sight visually and with radar, slow to dive, hard to maneuver underwater, easy to track on sonar, and easy to hit. Japanese hulls were also not as strong as those of German boats, and therefore could not dive as deeply nor survive such rough treatment.

the face of such disadvantages, morale declined within the Japanese submarine force. This is reflected in a post-war report prepared by the US and British Navies which states, "It was frankly impossible to believe that submarines could spend weeks on the US west coast 'without contacts,' or spend more than 40 days running among the Solomons during the Guadalcanal campaign 'without seeing any targets.' Even the Japanese commanding officers could not disguise their embarrassment when recounting these tales. Further enlightenment is found in the extremely large number of times the target was 'too far away to attack.'"

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm

Sources:
Polmar, Norman and Dorr B. Carpenter. Submarines of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Conway Maritime Press, 1986.
Boyd, Carl and Akihiko Yoshida. The Japanese Submarine Force and World War II, Naval Institute Press, 1995.
Bagnasco, Erminio. Submarines of World War Two, Naval Institute Press, 1977.

VON_CAPO

12-05-06, 02:27 PM

Enough with the IJN Sub sim request please, they were irrelevent in the second world war. Give me an irrelevant submarine to attack the overwhelming US Navy.
That is the real challenge. :yep::yep::yep:
It would be very interesting to see how those japanese subs perform under an aggressive command.

Harry Buttle

12-05-06, 08:26 PM

Or you want say Japanese did bad thing,so we want to remember or be reminded,,,,?
If I harm your feeling I am sorry.

I am stating that the Japanese, as a nation, did appalling things in WW2 and are deliberately avoiding facing them (that does not mean that you personally do so).

Having retraced the Sandakan death march ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandakan_Death_Marches ) some years ago and read of the countless similar atrocities (Bataan, Burma railway, Changi, etc, etc all the way back to Nanking), it is quite clear that Japan does not want to accept responsibility for what Japan did. trying to market products in Japan that remind the Japanese of what they did is not a winning strategy.

Harry Buttle

12-05-06, 08:32 PM

Give me an irrelevant submarine to attack the overwhelming US Navy.

The key word here is 'give', I notice not one person here has said that they would be prepared to help finance the project. You all know it would be a commercial failure.

If I had the cash, I'd gladly finance SH V 'U-boats again and back in the atlantic' because it can make money by just bringing advances to what has already been done there.

Safe-Keeper

12-05-06, 09:49 PM

Trying to market products in Japan that remind the Japanese of what they did is not a winning strategy.There was still the movie Yamato some time ago. But no, no recent films about atrocities.

difool2

12-06-06, 12:36 AM

Hmm...possibility of a mod, using the same AI and other code just with US surface
ships and models of various Japanese subs?

zaza

12-06-06, 05:24 AM

Enough with the IJN Sub sim request please, they were irreverent in the second world war.
irreverent???
Why you said so?

Having retraced the Sandakan death march ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandakan_Death_Marches ) some years ago and read of the countless similar atrocities (Bataan, Burma railway, Changi, etc, etc all the way back to Nanking), it is quite clear that Japan does not want to accept responsibility for what Japan did. trying to market products in Japan that remind the Japanese of what they did is not a winning strategy.

I see. Also in Japan sometime kind of this issue has discussed.
And sometime I saw it in newspaper.
And we cant find good solution.

THE_MASK

12-06-06, 05:30 AM

As an aussie i dont think i could bring myself to play as a jap sub captain . Sounds silly after playing a german one , but its true .

d@rk51d3

12-06-06, 08:28 AM

If I had the cash, I'd gladly finance SH V 'U-boats again....
IF I had the money Id do alot of things too...

BTW, you seem to blissfully unaware of your own countries atrocities. Thats too bad.

Wulfmann

12-06-06, 02:14 PM

First, the dev has to consider what would be commercially successful and while a few might like being a Jap CO most don’t care for the above often stated reasons.
The majority that “think” they would like being a Jap likely know little about the poor boats the Jap subs were.
They were extremely slow to dive and a type IX is nimble by comparison to the poor maneuverability of these dogs. They were so structurally weak a good sneeze would sink one. Seriously they were weak, very very weak compared to US and German subs.
It might be interesting to run a few patrols to get an idea of how crappy boats are frustrating (even though they had great torpedoes) but it would not be long before you forget what side your on and care about having decent equipment and a snow ball chance in hell of surviving an M-80 or a couple firecrackers.
The Japs were big on making things photograph well and have impressive stats and their boats look good on paper. They are poor subs to actually have to use in combat, though.

Wulfmann

Harry Buttle

12-06-06, 04:23 PM

If I had the cash, I'd gladly finance SH V 'U-boats again....
IF I had the money Id do alot of things too...

BTW, you seem to blissfully unaware of your own countries atrocities. Thats too bad.

Feel free to list them. You might be in for a few surprises.

d@rk51d3

12-06-06, 04:29 PM

No Doubt.

Torplexed

12-06-06, 08:27 PM

Silent Hunter 2 wasn't the greatest subsim ever made but could be modded to include foreign submarines. My impression of the big Japanese I-Boats (Type KD7) was wonderful range and surface speed and torpedoes...but once forced under about as manuverable as a brick, as big as a house on a sonar screen and against any decent pack of Allied destroyers...dead meat.

Harry Buttle

12-06-06, 09:37 PM

No Doubt.

or to put it another way. you got nothing.

d@rk51d3

12-06-06, 10:04 PM

zaza

12-07-06, 05:33 AM

The majority that “think” they would like being a Jap likely know little about the poor boats the Jap subs were.
They were extremely slow to dive and a type IX is nimble by comparison to the poor maneuverability of these dogs. They were so structurally weak a good sneeze would sink one. Seriously they were weak, very very weak compared to US and German subs.

The Japs were big on making things photograph well and have impressive stats and their boats look good on paper. They are poor subs to actually have to use in combat, though.

Wulfmann
Ohhhhh , where did you get that information???
I read the book who written by Mistuma Itakura,he was a captain of some
I boats.

He was a captain Jusen type J1 class (I-2) and he says
it took only 40 seconds to dive whole body.
40 seconds is not so different from uboat IX.
And I-2 was build in 1926 !!! Old sub.

In war time IJN build mainly Jyusen type A,B,C called (kou otsu hei class).
By the book who wrote IJN researcher says in spite of large hull (bigger
than U-boat and US sub) mobility is not so bad under water except noise
and raider system.
And they can dive deep, safe depth is about 100M,and
it designed ,they can dive more around 200M over.

BY The Way,Why don't we stop use the word "JAP"or "JAPS"?
Yes I know, it use them as short version of Japanese or Japan.
And I know people of here are not use this words for offensive words.
But here is public space.
Not all the Japanese seeing this forum can understand english very well (includeing me lol)
and why using the words Jap.
If like these people see ,may be feel it using as offensive.

Let's use not "Jap" but "JPN" or "IJN" (Imeperial Japanese Navy).
:up:

Thank you.:yep:

Corsair

12-07-06, 09:15 AM

I would like to command an IJN submarine because I like sushi a lot more than hamburgers or kentucky fried chicken...;)

Wulfmann

12-07-06, 01:51 PM

Ohhhhh , where did you get that information???
I read the book who written by Mistuma Itakura,he was a captain of some
I boats.

A captain that liked his boat compared to nearly every technical analysis done on Jap subs. I will stick with everyone else.

BY The Way, Why don't we stop use the word "JAP"or "JAPS"?
Yes I know, it use them as short version of Japanese or Japan.
And I know people of here are not use this words for offensive words.
But here is public space.
Not all the Japanese seeing this forum can understand English very well (including me lol)
and why using the words Jap.
If like these people see ,may be feel it using as offensive.

Let's use not "Jap" but "JPN" or "IJN" (Imeperial Japanese Navy).

If I posted to a Jap forum and they asked me to not use Jap because they were offended I would do so.
This is an in English language forum and Jap is short for Japanese and easier to write. Please do not also ask me to make LOL the long version either or ROTF or WTF (which we can not:rotfl:
It is not meant with any disrespect so write that down and understand the only ones offended are trying to be offended.

Wulfmann

d@rk51d3

12-07-06, 04:46 PM

BY The Way,Why don't we stop use the word "JAP"or "JAPS"?
Yes I know, it use them as short version of Japanese or Japan.
And I know people of here are not use this words for offensive words.
But here is public space.
Not all the Japanese seeing this forum can understand english very well (includeing me lol)
and why using the words Jap.
If like these people see ,may be feel it using as offensive.

Let's use not "Jap" but "JPN" or "IJN" (Imeperial Japanese Navy).
:up:

Thank you.:yep:

I've seen similar requests on other (non "military") sites too, and while the abbreviation it is not generally intended in any derogatory manner, I'll do my best to avoid causing such offence.

Harry Buttle

12-07-06, 09:27 PM

Or to put it another way, anybody with half a brain realises that in war, crimes are commited by both sides. Just because 1 side "wins", that doesn't excuse their actions.

Nevertheless, no offence intended. Happy hunting to all.:up:

Oh I see, you equate the occaisional, unspecified illegal acts of individuals with the large scale, policy driven acts of barbarism committed by the Japanese in WW2 (and of course the preceeding years in China).

Moral relativism is a wonderful thing isn't it - it allows you to know nothing and still pass judgement on everything. I commend you on your choice of personal philosophy, it suits you perfectly.

And what possible offense could be taken to comparing an unspecified number of unspecified individual Australian atrocities to the systematic murder of thousands of POWs, civilians, nurses, wounded and non combatants by various combinations of starvation, torture, brutality and simple murder. Yes a 'smiley face' makes everything OK.

d@rk51d3

12-07-06, 09:48 PM

Yes a 'smiley face' makes everything OK.

Glad to hear it mate.

TheSatyr

12-11-06, 09:22 PM

Schatten

12-12-06, 12:06 AM

1) Dresden was a city that at that point in the war was close to the front and boasted a large military garrison, railway yards, and civilian factories that were converted to military use. In February 1945 the Germans were still fighting hard on both fronts and ignoring a major garrison city simply because it was a cultural center would have been militarilly irresponsible, it was a valid target. Also the German official whom was responsible for collecting the remains and sorting through the casualty lists after the attacks testified that the death toll was 30,000 not the 200-250,000 which has been quoted widely and inaccurately. 30,000 isn't anything minor by any means, but the Dresden bombing has been widely exaggerated in scale for various reasons for many years.

2) Toyko was the Japanese capital and one of the major industrial centers of the Empire. The way the Japanese employed cottage and small scale industry mixed in with civilian areas made it impossible to target those industries without hitting the civilian areas around them. Also since the residential areas which surrounded these dispersed industrial centers were also often where the workers for these industries lived it was decided that hitting them would do twofold disruption of the the manufacturing output of Tokyo. Yes lots of civilians were killed and that is unfortunate, but a case could be made that they were civilians employed in manufacturing items of military use. It's a borderline call but I wouldn't classify it as a planned attrocity conceived just to kill civilians. There were valid military reasons to hit Tokyo, and the other Japanese cities that were firebombed. The death tolls from such bombing attacks were as high as they were due to a combination of traditional Japanese building techniques and the widespread use of incidiaries which were most effective at destroying targets in areas of that sort. Grisly synchronicity yes, but not a planned attrocity to my mind.

3) Nagasaki was a result of the Japanese refusing to believe that "unconditional surrender or else" was really our policy. The bombing being the "or else" after Hiroshima. There were many in the Japanese military that wanted to continue to fight even after Nagasaki, and if that would have happened then the US would have employed more atomic bombs against more cities. After demanding unconditional surrender, and after showing the Japanese what would happen if they continued to resist, and then having them continue to fight there was little else to be done than follow through on the threat. The atomic bombs, while admittedly nasty things, saved millions of lives by shortening the war and making an invasion of Japan not necessary. And by millions I mean Japanese lives as well as Allied ones.

Yes I agree, bad things and attrocites are committed on all sides during a war. But the difference is that the Japanese and Germans systematically and institutionally, set out to commit such acts on a large scale as a matter of policy.

Having gotten that off my chest, back to the original subject: I wouldn't mind seeing an IJN submarine addon at some point, but I'd much prefer seeing a Dutch and/or British one in the PTO done first if nationality addons were considered.

Safe-Keeper

12-12-06, 01:28 AM

heartc

12-12-06, 01:41 AM

That "Give us Jap Boats!!!111!" thing is still going on? Oh my.

Look, it's really simple: There were only two large-scale underwater warfare campaigns conducted in WWII: The U-Boat Battle in the Atlantic and the US Sub Campaign in the PTO. Plenty other nations deployed subs in one way or another, but only in such a limited way and numbers that you would have a hard time doing a campaign for it in a simulation, unless you want to throw all resemblence of historical accuracy overboard.

Since that "atmosphere" thing keeps coming up, about U-Boats having a different aura around them than Fleet Subs - true, in some way, it's completely different. The environment of the Atlantic is totally different to the Pacific, the enemy ships look different, the convoy sizes are different, the enemy tactics and equipment and that of your own boat is different, and, after all, there is a different atmosphere from "Jawohl, Herr Kaleun!" to "Up Periscope!". Usually, when I get into paying a U-Boat sim, I have zero interest in playing a Subsim at the same time. AND VISE-VERSA. What you people do is I think you miss out on something if you dismiss driving a Fleet Sub just because it might feel different.
I get the feeling many of the critics never played SHI. That was one KICK ASS PTO subsim. It had a fully functioning TDC, SD / SJ PPI radar etc, and it was able to transport the "Pacific mood" to the player pretty well. It felt totally different to AOD, but it was not any worse. In fact, from a technical point of view, it was more sophisticated, since you could enter manual fire solutions for the first time in a subsim.

What you need to do is either give this game a shot, or even better, start reading up somewhat on the US Fleet-Sub Pacific campaign. That should get you into the mood, and should also remove all of this "It was SOOOO easy and BOOORING!!11!" stuff. Submarine warfare in general was NEVER an easy thing. In the Pacific, the challenge was simply of a different kind in some ways. Just because the US Navy Sub-Campaign was not litterally as SUICIDAL as the Kriegsmarine ones, it doesn't mean it was easy or not dangerous. You will die plenty of time, count on it. In fact, for they had better equipment relative to the U-Boats in part, and the enemy ASW tactics were not as sophisticated (which mostly boils down to no rdr equipped night fighters / bombers attacking the Boats), US Skippers did A LOT of daredevil ****. Like, trying to enter enemy harbors pretty often or going all out against oncoming destroyers. In fact, there was a Skipper (I think of the USS "Harder") who made them his prime-targets to remove them out the inventory of the IJN. Also, catching taskforces moving at 27 knots, with constant aircover during the day, is something which will prove quite difficult. And don't forget you will often operate in shallow waters, with little room to maneuver, being able to see landfall either side of your sub.

In my opinion, if you really dismiss a US-Fleet Sub scenario as boring even before you played it, you must be either ignorant or have a general problem of a different kind which I will not go into here, but which seems quite obvious with some posters.

heartc

12-12-06, 01:44 AM

Schatten

12-12-06, 05:02 AM

Those three are only a few examples. The Allies during World War II did not have too much respect for human lives. Granted, they didn't have death camps (even though the US built concentration camps for Japanese), but they were not particularly nice people either.

During a total war a lot of people don't have a whole lot of respect for human life, it's just the way humans are. What I meant was that the (Western) Allies didn't systematically undertake to commit genocide or organize atrocities on a large and/or coordinated scale and that seemed to be the contention of the previous post. Yes attrocities did happen on all sides and even American troops perpetrated some, I know of at least one incident from an eyewitness account, but they weren't organized or condoned by the chain of command and were usually the result of mentally exhausted small units who'd simply seen too much and weren't in a merciful mood when confronted with the perpetrators of the organized attrocities that they'd come across. It doesn't excuse it, but it wasn't systematic on our end. There may not be a world of legal difference between the incidents of GIs shooting SS men attempting to surrender after those same GIs had just liberated Buchenwald and commonly understood war crimes, but to me there's a huge moral difference.

As for the Nisei camps the times were different then, and a lot of people just weren't very well educated on the different types of Japanese immigrants here. They were the result of widespread fear among the American population. I don't condone them, but I also wouldn't paint them as concentration camps either because of the connotation that term has because of what the Germans did. Death Camps aside, even a "regular" German concentration camp was magnitudes worse than anything that happened in the US. A total of 5 Japanese were confirmed killed by guards in the US camps during the entire course of the program. That's not excusible either, but it's pale in comparison to the German camps of any kind so using the term Concentration Camp evokes a certain image in one's mind that isn't really comparable in my opinion.

I'd also make the distinction between the Western Allies and the Soviets, which did have a systematic program of attrocities against not only their enemies but also their own people before, during and after the war.

Sorry to belabor the point, but it gets my dander up a little when I see moral equivilency arguments about the sides in WWII.

But like I said, that wouldn't prevent me from trying out a Japanese sub addon, although like it's been said it would be sort of limited unless you changed history somewhat and went after Allied shipping instead of going after Allied warships. It makes me wonder at what point do can you still have an accurate sim when the only way to make it "fun" (or survivable really) would be to change the tactics used by the players to the point that they completely went against the actual doctrine of the IJN at the time you know? If you went after shipping it would be more survivable, but also historically innacurate, while if you went solely after combat ships your campaign would be pretty short indeed. So it's a tough call.

Wulfmann

12-12-06, 04:46 PM

First of all, war is in itself an atrocity.

Second, the most despicable act in human history was the holocaust. Nazis Germans that were in charge directed many others, murdered 10.5 million people including 4.5 million Jews (6 million Jews died in WWII total from all causes, Israeli gov figures)

But, the German have taken responsibility (as much as can be considered possible as there will never be atonement).

I have been to both Israel and Germany and spoke with many people on this subject. It is not swept under the rug as some suggest. Germany had paid huge reparations to Israel and individuals.
Japan, however, refuses to even talk about the dastardly atrocities it committed. The Germans never treated American prisoners in the despicable manner the Japanese did.
They’re continued silence and refusal to pay compensation to me is like a crime gone unpunished. The people I spoke to in China liked Americans fine but they hate with a passion the Japanese and it is more the lack of admitting to what they did that causes this bad feeling.

The Russians take the cake for mistreating their own people. In that there is not contest. I spoke with a Russian official in Spain in 1993 and he estimates 20 million Russians were killed by Stalin in purges and 30 million would be possible.

Dresden had many refugees because of the shrinking front and we will never know the true number. 30,000 is not realistic nor is 200,000 both seem to serve the wants of those making the estimates. The likely number is 80-100,000 but there will never be a way to know for sure. Even though it was meant to show the Russians what they could expect (and did not work hence Hiroshima and Nagasaki) we were at war and any such city was a target. Germans blame the war not the Yanks or Brits for Dresden.

You can’t target soldiers with exploding bullets but if you aim for their equipment it is legal. So you aim for the belt buckle. How stupid is that? And, you can throw exploding hand grenades but can’t fire exploding bullets. Who thinks this is at all rational.

Anyone that advocates starting a war should be ready to be burnt to the ground and every person killed. If we dropped all rules for conducting war and made it open to any means perhaps there would be fewer wars. War is insanity unleashed. Pleading insanity for a war crime would be close to the truth.

Wulfmann

Corsair

12-12-06, 05:08 PM

Remembers me of a well known sentence of the "hippie" 7Os :

"What would happen if they called up a war and nobody came ?"

Theta Sigma

01-04-07, 12:28 AM

There are many well written posts in opposition to this (mod?), but I don't think that this thread is neccesarily a true cross section of the market for an IJN experience within SH, nor should it be considered one. (I know that would apply to my post too, but what can you do?)

I think I make it pretty clear what side I'd like to play on, and it isn't because it's the winning side. The allies won the war, and SH is predominatly a German atlantic theatre game experience. I know there are people who feel the American experience should be next in line, but I never saw major oposition to SH3 focusing on U-Boats again when SH3 came out. It was a better experience for the fact the boats were better, yeah, but I also think there's a little of that "bad guy" desire too. We usually like to be on the bad side. It's more fun to be Khan than Kirk, you know. ;)

I get it that some may want fulfill their recreationist dreams through the game, playing it out as it happened, with enforced limitations as to how things should turn out, but equally so, people want the enemy side experience too. I don't expect to win the war, but I'd like to try and win a few battles. At least let me have the opportunity. I'm in it for the experience, not necessarily for a fast turn, or quick dive.

It seems written in stone that I won't get IJN gameplay in SHIV, but if Ubi doesn't leak that SHV will be IJN based, then they should take part in an aftermarket IJN mod for SHIV. Yes, I'd pay for it too.

Banzai... http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/1597/ninjagn1.gif

6. Rendezvous missions with German U-boats to exchange critical information about technologies/nuclear secrets.

Or undead human hearts from notorious german experiments.

Someone has to get that reference... ;)

Chaotic42

01-04-07, 02:59 AM

Nah, I'm ready to play as America again. I haven't played a sub game as an American in like 13 years. Too many things are Japanese these days anyway.

Theta Sigma

01-04-07, 03:25 AM

Nah, I'm ready to play as America again. I haven't played a sub game as an American in like 13 years. Too many things are Japanese these days anyway.

LOL. Well, they weren't back then. ;)

Did you ever play Enigma: Rising Tide? I often played as an American in that. (As well as their "LFN" Japanese/UK alliance)

marky

01-04-07, 02:43 PM

cept that the jap suibz were also used for ferrying supplies, with empty torpedo rooms to make room for cargo

doesnt sound fun does it :down:;):shifty::doh::rotfl:

Theta Sigma

01-04-07, 03:05 PM

cept that the jap suibz were also used for ferrying supplies, with empty torpedo rooms to make room for cargo

doesnt sound fun does it :down:;):shifty::doh::rotfl:

Not all. Anyhow, let me worry about whether the sake gets there on time.

Harry Buttle

01-04-07, 07:46 PM

I can name 3 large scale Allied atrocities:

1) The destruction of the church city of Dresden. Had very little military value and was only done to terrorize the German people. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died there.

2)The fire bombing of Tokyo. Again,another bombing raid targeted primarily on civilians.

3)Nagasaki. While Hiroshima MIGHT have been necessary,Nagasaki was not. It was done more to send a message to the USSR than anything else.

I only just noticed these posts, more of the ever popular moral equivalence.

Dresden was a defended city and liable to be bombed like any other, Tokyo was also a defended city and the capital of Japan, Re Nagasaki, again a defended city, and Nagasaki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasaki) had been one of the largest sea ports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_port) in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance), ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

Pretty much screaming to be bombed.

NO ONE'S hands were clean in WW2, All sides commited atrocities,both large and small.

A simple question, no matter how brutal the allies had to be to win, it all stopped once we won. is there anyone here who honestly believes Japanese and German atrocities would have stopped if the Allies had surrendered? that the death camps would have closed in 42 if the Brits had accepted that Hitler could rule all of Europe?

Oesten

01-04-07, 08:16 PM

IMO Ubi got it the wrong way round with SH3 and SH4.

SH3 should have been set in the Pacific Theatre, because the oldest game in the franchise was SH1, and that was set in the Pacific. Before SH3 came out, SH2 was the most recent Silent Hunter game, and that was in the Atlantic with U-boats.

So SH3 should have been in the Pacific IMO. And right now, the SH4 dev team would have been creating a much better U-boat sim, with wolfpacks and radio communications.

Anyway, regarding an SH4 Japanese sub addon or mod.....

I think due to the infrequency of action most Japanese subs saw during the war, an completely historically accurate Japanese sub dynamic campaign would be pretty boring.

The best way to do a Japanese addon to SH4, would be to have a 'what if' dynamic campaign in which the player is sent to attack Allied merchant ships whenever there isn't a major battle taking place in the Pacific. When there is a major battle about to happen during the campaign, the historical task forces should be coded into the campaign (as they are in the GWX mod) so the player can go and attack Allied warships and carry out historically accurate missions as well.