American Torpedo Issues

[CruiseTorpedo]

I've been reading some books about the american submarine force in ww2 and there seems to be major torpedo issues all through out the war. One comparison was made that I read where it took an average 10 torpedoes to sink one ship using american torps vs 4 for every sinking using german torps.

I'm curious how this will be modeled in SH4, in the accounts I read electric torpedo technology was well behind the germans and the gyros / detonators plain sucked.

[nikimcbee]

I've been reading some books about the american submarine force in ww2 and there seems to be major torpedo issues all through out the war. One comparison was made that I read where it took an average 10 torpedoes to sink one ship using american torps vs 4 for every sinking using german torps.

I'm curious how this will be modeled in SH4, in the accounts I read electric torpedo technology was well behind the germans and the gyros / detonators plain sucked.

If I remember right, they (the BURORD) only tested the mark 14 once and it worked. But what they didn't catch, was that the torps ran deeper than they set them and the firing pin was too weak, and it would bend on impact. Read Clay Blair's book "Silent Victory" for more details on the problems.

[Threadfin]

The problems with the torpedos were overcome by mid-'43 or thereabouts, so these troubles did not persist throughout the war.

Essentially the 'American Torpedo Scandal' was a four-headed monster.

Depth Keeping -- The torpedos ran deeper than there were set. Evidently Newport tested them with practice warheads, which are lighter than normal warheads, and this caused the torpedos to run too deep.

Contact detonator - As mentioned the firing pins were not working properly, and in a solid hit they would bend in such a way that they did not make contact with the detonator, and the torpedos did not explode.

Magnetic Detonator -- Often failed, or was overly sensitive as they attempted to get it working properly.

Low supply -- There were not enough torpedos in the early part of the war, and skippers were encouraged to use them singly, which just compounded the other problems.


The obstinancy of BuOrd was criminal, and it could be argued that hundreds if not thousands of US sailors lost their lives as the direct result of faulty torpedos. Despite the reports from the men on the front lines, BuOrd refused to admit any problems, the torpedos worked they said. It was the skippers who were using them incorrectly.

Finally some tests were conducted in Australia, firing torpedos against fishing nets to see whether the fish punched a hole at the set depth. They did not, and it was discovered they ran too deep.

Eventually some detonator tests were conducted in Hawaii, torpedos being fired first at cliffs, then warheads dropped from cranes, where it was determined the firing pin did not work properly.

All of this was done in spite of BuOrd, who refused to conduct any of their own tests, and all changes came about as the resut of tests and reports from the field.

Despite personally having no connection to this period in history I still find myself becoming red with anger over this whole affair, and often wonder why the men in charge were not held criminally responsible for their neglect. On top of the existing problems, Newport also did virtually nothing to assist in the development of anything not designed there, which contributed major delays to the development of an electric torpedo among other weapons.

[CruiseTorpedo]

This whole thing is just nuts, why wasnt there sufficient supply at the start of the war? The part I caught in the one book I've read about the subs in the pacific stated they were all built exclusively at one plant and only later were torpedoes built at other locations. Was it another part of the behind the scenes bribing type of crap giving all the profits to this one business?

This is just really really weird, why the military would put up with this kind of stuff over a weapon so important as the torpedo. Maybe they didnt see it this way even after all the uboat events going on through out 1940 - 1941?? I think I recall in some interviews and documentaries that the big wigs wanted some grand battleship vs battleship thing where actual events and technology made it into more of an air war at the front with subs in the rear cutting supplies.

Still I just dont get it, I know hindsight is wonderful and I'm really trying to put myself in their shoes but it's not working. What the heck were they thinking?

[DAB]

Still I just dont get it, I know hindsight is wonderful and I'm really trying to put myself in their shoes but it's not working. What the heck were they thinking?

Simular thoughts to what they think today. Defence procurment is based on political need, not military.

No one thought the submarine was going to be that important a wepon - so torpedo's wasn't a priority like Battleship shells were. And then trainee USNR officers were being failed during training for not writing in exams that the submarine was a short range weapon suitable only for defence - whilst German U-boats were marauding off the East Coast of the US

[PeriscopeDepth]

It also had a lot to do with ego. The people that had to admit something was wrong for far reaching steps to be taken toward fixing the Mark 14 are the same people that built and tested it. So instead of blaming themselves, they blamed the Captains and crews. German torpedoes had very similar issues during WWII, but the Germans proved far better at making the bureaucracy move towards fixing it.

PD

[Danelov]

[quote=Threadfin]

The obstinancy of BuOrd was criminal, and it could be argued that hundreds if not thousands of US sailors lost their lives as the direct result of faulty torpedos. Despite the reports from the men on the front lines, BuOrd refused to admit any problems, the torpedos worked they said. It was the skippers who were using them incorrectly.


I agree,was really a very triste page for the USN submarine Pacific forces and his mens, specially in this early difficult times

[CruiseTorpedo]

Ok I'm catching on, but I thought for sure I read there were still issues with the torps even through 1944 quoted in the book unrestricted warfare from experienced captains that knew they were not missing and had their crews check the torps they had remaining and found problems with servos and fins that were not lined up correctly making them run deep, and motors not broken in, stuff like that and those were issues from torps made at the new plants to improve torpedo production. Made me think that torpedoes produced at the first plant were probably fine but starting production at other locations had issues so half the torpedoes available were faulty and unreliable unless they were babied first by the crew of the boats!

[tycho102]

Despite personally having no connection to this period in history I still find myself becoming red with anger over this whole affair, and often wonder why the men in charge were not held criminally responsible for their neglect. On top of the existing problems, Newport also did virtually nothing to assist in the development of anything not designed there, which contributed major delays to the development of an electric torpedo among other weapons.

Much like the M16-A1. Really, the problem goes back to the congressmen and women, "campaign contributions" (i.e. bribes), and special interests.

Our torpedoes in WW2 were a God Damn Political Travesty, and it severely pisses me off because nothing has changed since then. The exact same system causes us to be dependent on arab oil, NASA shuttles to burn up on re-entry, and concrete levees that are not fully anchored into the sandbar.

Really does make my blood boil every time I think about it (the torpedoes).

[Rab09]

For a good overview of the torpedo problems, read "Silent Victory, The Submarine War against Japan" by Clay Blair, Jr. J.B. Lippincott Company.

[bookworm_020]

You Know how that got a relaible torpedo and contact detonator???

They copied a captured German T3 torpedo. It was more reliable than anything they could come up with.

I wonder what the Japanese crews who were sunk by these knock off copies of German torpedo's would have felt if they knew where the design came from:hmm: