William516
09-06-06, 08:22 AM
Due to some UBI regulations that I think are silly I'm moving over to this my questions to this forum as well for some help. Granted I have NOTHING against any member in the UBI forums and many of them have been a great deal of help however I am hoping to get some answers to these questions here as well. Feel free to look at the thread in the UBI forum for past information and answers if you wish. There are some really good answers there especially from a gentleman named Danelov (Spelling sorry).
It never hurts however to post in more then one spot. Below is the orginal questions from my first post. Hope to get some more answers as well from you guys
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I wanted to throw this out there as a thread where people could come and post questions about silly things that are never shown or talked about in movies or books. For example take some of my questions.
If someone knows the answer to any of the questions posted please include the qoute/ original question.
1. Bathrooms on the submarine, how did this work? Did the submarines have storage tanks or overboard dumping (no pun intended)
2. The use of a snokel to run the diesel engine in the game is very easy and if im correct will also recharge the air in the submarine. How did this work in real life. In order for the engine to be run, you need O2, I understand that the snorkel brings in the oxygen to the engine, but how is it possible to recharge the oxygen supply for breathing. Also where does the engine exhust go? If it were explelled out the rear if would leave a huge bubble trail sorta like a inboard/outboard engine. Just wondering how this is done
3. Internal submarine communications. How did the men communicate between compartments durring regular (non-silent) running. The movies show phones but on the bridge and in other compartments in the game it shows metal pipes or (something like that)?
4. Spare parts, with very limited space on a submarine how were repairs accomplished. For example if a submarine were to get a damaged or a destroyed prop, could it be fixed. The movies show very little of where or how repairs are made. Das-Boot does show a little of the repairs done but they had spare wire and other items on board. Guess im just wondering how all this is done.
5. If a submarine suffers hull damage from a depth charge or a shell how is this repaired. Another quick example, if a submarine has a shell pentetrate the hull can this be repaired at sea. In Sh3 when your hit with a shell it leaves a black mark on the ship, however in real life I could only assume that the shell would pentrate the skin of the sub leaving a gapping hole. With limited supplies i dont see how it would be possible to fix the outer hull of the boat. further more if the shell penetrated the hull the sub could no longer dive, there would be no way to keep compressed air in the ballast tanks.
6. US submarines have a galley and everything including air condition, did the German U-boats have any of this or was it all strictly buisness?
7. How long could a submarine battery last for before they had to be pulled out and completly replaced. The rule with batteries are that they will never fully recharge again so I would assume that after an extended period of time the batteries would need to be replaced because they would not hold a charge. I would also guess this would be a hell of a job to do because of how big they are and where they are located.
8. Extra torpedoes mounted on the top deck? Is this something that UBI decided to give up or was it possible in real life. Looking at several pictures of submarines I cant seem to find a spot where the torpedoes were mounted. They certainly must have been enclosed, I dont think they would have torpedoes strapped down in plain site.
9. How many electrical back up systems does a sub generaly have onboard
10. What kind of activities did submarine crews do for enjoyment and to stay in shape on these long trips?
11. Where submarine vs submarine battles common as portrayed in some movies? If so are there any records of a sub sinking another sub while submerged in a confrontation
12. Other then visual sighting how could a submarine determine friend from foe? Was there a secret code or transmission that a sub could send out and wait for response, or was it a simple "look first then fire"
13. How destructive was a ww2 torpedo, video has shown a modern torpedo blowing a ship to pieces with an under keel shot, are the topedoes in sh3 correct when it comes to power. Of course movies show one torpedo taking out a ship (cough cough U-571) but was it possible with a good shot or simply all holywood glamor?
14. Is it true that every crew member is trained to do anyones job, or is this another myth I have heard? I mean can an electrician operate the radio or repair an engine.
15. How does a submarine pump out water when flooded and being submerged. In Das-Boot there was a scene where they layed on the bottom and had a bucket brigade empty water to be pumped out. Just wondering how this was done.
I talked to a few people and came up with some more questions along with a few of my own to post again.
16. If a crew member was killed at sea What was done with the body. I dont see them bringing the body back home because of the risk of disease. So im guessing the bury them at sea? Or there is always the U-571 Movie way of putting them out the tube. I dont think they did this. If the body was burried as sea, did they call services for each member of the crew who died?
17. Keeping on the same track here, if a crew member was injured or got severly sick what would happen? To what extent could a doctor on a submarine care for a crew member. Simply not enough space onboard for all the medical equipment needed for all injuries.
18. This was a good one I wish I thought of this. In the movies you constantly see piped breaking or bolts busting and shooting across the way, Is this real or again holywood magic? It would seem to me that the hull of a submarine would compress but the designers would have allowed for the compression. The guages are also shown breaking under such pressure.
19. Are there any records of a submarine being struck by its own torpedo? This seems to occur in SH3 with the acoustic torpedo if you fire it and keep on same course and depth with engines running, It will come around and strike you. Just wondering if it ever happened in real life.
20. How does a submarine navigate once underwater? This question also was thought up by someone else and he referenced the movie. "The Hunt For Red October" There is a scene in the movie where they are navigating an underwater trench, using a stop watch and map. Is this how it is done today? Two part question here. (5a) How often did submarines run aground? The maps couldn't be very accurate back in WW2, so it must have been very hard to navigate and dangerous.
Well here is a couple more questions for everyone to answer, again I welcome anyone to join in and participate. There is a ton of things that we have yet to ask that someone may have an answer to.
When posting an answer please copy the original question. This will make it easier for members or visitors to look at the replies and answers.
William
Captain
U-66
"Tiger Shark"
If you would like a copy of the story I have been writing and continued updates please feel free to PM me. I will send you what I have.
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Feel free to answer any of these questions that you can. I also encourage any member of the community to post any questions they wish to have answered as well. Maybe you will find an asnswer here.
Good Hunting
William
Captain
U-66
"Tiger Shark"
:rock:
Danelov
09-11-06, 09:39 AM
Thanks for the comments William516 and a pleasure to help. I repost again the answers of some questions because many of this informations are not available in Internet sites like Uboat net or others. Were taked from many books and other publications from ex commanders, and well know authors in the theme Kriegsmarine U-Boots.
1. Bathrooms on the submarine
There are not bathrooms ,only WC gabinet one in the IIA/B types and in the series VII, and two in the types IX, but in this one the second was used to store supplies.Thas was the famous "red light" of the U-Boots, the impertinent red reflexed in the wood interior of the U-Boot.The toillete of the crew was done with the limited water aboard and the "Kolibri",the famous Eau de Cologne of the U-Boot mens.
The WC instalation working system was limited to a a few meters of depth, with more was impossible to the pumps to work with the pressure and expeled the content outside.The four man of the Wach turn had always the priority to use the "small spot"(four hours by Wach).Latter another experimental instalations were tested.The U-1206(VIIC),was loss by failure in the WC,and posterior flooding of batteries causing Chlor gas the 14-04-45.
2-The schnorkel
Is was a partial solution to evade the incesant pressure of the air attacks.The prototype was builded in Holland and the works taked after the Invasion in May 1940 by the Germans.
The first primitive Schnorkel like the models equiping VIIC and IXCs were a nightmare for the crew.The speed was limited to 6 knts ,with more the stress cause damage in the tube.His utilisation was only limited to the night(I mean in enemy controlled areas),because the exhaust blues smokes were a scandalous visual reference, very easy to be spotted.THat mean a permanent guard in the periscope ,because the U-Boots running in diesel was also unable to hear something.The system extract the exterior air and expeled the CO of the Diesel. To evite ingestion of water he was equipped with a system of security valves ,closing automatic the admission of air.And that was a terrible moment for the crew because the Diesels in this moment aspirated the air of the interior of the U-Boot and expeled the gift gases also in the interior of the submarine.The explossive change of air pressure with the effect of the gift gases,nothing can be worst for the human organismus. For that ,rough sea mean terrible moments in perspective for a U-Boot equipped with the primitive Schnorkel.With the type XXI and after the initial experimentations the situation go better with improved model of Schnorkels.
3. Internal submarine communications
Yes, the standard of the time ,the acoustic tube or pipe.The conection with the bridge deck was open after the conning tower go out of the water by the L.I.; and viceversa for inmersión process.The U-Boots was also equipped with a system of speakers in all compartiments,utilised for comunications of the Commander,amplificator of the emergency orders situations ,like alerts or combat orders,etc. Some commanders, near of his crew in all sens ,making also a narration of was his see of the combat by the periscope, description of a enemy ship sinking,for example.The speakers serve also sometimes as amplificator of the gramophone.For comunications ship-ship , the usual Megaphone for vocal and Very signal lamps for morse. In Running Silent was all vocal.
4. Spare parts
5.Hull damage
A mini workshop was standard in each submarine,with capacity to repair and build from zero certain parts. Also Acetilene soldure equipment ,capable to repair hulls ,but this last was not available in all U-Boots.Was standard in the large oceanic IX types.Reparations works,usually reserved for a yard, were acomplished sometimes in extreme situations in U-Boots. A change of cylinders ,or rings was nothing anormal.A limited number of parts were always available as rechange ,but that was conditioned at the restrict space available.
6. Quote:US submarines have a galley and everything including air condition
A dream in a U-Boot, only if my memory is OK ,the XXI was equipped with a certain system of climatisator.
No galley in U-Boot, in the VIIC the kitchen had 4m squared ,the small refrigeration compartiment is situated near the forward torpedo room.The only "private" space was a small reduit space near of the Sound-Sonar-room ,behind the Command room reserved for the Officers and Commander.Is really small, when somebody come from the Engine room ,the officer seated in the corridor side must make place to allow the passage.The meals were served in big recipients(I dont know the name in english)and transported by a assigned sailor to the crew compartiment(Forward torpedo room)for example.Each sailor, Petty officer had is forks and knife.Beer usually was only reserved for the end of the patrol.The organisation and intendence of the meals were organized usually by the cook and the medical(when this one was available).Heathers were not always available; the radiators were carried only if the boot was assigned to cold area of operations.That give sometimes big problems ,because BDU can change for example,the theater of operation for the U-Boot from the Caribe to Cap Hatteras in the middle of the winter.Ventilation ,the normal ducts in the conning tower side. The VIIB had serious problems of ventilations but that was improved in the VIIC.
7. Quote:How long could a submarine battery last for before they had to be pulled out and completly replaced
To be honest, I dont know. They were situated under the crew spaces in the bottom of the hull forward and backward with the cylinders of the periscopes as division in the middle.The standard constructor was AFA(Akkumulatoren Fabrik Aktiengesellschaft Berlin-Hagen) with in the pic of the war four plants in production.As strategic target for the RAF and USAAF, this plants were very few attacked.
A certain numbers of specifications were fixed for the batteries
-strength-capacitad maximum as possible
-Must resist inclination of a submarine and electrolyte liquid must not flow out from the cells
-high resistance to mechanic shocks, vibrations and others
-long time duration of the cells
-Fast charging
-The charging work and discharging must expeled the minimum of gases.
This batteries were extremely heavy and take a lot of space, together with a big amount of the weight of the U-Boot,influencing of course,his dive time speed process.
The inspection work was done daily and the electrolyte was one of the supplies need also from the MilchCow supplies submarines.
This job was the field of the E-Anlage specialists, usually 7 mens in a VIIC.
8. Quote:Extra torpedoes mounted on the top deck?
Yes, external compartiments under the deck.Two reserve torpedos in the VIIC ; the job was not easy and more progressed the war more dangerous was to try to reload this torpedos in the forward torpedo room, for example.First, that was necessary for this work to have a calm sea. Then,that need the instalations of a sort of crane, guinches to push out the torpedo of the compartiment, then ,take this one in a angle near of 105° and then glide this one very slowly in the hatch of the torpedo room.That was a job long, demanding a minimum of 8 mens on deck with the U-Boot in very vulnerable position ,hatches open,unable to submerge.Like the rendez-vous with the MilchCow submarines,this job was also detested by the crew.Usually was done at night.
9. Quote:How many electrical back up systems does a sub generaly have onboard
Umm, like number 8 .I dont know exactly, I say you that I know about that
-Lights certainly ,is the first thing to go out after a depth charge attack.Fusibles console are situated in the command room left side and recharges in a near compartiment.They are also backup systems of the amperimeters of the batteries.Kitchen was electric and was the first instalation to be turned off in inmersion when the U-boot need each ampere of the batterie .About hydrophone electric source, I dont know ,but sometype of systeme of protection-security-safety was natural and logic.Radio was problematic ,many times the weight of the ice broke the antenne cables, same with rough sea.Metox cable was conected via the hatch to the soundroom and that was also problematic because the sorpresive close of the hatch can cut the cable.The Metox was oriented by hand to follow the incoming signal.
10. Quote:What kind of activities did submarine crews do for enjoyment and to stay in shape on these long trips?
First ,the "potain", the blabla ,long hours in the crew compartiment to "rede" with the others after his last "Adventures" in La Rochelle .St Nazaire,etc.
Must take in consideration each commander was different in this sens , some were really very strict,placing a barrier between officers and the rest of the crew, anothers less, and the enjoyment allowed depend in grand part from him.Some commmanders were very friendly with his crew ,familiars,comunicative,etc, commanders like Wolfgang Luth or Albrecht Brandi for example ; others were detested, like Prien.
Books ,magazines ,a good selection of music for the Gramophone, Skats,writting letters, reading letters,different games,in the U-Boots of Luth(and maybe in others too), conferences about different topics, nautic instruction for young Petty Officers,political and historical instruction,etc.
11. Quote:Where submarine vs submarine battles common as portrayed in some movies? If so are there any records of a sub sinking another sub while submerged in a confrontation
No,I have never hear something like this.Near of impossible with the technologie of the time.
Submarine in surface destroyed by other in inmersion , yes , severals , but boths submerged at depth, no.Boths submarine at periscope depth, umm ,I dont know ,never read or hear about this type of exploit, but can be possible with a lot, but really a big lot of luck and mastery.
12. Quote:Other then visual sighting how could a submarine determine friend from foe? Was there a secret code or transmission that a sub could send out and wait for response, or was it a simple "look first then fire"
A very skilled soundman was capable of make the diferentiation between the sound of a U-Boot and a British sub.Unlucky this type of man was the exception,more the war progressed and the training time and quality go down with .About the IFF , well ,in general each commander know who was near of his patrol area.The BDU indicative for a U-Boot was know by another.Yes, there where codes between the U-Boot and BDU for fix rendevous ,to shadow or monitoring convoys,etc.Signals in different Freq were utilised to guide other U-Boots to concentration for Rudeltaktik. Unlucky for Dönitz this bla,bla continuos between U-Boots and BDU is the direct responsable of many U-Boots destructions by the allied ,the signal were easily intercepted by the H/F D/F and transmitted to the escort commander of the convoy.With the fixed near position of the U-Boot this last send a couple of destroyers ,or AS planes to elimined this submarine.Or change the heading of the convoy in the night,mantening the U-Boot submerged for example.
13. Quote:How destructive was a ww2 torpedo?
That depend, WWII word is a big one.There are a lot of torpedos and Navys. The more powerfull torpedos capables of sink a Heavy Cruiser with only a hit were the famous Long Lance Japanese ,series type 92 and 95,with incredible range,speed and destructive power.A lot of ships of the US Navy in the Salomons were destroyed by this torpedos.Must say the IJN was the Master between 1941 and 1943 in the utilisation of destroyers and torpedo tactics,with mens like CAdm Raiso Tanaka.
Between 1941 and the medium of 1943 the worst torpedos were certainly the americans, sometimes launching 12 torpedos to sink a transport japanese of 2500 t.The second ones in the worst category were the Germans early G7a and G7e.After the terrible failure disaster of the U-Boots in Norway, the things go slowly better and improved drastically by the end of 1942.By 1944 all torpedos were considered like the best of the other nations.
Russian, Italians and British all had good perfomances torpedos from the early time war.
French a little less.
To answer your question , yes , a sole torpedo is capable to sink a medium target, naturally that depend also where was the hit. As flexible rule for the U-Boot commanders in WWII ,one torpedo for a target of 1000-5000 t, or a Corvette or Destroyer. Two torpedos for a target between 7000 to 10.000 tns ; maybe three depending the results ,tankers were sometimes ,mainy in ballast,more heavy to take.A Light cruiser 1 to 2 torpedos depending impact position , a Heavy cruiser 2 to 3 torpedos, a Battleship 3 to 5 depending his construction and type , can be also 9 or more for a Yamato class. A carrier 3 to 4.A passenger ship used as Auxiliar cruiser or transport, 2 to 3.That depend of many factors , there are not stricts rules about that.Only the combat situation can decide.
14. Quote:Is it true that every crew member is trained to do anyones job, or is this another myth I have heard? I mean can an electrician operate the radio or repair an engine.
Well, is a mix of boths.Is not very anormal to see a electrician trying to repair a radio.
This concept ideal of the crew polyvalent was more utilised by the crews of the big bombers, the gunner can make work the radio of the B-17, the pilot is hurt ,the navigant land the plane,etc.In subs the things were more difficult because rarely a crew member of the diesel can see how a soundman make his job.Of course all the crew had a base comun in the training submarine school, but then come the specialisation.But yes, certain jobs were possible outside of his normal post of work.
15. Quote:How does a submarine pump out water when flooded and being submerged. In Das-Boot there was a scene where they layed on the bottom and had a bucket brigade empty water to be pumped out. Just wondering how this was done.
I dont know exactly.Pumps work at this depth is near of impossible.The command room was dry but I dont remember if the rest of the submarine was also dry, when the U-boot start his ascension to the surface.
1-1. Quote:If a crew member was killed at sea What was done with the body. I dont see them bringing the body back home because of the risk of disease. So im guessing the bury them at sea? Or there is always the U-571 Movie way of putting them out the tube. I dont think they did this. If the body was burried as sea, did they call services for each member of the crew who died?
Combat situation permiting was burried at sea, but this ceremony was near of impossible after the start of deterioring of the war situation and in the increase of enemy air pressure."Putting in the torpedo tube" , yes very crude , but was the only option for a U-Boot assigned to a long patrol and working mainly with Schnorkel ; situation usually finded from 1944.About U-571 film , well, good effects and visuals ; but the film is a grotesque "Ensemble" of deformation historic ,very far of the reality.A German destroyer in the middle of the Atlantic(actually a US Navy fleet tug),submarine-submarine combat in depth,A BF-109 fighter in the middle of the Atlantic,skilled american crews capable of repairing the mechanics of a unknow enemy submarine ,unable to be repaired by his normal crew, etc.The few right things are the notes and the end of the film mentioning the real capture of Enigma from the U-110 of Lemp and the capture of U-570.
2. Quote:Keeping on the same track here, if a crew member was injured or got severly sick
The big oceanic types like the IX series included usually in his crew a medical or Navy practicant.But that was not always so.
Some officers of Petty Officers were trained with some relative medical preparation but nothing too extensive. Preparations for trait usually finded diseases of Venereans,irritations,indigestions,intoxications,l imited burning consequences,fractures,etc.
Was the sick man out of competence of the medical ,and combat situation permiting was transfered to a tanker, supply ship or a near friend more equipped ship with medical facilities.Or ask BDU to instructions for fix a possible rendes-vous with a suitable help unit.Medicals books manuals were always available in the U-Boots to be prepared to this type of situation.
3-Quote:In the movies you constantly see piped breaking or bolts busting and shooting across the way
Yes, that´s real.More the presurre of the depth augmented more critical was the situation for the ensemble of the mechanics of the U-Boot.
The real record was something like 270m attained by the VIICs/42.The XXI was know capable of 280m but he was no summit to others test to know his extreme depth resistance.
But this numbers are also relative , all yards had not builded the same type of submarine with equals parameters of tolerances and quality.
Germania Werk were know as weak VIICs types, better to not exigued extremes with this U-Boots , the top were the boats builded by the cracks of Blohm & Voss.
Submarines of the same type were different in his parameters ,like also the planes of this time.
4. Quote:Are there any records of a submarine being struck by its own torpedo?
This phenomene was quite normal finded with the acoustic torpedos.If the U-Boot launch a acoustic "Zaunköning" inmediately after must dive to a depth of some 60m and then reduced speed to minimum to produced also the minimum of noise.
Responding to your question.Yes,that is possible.The US "Tang" of O'Kane was sunk by his own torpedo, for example.Also possible of German submarines loss by his own torpedo, but difficult to say wich, they were terrible U-Boots losses daily in this times,and many times the real reason is still speculaltive
5. Quote:How does a submarine navigate once underwater?
Well, in WWII times the operatives depths were not like today.Certainly the U-Boot had a good set of maps and cartography of his assigned operative area ,but many times this ones were outdated.And that caused problems, ran aground, rocks submerged ,shallow waters with different numbers as the map,sandbanks,etc.This situation together with the disaster of the torpedo performances had take all his signification in the poor activitiees of the U-Boots in the Norway invasion in April 1940.
About "Red October" , yes that´s possible and they are of course, cartographic maps of the bottom.But also nothing too deep, we speak of depths about allround of the 1000-1800m.Here the top in the depth and speed perfomances were the Russian type "Alpha" builded with hull in aliation of titanium.Maybe also the "Akula" class can obtain the same perfomances.To navigate is this canons the submarine utilise his noiseless passive sensors.
Quote:I'm curious as to how they could identify the nationality of a merchant ship at night. I know it is never totally dark at night but surly the flags must have been impossible to read most of the time. Were many friendly/neutral ships sunk this way?
Yes, specially in the early times, the record come to U-19 ,a IIB with 11 neutral ships sunks between October 1939 and March 1940.Norway and Denmark were neutrals, before the Invasion of April 1940.
-Tanker Deodata (Norwegian 3295 t) mined Grid AN 7344(21-10-39)
-Merchant Konstantinos Hadjipateras(Greek 5962 t)min Grid AN 7344(24-10-39)
-Merchant Carica Milica(Yugoslavian 6371 t)mined Grid AN 7695(18-11-39)
-Merchant Manx(Norwegian 1343 t) Grid AN 1692(09-01-40)
-Merchant Pluto (Norwegian 1598 t) Grid AN 5186(23-01-40)
-Merchant Gudveig(Norwegian 1300 t) Grid AN 5186(25-01-40)
-Merchant Everene(Latvian 4434 t) Grid AN 5186(25-01-40)
-Merchant Charkow(Danish 1026 t) Grid AN 1680(19-03-40)
-Merchant Minsk (Danish 1229 t) Grid AN 1680(19-03-40)
-Merchant Viking(Danish 1153 t) Grid AN 1680(20-03-40)
-Merchant Bothal(Danish 2109 t) Grid AN 1680(20-03-40)
The first three were mined and we cannot count that a volontary destruction by U-19.
All others were sunken at night with the exception of "Pluto" sunken at early morning.
And the sinks were performed by one of the more famous Aces , Joachim Schepke ,latter commander of U-100 and killed in his U-Boot the same day of the capture of Kretschmer .
Latter,usually the criterium of identification was:
Had a cannon in the stern?
Can be attacked without warning.
Neutral ships were tasked to sail lights on, flag,nationality and name write in specific dimension letters and colors in the hull sides.
Yes, also a German cargo was sunk by U-Boot but that was justified. The "Borkum"(3670 t) was captured by British forces the 17-11-39 and the 23 of the same month was hit by one torpedo launch by U-33(VIIA-KptLt Von Dresky).The "Borkum" was refloated and broken up in 1940.
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