SHIV Protection system?

[TDK1044]

I'm aware that Ubisoft have announced that they will not be using the Starforce protection system for future games, including SH1V, but does anyone know if they're considering using a different protection system that could throw up similar issues, or whether they now realize that such protection software is more trouble than it's worth?

[UglyMowgli]

I hope it will be CodeMeter, the best one:up:

http://wibu.com/start.php?lang=en

[Gizzmoe]

We´ll know in a few months which copy protection they use for SH4. Until then everything is just speculation.

[fire-fox]

Hope fully it will not be BuntyBox.

Errrrrrwwww.... ::Shivers:::x

[Gizzmoe]

I hope it will be CodeMeter, the best one:up:
But it´s way too expensive, also it´s not practical for a company that sells many millions of games per year.

[Onkel Neal]

I hope it will be CodeMeter, the best one:up:

http://wibu.com/start.php?lang=en

Hmmm... looks good. I agree.

[TDK1044]

You're right, Gizz. It just seems to me that every software protection system on a game that I'm aware of is usually cracked within weeks of the game's release. As 95 percent of purchasers of the game are honest and are not interested in stealing from Ubisoft ,and the remaining 5 percent are always going to crack the software anyway, I wonder as to the wisdom of using such software?

[Onkel Neal]

You're right, Gizz. It just seems to me that every software protection system on a game that I'm aware of is usually cracked within weeks of the game's release. As 95 percent of purchasers of the game are honest and are not interested in stealing from Ubisoft ,and the remaining 5 percent are always going to crack the software anyway, I wonder as to the wisdom of using such software?

I'm trying to understand what this means: As 95 percent of purchasers of the game are honest and are not interested in stealing from Ubisoft ,and the remaining 5 percent are always going to crack the software anyway,

If they purchase the game, aren't 100% of the purchasers honest?? It's the non-purchasers we worry about. Where do your stats come from?

[UglyMowgli]

Codemeter is use with Steel Beasts Pro SE, no problem with it.

[TDK1044]

The vast majority of people who acquire a game like SH3 or SH1V, in my opinion, do so legally by purchasing it. Those people are then punished by having to load needlessly intrusive drivers onto their system, that are there to protect the game from a small number of thieves who will have defeated the protection software within weeks of the game's release. This leaves a high number of legitimate purchasrers struggling with unwanted and intrusive software, while the thieves laugh all the way to the bank. My argument is that the piracy figures would not be any higher, at least not by much, if this software protection was not in place, so why punish the good guys?

[Onkel Neal]

The vast majority of people who acquire a game like SH3 or SH1V, in my opinion, do so legally by purchasing it. Those people are then punished by having to load needlessly intrusive drivers onto their system, that are there to protect the game from a small number of thieves who will have defeated the protection software within weeks of the game's release. This leaves a high number of legitimate purchasrers struggling with unwanted and intrusive software, while the thieves laugh all the way to the bank. My argument is that the piracy figures would not be any higher, at least not by much, if this software protection was not in place, so why punish the good guys?

I don’t have any verifiable numbers but I think in the case of SH3, yes, most users acquired that game by purchasing it, because it had very strong copyprotection (I did not say "uncrackable", so all you guys waiting to tell me there was a crack online 3 months before the game came out, please--exhale :) )

I respectfully disagree that "vast majority" of people who buy games like SH3 get them legally. One game developer was quoted as saying that there were 5 times more requests for tech support on their game from users without the serial number than from users who bought the game legally. (I wish I had the link handy, if you want I can dig it up tonight, maybe someone else read that blog and they can supply the info). I know from my own experience with Subsim and the web, people use pirated software routinely. I can't begin to tell you how many people have offered to "share" something with me, even good friends and people I work with. It's pretty common, it usually goes like this:

Guy: Yes, I stayed up late last night playing NEWGAMEX, man, it's cool
Neal: Isn't that the one where you play as a Space Ranger?
Guy: Yeah, and you have 32 types of ships and guns.
Neal: Wow, sounds neat.
Guy: Here's a link, get a copy for yourself and let's play.

Not everyone does this, but there are a lot. I believe if you don't pay for it, you shouldn't play it. I know, I know; I don't score any popularity points with that attitude ;)

I agree with you that software protection should not punish the good guys. But I don't think having a dongle to insert into the USB port with the DVD is exactly nerve-shattering punishment :) I put more effort into making a bowl of oatmeal. But, hey, it sounds like we both agree that games should not be pirated, right? If a guy spends hundreds of hours working through code and art, putting together a new game, endures the griping that it isn't perfect, witnesses the congratulatory cheers some modder gets for adding a unit, etc…. he at least should get paid for every copy that gets played.

cheers
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

I found them: starts here
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/072606_ritual_piracy_1.x (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/072606_ritual_piracy_1.x)

Refers to this dev's blog:
http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/07/games-hidden-cost-of-piracy.html (http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/07/games-hidden-cost-of-piracy.html)

More here:
http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/05/piracy-sin-ep-not-work-safe.html (http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006/05/piracy-sin-ep-not-work-safe.html)

You can imagine how dispiriting it is for a game developer to realize that only 1 in 5 of the people playing his game are honest enough to buy it. I'm not claiming 5:1 is a standard ratio, just that is reported in this case.

cheers,
Neal

[Onkel Neal]

ok, I see he's updated it:
http://www.romsteady.net/blog/2006_07_01_romsteady_archive.html

:ping:

[Safe-Keeper]

Very, very good article. It does a very good job at shooting down the pirates' arguments, and reminds me I've got som decoys to upload to Kazaa:cool:.

I know from my own experience with Subsim and the web, people use pirated software routinely. I can't begin to tell you how many people have offered to "share" something with me, even good friends and people I work with. It's pretty common, it usually goes like this:

Guy: Yes, I stayed up late last night playing NEWGAMEX, man, it's cool
Neal: Isn't that the one where you play as a Space Ranger?
Guy: Yeah, and you have 32 types of ships and guns.
Neal: Wow, sounds neat.
Guy: Here's a link, get a copy for yourself and let's play. Been there, experienced that.

If I had any drawing skills, I'd make a "propaganda" picture featuring a battery of thousand AT guns firing a hail of rounds into a poor stone wall that's about to break down, with some frantic defenders behind it trying to repair it and keep it from being torn apart.

Then I'm going to have a speech bubble from some cannon go "oh, I'm just one gun".

Or maybe I could make a pic' of Dresden being bombed, and have one of the free-falling high explosives utter the "I'm just one being"-line.

[TDK1044]

Sure, Neal, but you're talking about the kind of 'shoot em up' games which are targeted at the largest demographic for game sales, males aged 16 to 30. My posting specifies Silent Hunter 3 and Silent Hunter 4, not the kind of nonsense that the 16 to 30 demographic would be out there buying. Most of the 'shoot em up' crowd wouldn't be seen dead with a Silent Hunter game.

The thieves who would work around the clock cracking the 'shoot em up' games do so because of the rewards that are out there because of the massive interest in acquiring those games, but the return on a world war 2 sub sim is going to be so minimal as to be hardly worth it. I think cracking SH3 was a lot more to do with giving Starforce the bird than anything else, and the reason most of the people who got SH3 did so legally had nothing to do with "because it had very strong copyprotection"....Starforce was a joke, the worst of both worlds... easy to crack and very intrusive on your system. I know somebody who purchased SH3 ( he showed me the receipt) and then cracked it for the hell of it because he hated Starforce. it took him 3 days. He's still running Silent Hunter 3 with no Starforce, and he has no intention at all of selling pirate copies of the game. His reason for the hack...In his words "I'm not having that s**t on my computer" I don't condone what he did, and I would never do it, but I sure understand it.

I hope that if we do get SH4 with copyprotection, it's a much better product than Starforce.

[Hylander_1314]

Why not make it so you have to register your game disk online, before playing it? And if you see an unauthorized number show up, or a repeat from a different machine in a whole different region, you'll be able to spot the pirated disk, and go from there.

Pirated disks are like buying stolen goods. Or better yet, counterfieting. There are international laws against it. That should hopefully curb some of the BS.

The only tough part is if you own more than one PC, and trying to load the game on all of them, or if you upgrade your rig, make sure you contact the owner of the software, so you can get the proper permission to do so.

There has to be a way of making it extremely hard to bootleg the software and not be a pain to the honest purchaser, or invasive to the honest purchaser's machine.

[Onkel Neal]

Why not make it so you have to register your game disk online, before playing it? And if you see an unauthorized number show up, or a repeat from a different machine in a whole different region, you'll be able to spot the pirated disk, and go from there.

Pirated disks are like buying stolen goods. Or better yet, counterfieting. There are international laws against it. That should hopefully curb some of the BS.

The only tough part is if you own more than one PC, and trying to load the game on all of them, or if you upgrade your rig, make sure you contact the owner of the software, so you can get the proper permission to do so.

There has to be a way of making it extremely hard to bootleg the software and not be a pain to the honest purchaser, or invasive to the honest purchaser's machine.

Yep, agreed. Virtually all gamers are connected to the web these days, that's a good solution.

After making my post I e-mail Michael Russell and got his comments on SF and dongles. Without posting his message, he was not thrilled with SF and felt dongles are prone to breakage (but of course, so are CDs...) Overall, he says the copyprotection must server the game maker without penalizing the user.

Neal

[fredbass]

Here's a link to what they'll not be doing.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060414-6603.html

[The Noob]

I know, ye shouldn't talk 'bout that kinda stuff here. but WTH.

[Onkel Neal]

You have read the forum agreement, right? :p

[Steeltrap]

Absolutely no problem with some form of 'protection' on games. The 'Starforce' experience must not recur, however - by which I mean their reaction to questions/allegations/calls for assistance.

Wasn't it HalfLife 2 which required accessing the internet to enable the game? Seems a good idea to me, or some USB insert as discussed.

[Immacolata]

Dont fool yourself into thinking that "little games" won't be cracked and pirated. They will. I read the interview with that SiN guy and his blog, and man, did that make me feel ashamed of ever having played a pirated game, you know, one of those "borrows" of a friend. Just little me, one gun, they'll never notice. Thing is, almost everything released is pirated by someone. No game too small, no shareware utility too obscure. You'll probably find someone who'd love to crack it for you. But I can see how piracy is ruining the pc games industry slowly and surely. I really hope Vista will help some of it. I have no idea how an OS can be any help against piracy, but if it could, we would probably be better off for it, consumers as developers.

[Gizzmoe]

But I can see how piracy is ruining the pc games industry slowly and surely.
That´s what the games industry says for 20 years now...

[Immacolata]

Well, causing grief and worry in the stomachs of the developers then. At least there is an easy remedy for those who care: buying the software :)

[TDK1044]

All points well made. Thanks to all. That's why I like and respect this forum so much; we can agree to disagree on a specific issue, but in the end we're all looking for games where we the users are rewarded by the quality of the games, and the game developers are rewarded for their efforts and are not ripped off by thieves. Some great points made here, Guys. Thanks.

[Highbury]

Hypothetical question, but a situation I know occured regularly...

Someone buys a copy of SHIII... before installing they read here or anywhere else that Starforce is causing many issues, but in the all too easily cracked, pirated copies Starforce has been removed (These appeared on the week of SHIII release). So this person gets themselves a pirated copy feeling that they have done thier part. They paid the developers, publishers etc etc for the work they put it. So one might believe they can have a clear concience.

Now you also have to understand that cracks are usually made by piracy 'groups' that run under one name or another. Do not fool yourself into thinking they do not try to monitor as best they can how much traffic is happening with thier ill-gotten goods. If nobody shares it, they probably will not bother with a similar title again.

I know of a few ppl who took this route to avoid Starforce. It is not right IMO and propigates piracy. But by the same token the software companies that want to protect thier hard work need to do so in an un-intrusive manner or they are shooting themselves in the foot. Will someone who bought SHIII, then had to download it to get what they felt was a safe copy bother to do the same for SHIV or just download it? I wonder with games that have a 1:5 purchase ratio, how many had an invasive or generally annoying CP system?

[TDK1044]

That was exactly the point my friend who cracked Starforce made to me. He'd paid his money to get SH111 delivered to him, but he wasn't prepared to let the copy protection software for that game impact on his system and effect other applications. He continues to run SH111 with no Starforce, but Ubisoft got paid.

My view is that if the copy protection software does its job relative to the game it's there to protect and does nothing beyond that then I have no issue with such programs, but when I find that my burn speed has been reduced by 50 percent on my video editing software because of Starforce, then I have an issue. In my case, I could demonstrate it by uninstalling Starforce and my burn speed was back to normal; as soon as I ran SH111 again my burn speed was reduced. That's unacceptable.

I do have to say that the later release of the updated Starfoce Drivers did cure my issue.

For me the issue is whether you intend to crack the game in order to distribute pirated software. That action should be condemned by all true simmers/gamers, but if you're cracking it to protect your system and the develpers got paid, it becomes a grey area.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, I'm glad SF will not be involved with SH4. Whether SF is effective, whether it is good/bad/damaging/benign… I cannot really say (but I certainly agree with their critics that SF has awful PR, lol). The developer Michael whom I sent an e-mail certainly thinks SF is problematic. But SF will not be on SH4, so I hope never to hear the words "Star Force" again. In English or any other language… :D

In the end, I'm just one of the Subsim community and a guy who really likes good submarine sims, a guy who supports the people who play them and the people who make them. My focus is on letting the devs know what we like and expect in a respectful and consistent manner and keeping the profile of subsim games up and positive so people will hear of them, buy them, and enjoy them. We sure don't want them to
disappear like tank and helo sims have. One thing I learned during the 4 year development of Silent Hunter 2… we are never more than a discouraged game exec away from losing the next subsim.

[mr chris]

Well, I'm glad SF will not be involved with SH4. Whether SF is effective, whether it is good/bad/damaging/benign… I cannot really say (but I certainly agree with their critics that SF has awful PR, lol). The developer Michael whom I sent an e-mail certainly thinks SF is problematic. But SF will not be on SH4, so I hope never to hear the words "Star Force" again. In English or any other language… :D

In the end, I'm just one of the Subsim community and a guy who really likes good submarine sims, a guy who supports the people who play them and the people who make them. My focus is on letting the devs know what we like and expect in a respectful and consistent manner and keeping the profile of subsim games up and positive so people will hear of them, buy them, and enjoy them. We sure don't want them to
disappear like tank and helo sims have. One thing I learned during the 4 year development of Silent Hunter 2… we are never more than a discouraged game exec away from losing the next subsim.


Well said Neal. :up:
Thanks very much for all the hard work you and others have put in so we / i the standard gamer still have ever advancing sub sims to play and enjoy and to look forward to in the future.
I tip my hat to you:arrgh!: :up: :up:

[TDK1044]

My appreciation to Neal and others like him also. I think it's very important that subsim games continue to be developed. I spent 25 years in the television industry and I think there's a television analogy here; the 'shoot em ups' are the major Networks and we subsimmers are the Discovery Channel. Long live The Discovery Channel.

[Immacolata]

My appreciation to Neal and others like him also. I think it's very important that subsim games continue to be developed. I spent 25 years in the television industry and I think there's a television analogy here; the 'shoot em ups' are the major Networks and we subsimmers are the Discovery Channel. Long live The Discovery Channel.

Pff. TDC is a piece of ****e these days. They became... commercial. Now its all fixing cars, game show like contests and having poofty guys making experiments to falsify urban legends. Alas. But even TDC must make a living I guess :cry:

[goldorak]

After making my post I e-mail Michael Russell and got his comments on SF and dongles. Without posting his message, he was not thrilled with SF and felt dongles are prone to breakage (but of course, so are CDs...) Overall, he says the copyprotection must server the game maker without penalizing the user.

Neal


Actually that phrase short of being hypocritical is an oxymoron.
The question is not whether or not copy protection penalizes the customer because it does in any case.
The point is how far do game companies want to push copy protection until gamers stop buying games ? ;)
This is one pratical way of looking at the problem, the other is to embrace stardock's philosophy.
And surely SD is selling tons of games (and its more of an exploit if you consider they are "niche" developers in the videogame market).
Sell the game with no copy protection, and conitnue developing patches (which add new content etc...) which require legitamate software to be installed.
Of course in the world of huge game companies who release one buggy game + one patch to fixes the bugs such an approach isn't practicable. :arrgh!:
The third way is to wait until the game hits the bargain bin without copyprotection, and that's how i bough x2 the threat and lock-on, less than 6$ each and without copyprotection.
I still hope to find sh 3 without copyprotection in the future in the bargain bin.
Until then no sh3 for me, nor sh 4. :x

[rls669]

I've got som decoys to upload to Kazaa:cool:.

Why? If someone's going to pirate something you think they're going to give up if they get your "decoy"? It won't deter them at all, it's not like it's a lot of work to just queue every version up for download and sort them out later. All you're accomplishing is adding to net congestion.

[Safe-Keeper]

I see rls has come across one of my decoys:p (kiddin').

it's not like it's a lot of work to just queue every version up for download and sort them out later.
If you've got a swift broadband connection, sure. Not everyone does.

And yes, it does deter people. Just trust me on that. Nothing like spending five hours downloading "Silent Hunter III" and realizing it's a zip file filled with huge, blank bitmap pictures or something.

[rls669]

I still say you're doing a lot more harm than good. It's on about the same level as driving an SUV 100 miles to take part in an environmental rally.