That's what it's all about...

[Skybird]

...., after all: conversion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/27/AR2006082700159.html


JERUSALEM, Aug. 27 -- Two Fox Television journalists held for 13 days in the Gaza Strip were released Sunday after they were shown on a videotape saying they converted to Islam.

Anyone knowing if they did it for reasons of real belief - or did it just instrumentally, to avoid getting murdered?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/world/27fox.ready.html?hp&ex=1156737600&en=528b74d12348112f&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Dowly]

No, I believe there has to be another reasons for their release. Who would be stupid enough to believe that one day the two hostages have converted to islam?? Isn´t it obvious? :lol: If I would be a hostage and facing possible execution, hell, I would say I´m a alien if they believed in one! :D

[The Avon Lady]

If I would be a hostage and facing possible execution, hell, I would say I´m a alien if they believed in one!
This brought back memories of an ancient email from over a decade ago:
> The following are useful phrases to know when
> travelling in the mideast:
>
> Akbar khali haftir - Thank you for showing me your
> lovely gun.
>
> Gabul gardan davat - I am delighted to accept your
> offer to lie down on the floor with my arms above my
> head and my legs crossed.
>
> Tamomeh gofteh - I agree with everythig you have ever
> said or thought in your life.
>
> Mano sepameh hast achman al hum - It is exceptionally
> kind of you to allow me to travel in the trunk of your
> car.
>
> Fashal el degat gof tam de la la - If you will do me
> the kindness of not harming my genital appendages I
> will gladly reciprocate by betraying my country in
> public.
>
> Maneh va jabil bis me allah - I will tell you the names
> and addresses of many American spies traveling as
> reporters.
>
> Bali Balli Ballii - Whatever you say!
>
> Gher mez ghor han el hum - The red blind fold would be
> lovely, excellency.
>
> Tineck ba ob khrellen va ino emir massa noir - The
> water-soaked bread crumbs are delicious, thank you. I
> must have the recipe.

[Dowly]

@Avon: :rotfl::rotfl:

[U-104]

:rotfl::rotfl:

[Rockstar]

They were probably paid off by the local iman

In the Qur'an we read:

"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of God; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by God, and God is full of knowledge and wisdom" [Surat at-Taubah 9:60; translation by Yusuf Ali]


The following is taken from the classical Muslim commentary on the Qur'an, Tafsir Ibn Kathir. The comment on Surah 9:60 states:

As for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to the Truth) they are in various divisions: some who were given (money) to convert to Islam, like when the Prophet Muhammad - Peace Be Upon Him - gave Safwan Bin Ummayah from the booty of the Battle of Hunayn, and he (Safwan Bin Ummayah) had fought in it as an infidel [Mushrik], ... Imam Ahmad said: Narrated Zakria bin Uddi, that Ibn Al-Mobarek said that Younis Al-Zahri from Saaid bin Al-Messyab from Safwan Bin Ummayah who said: "The Messenger - Peace Be Upon Him - gave me (money) on the Battle of Hunayn and he was one of the people I've hated most; he kept on giving me (money) until he became one of the people I've loved most." And some of them are given (money) to better their Islam and strengthen their faith in their hearts, like when he (Muhammad) gave on the Battle of Hunayn a group of the lowest of the released prisoners and the most noble of them one hundred camels each, and he (Muhammad) said, "Giving a man and others (money) is lovable (by me) because I'm afraid that Allah would throw him (the infidel) on his face into the hell fire." And in the Sahihayn (meaning Bukhari and Muslim) narrated Ibn Sa'eed, that Ali sent to the Prophet - Peace Be Upon Him - with a gold piece in it's soil from Yemen, so he (Muhammad) divided it between four people: Al-Aqra' Bin Al-Habis, Ayyinah Bin Badr, Alqamah Bin Oulathah, and Zayd Al-Khayr, and he (Muhammad) said, "Atta'alafuhum = I'm reconciling their hearts to the truth", some of them are given (money) to collect the charity from those close to them, and some of them are given money to protect the Muslims from attacks at the corners of the countries.

[August]

This reminds me of a story i once heard:



It took years of hints, suggestions and finally outright threats, but old Joe was finally convinced to convert to Catholicsm by his neighbors.

At the baptism ceremony on Sunday the priest said "Joe, you were born a Protestant and you were raised a Protestant, but with this annointing you are now a Catholic."

The following friday his neighbors noticed the smell of cooking meat wafting from Joes back yard. Their curiosity aroused, they finally peeked over the fence where they saw Joe barbequing several large venison steaks.

As the neighbors debated the scandalous heresy of a recently converted Catholic eating meat on a friday, Joe was heard to say: "You were born a deer, you were raised a deer, but with this annointing you are now a fillet of sole."

[tycho102]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when......

Giving up protein was a significant issue. Man, it was like meercats on friday. You were hunting meat 24/7 because that sh*t was tough to find.

Meat was something significant to forfeit.

As for those "journalists", I don't blame them for accepting da'wa at the edge of a sword. Gun. At the edge of a gun. I'd have done the same thing. That's how islam has been spread for one thousand, four hundred, thirty years (1430). By the edge of a sword.

Gun. By the edge of a gun. Rifle. Kalashnikov. Whatever. Didn't that guy just put out his own brand of vodka, for the Sake of Christ?

There are two sides to this issue:

1. Those guys say they were coerced. This puts a strain on any other journalist AP/AFP/Reuters bastard that gets caught. How do the jihadists know they are being sincere in their acceptance of da'wa?

2. They will be assassinated as apostates for turning against their Religion. Praise Allah. Allah is Greatest.

[TteFAboB]

Joe was heard to say: "You were born a deer, you were raised a deer, but with this annointing you are now a fillet of sole."

This is what a Jewish friend does to his prohibited meat, blesses before eating.

[Yahoshua]

Blessing dead food on a plate? :rotfl:

Sry, I just don't see the sense in that.

[August]

Blessing dead food on a plate? :rotfl:

Sry, I just don't see the sense in that.

Obviously you've never had a touch of food poisoning...

[The Avon Lady]

Blessing dead food on a plate? :rotfl:

Sry, I just don't see the sense in that.
Judaism's view of blessings (http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Lively_Introduction_to_Blessings.asp). :know:

[Yahoshua]

I'm familiar with the traditional view of blessings, but the point in case being who/what is being blessed.

Blessing dead food on a plate vs Blessing the almighty for providing us this food and allowing us to live long enough to eat it.

That's more of what struck me as funny at the time.

Are you religiously observant Avon?

[The Avon Lady]

Are you religiously observant Avon?
:yep:

[Yahoshua]

I'm more or less learning the ropes as I go......

[Ishmael]

If I would be a hostage and facing possible execution, hell, I would say I´m a alien if they believed in one!
This brought back memories of an ancient email from over a decade ago:
> The following are useful phrases to know when
> travelling in the mideast:
>
> Akbar khali haftir - Thank you for showing me your
> lovely gun.
>
> Gabul gardan davat - I am delighted to accept your
> offer to lie down on the floor with my arms above my
> head and my legs crossed.
>
> Tamomeh gofteh - I agree with everythig you have ever
> said or thought in your life.
>
> Mano sepameh hast achman al hum - It is exceptionally
> kind of you to allow me to travel in the trunk of your
> car.
>
> Fashal el degat gof tam de la la - If you will do me
> the kindness of not harming my genital appendages I
> will gladly reciprocate by betraying my country in
> public.
>
> Maneh va jabil bis me allah - I will tell you the names
> and addresses of many American spies traveling as
> reporters.
>
> Bali Balli Ballii - Whatever you say!
>
> Gher mez ghor han el hum - The red blind fold would be
> lovely, excellency.
>
> Tineck ba ob khrellen va ino emir massa noir - The
> water-soaked bread crumbs are delicious, thank you. I
> must have the recipe.

You forgot the phrase they probably used:

Ila Allah Illalah(hope my spelling is correct)

There is no God but God

Be sure to keep fingers firmly crossed behind your back.

In late 1978, I was offered a job by Raytheon to train the Shah of Iran's navy in weapons system & ASW operations in Bandar Abbas. I turned the job down because I had already been to Bandar Abbas & knew what it was like. Had I taken the job, I fould have been the 53rd hostage telling everybody what a great guy I thought Khomeini was. Just give me that plane ticket and I'll go back & tell everybody. Either that or doing the backstroke across the Hormus Straits to Oman.

[The Avon Lady]

...., after all: conversion.
Back on topic and in great detail, here's Robert Spencer's new article Fox News and Forced Conversions (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=24135).

[Konovalov]

You forgot the phrase they probably used:

Ila Allah Illalah(hope my spelling is correct)

There is no God but God

Be sure to keep fingers firmly crossed behind your back.

We say "Laa Ilaha Illallah" which translates into "There is no lord worthy of worship except Allah." This is only half of the Shahada (Kalima). In full the Shahada is as follows:

"Ashhadu Alla Ilaha Illa Allah Wa Ashhadu Anna Muhammad Rasulu Allah."

This translates into "I bear witness that there is no deity other than Allah (swt) and that Muhammad (saw) is his servant and Messenger."

On a side note you may be asking why I follow the name of Allah with (swt) and Muhammad with (saw). They are basically terms of respect and reverence for God (in the case of S.W.T.), and for all of the prophets (in the case of S.A.W.) which Muhammad (saw) was the last.

S.W.T. is short for "Subhanahu wa ta'ala" which basically means "praised and exalted is he."

S.A.W. is short for "Salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam" which translates into "May the blessings and the peace of Allah be upon him. Muslims use this when addressing all of the prophets including Moses, Jesus, Abraham, Mohammad, Adam, and Noah.

[Konovalov]

They were probably paid off by the local iman

I think you mean to say imam. Iman is what we use to describe ones faith or firm inner beliefs. In Islam there are 6 fundamental articles of faith or iman.

:know:

[Konovalov]

Blessing dead food on a plate? :rotfl:

Sry, I just don't see the sense in that.
Judaism's view of blessings (http://www.aish.com/literacy/mitzvahs/Lively_Introduction_to_Blessings.asp). :know:

Before eating we simply say "Bismillah" which means "In the name of Allah."

On the article you linked to regarding blessings it is in principle the same in Islam which is outlined in the 6th article of iman (faith). We believe that all things come from Allah (swt). So if something good happens then we should thank Allah (swt). As is said in the Holy Qu'ran, Al-Imran Surah 3 Ayah 103:

"And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah."

[The Avon Lady]

if something good happens then we should thank Allah (swt).
Judaism has a blessing for bad things (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Random_Suffering$.asp) as well.

[Konovalov]

if something good happens then we should thank Allah (swt).
Judaism has a blessing for bad things (http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Random_Suffering$.asp) as well.

As does Islam because all things come from G_d. :yep:

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't care what they say; I like onions.

[Skybird]

Blessings nice and well, but when the cook makes a bad job, dinner nevertheless is messed up, no matter the blessing. Instead of mumbling magical spells, better learn cooking (that's why your deity of choice probably has granted you that ability to learn to cook). Instead of expecting a deity to fix what you mess up, learn to do better yourself. Help yourself, than your idol helps you, or not, it doesn't matter. Brake it yourself, and it remains broken. Superstitious rituals - while holding them, more than one cup of coffee grew cold in history. I hate cold coffee.

[The Avon Lady]

Blessings nice and well, but when the cook makes a bad job, dinner nevertheless is messed up, no matter the blessing. Instead of mumbling magical spells, better learn cooking (that's why your deity of choice probably has granted you that ability to learn to cook). Instead of expecting a deity to fix what you mess up, learn to do better yourself. Help yourself, than your idol helps you, or not, it doesn't matter. Brake it yourself, and it remains broken. Superstitious rituals - while holding them, more than one cup of coffee grew cold in history. I hate cold coffee.
When did you taste my cooking? :shifty:

[Konovalov]

@ Skybird,

I wasn't aware that you were of the strange view that Jews, Christians, Muslims and so on mumble magical spells at dinnertime. :lol: :lol:

Relax Bird of the Sky. :sunny:

[Skybird]

You humans are too credulous!

In Vayrajana (Tibetan Buddhism), they have four lineages, each of which has it'S own master-Buddhist. for the Gelupas it is the famous Dalai Lama. For the Kagyupas, it is the so-called Karmapa. When a Karmapa died in past time, it was a habit to burn his body, which is okay for me. But that after the fire is out, followers searched desperately the ashes to find pieces of small bones, declare them a holy relic and a.) spend the rets of their life worshipping it, or b.) sell it for riodiculous sums of money to easy-minded believers, is not okay and in fact brings the whole idea of a fire for funeral to collapse. Magical rituals, superstitious nonsens.

Your Gods, so you believe, have created you, so they have given you all your abilities and potentials. If they do so, do you think they depend on you little worms saying thanks? What value could it have to them, if you appreciate their deeds, or not? Do you think they have given you your human abilities and creative sparks, your mind to learn and think reasonably and your body to make physical perceptions and get you moving around - for wasting all this and even reject it for making your "spiritual" gymnastics every day? Is your idea of God so limited and small that you think He even cares for your pathetic little efforts? Do you think your God is a character written and designed by some hysteric screenplay writer for a hysteric daily soap? that has to obey your own moral rules? What if your God turns out to be a man-eater - still worhsipping him? How small, how little, how unimportant, how meaningless you Gods appear to me. - If you want to worship what is Devine to you, live your life to the fullest, use the gifts and potentials given to you, and make something of it and use it to the best of yourself and the best of all men. Don't allow your potentials being limited by your man-thought little "religion", close your holy books and burn them for they are manmade things only, no trace of holiness in them, resist all doings that leads to the harm of others, fight those that violate this law, and never stop to be what you are: a human being, great in mind and possebility of self-reflection, each one unique in itself and still embraced by all that is not himself, capable to do what is of light, or what is of shadow - the choice and the karmic consequences are yours.

You people are suffering from a serious lack of self-confidence, and try to compensate that by following a self-declared superior morality. But you have all what you ever could need already inside you, since always, for always. If only you would know! All the shine is inside of you!

When I was a schoolboy, age 17, I think, I had written a certain poem. Maybe I shouldn't have written it at all, for it caused me quite some trouble, but I did, and this is it - some basic ideas always have been on my mind, since my early childhood, it seems.

Sind wirklich Welten vergangen in meinem Leben,
in all jenen Meeren aus Leere und silberner Sterne Schein?
Ich folgte Kometen, Asteroidenschwärmen,
umkreiste in tausend Millarden Jahren das Universum -
wie lang hast du gebraucht, o Seele,
die richtigen Fragen zu stellen?

Denn uns ist gewährt die kosmische Schau
mit blinden Augen -
nicht zu blenden vom Gleiss unzähliger Sonnen.
Und doch wolln wir zählen der Welten Funken,
sie greifen und halten wie wenn's Glühwürmchen wärn,
in einer lauen Spätsommernacht.

Wie gross unser Geist,doch wie klein unser Handeln!
Schaut auf zu den Himmeln:
die Nova von Auriga
scheint uns Hundert Tausend Jahre.
Und säh' sie der Menschen Wimmeln,
wie's sich närrisch zu seinen Göttern erhebt,
blickte sie auf zu den Sternen,
und es berührte sie nicht.
Weil wir nicht richten unser Tun
am kosmischen Wandel,
hörn wir im Hintergrund gutmütig
des Universums schallendes Lachen...!

Die Welt ist ein Traum, den sie träumt,
und so wir denn finden, was wir suchen,
werden wir nicht länger mehr sein.
Weil wir denn folgten dem Ruf der Sterne,
sei uns auch schließlich der Mut gewährt,
zwischen ihnen
uns selbst
gegenüberzutreten.

[The Avon Lady]

Skybird, suggested reading: Letters to a Buddhist Jew (http://www.amazon.com/Letters-a-Buddhist-Jew/dp/1568713568/sr=8-1/qid=1156953601/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3315969-5944002?ie=UTF8).

Your concept of other religions - certainly Judaism - is mangled. And that's an understatement.

[Takeda Shingen]

Interesting. Skybird brings the self-professed sanctity of faith into direct conflict with the hedonism of Nietzchean thought. Dare it be that a discussion of philosophy follows? There may yet be hope for this thread.

[Skybird]

takeda,

Hedonism in Nietzschean thought? :lol: Never thought of Nietzsche in that way. How came that to your mind? Nietzsche certainly is diverse, somewhat, and easy to misunderstood. In case of doubt, his "Zarathustra", the first two books, represents most of what I like in him.

AL,

i never talked about the philosophy of "ideal" Judaism, because I simply do not know much about it. But i see that on a superficial level, all religions seem to have a serious weakness of getting absorbed by the dogma, the rites and ceremonies, the hierarchy of priests, all that for the interests of an institution like the churches. Here is where the religions stray off the path that had been pointed by some historic personalities like Siddharta or Jesus. This "outer", or "exoteric" level is what usually is meant when we say "this religion", "that religion". And this is the level at which my attack is aiming, that's why I attacked the discussion about the benefit of this or that kind of blessing and how it is done correctly - it all is the empty, dead, frozen cult, the religion that has nothing to do with religion.

And no, I do not discuss that again. You had those 25 pages "What it's about", if you wanted, and more I do not have to say on that theme. I would end up just repeating myself.

[Takeda Shingen]

Yes, I was giving a very simplistic rendering of Nietzsche, paraphrasing from Zarathustra, most specifically in the chapter, On Chastity, where the point is largely, "Have sex if you want to. Don't have sex if you don't want to. What difference does either make?" This is opposed to most religious philosophy.

[TteFAboB]

When I read Skybird's post I am immediately transported to an African village in the middle of nowhere and stand watching as people in front of me practice strange rituals, dance, fire, drum beats, an old man pinches a little cloth doll. The ground is dry, cracked. It mustn't have rained in a long time.

Well, we need to go to the 25 page thread and search for something to fill the holes left by the AL and Konovalov. They have displayed plenty of self-confidence by remaining unshaken, unaffected, by this "attack". It could be that I need it myself, but I'm sending this gift to Skybird nonetheless:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6715/sniper20scoperw2.jpg

I know he uses a bow, but unlike those people in the African savannah, he'll be able to put it to a good use.

[Skybird]

It was a 25 pages document, not a thread. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95144 I don't get what I need that telescope or NVG for (what is it? Looks like a mirror telescope to me). And why should I use a bow in the middle of Africa?

[TteFAboB]

To aim better. If the AL or Konovalov do not regard their rituals as you do, then there's a problem somewhere. Either you are right and they are so illuded they cannot even see it, or your theory that would apply to African voo-doo people does not apply to them in fact. Or I should step down from this ladder and stop trying to look at things from above.

You can use your bow anywhere and perhaps hit better with that aiming device. Unlike ritualistic people who wander about waiting for the actions of their gods, begging them to make rain instead of improving their techniques (technology, mapping, etc.), you'd use the telescope to scout better and find a source of water quicker.