Some moral questions by a German...

[sordid]

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.
Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

[Frenssen]

To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

[stabiz]

Hi there, sordid!

I dont have any problems with playing as a german in any WW2 games. I dont see the difference between the german and the allied soldier, they both did what they saw as their duty at the time.

Personally I PREFER playing the german side, as they (in my opinion) had the superior tools in pretty much every part of the army. We are after all playing games, not invading countries.

It is such a long time since WW2 now, that I think Germans can stop feeling bad for what happened in the war(s). I dont say that we should forget, but we can move on.

I am Norwegian, so my country was invaded by the Third Reich, but that doesn`t mean that I am not impressed by the technical provess of the German army.

The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp. A game like that will never be made, of course.


PS: Your English is far from bad!

[Frenssen]

Wargames is a way of trying cool military epuipment without the human suffering. With the knowledge we have today I don`t think there many who romanticize war

[sordid]

Stabiz,

that idea "The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp." is very interesting. I never saw it that way.

"A game like that will never be made, of course." - absolutely wrong, mate.
There used to be a game called "KZ Manager" on the C64. Even when putting away the moral aspect, this game was also technically complete crap, yet some sick people were horribly enjoying it.

[sordid]

Wargames is a way of trying cool military epuipment without the human suffering.
:lol:
Great attitude!
Now where the hell did I tow my 688???

[Safe-Keeper]

For a long time I thought exactly in that way you wrote about: I stayed away from World War II games and definetly never played as one of the Axis powers. I think it might have had to do with 9/11 making the horrors of war and mass death bit more real to me (I lived in Houston at the time), though I don't know. And I'm looking forward to playing as the US in the next game, and I still prefer to play as the "good guys" [for lack of a better way of putting it:roll:] in most reality-based games. I jump straight to the evil Galactic Empire whenever a Star Wars game gets within my reach, though.

The important point is that in any wargame we play as the soldier - the average man on the battlefield - the scenario would be totally different if there was a game where you played as the commander of a consentration camp. A game like that will never be made, of course.Sadly, there are many racist/Nazistic/surpremacist games out there, some of them revolving around death camps. No mainstream ones, though, a fact for which I am exceedingly grateful.

[sordid]

I jump straight to the evil Galactic Empire whenever a Star Wars game gets within my reach, though.
Aye, same here.
In fantasy games, the nice guys bore me to death - I always prefer to slay them.
But when it's getting historic, I really have problems playing as a German.

Actually weird - I'd rather shoot my virtual grandpa than anybody else.

[Eichenlaub]

Hi there,

Well, where to start?

I play just about all of my sims from the German perspective. I've played that way for about 10-12 years now. Doesn't mean I wouldn't play as an Allied commander at all, I will happily play an American commander in SHIV for instance (Dutch would be better of course).

My first person shooters are usually Allied, but when multiplaying, I let the choice of weapons decide which side I'm on - if I want a tommygun I'll go Allied, if I want a Sturmgewehr, I'll go Axis. I happily mowed down tons of German infantry and armour in MOHAA, Call of Duty and Return to Wolfenstein. Didn't bother me either.

When I first started playing simulations (flight mostly), I generally played from the Allied side. There were very few games around in the late eighties and early nineties that would allow a German perspective anyway, but mostly because during that era I was still walking around with a pair of anti-German glasses.
When I was around 15 years of age, I got inspired to check out why certain things happened the way they did. I wondered why any German would want to fight for Hitler or the Kaiser. Stories about Allied exploits were easy to come by, but finding good stuff on German personnel was a tad more challenging. Eventually I read so much about the actual fighting men (focussing on Luftwaffe and kriegsmarine) of that war, I began to see some answers.

One answer is that not everything is black and white. People fight wars for various reasons and the reasons that are popularized in history aren't always the actual ones. There's a broad spectrum of reasons that explain why people still fought for Hitler. Having acquired that broader scope, I feel I can play a game as a submariner without disrespecting the war casualties.

What appeals to me about air and sea operations, is the un-personal flavour of combat: you generally find yourself shooting at a ship or plane, not a man. This was true in real wars too. Furthermore, sea and air warriors have always been forced to not only deal with the enemy, but also with the elements, which is a futher bond between enemies. It explains why there is more camaraderie between navy and air force personnel of opposing nations than between say, opposing infantrymen.

Then there is the blood attached to a particular service: the Luftwaffe has some but the Kriegsmarine is virtually spotless (in actual sea operations, I don't know how they rated as regular troops).

Don't forget the game aspect: simulations are in the end merely games designed to create a feeling and to entertain. It's entertaining doing something on your pc you could otherwise never have done in real life - or maybe never even wanted to in the first place.

Being the underdog can be attractive. It is interesting to see whether you could change history or whether the underdogs really stood a chance to begin with. Seeing as Germany lost both wars, they must be considered the underdog in simulation games.

Having read of the magnificent performance of the German Jagdflieger and submariners, I always enjoy comparing myself to them in simulation games. It would be unrealistic to have a score of 100+ aerial victories as an American, but about 105 Germans managed to do so. Likewise, no American submariner ever made it to 200,000 tons of shipping. I think that the German soldiers fought a tougher war because they had to keep on fighting until:
1) the war ended
2) they were killed
3) they were too wounded to continue fighting

All in all their odds were bad. As a Brit or American fighting man, you'd have a chance to retire from combat after some time. To the Germans, the term "tour of duty" did not exist. It's unimaginably difficult to survive almost 6 years of combat while any supremacy in numbers and material that may have existed in 1939-41 was gradually dwindling away.

Like someone else said: playing with the better tools is fun too. In all aspects of warfare Germany developed some technology that was very impressive and highly advanced. Think of the Stg.44, the Panther tank, the Type XXI submarine, the Me262, the V2, etc. It's fun to feel superior in your Panzerkampfwagen V when you espy a quartet of M4 Shermans 3 kilometres away... I gloat when I catch a convoy in 1940 with only two escorts while sailing in my fully loaded VIIB. I love it when my heavily armed Fw190 gets down on the deck, just below an IL-2 Sturmovik and blows it to bits without having to fear return fire.
It's just fun. I also enjoyed Silent Service II, destroying half the Japanese fleet, or flying a Spitfire in 1940.

All of the above explains why "fighting for the Germans" can be appealing.

For the record: I accept submarine warfare as a legitimate type of combat and don't buy the "U-boat men were killing helpless civilians on merchants and are thus war criminals" line I get to hear every now and then. You don't have to be in the armed forces to be part of a war machine.

Your question was valid and I don't think you've offended any one here. I hope my long answer can satisfy your curiosity somewhat. I think many people here will agree with at least some if not all of my points.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[StanUK]

Hi sordid,

Concerning just SHIII, I knew very little of the German Navy and U-Boats before playing. However after getting hooked it got me interested in the history and I have spent a lot of time reading books and websites about u-boats and the people who commanded and sailed in them. For me, its been a great experience and I have learnt a lot about what the German sailors went through and what they achieved.

Therefore I have no problems with playing the side of the Germans as I feel that the game has allowed me to understand a part of history a little better and prompted me to learn more.

Cheers

Stan.

ps. I am English and your English is very good :)

pps. Eichenlaub a very good read :)

[stabiz]

"A game like that will never be made, of course." - absolutely wrong, mate.
There used to be a game called "KZ Manager" on the C64. Even when putting away the moral aspect, this game was also technically complete crap, yet some sick people were horribly enjoying it.

:huh: What the hell?

[VonHelsching]

Although I come from a country that (among many others) suffered greatly in WWII, I don´t mind playing a computer game on the Axis side. I wouldn´t even mind if this game had an option for switching between dynamic and non dynamic campaign, and you had a chance to change history.

In the end it´s just a game and most of us are here for the challenge.

In the beginning I had no clue about naval and uboat warfare, but this game made me read history books, saw documantaries and visited websites, something that made me wiser. In how many games can you attribute this thing? My best guess is really not too many.

Silent Hunter III handled the era gameplay-wise excellent: You change sub types, new technology, torpedos, the AI gets harder / has comparable technology / better airforce as time passes by, and eventually the war is lost. The Atlantic is the perfect set up for a challenging game

[Dowly]

1. It´s the only WWII subsim around (with good graphics and stuff)
2. For me Kriegsmarine and Third Reich are like to separate countries, AFAIK (correct me if I´m wrong) the uboats got orders from BdU, as the land forces got their orders direcly from Hitler.

So, I´m having no problems playing as a german uboat commander. IMO, they were the most honorable section of the whole german army at that time. And before anyone says "Yea, but they killed innocent civilians!", sorry, but that´s war. The commanders didnt go knock the ships doors just to see if it´s full of soldiers or civilians.

And if someone still insists that they are bad because they killed civilians, I point them towards Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Stalin etc. :up:

[SkvyWvr]

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.

Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

I enjoy playing the German side because of their supeior equiptment and tactics. The German general staff was the best in the world and their achievements on the battlefield were spectacular especially when you consider that they fought most of the war with one hand tide behind their back because of Hitler. Notice I said "German" not Nazi. The true German solider fought with honor. The horrible acts of a few thousand should never be allowed to overshadow this fact.

[kiwi_2005]

Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

I play because i like submarines thats it really. If SH3 was a Japanese campaign i would think no different in playing it. And also the thrill of playing the bad guys makes the game more interesting. For instance how many First person shooters do you come across where you can get to be the germans, for example Call of Duty 1 & 2 you played as allies only, Vietcong 2 you play as US but you got to play as the Vietcong in a short campaign which was a better campaign out of the two. Theirs not many games where you can be a german soldier and see his side of the story. I think developers dont want to go down that road yet they should.

I would like to see a First Person Shooter where you played as the "Waffen SS Hitlers Black Guard" Yet they made the gameplay character slowly change thoughout the game, although these black guards were like robots that obeyed all orders no matter how gruesome they might be, your character you played through out the game slowly realised what he had got himself into. He had emotions - questioning his role as a SS, etc., He might be ordered to take out a whole polish village, with emotions running high you got choices to either shoot them all or let em go etc., And the ending was the cliff hanger, you died refusing a order. And it left you feeling worn out once finsihed. The game really hit your emotions. I would like to see that in a game. I mean if they can bring out games where you play as a gang member (GTA San Adreas) and run over ppl, beat ppl up including females, shoot civilians etc., then why not a game such as mentioned?

Anyways being able to play as the germans and in uboats is blardy brilliant!:arrgh!:

[Redwine]

Well... how to explain in bad english....

Do not confuse german warriors with nazis... too much of them fight to protect their women and childs not for the Fuerer.

The german submarine forces rise up respect and admiration, for the sacrifice and the troubles they must to overpass to defend their country.

Their courage rise up respect on many people.

Personally i like submarine simulation, so i enjoy to play SH3 the same as SH1. I dont hate americans or british or japanese.

Puting at side some isolated cases of german and americans shooting survivors, their develope their job with courage and honor.

Many captains has onboard "political marshalls" because they was not considered "trusted" by nazis.

Sadly with this F@#$% WXP i cant play any more SH1 :damn: .
I cant believe why a XP installation is not released !

Will be good to have SH4 where we can choice american or japanese side.

War is a hell, but sadly is near to a "natural humanity condition" from we live into a cave. It is just part of reality, you like it or not.

I think so... the german campaign of the Alantic, and the american/japanese campaign of the Pacific are an example for future warriors of any country, disregarding politics flags....

[slow_n_ez]

It really doesn't matter to me what side of a game I play on ... I try to engross myself in the role I find myself playing and in this case a Kaptain of a U-Boat following orders from my commander ..... Everytime I sink a ship weather a merchant or a warship I always watch and hope that everyone made it in the water or at least a life raft and didn't go down with the ship .... I am out to destroy the enemy's infastructure not kill people , however , I know some die at first torpedo impact ...............


edit:
@ Redwine > http://www.subsowespac.org/sh_xp/silent_hunterxp.shtml

[enaceo]

I never think to much about whose side I play in WW2 games.It is just a game.I would have no problem playing as an axis land soldier,navy troop,tank commander ...nor would I have anything against playing as an american ,english,polish,french,insert-country-here soldier or commander or something.What happened has already happened and we can not change it.The axis forces killed a lot of people,yes,but so did the allies didn't they?I would also not have a problem playing as an axis troop in games like COD (I was kind of dissapointed that you could play an american ,an english and a russian soldier,but the axis side was a no-no).As long as everything you shoot/destroy/bomb is just a bunch of pixels with colour on them ,I don't think it is "wrong" in a way.
On the market,WW2 games are almost all the time separated in 2 groups
1.Games like COD,Castle Wolfenstine ....which include only the allies ->this type probably includes most of the games .And
2.Games that also have axis-involvement,but no "toe-to-toe" games,like someone metioned(the IL-2 series,our beloved SH series,Codename:Panzers and other great games like these ones).
I personally think that it would be very interesting and a completely new experience to play a game as both an allied footsoldier and an axis footsoldier.The ordinary axis soldier had nothing personally to do with Hitler.He just followed his orders.He had nothing with the Jews,or with the westerners.I would personally enjoy a game from this perspective very very much.

[Lovro]

I dont realy care which side I am playing- but I enjoy german side bacause it it so rare in PC gaming- there are 10000 games where you are the "hero" fighting against the evil nazi germans. I realy hate the kind of games which portrait the common german grunt as a bloodthisty animal:down:. In fact any war game/movie where one side is just bad. In reality there wasnt a big diffrence betwen US soldier or a german one. They both fought for their country because they were told to. The diffrence was in the leadership and their plans where it is clear who was the aggresor but looking it the other way the gratest people in history could also be portrait similar to hitler- Caesar, Alexander the great, Napoleon which all tryed to counquer the world. In their time zhey were hated by their foes who crushed them but in time history forgets this things and they are now remembered as great. I'm not saying hitler was great (expecially with his racial crap) but you'll see that with time public oppinion of him will rise in fact it is allready if you take a closer look.
BTW our country fought against him.

[STEED]

Sordid, I have no problem playing WW2 Sims, after all it's not real. OK, they are based on actual events of WW2 and some people may find that offencive but I think that's a little over the top. And at the end of the day it's only a game.

[The Noob]

Hello sordid (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=227124).

First of all, Hallo Landsmann. Alles Leiwand? :D (Styrian Here. Yeah, your German, but WTH).

And now, on Topic:

I play Germans. In WW2 games. To Land, Sea, and Air. And, as a side note, i'm Communist. Still i have no moral problems. Why? Because i don't play a Nazi, i play a normal soldier.
There is no game were you Play a "True Nazi". And thats a Good thing.:yep:

And, (Yeah i know that was postet like 20 times already) it's just a Game.

I am with Lovro in this matter.
I don't want to get Anti-American again, but it is just lame to play the American-Super-Hero for the 1000 time. Well, maybe not for Americans....

Give me Ruskies or Krauts for a change and i'm Pleased. At least in 1 Game per Year...:roll:;)

My Opinion. :smug:

[Spaxspore]

Well... how to explain in bad english....

Do not confuse german warriors with nazis... too much of them fight to protect their women and childs not for the Fuerer.

The german submarine forces rise up respect and admiration, for the sacrifice and the troubles they must to overpass to defend their country.

Their courage rise up respect on many people.


Exactly what i was going to say, dont confuse the SS/NAZIs with the regular german army/airforce/navy. In fact as early as 1939 german army generals planned on assasinating hitler, however due to his victories he was to popular at the time. They tried later in 1944 and failed, a couple of the generals commited sucide, Rommel was among the ones who ploted and was basically forced to commit sucide to protect his family.

So no i dont think all germans who particpated in WW2, knew or particapted in the death camps ect. If they did it was proably just whispered rummors. Heck people living in towns/cities less then 5miles away say (dont know if they were telling the truth or not) that they never knew of the camps.

From Wikipedia
"The plot against Hitler

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/90/LangRugeSpeidelRommel_May1944.jpg/250px-LangRugeSpeidelRommel_May1944.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LangRugeSpeidelRommel_May1944.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LangRugeSpeidelRommel_May1944.jpg)
May 1944, Rommel (right) with his closest staff members: (L to R), his personal aide Captain Hellmuth Lang (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hellmuth_Lang&action=edit), his chief naval aide Admiral Friedrich Ruge (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Friedrich_Ruge&action=edit), and his chief of staff General Hans Speidel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Speidel), all of whom were heavily involved in the anti-Nazi conspiracy within the Wehrmacht.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Erwin_rommel_death.jpg/250px-Erwin_rommel_death.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Erwin_rommel_death.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Erwin_rommel_death.jpg)
A memorial at the site of Field Marshall Erwin Rommel's suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide) outside of the town of Herrlingen, Baden-Württemberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg), Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) (west of Ulm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm)).


On July 17 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_17), 1944 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944) Rommel's staff car was strafed by an RCAF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Air_Force) Spitfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire) (piloted by Charley Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Fox)), and he was hospitalized with major head injuries. (However, Rommel always maintained that the aircraft had been American) In the meantime, after the failed July 20 Plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot) against Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) a major crackdown was conducted throughout the Wehrmacht. As the investigation proceeded, numerous connections started appearing that tied Rommel with the conspiracy, in which many of his closest aides were deeply involved. At the same time, local Nazi party officials reported on Rommel's extensive and scornful criticism of Nazi leadership during the time he was hospitalized. Bormann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Bormann) was certain of Rommel's involvement, Goebbels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels) was not.
The true extent of Rommel's knowledge of, or involvement with, the plot is still unclear. After the war, however, his wife maintained that Rommel had been against the plot as it was carried out. It has been stated that Rommel wanted to avoid giving future generations of Germans the perception that the war was lost because of backstabbing, the infamous Dolchstoßlegende (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchsto%C3%9Flegende), as it was commonly believed by some Germans following WWI. Instead, he favored a coup where Hitler would be taken alive and made to stand trial before the public.
Recent evidence however, seems to indicate that Rommel was aware of the July 20 plot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_plot) and the intentions of Claus von Stauffenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg) but was cautious to avoid participation not merely because of the chance of repeating the 'November Criminals' fable. He was all too aware of the crudity and poorly organised nature of the plot, and the slim chance of the Western Allies accepting a separate peace. He thus took an objective and realistic attitude towards the planned coup against Hitler and his cabinet, though for all his forbearance and cautious nature he still fell foul of Hitler's growing paranoia and petty hatred towards the Prussian officer caste. It was even reported that shortly after Rommel regained consciousness following his accident that he confided to his son in private "Stauffenberg botched his plans, but a front line officer would have finished Hitler off".
Because of Rommel's popularity with the German people, Hitler gave him an option to commit suicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide) with cyanide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide) or face a humiliating sham trial before Roland Freisler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_Freisler)'s "People's Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksgerichtshof)" and the murder of his family and staff. Rommel ended his own life on October 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_14), 1944 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1944), and was buried with full military honours. After the war his diary was published as The Rommel Papers. He is the only member of the Third Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Reich) establishment to have a museum dedicated to his person and his career. His grave can be found in Herrlingen, a short distance west of Ulm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulm)."

[Redwine]

edit:
@ Redwine > http://www.subsowespac.org/sh_xp/silent_hunterxp.shtml

Many many thanks Slownez... but i attempt that two times unsucessful :-?

It is a little bit complex.

May be because i have a windows 95 not DOS SH1 Commander version...

[Sailor Steve]

I'm an American, born in 1950, so I grew up with the attitude that Allies are good guys, Germans and Japanese are evil. Of course I know that people are people everywhere, but that was the way books and movies of my youth showed the war.

I play games with miniatures on a tabletop, and somebody has to play both sides. I enjoy air war sims, and I'll play any side. For me the thing is I like the machinery. I love the Mustang and Thunderbolt, but I also love the Bf-109 and Mitsubishi Reisen ('Zero'). Likewise U-boats were awesome weapons, and commanding one is every bit as intrigueing as commanding any American sub. The locations (starting ports) are interesting places that I'll probably never get to visit in real life, and the action is different and yet similar at the same time.

In air and naval combat people still die, but it's usually abstract: you're there to shoot the other guy's plane down, not to kill him personally. That's why stories of people actually shooting at parachutes are few and far between. It's the same with ships: you sink ships, you help survivors. Again, there are stories of sailors shooting the enemy in the water, but not many stories like that.

You're point about land-based units, especially individual soldiers, is the main reason I don't normally play those kind of games. I wanted to fly planes, I wanted to be on a ship, but I have never wanted to be a foot-soldier, in any army.

[HunterICX]

In WW2 games I mostly pick the german side for some reasons
*they impressed me what they have achieved as an Army
*Their Tools where far more advanced then the allies
*They have lost the war and so its an challenge to survive till the end
*They used good strategy's

I respect what the Allies have done for us but they dont impressed me by How they have done it and thats Quantity and Brutal Force

I have seen many docs on TV about the WW2 and mostly you see the germans outsmart with smaller number and the Americans having trouble by gettin the germans for example out of their Foxholes , and then some Hyper Hollywood General Decides to drop a massiv amount of Bombs on that place that afterwards nothing is left....but the germans are still their standing their ground...and the American General called that an Precise Bombing action....''Riiiiight''

Now I dont like the russians either because of their ways of combat. Sending 10,000 men without any Gun just to get the germans waste some bullets on them really makes me Puke. Also what they promised to the polish last defenders that they would help them if they keep the germans busy for a while....it resulted in an slaughter of the last few defenders of the polish army. that made me angry also that the allies didnt gave the polish soldiers any credit for their bravery and support in the World War 2. for example the Battle of Arhnem , they blamed the polish that they have lost that battle....while the Military intelligence knew that there was an Killer group of the SS division. so sending men there was an suicidal mission.

On the brittish I have not much to say against, they went into combat with Honor.
And also I haven’t seen a lot of Docs off them on TV

On the german side I separate them in 2 parts
1: The regular Soldiers, those who went into combat and acted like an Soldier,
I respect them what they have achieved and the way of how they where, they didn’t kill civilians on purpose. I think they where named the Wehrmacht or something like that.

2: The SS Death Squad, I do not respect them, they have slaughered civilians because they where Jews, I cant call these men soldiers, I call them the Nazi bastards. I don’t have much to say about these guys because they where the lowest lifeform I ever knew.

Also I want to recall the WORST bastards on the german Side, those where the Inktsucking bastards behind their Desk and they had no combat experience and they punished soldiers who in their eyes betrayed the Reich if you followed some docs on TV you know what I talk about. Saying that they aren’t worthy to the Fuhrer and that they received the Death penalty…’’What The ****’’


I have not a lot of experience In the history of naval combat but that’s one of the reasons I like SH3 a lot. Because its new and an wild way of hunting down ur enemy and bring them down to the bottom.


Now as for Games

As far as I know I don’t really mind wich side I play, I still if I can choose I would pick the germans, (reason shown above) as such I don’t like games that are in the style of Hollywood. Dramatic movie style start that you get ur ass kicked by the enemy forces and you’re one of the few survivors that are in for revenge…PUKE!!! Give me something that feels real. That’s why I like SH3, at start you can take it easy but after an while progressing in the game itself you are struggling to make it till the end of the war and the British/USA forces are making that really Hard. Like I saw in the mission editor that there will be a lot of hunter killer groups in ’44 I,m not looking forward to get in that year, I,m now enjoying my sinkings without having to much problems (silent rig and dive to 100 Meters when possible)
But as I have seen on many u-boat sites that at start the germans had an big amount of tonnage for an few u-boat losses. And ofcourse as I see that the tonnage rate of the germans are going down and that there are a lot of U-boat losses I think I pretty know what is waiting for me after 1942-43.

My final thoughts

In game I see no matter what side the enemy as an enemy
For example if I,m American/British, I see the german as Enemy that are after my balls. I don’t see them as Nazi Bastard that I want the beat the hell out of it and throw them with their guts in my hand in to the firery pits of HELL.

And as german I see the American/British not as the GOOD GUYS I see them as an enemy that are invading or attack the reich. And even that I now that in history they lost..that I will stand my ground

And I love to handle the weapons/Vehicles/Equipment from the WW2.

Greets

‘’Sorry for the length’’:roll:

[rjcjunior]

I think that is important for the historical moment. An interveiw with A. Hitler for a brazilian magazine in the early days off the war.

VEJA - In 21 of May of 1935, you it announced a pact of not-aggression with the Poles, affirming that Germany recognized the Poland as the “native land of a conscientious people”. Now, four years later, it convokes the German troops to attack this population and to occupy its lands. What it moved since then in its head? Hitler - First she is necessary to explain that an entire province was pulled out of the Reich and that other territories German had been deliver to the Polish state under the justification of a supposed national unit, for occasion of the Treated one to Versailles. Then: later, plebiscites in all these places had shown that none of them desired to be part of the Polish state, that if it erected on the blood of countless regiments German. A thing was proven in these last twenty years: the Poles, who had not established the culture of these regions, had not known to keep it. Thirty years had been enough to again reduce to the barbarism these territories that the Germans, with great difficulty, had civilized. The traces of this retrocession were visible for all the sides.

VEJA - But this justified an invasion? Hitler - the daily one of the Germans in these territories was horrible. One was about a state constructed and supported in the base of the force and the truculência of the policy and the military. But the world if kept deaf person and dumb for the suffering of millions of Germans who had been forced to leave its native land for the Treated one to Versailles. Still thus, I tried to search a solution that led just to an agreement. I submitted this attempt to the Polish governing under the form of verbal proposals that were more than reasonable. You know them. Sincerely I do not know where mental conditions were the leader ones when they had refuted these proposals. E, as reply, the Poland gave the order for the first mobilization. Then the savagery of the terror started. E was impossible for a great force as Germany to tolerate such acts. The Poland chose the war, and it received it.

VEJA - the German military victory in the campaign of the Poland was uncosteded, and its rapidity surprised the majority of the international observers. The German army already completely is remade of the defeat in the Great War, in 1918? Hitler - Certainly. With less of one week of combat, he did not have more doubt of the result. When the Polish troops had found the units German, or had been defeated or repelled. The idea of a great offensive Pole against the territory of the Reich ruiu in first the 48 hours of the campaign. The German units had always been ladies of the situation, in all the battles. Of the day for the night, most of the Polish military force was massacreed, captured or relieved. Meanwhile, the German army obtained to advance distances and to occupy regions that, have 25 years, would have taken 14 months to conquer. E this always respecting the rules of the game. I very gave a clear order in this campaign so that lives human beings were saved.

VEJA - the stories are not these that come of front. Hitler - Not, gentleman. In the places where the people had not offered resistance, I guarantee that nor a glassware was broken. In the Cracóvia, no bomb was shot, except in the fields of landing, railroads and railroad stations, that were objective military. On the other hand, in Warsaw the war was lead by armed civilians in all the houses and streets. There, obviously, the war if spread for the entire city. We follow these rules now and would like seguiz them in the future. It is at the hands of our adversaries the decision to lead its strategy of a compatible with the international laws or incompatible form with them. We will know in adapting them to this choice.

VEJA - But it was reported that seven Squadrons of Special Action, the Einsatzgruppen calls, had been in the Poland exterminando of arbitrary form integrant sectors of the Polish intellectual elite and of the Jewish community… Hitler - Well, this is one another question. One is about the racial purificação. During all my life, I have been a true prophet, and costumo to be ridicularizado therefore. At the time of my fight for power, when it said that one day would take the leadership of the state and the nation and, among others things, would decide the question of the Jews, the Jewish race received my prophecy with laugh. But I find that, already it has some time, such laugh had ceased. E, at the beginning of this year, I made a new prophecy: if the Jewish financiers of inside and of are of the Europe had success in one more time placing the countries in a world-wide war, the result would not be the implantation of the bolchevismo in the world, with the consequence the victory of the Jews, but the destruction of the race mistreats in the Europe. The war is there… E my prophecy is being fulfilled again.

VEJA - How to explain its extreme animosity stops with the Jews? It believes you that the anti-semitism will be able to decide the problems of Germany? Hitler - the judaism not only has a pernicious effect in national level as well as in personal level, in the bad impression left for each Jewish individual. As result, some can take the anti-semitism as a movement of emotional and strict individual character. This does not correspond to the reality. Anti-semitism as a movement politician cannot and it does not have to be molded by emotional factors, and yes for the recognition of the facts. VEJA - Which would be they, then? Hitler - the facts are that, for the Jews, the value of an individual more is not determined by its character or for the sum of its acts for the community, and yes only for the size of its wealth. Everything that moves somebody to reach bigger objectives, either the religion, the socialism or the democracy, is for the mere half Jews for an end, a form to satisfy its greed and its headquarters of being able. The result of this is the racial tuberculosis of the nation. Therefore, the rational anti-semitism must englobar a legitimate and systematic fight against the privileges enjoyed for the Jews, and its final objective must be the total removal of the Jews of our way. This only can be reached by a strong government, not for an impotent government. E we are a strong government.

VEJA - Treat to Not-Aggression the Nazi-Soviet it gave force still more to Germany? Some believe to be about an agreement between gangsters, who had agreed to not raising weapons between itself to only have the guarantee of being able to commit aggressions in other fronts unpunishedly. Hitler - I have listened that the cooperation between Germany and Russia comes being considered a terrible crime in Great-Britain and France. A British arrived to write that it is perfidious. , They are well that they know. I believe that Great-Britain takes this cooperation as perfidious because the cooperation enters democratic Great-Britain with bolchevista Russia failed, whereas Germany Socialist Nacional with Soviet Russia gave certain. He wanted to use to advantage this moment to give an explanation: Russia is as it is, and Germany also. A thing is clear for the two regimes: nor Germany nor Russia will accept to sacrifice one man for the interest of the occidental democracies alone. A lesson of four years was enough for both the peoples. Germany has limited, however clear and unalterable claims, and will go to effect them of a form or another one. Now, if the occidental forces find that these claims cannot be materialize under no circumstance, and if Great-Britain in particular will be determined if to oppose they in a three war, five or eight years, that are.

VEJA - First it said you that he did not desire to the war under hypothesis some. In 1933, it arrived to affirm: “They insult me it repeating that I want the war. I will be wild? The war? But the war nothing would decide. It would only make to aggravate the situation of the world.” However, now you it seems radiating the perspective of a long battle in European territory, especially against Great-Britain, that Winston led back Churchill to the Admiralty (she reads note in the section People). After all, the war is or it is not the best européias form to decide pendengas? Hitler - It sees well: with the war, the national wealth of the Europe will go to get rid themselves, and the vigor of each nation will be wasted in the battlefields. Necessity Churchill and its friends can interpret this opinion as a weakness or cowardice, if want. I am not worried about what they think. I make this affirmation simply to show that it would like to save my people of this suffering. If, however, the opinions of Churchill and its followers, the lords of the war to prevail, this affirmation will be my last one. We will have then to fight. E weapons nenhumas will conquer Germany. It will never have another November of 1918 in German history. It is an infantile error to desire the disintegration of our people. Necessity Churchill can be presumptuous of the victory of Great-Britain. I do not doubt for one alone moment that Germany will leave victorious person. The destination will say who is certain. http://veja.abril.uol.com.br/especiais_online/segunda_guerra/index_flash.html
antecipated apologizes if any one that to find itself insulted by the interview. ;°)

[SkvyWvr]

I think that is important for the historical moment. An interveiw with A. Hitler for a brazilian magazine in the early days off the war. VEJA - In 21 of May of 1935, you it announced a pact of not-aggression with the Poles, affirming that Germany recognized the Poland as the “native land of a conscientious people”. Now, four years later, it convokes the German troops to attack this population and to occupy its lands. What it moved since then in its head? Hitler - First she is necessary to explain that an entire province was pulled out of the Reich and that other territories German had been deliver to the Polish state under the justification of a supposed national unit, for occasion of the Treated one to Versailles. Then: later, plebiscites in all these places had shown that none of them desired to be part of the Polish state, that if it erected on the blood of countless regiments German. A thing was proven in these last twenty years: the Poles, who had not established the culture of these regions, had not known to keep it. Thirty years had been enough to again reduce to the barbarism these territories that the Germans, with great difficulty, had civilized. The traces of this retrocession were visible for all the sides. VEJA - But this justified an invasion? Hitler - the daily one of the Germans in these territories was horrible. One was about a state constructed and supported in the base of the force and the truculência of the policy and the military. But the world if kept deaf person and dumb for the suffering of millions of Germans who had been forced to leave its native land for the Treated one to Versailles. Still thus, I tried to search a solution that led just to an agreement. I submitted this attempt to the Polish governing under the form of verbal proposals that were more than reasonable. You know them. Sincerely I do not know where mental conditions were the leader ones when they had refuted these proposals. E, as reply, the Poland gave the order for the first mobilization. Then the savagery of the terror started. E was impossible for a great force as Germany to tolerate such acts. The Poland chose the war, and it received it. VEJA - the German military victory in the campaign of the Poland was uncosteded, and its rapidity surprised the majority of the international observers. The German army already completely is remade of the defeat in the Great War, in 1918? Hitler - Certainly. With less of one week of combat, he did not have more doubt of the result. When the Polish troops had found the units German, or had been defeated or repelled. The idea of a great offensive Pole against the territory of the Reich ruiu in first the 48 hours of the campaign. The German units had always been ladies of the situation, in all the battles. Of the day for the night, most of the Polish military force was massacreed, captured or relieved. Meanwhile, the German army obtained to advance distances and to occupy regions that, have 25 years, would have taken 14 months to conquer. E this always respecting the rules of the game. I very gave a clear order in this campaign so that lives human beings were saved. VEJA - the stories are not these that come of front. Hitler - Not, gentleman. In the places where the people had not offered resistance, I guarantee that nor a glassware was broken. In the Cracóvia, no bomb was shot, except in the fields of landing, railroads and railroad stations, that were objective military. On the other hand, in Warsaw the war was lead by armed civilians in all the houses and streets. There, obviously, the war if spread for the entire city. We follow these rules now and would like seguiz them in the future. It is at the hands of our adversaries the decision to lead its strategy of a compatible with the international laws or incompatible form with them. We will know in adapting them to this choice. VEJA - But it was reported that seven Squadrons of Special Action, the Einsatzgruppen calls, had been in the Poland exterminando of arbitrary form integrant sectors of the Polish intellectual elite and of the Jewish community… Hitler - Well, this is one another question. One is about the racial purificação. During all my life, I have been a true prophet, and costumo to be ridicularizado therefore. At the time of my fight for power, when it said that one day would take the leadership of the state and the nation and, among others things, would decide the question of the Jews, the Jewish race received my prophecy with laugh. But I find that, already it has some time, such laugh had ceased. E, at the beginning of this year, I made a new prophecy: if the Jewish financiers of inside and of are of the Europe had success in one more time placing the countries in a world-wide war, the result would not be the implantation of the bolchevismo in the world, with the consequence the victory of the Jews, but the destruction of the race mistreats in the Europe. The war is there… E my prophecy is being fulfilled again. VEJA - How to explain its extreme animosity stops with the Jews? It believes you that the anti-semitism will be able to decide the problems of Germany? Hitler - the judaism not only has a pernicious effect in national level as well as in personal level, in the bad impression left for each Jewish individual. As result, some can take the anti-semitism as a movement of emotional and strict individual character. This does not correspond to the reality. Anti-semitism as a movement politician cannot and it does not have to be molded by emotional factors, and yes for the recognition of the facts. VEJA - Which would be they, then? Hitler - the facts are that, for the Jews, the value of an individual more is not determined by its character or for the sum of its acts for the community, and yes only for the size of its wealth. Everything that moves somebody to reach bigger objectives, either the religion, the socialism or the democracy, is for the mere half Jews for an end, a form to satisfy its greed and its headquarters of being able. The result of this is the racial tuberculosis of the nation. Therefore, the rational anti-semitism must englobar a legitimate and systematic fight against the privileges enjoyed for the Jews, and its final objective must be the total removal of the Jews of our way. This only can be reached by a strong government, not for an impotent government. E we are a strong government. VEJA - Treat to Not-Aggression the Nazi-Soviet it gave force still more to Germany? Some believe to be about an agreement between gangsters, who had agreed to not raising weapons between itself to only have the guarantee of being able to commit aggressions in other fronts unpunishedly. Hitler - I have listened that the cooperation between Germany and Russia comes being considered a terrible crime in Great-Britain and France. A British arrived to write that it is perfidious. , They are well that they know. I believe that Great-Britain takes this cooperation as perfidious because the cooperation enters democratic Great-Britain with bolchevista Russia failed, whereas Germany Socialist Nacional with Soviet Russia gave certain. He wanted to use to advantage this moment to give an explanation: Russia is as it is, and Germany also. A thing is clear for the two regimes: nor Germany nor Russia will accept to sacrifice one man for the interest of the occidental democracies alone. A lesson of four years was enough for both the peoples. Germany has limited, however clear and unalterable claims, and will go to effect them of a form or another one. Now, if the occidental forces find that these claims cannot be materialize under no circumstance, and if Great-Britain in particular will be determined if to oppose they in a three war, five or eight years, that are. VEJA - First it said you that he did not desire to the war under hypothesis some. In 1933, it arrived to affirm: “They insult me it repeating that I want the war. I will be wild? The war? But the war nothing would decide. It would only make to aggravate the situation of the world.” However, now you it seems radiating the perspective of a long battle in European territory, especially against Great-Britain, that Winston led back Churchill to the Admiralty (she reads note in the section People). After all, the war is or it is not the best européias form to decide pendengas? Hitler - It sees well: with the war, the national wealth of the Europe will go to get rid themselves, and the vigor of each nation will be wasted in the battlefields. Necessity Churchill and its friends can interpret this opinion as a weakness or cowardice, if want. I am not worried about what they think. I make this affirmation simply to show that it would like to save my people of this suffering. If, however, the opinions of Churchill and its followers, the lords of the war to prevail, this affirmation will be my last one. We will have then to fight. E weapons nenhumas will conquer Germany. It will never have another November of 1918 in German history. It is an infantile error to desire the disintegration of our people. Necessity Churchill can be presumptuous of the victory of Great-Britain. I do not doubt for one alone moment that Germany will leave victorious person. The destination will say who is certain. http://veja.abril.uol.com.br/especiais_online/segunda_guerra/index_flash.html antecipated apologizes if any one that to find itself insulted by the interview. ;°)


No man, I just hope you didn't forget to breath.:huh:

[rjcjunior]

OH OH OH:arrgh!:

sorry about that:roll:

[Myxale]

Lo! Landsmann!
:up:

Well, this was a question that came out of nowhere!

Why do we play german - or rather games as germans during WWII- without moral conflicts! Well first off: There are no real moral conflicts in a game.

I'm a big fan of OPF and i still enjoy this Game, even if its make me Kill dozens of Russian; American; British; German, Chinese and what ever armed forces modmaker pull off! This is not a statement of life it's just a game. I would never harm those people in any way! Or think low of them, just because they're the big bad in the game!
I also play Falcon:AF and still don't want to drop Bombs on Serbia or North Korea for real!

And i know, that being german doesn't mean that your a nazi. Not then not now.
Being a Nazi means embracing a mindset and a way of thinking!
There is not shame to be proud your history. There was/is more to germany than just Hitler!

Most of us here have a fascination about everything Naval. Me, I'm totally into U-Boote form WWI and WWII.

And since we're at it: I don't believe, no matter how much the media stresses this, that games where you play as a bad guy or a german, makes you turn into a Nazi and kill fellow classmates in the school!


Sorry for the rant!


N'abend!:hmm:

[The Noob]

In WW2 games I mostly pick the german side for some reasons
*they impressed me what they have achieved as an Army
*Their Tools where far more advanced then the allies
*They have lost the war and so its an challenge to survive till the end
*They used good strategy's

I respect what the Allies have done for us but they dont impressed me by How they have done it and thats Quantity and Brutal Force

I have seen many docs on TV about the WW2 and mostly you see the germans outsmart with smaller number and the Americans having trouble by gettin the germans for example out of their Foxholes , and then some Hyper Hollywood General Decides to drop a massiv amount of Bombs on that place that afterwards nothing is left....but the germans are still their standing their ground...and the American General called that an Precise Bombing action....''Riiiiight''
I'm with you on this matter. The germans had some good Strategys.

About that bomb thingy...It really makes me lol Every single time. They still do it today! They dropped more bombs on Iraq than USAF and RAF dropped on The Third Reich TOGETHER! (Saw it yesterday on TV)

And thats a Precice attack? Yeah sure.


Now I dont like the russians either because of their ways of combat. Sending 10,000 men without any Gun just to get the germans waste some bullets on them really makes me Puke. Also what they promised to the polish last defenders that they would help them if they keep the germans busy for a while....it resulted in an slaughter of the last few defenders of the polish army. that made me angry also that the allies didnt gave the polish soldiers any credit for their bravery and support in the World War 2. for example the Battle of Arhnem , they blamed the polish that they have lost that battle....while the Military intelligence knew that there was an Killer group of the SS division. so sending men there was an suicidal mission.
Thats Correct. This wasn't a Very Smart Strategy.
But what to do if you have no Guns and Ammo? Let the Nazis win? :nope:
Bad sitiation. I dont wanna be the Leader Choosing between the two. :roll:


On the brittish I have not much to say against, they went into combat with Honor.


And they have nice Cake! British Teacake...mhhhhh.:up:
And they have manners.


On the german side I separate them in 2 parts
1: The regular Soldiers, those who went into combat and acted like an Soldier,
I respect them what they have achieved and the way of how they where, they didn’t kill civilians on purpose. I think they where named the Wehrmacht or something like that.

2: The SS Death Squad, I do not respect them, they have slaughered civilians because they where Jews, I cant call these men soldiers, I call them the Nazi bastards. I don’t have much to say about these guys because they where the lowest lifeform I ever knew.

Also I want to recall the WORST bastards on the german Side, those where the Inktsucking bastards behind their Desk and they had no combat experience and they punished soldiers who in their eyes betrayed the Reich if you followed some docs on TV you know what I talk about. Saying that they aren’t worthy to the Fuhrer and that they received the Death penalty…’’What The ****’’

Agreed. :up:


Now as for Games

As far as I know I don’t really mind wich side I play, I still if I can choose I would pick the germans, (reason shown above) as such I don’t like games that are in the style of Hollywood. Dramatic movie style start that you get ur ass kicked by the enemy forces and you’re one of the few survivors that are in for revenge…PUKE!!!

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1203/ekeliah5.gif


In game I see no matter what side the enemy as an enemy
For example if I,m American/British, I see the german as Enemy that are after my balls.

Here Too.


For example if I,m American/British, I see the german as Enemy that are after my balls. I don’t see them as Nazi Bastard that I want the beat the hell out of it and throw them with their guts in my hand in to the firery pits of HELL.

But thats how 50% of the American Gamers think. For those are this "Hollywood Games" like CoD 2 Made!


And I love to handle the weapons/Vehicles/Equipment from the WW2.

Thats the Main Reason why i play this games. I love that old Uniforms and Weapons, and the "Old" Type of War.

[Spaxspore]

(please forgive any spelling/grammer mistakes)
OK i have to jump in here about the german tools of ww2. Yes they did have some pretty advanced weapons compared to the allies in the early years of the war 39-42

But once america joined in thier advances in certain areas were not so proment.

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Main field infantry weapon of the US(rifle)
-M1 Grande .30-06 Semi auto 8 round emi-block clip

Main Field infantry weapon of the German Army (rifle)
-8mm K98k bolt action w/ 5 round internal mag.

I own both of these weapons and shot both weekly at my local firing range. The M1 grande is a supior weapon

why?

1.30-06 is a more powerful then the 8mm, higher velocity and better stopping power
2.You can fire 8 rounds and reload with the ingenius block clip 10 times faster then u can with a k98k using bolt action and a stripper clip


Main sub machine gun US- Thompson/Grease Gun

Main Sub Machine Gun Ger- MP40

.45acp owns a 9mm... trust me
Stoping power and higher cailber


Main Pistol US- Colt cailber .45 semi Auto 1911

Main Pistol Ger- Walther p38, Luger 9mm

same reason as above, stoping power and higher cailber
I own both btw (p38/1911)

As for machine guns, i would take a mg42 over a 30cal browning just because the mg42 had proven its self to be the best ww2 machine gun of the war.


Now off to the aircraft

Who had the better bombers= US
WHy?- Germany had no true hvy bomber. Thus it couldnt deliver the payloads as thier american counterparts could.


Who had the better air craft- US
Why?- Earlier in the war 39-43 Germany had the advantages in numbers of aircraft, and the Folk wolf aircraft was thier best fighter of the war.
But in the long run compared to the US, the Mustang was a fair supior aircraft, in speed and manvablity.


Tanks-
German had the best tanks hands down, both in armor and firepower (88mm tiger owned)

However what they lacked were numbers and reliablity, against the US, and russians they couldnt compete. Russians were using the T34 as thier primary tank which was a American design manufactured in mass numbers in Siberia in Russia. It was very quick compared to the germans and had good fire power for its size.

Same goes for the Shermans, however the shermans had horrible armor compared to the german tanks, and they lite up like a match box if they got hit.


Field Guns-
German 88mm Field gun was the best gun in the war.
Why?
1. Range
2.Firepower
3.All purpose gun, AA,AI,AT you name it, it couldnt kill it

So yea hope that clears up some stuff for you guys, i would type more but i think i got my point accross.

[SkvyWvr]

(please forgive any spelling/grammer mistakes)
OK i have to jump in here about the german tools of ww2. Yes they did have some pretty advanced weapons compared to the allies in the early years of the war 39-42

But once america joined in thier advances in certain areas were not so proment.

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Main field infantry weapon of the US(rifle)
-M1 Grande .30-06 Semi auto 8 round emi-block clip

Main Field infantry weapon of the German Army (rifle)
-8mm K98k bolt action w/ 5 round internal mag.

I own both of these weapons and shot both weekly at my local firing range. The M1 grande is a supior weapon

why?

1.30-06 is a more powerful then the 8mm, higher velocity and better stopping power
2.You can fire 8 rounds and reload with the ingenius block clip 10 times faster then u can with a k98k using bolt action and a stripper clip


Main sub machine gun US- Thompson/Grease Gun

Main Sub Machine Gun Ger- MP40

.45acp owns a 9mm... trust me
Stoping power and higher cailber


Main Pistol US- Colt cailber .45 semi Auto 1911

Main Pistol Ger- Walther p38, Luger 9mm

same reason as above, stoping power and higher cailber
I own both btw (p38/1911)

As for machine guns, i would take a mg42 over a 30cal browning just because the mg42 had proven its self to be the best ww2 machine gun of the war.


Now off to the aircraft

Who had the better bombers= US
WHy?- Germany had no true hvy bomber. Thus it couldnt deliver the payloads as thier american counterparts could.


Who had the better air craft- US
Why?- Earlier in the war 39-43 Germany had the advantages in numbers of aircraft, and the Folk wolf aircraft was thier best fighter of the war.
But in the long run compared to the US, the Mustang was a fair supior aircraft, in speed and manvablity.


Tanks-
German had the best tanks hands down, both in armor and firepower (88mm tiger owned)

However what they lacked were numbers and reliablity, against the US, and russians they couldnt compete. Russians were using the T34 as thier primary tank which was a American design manufactured in mass numbers in Siberia in Russia. It was very quick compared to the germans and had good fire power for its size.

Same goes for the Shermans, however the shermans had horrible armor compared to the german tanks, and they lite up like a match box if they got hit.


Field Guns-
German 88mm Field gun was the best gun in the war.
Why?
1. Range
2.Firepower
3.All purpose gun, AA,AI,AT you name it, it couldnt kill it

So yea hope that clears up some stuff for you guys, i would type more but i think i got my point accross.

Good points, but my favorite is the Thermal Nuclear Warhead:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[rcs929]

For me it's about playing out a scenario using the equipment & not the politics or the regime's ideology. The Uboat side offers the most regarding the progression from TypeII's to Type XXI's. Also how the war from the German prospective goes from easy mode to very difficult to survive.

When I play battlefield 1942 (battlegroup 42 mod) and I play the Germans it's for the defensive or offensive scenario (depending on map) and the equipment. The Germans had some real nice motorized equipment etc.

[Lovro]

Germans didnt use the same tactics than US. They built their squad tactics around MG42 (which is still used today in a lot of armed forces- MG3) so Kar98 sufficed, US had a diffrent approach so they needed better rifles. And WW2 mauser rifles are even today still used because of their supreme accuracy
And you forgot the Mp44 world's first assault rifle.

But you could say allies cougt germany in later years of the war in terms of technology but the thing is germany allready had new generation of superior weapons prepared by then (Me262 first jet fighter, V2, Mp44, XXI u-boat, air to air heat seeking missiles, new genaration of tanks...) but because of allied bombing raids these weapons were never produced as much as they were ment too.

[Engel der Vernichtung]

On an aside, the reasons the US didn't deploy a bigger tank, was because the railway tunnels to get the thing to the coastline from Detroit woudn't admit anything bigger. They could have widened the tunnels, but it would have taken years to do, and when every tank you had was being badly needed....


Back on topic: I am an American, of German descent; my family has been in the States for at least a hundred years (that I know of). Both my grandfathers fought in WWII (one as a fighter pilot on the Asian theater; the other as a B-24 pilot in Europe).

More to the point: I suppose it's possible I have relatives in Germany, at least distant ones. I am not my ancestors; I am not responsible for anyone's conduct but my own. And sometimes not even then. I have been a soldier, and I know, as a soldier, you do not get the luxury of deciding whether you're going to go to work today or not. The Nuremburg trials were wrong: following orders can be a valid reason. Concentration camps... no. That was a clear humanitarian violation, and should have been refused. Thing is... incredible pressure can be brought to bear to get people to do things they might not otherwise have done, especially with an authoritarian gov't with no checks on its power. I do not deny the Holocaust; it was a very, very horrible episode in human history. But the German soldiers on the lines, in the skies and seas, had very little (if anything) to do with this. And so I have no ethical problem playing the part of one of those soldiers, or sailors. Just like an actor playing the part of Adolf Hitler.

[gabeeg]

This is a very intersting thread. I like, most others have no problem playing the German side, especially in a sub, or flight sim. For what ever reason, I would prefer to play an Allied soldier in a ground action game but would not have a moral problem playing on the German side. Now that said, I was sitting here thinking how I would feel playing a Japanese sub commander, pilot or infantry...and I do feel a bit differently. I do not think I would be as comfortable playing from the Japanese side, and I am not exactly sure why that is.

I think it may be that I see the Japanese in WWII as brutal even at the individual level. I have questioned myself as to whether this is some undercurrent of racism that I was not aware of....but I don't think so. I harbor no ill will towards the Japanese and would gladly play a Japanese American infantry man (the 100th and 442nd were under appreciated units and would love to see them featured in a WWII game!). I just do not see the general German military man in this light, though I am aware that even in the German Navy there were plenty of individuals and captains even outside the SS that totally bought into Hilters extreme views (Forgot where I was reading this...and forgot which captain but I as reading a speech he had given his men and he was quite outspoken on his feelings towards the Jewish menace) I think the majority did not.

It may also have a lot to do with the fact that my relatives that served in Europe came back alive and those that served in the Pacific died (two great uncles...one died on a Hell Ship torped by a US sub and one on the Bataan death march).

Still not quite sure...


In honest truth the one thing I have the most problems with is playing a female character...I just cannot do it...not sure what that means :)

[Spaxspore]

Germans didnt use the same tactics than US. They built their squad tactics around MG42 (which is still used today in a lot of armed forces- MG3) so Kar98 sufficed, US had a diffrent approach so they needed better rifles. And WW2 mauser rifles are even today still used because of their supreme accuracy
And you forgot the Mp44 world's first assault rifle.

But you could say allies cougt germany in later years of the war in terms of technology but the thing is germany allready had new generation of superior weapons prepared by then (Me262 first jet fighter, V2, Mp44, XXI u-boat, air to air heat seeking missiles, new genaration of tanks...) but because of allied bombing raids these weapons were never produced as much as they were ment too.
I didnt forgot about the mp44, but considering it came out mid to late 44, it didnt really make a difference. By that time germany was about done...
Yes the k98k is accurate, but the m1 grande is also very accurate @ 100yds+, and the US forces used the same type of tactics, fire and manuver. Using the 30cal browning light machine gun.

[sordid]

Wow!
That's some great reading I received here.
Thanks a lot for sharing all these thoughts.
I'm going out for dinner with my wife now, but I will get back to some of you tomorrow.

[THE_MASK]

I play SH3 because its a great game and it doesnt bother me playing the german side . Japs though , i dont know .

[Cerberus]

First, lets compare infantry weapons.


Now off to the aircraft




Tanks-



Field Guns-


I've snipped a reasoned comparison of some US & German weapons used in WWII.

The other overwhelming difference is that the US had an enormous industrial base making these weapons which entirely outside the theatre of war - no bombed factories, railways, roads.

The finest weapons are no use if you can't make them & deliver them if sufficient quantity.

[rjcjunior]

think about it:

play with one nihon kaigun sub, one the monster jap sub... it will be fun!!:rock:

Units3 (none survived) ShipsI-9, I-10, I-11 Year(s) Completed 1941-1942 Displacement2,919 tons / 4,149 tons Dimensions 372.8 ft x 31.3 ft x 17.5 ft Machinery 2 diesels: 12,400 hp electric motors: 2,400 hp
Speed23.5 knots / 8 knots Range16,000 nm @ 16 knots Armament 6x533mm TT fwd + 1x14cm/50 cal. (18 Torpedoes) + one seaplane. Max. Depth100 m (330 feet) Crew114 officers and men

Yeeaaahhhh:sunny:

[John Pancoast]

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.
Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

Excellent questions. Imo, a LOT of players play the German side in any WW2 game because they think one or more of the following:

- the German military was actually the best at the time, etc.
- the German arms were the best/sexiest toys to play with, etc.
- German military arm (insert branch name here) was actually not pro-Nazi, etc., so that branch is "ok" to simulate.

I don't subscribe/agree with these lines of thought myself, but many do. No big deal.

[stabiz]

So you disagree?

Do you play SH3?

[IrishUboot]

If I may shake off the reins of political correctness and the great shame that is self censorship, I have no qualms playing a subsim as a Kriegsmarine sub commander nor do I find the imposed German guilt complex at all endearing. Whatever your political or historical opinions, the second war happened for many reasons, and is unquestionably too complex a subject for discussion in this forum. Something my history teacher told me at a young age has always stuck; that it is the victor who writes history. Never has this been more true than in the aftermath of the war. It has led us to this position of an unchallengeable version of history, free from proper historical debate.

Five years ago, I left my study of history behind to read the law. Maybe it helps explain my approach to such issues. I like to take history with an open mind, weighing the facts, analyzing events, details, motives and opinions as any lawyer should. Being Irish and growing up during the Troubles, I've also experienced first hand the nature of conflict in the knowledge that those who wield the power of the pen can write history in such a way as to make it palatable for their intended audience.

Maybe it's time we pulled off the blinkers and allowed historians and political commentators to do their job. I'm just throwing my two cents in, for what it's worth.

[Max Peck]

Sordid, I have no problem playing WW2 Sims, after all it's not real. OK, they are based on actual events of WW2 and some people may find that offencive but I think that's a little over the top. And at the end of the day it's only a game.

Nail, meet head....

Steed has it absoulutely correct, its only a game.

[irish1958]

This is a very interesting multinational discussion. I am an American of Irish descent on both my mother's and my father's side. During the war I was confused at the dinner table with the discussions. Every one was very Anti-British and hoped they would be pounded, and yet the American Press and sentiment was Anti-German. How could both sides be bad? How could America fight on the side of the British after what they did to the Irish? What were the Germans doing to the Jews?
At church, we were told that was bad.
As a child I was so confused I just wanted to play baseball.
61 years is a long time, as is 85 years ago. I wasn't responsible for what happened then or for who did what to whom.
SHIII is a fantasy. I can be a kaleun and command a crew to attempt to serve my country. What is wrong with that?

[Spaxspore]

First, lets compare infantry weapons.


Now off to the aircraft




Tanks-



Field Guns-

I've snipped a reasoned comparison of some US & German weapons used in WWII.

The other overwhelming difference is that the US had an enormous industrial base making these weapons which entirely outside the theatre of war - no bombed factories, railways, roads.

The finest weapons are no use if you can't make them & deliver them if sufficient quantity.


exactly, thats what i hinted on concerning the tanks... :)

[Burzum]

Hmmm...
Great question mate!

For me, playing the game (or sim, in this case) as a German is...well, the honour, amongst other things.
As I am from Croatia, and in that time, Germany and Croatia were on the same side; and my ancestors spoke german language and even I have some part of german blood, so I am proud to play as a german...

I don't want to sound like some bittered man that weeps because "we" lost the war, but I am merely enthusiatic for playing as such...
I was always fascinated by a lot of things from that period of time with germany and its army, as well as bittered for some other things that should not have been made by same.
But just as such, I also played a lot of games on the allied side too, like RTCWolfenstein.

I can understand if someone has some feelings and don't want to play the game if it touches painful period of time in history, regarding to them; I believe not many jewish people can easily play a game under swastika's banner.
But, this is virtual world and is mostly fun and pleasure to play some things we couldn't have done in those days for real.

[kapitanfred]

I agree whole heartedly, It's just a game but I'm sure any sim that depics historic events were developed so that you as a user could re-enact what it was like to be in that situation there at that time and how you would feel if you were there in real life. SHIII is a prime example of re-enacting the life of a U-Boat captain. Ok, so it's the Axis side you're re-enacting but once SHIV is released, you're on the other side of the fence. Same deal. For a majority of members here in the subsim community are fortunate not to have been born in that era.

All thing aside, it all depends how seriously the game is taken.

My two cents, euros, bobs worth.

[JScones]

This is a good thread!

I just focus on the game and the challenges it presents. I don't focus on the RL politics. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm wearing a Commonwealth, American, German, Japanese, Russian, etc, etc uniform (although I do feel uncomfortable playing the Vietnamese in the Vietnam Conflict as my Dad served there and it's a bit of a respect thing). In my mind I'm just doing what every soldier from every nation essentially did - protecting my backside and country.

But I do, where possible, play the Australians as there are so few games that cater for the Australian military forces. I do feel very proud when I see that blue and white roundel on my P-40 Kittyhawk when I'm playing IL-2.

But let's face it, those German uniforms look much more spiffy than the British or American ones. And then there's the marching music...

[P_Funk]

I'm gonna throw my two bits in here. For me I don't view games such as this one as a glorification of the Nazi regime. First and foremost the fact remains that it is in fact a game. For me games are very much similar to movies; a means to impart unto those less knowing what an event or period was like, particularly in the case of war movies. Whether it is a mini-series about the plight of Easy company of the 101st Airborne or a crew of a U-boat it is about the experiences of the people involved. For me game sare the same as movies, they are a great way to get a new perspective on something which is a constant part of our culture.

A perfect example is the much acclaimed Brothers in Arms. This game sought to recreate the realism of war and focused on characters and the experiences of a single squad and how war pushed them psychologically past the extreme rather than focusing on a much dramatized "operational" experience which lacked all character development and believability. This game was actually endorsed by veterans associations and historical societies as being accurate and a testament to the memory of WW2.

I personally want to see a game in which you get to play as a german soldier. The perspective would be fascinating. For once they could actually have an FPS war game when you have to retreat. If you are going to make the argument that the soldiers of the Third Reich were responsible for supporting a regime which wrought unstoppable terror and destruction we ought to remember that we also, as the Allies, were responsible for some despicable acts as well. Recall the Fire Bombing of Dresden, the nuclear bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the force internment of many immigrants of an unfriendly ethnic origin, and of course the bombing of Nazi held territory which caused countless civilian deaths.

My perspective on war is that war itself is the true monster behind the so called "evil". War throws innocent young men into a situation in which they are compelled to do terrible things, and told to die for an abstract concept such as god, king, and country. Of course the SS caused much human devestation beyond that of the normal conventions of war but the vast majority of german soldiers in all arms of the military were as innocent in the cause of the conflict as anyone else. They had their democratic process subverted, were conscripted, and forced to fight for a regime which had come to power for a number of reasons many of which lead back to the allies themselves at the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

So no I don't find experiencing the German side of WW2 disgusting. War is disgusting. Where should we stop? "Aushwitz the game" -- that's when we can go ape****. But the life and death of a young man of any nationality is a worthy subject for a movie, novel, or game. If I can see through the eyes of a german man my own age and see what his life was like I can better cut through the biased propoganda that comes from living under the regime of the victors. The better we understand history the better we can hope to prevent a replay of it, one not on our computer screens at home.

[Steeltrap]

In answer to the original post, it's for me a case of this being largely a TECHNICAL question - how well does the German technology (U-boat and various systems) perform against the allies' technology (escorts and systems, aircraft etc)? So it's NOT personal. Politics does not enter into it. There were 'atrocities' committed on all sides (consider, for example, that the USA conducted unrestricted sub warfare against Japan from 7th Dec 1941 while Germany did not initially do so in the Atlantic, yet Doenitz was tried as a war criminal for doing something which the USA did, and did better.....). Also, WWII is an era where personal skill is seen as being more important to the results, as technology had not developed to the level of 'point and shoot' as it has today. Thus your own actions and choices are seen as being crucial to the result as THEY have as much (or more) to do with the result than the technology (hard to sneak up on an enemy with GSR, remote 'snooper' drones, AWACS etc....).

[Immacolata]

I think its the hardware, big guns and big machines. And man's natural fascination with things violence and warfare.

To me, the thought of Germany winning wW2 and my role as kaleun on a virtual uboot in a simulation of the war that I didn't want Germany to win, is two completely different things. People that find that connection offensive is the same P.C. people who are mortified when little boys play soldiers, them killing each other symbolically and what not.

Now, with SHIV Ill most likely be torpedoing japanese tonnage with the same glee as I do it on allied tonnage in SH3.

[Zero Niner]

Back to the original question.

I play SH3 (amongst others) simply becasue it's a good game about a topic that interests me. I disassociate the events and the politics of WW2 from the games I play that are based on that era; SH3 being one of them.

I play as Germans also in other games, for instance in COD multiplayer games I frequently play on the German side if I can. Why? Just for the fun of it.

In IL2, I frequently fly for the Luftwaffe. Why? Just for the fun of it.

In Steel Panthers, I play German campaigns. Why? Just for the fun of it.

I suppose the fact that the Germans had some technically superior equipment, or had equipment with a fearsome reputation on the battlefield, or that the Wermacht had a reputation for tactical superiority, has an influence as well. :)

But at the end of the day, it's just a game.

[Lovro]

Another point I like about the WW2 is that is one of the last wars where it was all about the man not the machine. Yes there were tech diffrences but not nearly as big as now. AK47 vs. F117 with thermal sight, radar stealth and laser guided bombs is not fair to me. Today its all about diffrent sensors, IR beams, AT technology, radar, eletronic warfare... In WW2 a poor equipped soldier could still win with his skill. Today you can be the ultimate master of camuflage and marksmanship but on a IR sensor 3km away you'll still be a nice white blob ready to take out with helicopters automated cannon.
Or take air combat than and today.

[Beery]

To me it`s a game, nothing more. If we follow your thoughts to the extreme we shouldn`t play violent games at all because as civilized people we don`t solve conflicts with violence.

I actually stopped playing violent/war-based games for two years because of my pacifist views. I might have relented if SH3 had come out during that time though. Anyway, I realized that what attracted me was not the violence but the challenge. All games are inherently non-violent. No one gets killed or hurt, and some games - especially simulations like SH3 - can actually imbue the player with a reverence for history and a realization that war is not something to be celebrated but something to be ashamed of.

[SkvyWvr]

This is a good thread!

I just focus on the game and the challenges it presents. I don't focus on the RL politics. So it doesn't matter to me whether I'm wearing a Commonwealth, American, German, Japanese, Russian, etc, etc uniform (although I do feel uncomfortable playing the Vietnamese in the Vietnam Conflict as my Dad served there and it's a bit of a respect thing). In my mind I'm just doing what every soldier from every nation essentially did - protecting my backside and country.

But I do, where possible, play the Australians as there are so few games that cater for the Australian military forces. I do feel very proud when I see that blue and white roundel on my P-40 Kittyhawk when I'm playing IL-2.

But let's face it, those German uniforms look much more spiffy than the British or American ones. And then there's the marching music...

I agree. Most of those who fought did so with honor, therefore there should be no shame in playing any side. I like the the recent title these brave men and woman have been given in the States and I think you'll agree when I say it applies to all who served their country during that dark period. They are "The Greatest Generation".

[Gizzmoe]

FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts, the thread derailed too much...

[SkvyWvr]

FYI, I´ve deleted all off-topic posts.

Thank You!!:up:

[sordid]

Much better now.

OK, go on, folks - enlighten me!
I didn't hear that many interesting thoughts about a question of mine for quite a while.
Don't be discouraged by the crap one person posted here. I am still absolutely convinced that this place can carry a controversal discussion as long as certain borders aren't touched.

[midshipsnake]

Hey Sordid,

I'm OK with my OT topic getting erased. Now why are you making nasty remark about my posts that have already been deleted? That's not necessary unless you have some shame left about your lies getting exposed. LOL

[KevinB]

Ditto, I have no problems playing the German side as Hollywood and other films always portray them as being pyschopathic killers.
Many years ago I read books written by Sven Hassell who was allegedly in a punishment battalion, and since then I always read books written from the German point of view. And you know what? They were just as human as their enemies.
That's why I never ever watch Hollywood war films, particularly after U boat film about the Enigma machine (can't remember the name), but after watching it for half an hour I had to switch off. It was utter crap.
So, again I have no problem with SHIII or any other playing the enemy.

[SkvyWvr]

Much better now.

OK, go on, folks - enlighten me!
I didn't hear that many interesting thoughts about a question of mine for quite a while.
Don't be discouraged by the crap one person posted here. I am still absolutely convinced that this place can carry a controversal discussion as long as certain borders aren't touched.

I'm so dizzy from earlier that you may need to refresh my memory.:doh: :doh: :doh:

[GlobalExplorer]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing Germans or playing violent games in general.

Being a german myself, there are a lot of people that I would never confess to that my greatest hobby is playing war games on the computer, as this sometimes means impersonating a german soldier, and this is still a no-no for mainstream people under the spell of political correctness.

On the other hand it got me into contact with like-minded people, and with all the comradship displayed here between people from all over the world, I think we are already one step ahead of the usual stereotypes related with this kind of activity.

Having said that, I still think it's important to have a clear standpoint towards the real ideologies behind world politics and not to be too tolerant with radical views.

For instance playing SHIII for the first time got me into contact with songs and material that are certainly problematic, and it made me realise that there is a limit to what I find acceptable.

Having said that, for me there is no better time to live in than this, we can discuss this kind of topic with people from different sides, and we can get our kicks in front of a computer screen where no one is hurt.

[SkvyWvr]

I don't think there's anything wrong with playing Germans or playing violent games in general.

Being a german myself, there are a lot of people that I would never confess to that my greatest hobby is playing war games on the computer, as this sometimes means impersonating a german soldier, and this is still a no-no for mainstream people under the spell of political correctness.

On the other hand it got me into contact with like-minded people, and with all the comradship displayed here between people from all over the world, I think we are already one step ahead of the usual stereotypes related with this kind of activity.

Having said that, I still think it's important to have a clear standpoint towards the real ideologies behind world politics and not to be too tolerant with radical views.

For instance playing SHIII for the first time got me into contact with songs and material that are certainly problematic, and it made me realise that there is a limit to what I find acceptable.

Having said that, for me there is no better time to live in than this, we can discuss this kind of topic with people from different sides, and we can get our kicks in front of a computer screen where no one is hurt.

Well said. Give the man a beer on me.:()1:

[IrishUboot]

Discussions like this, as I feared, have little relevance. The erasing of informed opinion and well researched contributions does but one thing: it defeats the very purpose of the discussion. The central focus was the supposed stigma attached to playing a German subcommander. It is the notion that there ought to be a stigma that should be attacked and ridiculed. There should be no more of a stigma attached to playing as a German than as an American, a Brit or dare I say a Russian. It is this rule of political oppression in western culture which has deemed it acceptable to walk down the street wearing symbols of the murderous Soviet regime, yet any mention of Nazism is frowned upon.

With regards the situation in Poland, one has every right to question the motives of the American and British governments in their stance on the protection of Polish sovereignty. The atrocity of Katyn Forest and the blatant refusal of the British government to acknowledge the rightful cause and the Polish victims only places distrust in the mind of historical observers.

[John Pancoast]

Whew, a bit to much revisionist history in this thread for my taste, think it's best I bow out of it :roll:

[SkvyWvr]

Whew, a bit to much revisionist history in this thread for my taste, think it's best I bow out of it :roll:

Stick around man. I fully expect it to boil up again.:nope:

[galahad]

Well, in response to the original topic of this thread, no I have no reservation whatsoever about playing a German, in fact I actually prefer to be German in any game where it is possible.

I don't even really know why to be honest, maybe just because they are just plain way cooler than any other faction. I'm sorry to say, but everyone knows that the Germans always get all the ladies, fyi the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.

[pythos]

I have had interests in submarines for ages, and one thing that stands out is, the Germans are the ones that made submarine warfare an effective combat tool. Think about this, Be glad Donitz did not get his way. The Nazi government put very little into the kriegsmarine in comparison to the army, and airforce, and lets not forget those guouls, the SS.

As far as the victims of the subs are concerned, Even with a direct hit on a liner, or cargo hauler there was still the chance of surviving the attack, and getting on a lifeboat, or getting picked up by fellow ships. Tankers, not so much.

But as someone here has stated, War is hell, and that is why it should not be done.

If Donitz did get what he requested, the war would have been much, much different. First off, the supply lines would have been wiped out the first few months. Any enemy ship would have gone to the bottom. This would have caused the opposing armies and civilians to suffer greater than they were at the time (the victims of the stupid final solution are exempt from this, cause you can't get much worse)

Now, something I have learned with my research for this game is, the kreigsmarine submarine force was about as far from being a Nazi force as you could get. I have heard that some jews actually served on some boats (this has not been verified). The german submariners are the only ones I have heard of actually surfacing and helping the victims of their attacks (that is until the Lacitonia incident, you should read up on this debacle) The Germans did this in both wars. This is verified from testimony from allied ship crews that had these encounters. A few Jackass commanders shot up lifeboats and killed men stranded in the water, but they were the exception, not the rule. This "kindness" seems completly lacking from other contries' sub services, Both American and Japanese commanders were known to slaughter men in lifeboats (read about the I32 a japanese submarine that was one of many involved in war crimes, or the Wahoo, whose decorated comander had no problem having the "japs" gunned down while struggling in the water) and in the water using the AA weapondry and hand held weapons. I am unsure what the Russian, British, or Italian forces did, though I have heard the Russians were vicious to there own men during the Russian revolution.

The general attitude of the commanders, and crews of the subs was "Hitler is an idiot, and Georing is a fat bastard." Probably because of the lack of support from the Luftwaffe. Only later in the war when Hitler youth brainwashed boys started joining did this attitude change, and usually these commanders were the least successful either through enemy action, or pure incompetance.

Now, for me... I hate the fact we humans are still fighting wars. I wish WWII sims were as far as one can go for war games because of the fact there are no more wars after WWII. I wish the type XXI was the ultimate in submarine development. I wish the B-29 was the final version of a bomber, and the shearman was the top of the line. Essentially I wish we stupid humans learned the lesson that war is both costly and stupid, and put our energies in something far far more worthwhile, such as the exploration of space, or the seas.

I would have qualms of playing a game from the tank commander of a german tank, or as a foot soldier view. The Lufwaffe was also very entrenched in the Nazi view, though most of the pilot's didn't give a fig about the party, they were just fighting for the fatherland. The aircraft of the Luftwaffe were many levels better than the allied machines later in the war, and to fly on that side in a sim is pretty much inevitable. Once again, be happy Hitler and Georing were idiots cause if the 262, Do 335, AR234, Go229, and other such machines got developed as they could have been, this world would be much different.

[IrishUboot]

the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.

Did a quick search on Wiki: "Before and during World War II, Mr. Boss' company both designed and manufactured uniforms and attire for the troops and officers of the Wehrmacht as well as for other governmental branches of Nazi Germany, including the SS."

You're right about the uniforms. They put the other belligerent parties to shame. If you're going to fight a war (declared upon your nation, of course), the least you can do is look your best.

[Spaxspore]

the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.
Did a quick search on Wiki: "Before and during World War II, Mr. Boss' company both designed and manufactured uniforms and attire for the troops and officers of the Wehrmacht as well as for other governmental branches of Nazi Germany, including the SS."

You're right about the uniforms. They put the other belligerent parties to shame. If you're going to fight a war (declared upon your nation, of course), the least you can do is look your best.

Yea ive always felt that the Germany miltary had the best looking uniforms (especially army) then any other country involved in the war.

[stabiz]

Yeah, the German officers look really cool. It is mentioned in a book called "An army at dawn", that the GI`s said "the krauts looked like they where on their way to a ball" when the Americans seized Tunisia and rounded up the remaining Germans.

[P_Funk]

the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.
Did a quick search on Wiki: "Before and during World War II, Mr. Boss' company both designed and manufactured uniforms and attire for the troops and officers of the Wehrmacht as well as for other governmental branches of Nazi Germany, including the SS."

You're right about the uniforms. They put the other belligerent parties to shame. If you're going to fight a war (declared upon your nation, of course), the least you can do is look your best.
Yea ive always felt that the Germany miltary had the best looking uniforms (especially army) then any other country involved in the war.
There is a reason you know. Hitler's view of the future of his German supernation was a work of absolute control, precision, and design. The German Whermacht and SS were as much if not more symbols of the master race as they were soldiers who defended it (and they were exemplary soldiers). The SS in particular were the guardians and the symbolic perfectionism of the master race, early in the war seeing the recruitment require physical perfection in both appearance and performance.

Also the extravagant beauty and complexity of the I guess you could call it "Nazi art" are likely derived from Hitler's views of the church. Hitler was very impressed with the ornate nature and tradition of the church though it's core beliefs he disdained. So likely I think he created a cultural and artistic tradition which his perfect nation could draw upon. The homogenous nature of his Third Reich required a powerful uniting emblem. The uniforms and symbols did this very much. And of course they were visually attractive to say the least. Now we can begin to see how he could have been so popular and successful.

But I digress.

Whew, a bit to much revisionist history in this thread for my taste, think it's best I bow out of it :roll:
I don't quite see what you mean. Are you objecting to people's assertion that not all german soldiers were blood thirsty heathens? If you're going to say such a thing I think you ought to support it instead of simply polluting the thread with a backhanded slam on what we've said. It is not a very honourable way of conversing.

[midshipsnake]

"Now, something I have learned with my research for this game is, the kreigsmarine submarine force was about as far from being a Nazi force as you could get."

Wanna Bet?
From Wikipedia 'Das Boot'

Criticism

In the movie, there is only one ardent Nazi in the crew of 40, namely the First Lieutenant (referred to comically in one scene as Unser Hitlerjugendführer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitlerjugendf%C3%BChrer) or "Our Hitler Youth Leader"), and the rest of the crew remains either indifferent or openly anti-Nazi (the Captain). Some have stated that this scenario is quite unlikely as most U-Boat crews were allegedly selected from those naval service members with strong belief in the Nazi Party[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]. At this stage in the war, morale was high and this degree of scepticism would have been unlikely.

[shegeek72]

Concerning just SHIII, I knew very little of the German Navy and U-Boats before playing. However after getting hooked it got me interested in the history and I have spent a lot of time reading books and websites about u-boats and the people who commanded and sailed in them. For me, its been a great experience and I have learnt a lot about what the German sailors went through and what they achieved.

I, too, knew next to nothing about U-boats and the German navy until I started playing SH3 and it has spurred study in U-boats. Both COD and SH3 taught me things I didn't know, or had forgotten, about WWII. If they had video games in high school I would've learned more than through the dry text books, and times and dates we were taught!

There was a documentary on PBS last night about D-Day and I found it fascinating about all the technology that had to be developed in just two years, like the Higgins-boat (unfortunately many of them sank when they were launched too far from shore) and the bravery of the two men who snuck onto Omaha beach at night to take sand depth measurements (for the tanks).
--
http://users4.ev1.net/%7Etaragem/moon_sub3.jpg

[Spaxspore]

am surprised no one has touhed on this. Yes hitler was bad... but Stalin was way worst....

And yet you can play as the russians all the time in FPS/SIMs

I realize stalin is not representing all the russians
Just as hitler and the nazis didnt represent all the germans


Its the same idea, churchhill made an alliance with him knowing full well of stalin and his deeds. But he choose the best of 2 evils...

My enemy of my enemy is my Friend



Number of victims

Early researchers of the number killed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll#Genocide_and_democide) by Stalin's regime were forced to rely largely upon anecdotal evidence, and their estimates range as high as 60 million.[9] (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-7)
With the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, hard evidence from the Soviet archives finally became available, and many of the earlier, higher estimates became more difficult to sustain. For example, the archives record that about 800,000 prisoners were executed (for either political or criminal offences) under Stalin, while another 1.7 million died of privation[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] or other causes in the Gulags and some 389,000 perished during kulak resettlement - a total of about 3 million victims.
Debate continues however[10] (http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/), since some historians believe the official figures are unreliable.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-8) Also, it is generally agreed that the data are incomplete, since some categories of victims were carelessly recorded by the Soviets - such as the victims of ethnic deportations, or of German population transfer in the aftermath of WWII.
Thus, while some archival researchers have posited the number of victims of Stalin's repressions to be no more than about 4 million in total [11] (http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html)[12] (http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-German_Soviet.pdf)[13] (http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/WCR-Scale_Repression.pdf), others believe the number to be considerably higher. Russian writer Vadim Erlikman[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-9), for example, has made the following estimations: Executions 1.5 million, Gulag 5 million, Deportations 1.7 million (out of 7.5 million deported), and POW's and German civilians 1 million, for a total of about 9 million victims of repression.
These numbers are by no means the full story of deaths attributable to the regime however, since at least another 6 to 8 million victims of the 1932-33 famine must be added.[14] (http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/faculty/harrison/reviews/davies-wheatcroft2004.pdf)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-11) But again historians differ, this time as to whether or not the famine victims were purposive killings - as part of the campaign of repression against kulaks - or whether they were simply unintended victims of the struggle over forced collectivization.
Regardless, it appears that a minimum of around 10 million surplus deaths (4 million by repression and 6 million from famine) are attributable to the regime, with a number of recent books suggesting a probable figure of somewhere between 15 to 20 million. Adding 6-8 million famine victims to Erlikman's estimates above, for example, would yield a figure of between 15 and 17 million victims. Pioneering researcher Robert Conquest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Conquest)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-12), meanwhile, has revised his original estimate of up to 30 million victims down to 20 million. Others, however, continue to maintain that their earlier much higher estimates are correct.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-13) However such estimates make little sense in terms of the demographic history of Russia. Haynes and Husan discuss all the different forms of mortality in Stalin's Russia drawing on contemporary Russian sources and modern calculations. They locate these in the context of the different surges in death and also point to unexplored issues about the class distribution of deaths.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#_note-14)


SOURCE: Wikipedia

[P_Funk]

"Now, something I have learned with my research for this game is, the kreigsmarine submarine force was about as far from being a Nazi force as you could get."

Wanna Bet?
From Wikipedia 'Das Boot'

Criticism

In the movie, there is only one ardent Nazi in the crew of 40, namely the First Lieutenant (referred to comically in one scene as Unser Hitlerjugendführer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitlerjugendf%C3%BChrer) or "Our Hitler Youth Leader"), and the rest of the crew remains either indifferent or openly anti-Nazi (the Captain). Some have stated that this scenario is quite unlikely as most U-Boat crews were allegedly selected from those naval service members with strong belief in the Nazi Party[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]. At this stage in the war, morale was high and this degree of scepticism would have been unlikely.

Firstly mate it isn't very credible to quote from a wikipedia when most of us who say that the kriegsmarine was far from a Nazi oriented wing of the German Military have our information from many books written by credible authors.

So I disagree with your assertion that the Kriegsmarine was another stoutly Nazi machine for the Third Reich. I say this not because of some misguided need to glorify a Navy which many of us are fascinated by but rather because of much evidence which I have encountered in many books about the U-boat war and the Kriegsmarine in general. Firstly the kriegsmarine, unlike the regular army, SS, and airforce, at the beginning of Hitler's reign was the same as that before he came to power. The command structure was maintained from a pre Nazi period and the internal operation of it was largely maintained by non-Nazi leaders. For instance Admiral Raeder and Doenitz were not members of Hitler's inner circle which accounts for the fact that the Kreigsmarine was often given a last say in allocation of funding.

Though Gunther Prien was a devout Nazi, Otto Kretchmer was a much more mild, realistic sailor who from what I've read was a nationalist and a good sailor but didn't have much taste for the glories of Naziism. The Kriegsmarine did it's duty for it's nation and it's sailors did the same. As was tyhe case all over Germany Hitler wasn't the evil tyrant that we now perceive him to be. That was an after war perception.

The fact is that the german navy was just the same as any navy, doing it's duty. In fact Doenitz once he had become admiral of the whole kriegsmarine resisted many of Hitler's more despicable attempts to alter navy policy. Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no. In fact numerous Kaleuns have been recorded as having helped survivors to their boats, given them food, and taken the most critically injured aboard and then tranferring them to neutral ships which they encountered. The most famous example of this was the Laconia affair where a u-boat accidentally torpedoed a hospital ship and immediately requested aid from bdu in helping to save the survivors. A number of U-boats were dispatched and aided the numerous injured. Bdu even attempted to contact the allies informing them of the icident and asking them not to attack the u-boats in the area who were undertaking the humanitarian mission. The allies ignored this and even bombed a u-boat which was displaying a red cross flag accross it's tower and was towing lifeboats behind her and had many survivors on her deck. The allies nearly bombed their own survivors.

No the kriegsmarine and the u-boats were not Nazis by and large. Sure there were many Nazis within the organization but primarily its function remained that of simple German Patriots and not viscious Nazis.

They were just soldiers like everyone else caught in the grasp of war which made everyone into victims and monsters.

[midshipsnake]

Moshe Leshem (former Israeli ambassador to UN)
"This (Bolshevism) was a movement staffed in its upper echelons by Jewish Communists and yet the world is comparatively silent about the holocaust and war crimes this thoroughly kosher system inflicted and the identity of the persons who were its architects. Auschwitz is on the tip of every tongue but who has heard of Kolyma, Magadan, the Solovetsky islands and the other infernal Soviet centers of human destruction in eastern Siberia? Who has seen films and books about the millions of human beings worked, frozen and starved to death in the construction of the White Sea-Baltic Canal, over which stood a triumphant, colossal statue of the Jewish communist mass murderer Genrikh Yagoda? The Jewish-communist epoch of mass murder has disappeared into history in one of the great vanishing acts of all time. Only practiced deceivers, with all the sleight of hand of the most accomplished stage magicians, could pull off such a coup against the rest of humanity. To trick mankind into focusing nearly all expiatory sentiment, monuments and commemoration on Jewish victims and brand the Mark of Cain - the very words war crime and holocaust itself - on Germany and upon Germans alone as their proprietary trademark, must be regarded as one of the most masterful achievements of psychological warfare in the annals of illusion... Israelis and American Jews fully agree that the memory of the Holocaust is an indispensable weapon - one that must be used relentlessly against their common enemy... Jewish organizations and individuals thus labor continuously to remind the world of it. In America, the perpetuation of the Holocaust memory is now a $100-million-a-year enterprise, part of which is government-funded." (Balaam's Curse: How Israel Lost Its Way, and How It Can Find It Again, 1989)

As for P Funk's comment, I'm pretty sure from my readings that the Nazis were nothing more than a dedicated band of German super patriots willing to lay down their lives to protect their country from the evils of communism. Where's wrong in that? Have you forgotten that the eastern half of Europe and Germany fell under Soviety tyranny because of Nazi's defeat?

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?

[Spaxspore]

"Now, something I have learned with my research for this game is, the kreigsmarine submarine force was about as far from being a Nazi force as you could get."

Wanna Bet?
From Wikipedia 'Das Boot'

Criticism

In the movie, there is only one ardent Nazi in the crew of 40, namely the First Lieutenant (referred to comically in one scene as Unser Hitlerjugendführer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitlerjugendf%C3%BChrer) or "Our Hitler Youth Leader"), and the rest of the crew remains either indifferent or openly anti-Nazi (the Captain). Some have stated that this scenario is quite unlikely as most U-Boat crews were allegedly selected from those naval service members with strong belief in the Nazi Party[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]. At this stage in the war, morale was high and this degree of scepticism would have been unlikely.
Firstly mate it isn't very credible to quote from a wikipedia when most of us who say that the kriegsmarine was far from a Nazi oriented wing of the German Military have our information from many books written by credible authors.

So I disagree with your assertion that the Kriegsmarine was another stoutly Nazi machine for the Third Reich. I say this not because of some misguided need to glorify a Navy which many of us are fascinated by but rather because of much evidence which I have encountered in many books about the U-boat war and the Kriegsmarine in general. Firstly the kriegsmarine, unlike the regular army, SS, and airforce, at the beginning of Hitler's reign was the same as that before he came to power. The command structure was maintained from a pre Nazi period and the internal operation of it was largely maintained by non-Nazi leaders. For instance Admiral Raeder and Doenitz were not members of Hitler's inner circle which accounts for the fact that the Kreigsmarine was often given a last say in allocation of funding.

Though Gunther Prien was a devout Nazi, Otto Kretchmer was a much more mild, realistic sailor who from what I've read was a nationalist and a good sailor but didn't have much taste for the glories of Naziism. The Kriegsmarine did it's duty for it's nation and it's sailors did the same. As was tyhe case all over Germany Hitler wasn't the evil tyrant that we now perceive him to be. That was an after war perception.

The fact is that the german navy was just the same as any navy, doing it's duty. In fact Doenitz once he had become admiral of the whole kriegsmarine resisted many of Hitler's more despicable attempts to alter navy policy. Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no. In fact numerous Kaleuns have been recorded as having helped survivors to their boats, given them food, and taken the most critically injured aboard and then tranferring them to neutral ships which they encountered. The most famous example of this was the Laconia affair where a u-boat accidentally torpedoed a hospital ship and immediately requested aid from bdu in helping to save the survivors. A number of U-boats were dispatched and aided the numerous injured. Bdu even attempted to contact the allies informing them of the icident and asking them not to attack the u-boats in the area who were undertaking the humanitarian mission. The allies ignored this and even bombed a u-boat which was displaying a red cross flag accross it's tower and was towing lifeboats behind her and had many survivors on her deck. The allies nearly bombed their own survivors.

No the kriegsmarine and the u-boats were not Nazis by and large. Sure there were many Nazis within the organization but primarily its function remained that of simple German Patriots and not viscious Nazis.

They were just soldiers like everyone else caught in the grasp of war which made everyone into victims and monsters.


Bloody well said :):up:

[IrishUboot]

I second that, Spaxspore. Well said, mate!

[rascal101]

Hi there,
I was very touched by your question not least because of a long family history with Germany. I'm sorry I have to write this in English, my apologies for not speaking German.

Many years ago I visited Germany, in the Stuttgart area around Blau Springs and Ulm. We went there to visit an old family friend who was a German student who stayed with our family in England off and on through the 60's.

One day, in the middle of winter we visited a very small church in the country, where as a small boy I was horified to see pictures of German soldiers on the walls of the church, the photos were commemorations of local German boys who had died in the war.

My Dad, who is Jewish turned to me and said something that will remain with me for the rest of my life, simply put, the boys in those photos in that church, may have been fanatics, perhaps not, but they did have families and their mothers had the right to mourn the loss of their sons as much as any other.

The lesson is this, what states do to other states or individuals can’t be helped, what matters is what individuals do when the chips are down.

For this reason I am perfectly happy to play as a U-Boat commander. The historic record tells us that far from the monsters the Allies tried to portray them, many U-Boat commanders were utterly civilised, humane human beings, who tried to offer some assistance to their victims.


Play the game, enjoy the history, at the end of the day German history is not so far distant from that of any other great nation.


I hope by my reply I have not, and od not offend any one who reads this.



Regards
Rascal.

[P_Funk]

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?

I forget exactly which book it was, I got it from the Library. However I recall reading that fact in a few books. And how do you suppose it is preposterous? In matters of the Navy he wasn't so decisive when his advisors said it was a bad idea. And how is that fact preposterous given the very widely documented Laconia affair?

[gabeeg]

Moshe Leshem (former Israeli ambassador to UN)
"This (Bolshevism) was a movement staffed in its upper echelons by Jewish Communists and yet the world is comparatively silent about the holocaust and war crimes this thoroughly kosher system inflicted and the identity of the persons who were its architects. Auschwitz is on the tip of every tongue but who has heard of Kolyma, Magadan, the Solovetsky islands and the other infernal Soviet centers of human destruction in eastern Siberia? Who has seen films and books about the millions of human beings worked, frozen and starved to death in the construction of the White Sea-Baltic Canal, over which stood a triumphant, colossal statue of the Jewish communist mass murderer Genrikh Yagoda? The Jewish-communist epoch of mass murder has disappeared into history in one of the great vanishing acts of all time. Only practiced deceivers, with all the sleight of hand of the most accomplished stage magicians, could pull off such a coup against the rest of humanity. To trick mankind into focusing nearly all expiatory sentiment, monuments and commemoration on Jewish victims and brand the Mark of Cain - the very words war crime and holocaust itself - on Germany and upon Germans alone as their proprietary trademark, must be regarded as one of the most masterful achievements of psychological warfare in the annals of illusion... Israelis and American Jews fully agree that the memory of the Holocaust is an indispensable weapon - one that must be used relentlessly against their common enemy... Jewish organizations and individuals thus labor continuously to remind the world of it. In America, the perpetuation of the Holocaust memory is now a $100-million-a-year enterprise, part of which is government-funded." (Balaam's Curse: How Israel Lost Its Way, and How It Can Find It Again, 1989)

As for P Funk's comment, I'm pretty sure from my readings that the Nazis were nothing more than a dedicated band of German super patriots willing to lay down their lives to protect their country from the evils of communism. Where's wrong in that? Have you forgotten that the eastern half of Europe and Germany fell under Soviety tyranny because of Nazi's defeat?



Once again, you are very much entitled too your opinions...but this is very much off topic. If you want to start a different "Nazi's were not so bad but those Jews..." thread, have at it...but not here. I find this thread fascinating...but not your comments, just my opinion. Moderator, Please break out your hatchet again ;)

[Spaxspore]

Hi there,
I was very touched by your question not least because of a long family history with Germany. I'm sorry I have to write this in English, my apologies for not speaking German.

Many years ago I visited Germany, in the Stuttgart area around Blau Springs and Ulm. We went there to visit an old family friend who was a German student who stayed with our family in England off and on through the 60's.

One day, in the middle of winter we visited a very small church in the country, where as a small boy I was horified to see pictures of German soldiers on the walls of the church, the photos were commemorations of local German boys who had died in the war.

My Dad, who is Jewish turned to me and said something that will remain with me for the rest of my life, simply put, the boys in those photos in that church, may have been fanatics, perhaps not, but they did have families and their mothers had the right to mourn the loss of their sons as much as any other.

The lesson is this, what states do to other states or individuals can’t be helped, what matters is what individuals do when the chips are down.

For this reason I am perfectly happy to play as a U-Boat commander. The historic record tells us that far from the monsters the Allies tried to portray them, many U-Boat commanders were utterly civilised, humane human beings, who tried to offer some assistance to their victims.


Play the game, enjoy the history, at the end of the day German history is not so far distant from that of any other great nation.


I hope by my reply I have not, and od not offend any one who reads this.



Regards
Rascal.


Well said:|\\

[Takeda Shingen]

I have never bought into these discussions, as I feel they are without relevence, but since this has gone on for five pages, I will do so now.

I enjoy submarine simulations. That is exactly what I am playing in SH3. I am playing with pixels. The voices are in German. The designs are based on a German u-boat from the Second World War. However, no consequence hangs on my actions. No one dies when a ship is sunk. No political rational is vindicated on victory, nor is it condemed on defeat. No swastika hangs in the virtual air.

In this, it is no different than playing as a Victor III in Sub Command (with SCU), or playing as a Perry FFG in Dangerous Waters. It is no different than playing as a Special Operations soldier in the Rainbow Six series, or an Su-33 in LOMAC. It is no different than playing as the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval Total War, or the Britons in Age of Empires II.

There is nothing political about any of it. It is a game. It is trivial. It is intended to be both of the afforementioned: Nothing more, nothing less. If more is seen there, then it is placed there by the user. I save my intuition for more important matters.

[IrishUboot]

It is no different than playing as the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval Total War, or the Britons in Age of Empires II.

There is nothing political about any of it. It is a game. It is trivial. It is intended to be both of the afforementioned: Nothing more, nothing less. If more is seen there, then it is placed there by the user. I save my intuition for more important matters.

This is correct. What we are doing is playing a game and enjoying our shared interest in that game. The very notion of guilt or stigma in enjoying that is preposterous, as is the idea that anyone should feel shame in portraying a Kriegsmarine ubootmann or a member of any of Germany's defence forces. It is that position which should be attacked, for it is purely without merit.

Members of my family served in all arms of the British forces, the RAF, the Royal Navy and the Army (parachute regiments I believe) throughout the war. While I cannot agree with their decision to do so, I was not present at the time and they were grown men capable of making their own decisions for right or for wrong. It is not my place to pass judgment on my family members, nor is it anyone elses to pass judgment on the men who served the call with honor in Germany. I know first hand that my grandfather's political opinions, like the majority of Irishmen, were closer to that of Nazi Germany than the position advocated by Britain during the war, but he served as an Irish volunteer nonetheless. One can only say that it is a great shame that Europeans suffered in an unnecessary war, a war that with European led diplomacy would surely have been avoided.

[MGR1]

I have never bought into these discussions, as I feel they are without relevence, but since this has gone on for five pages, I will do so now.

I enjoy submarine simulations. That is exactly what I am playing in SH3. I am playing with pixels. The voices are in German. The designs are based on a German u-boat from the Second World War. However, no consequence hangs on my actions. No one dies when a ship is sunk. No political rational is vindicated on victory, nor is it condemed on defeat. No swastika hangs in the virtual air.

In this, it is no different than playing as a Victor III in Sub Command (with SCU), or playing as a Perry FFG in Dangerous Waters. It is no different than playing as a Special Operations soldier in the Rainbow Six series, or an Su-33 in LOMAC. It is no different than playing as the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval Total War, or the Britons in Age of Empires II.

There is nothing political about any of it. It is a game. It is trivial. It is intended to be both of the afforementioned: Nothing more, nothing less. If more is seen there, then it is placed there by the user. I save my intuition for more important matters.

My view's pretty much the same. It's a game, nothing more.

Unfortunately, I'll admit to having a very slight hang-up (Pasted from the Mercantile Marine.org forum):

Cargo ship Empire Comet, 6,914grt, (MOWT, Scottish SS Co. Ltd mngrs) had loaded a general cargo including manganese ore, tea, groundnuts and linseed oil in Bombay for Manchester, sailing on the 12th November 1941. After a stop off at Table bay the ship sailed to Halifax, Nova Scotia where she joined up with the 27 ship Liverpool bound Convoy HX-174 which sailed on the 7th February 1942. It is believed around the 10th of February the ship became detached from the main Convoy whilst in dense fog. Lloyd War Losses Vol. I state she was last seen on the 17th February in approximate position 58' 14N 17' 00W. The ship, all 37 crew and 8 DEMS gunners were never seen again. A Joint Arbitration Committee considered her to be a "war loss" and a Missing Ship Committee considered her lost on the 19th February.

German records state that at 22.17 hours on the 17th February 1942 the Empire Comet was intercepted by U-136 West of Rockall and sunk by torpedo in position 58' 15N 17' 10W.

The Merchant Seamen lost in the sinking are commemorated on Tower Hill Memorial on Panel 39.

ANDERSON, Sailor, ROBERT WILLIAM, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 22. Son of James and Harriet M. Anderson, of Eshaness, Lerwick, Zetland.

BALFOUR, Sailor, JAMES THOMAS ARTHUR, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20.

BROOK, Apprentice, RICHARD DOUGLAS, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 16.

CHRISTIE, Junior Engineer Officer, ALEXANDER GARTSHORE, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 24.

CLARKE, Chief Steward, RUSSELL DOUGLAS, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 23. Son of Frederick William Benjamin Clarke, M.B.E. and Doris Rebecca Clark, of Forest Gate, Essex. His brother, Walter Denis, perished with him.

CLARKE, Assistant Cook, WALTER DENIS, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 18. Son of Frederick William Benjamin Clark, M.B.E. and Doris Rebecca Clarke of Forest Gate, Essex. His brother, Russell Douglas, perished with him.

DAVIES, Cabin Boy, WILLIAM, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 19. Son of Frederick C. and Gertrude Davies, of Newport, Monmouthshire.

DEARSON, Boatswain (Bosun), EDWARD ALBERT, M .V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 41. Son of Edward Dearson, and of Hannah Frances Dearson, of Forest Gate, Essex.

DIGGLE, Junior Engineer Officer, MAURICE ERNEST, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20. Son of Ernest and Mary Agnes Diggle, of Urmston, Lancashire.

FRODSHAM, Greaser, JOSEPH, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 33. Son of Richard and Sarah Ellen Frodsham; husband of Edith Frodsham, of Birkenhead.

GARRICK, Third Engineer Officer, ROBERT ALFRED, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 24.

GRANGE, Junior Engineer Officer, WILLIAM HUGH, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 27. Son of William Hugh and Rebecca Grange.

GRIERSON, Donkeyman, CHARLES CHRISTIE, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 27. Son of Margaret Currie Grierson, of Greenock, Renfrewshire.

HALCROW, Carpenter, WILFRED DONALD MOWAT, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 21. Son of Andrew and Margaret Halcrow, of Hamnavoe, Zetland.

HERD, Donkeyman and Greaser, DAVID, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 28.

LINDSAY, Able Seaman, WILLIAM WEIR, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20. Son of Charles and Helen Lindsay, of Portsoy, Banffshire.

MACDONALD, Ordinary Seaman, MURDO, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20. Son of Donald Macdonald and Christina Macdonald (nee Maciver), of Stornoway, Isle of Lewis.

MELVIN, Second Officer, JAMES WILLIAM, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 29.

MILNE, Third Officer, JOHN ALEXANDER, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 24.

MORROW, Second Engineer Officer, WILLIAM JOHN, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 38. Son of William John and Edith Ellen Morrow; husband of Maud Elsie Morrow, of Glengormley, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland.

MULLEN, Sailor, JAMES TERENCE, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20. Son of Thomas Joseph and Bridget Mullen, of Birkenhead.

McENTAGGART, Donkeyman, BERNARD, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 30. Son of Patrick John and Anne Marie McEntaggart; husband of Mary Josephine McEntaggart, of Plaistow, Essex.

McILROY, Engineer Officer, SIDNEY ALEXANDER, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 26.

NICOLSON, Sailor, JAMES ARTHUR, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 25. Son of James A. and Ellen Nicolson. His brother Andrew Bruce Nicolson also fell.

PUTZ, Second Radio Officer, ALBERT LESLIE, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 19. Son of Albert Edgar and Margaret Jane Putz, of Burry Port, Carmarthenshire.

RICHARDSON, Third Radio Officer, ERNEST, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20.

ROBERTSON, Apprentice, ANGUS BANNERMAN, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 16. Son of John J. and Mary Robertson, of Inverurie, Aberdeenshire.

SCOTT, Engineer Officer, EDWARD, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 22. Son of Edward and Susan Scott; nephew of Agnes M. Suffern, of Carnmoney, Co. Antrim, Northern Ireland.

SIMM, Chief Engineer Officer, JOHN, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 41. Son of Arthur and Mary Ann Simm; husband of Bertha Simm, of Sidcup, Kent.

TIERNEY, Cook, WILLIAM, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 23. Son of Patrick and Mary Tierney, of Belfast, Northern Ireland.

TULLOCH, Able Seaman, JOHN ANDERSON, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 27. Son of Robert and Gilbertha Tulloch, of Scalloway, Zetland. His brother Robert William perished with him.

TULLOCH, Able Seaman, ROBERT WILLIAM, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 25. Son of Robert and Gilbertha Tulloch, of Scalloway, Zetland. His brother John Anderson Tulloch perished with him.

WATSON, First Radio Officer, CHARLES, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 28. Son of Charles and Catherine Watson; husband of Janet Watson, of Greenock, Renfrewshire.

WILLIS, Master, HECTOR RAYMENT, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 40. Son of William Rayment Willis and Ada Dent Willis; husband of Ethel Irene Willis, of Sunderland, Co. Durham.

WINTHORPE, Steward, NORMAN SPENCE, S.S. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 20. Son of John Spence Winthorpe and Eleanor Ann Winthorpe, of Birkenhead

WOOD, Ordinary Seaman, HARRY, M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942. Age 19. Son of John H. and Grace D. Wood, of Roe Brae, Zetland.

Canadian Commemorated Halifax Memorial.

DONNELLY, Assistant Steward, JAMES M.V. Empire Comet (Greenock). Merchant Navy. 19th February 1942.

Third Officer John Milne was my Great-Uncle.:cry:

As a result, I have a tendency to avoid the area around the Rockall Bank. Silly, perhaps, but it's there.

U-136 was subsequently sunk west of Maderia by a French Destroyer and a British Frigate and Sloop. No survivors either.

RIP Uncle Alec.

Mike.

[IrishUboot]

I extend my deep sympathy on your loss.

[mountainmanUK]

As said by a few others, I have been a little reluctant to post on this thread, despite the perfectly innocent questions raised by the originator.
Speaking purely on a personal level, as an ex-Merchant Navy Navigation Officer, I play SH3 primarily because I enjoy playing the "game", I find the whole graphics and atmosphere pretty realistic (after a touch of mega-modding!), and to a certain extent it takes me back to some of my times out on the deep, dark seas.
The fact that I am playing the role of a Uboat Captain, and therefore obviously German, does not enter into it. It would be the same if I were role-playing as the Captain of one ofthose annoying little Flower Corvettes, or the poor old Tankers that we all try so hard to find. At the end of the day (Oh, how I hate that phrase!) we are all simply role-playing.
I must admit that I do, where possible, play as realistically as I can, in that I use 100% Realism, All-manual targetting, etc. i also try to use correct real-life people as my crew and officers, though it is not always possible to use an entire "real" crew from one particular Patrol, I use a mix of crew that served on board my particular Uboat at some stage during their careers. The most important thing, to me, in using real people in my Patrols is that I always, without fail, will attempt to bring some dignity to my actions while playing SH3, and in some cases try to give some poor Matrosengefreiter who in reality was killed in, say, 1940 on his first patrol, some kind of reincarnation, even if only in a computer game. I have the ultimate respect for all those either killed, injured, or survived the REAL Uboat War, and I try my best to show them that respect in my gameplay.
To me, my SH3 crew become real people, and I treat them as such, as in correct watch rotation, shoreleave, and correct Station assignment. I usually get angry with myself, if I allow one of my crew to be killed whilst serving under my command.

OK, so some may think I'm taking things a bit far, but I really enjoy the "immersion" that building these relationships can breed. I am one of those SH3 players who get just as much satisfaction from returning from Patrol with only one miserable Coastal Merchant to my credit, but having survived numerous heavy DC attacks and finally crept away from a persistent escort with my boat and crew in one piece, as I do when returning without seeing a single Destroyer and racking up 50000 tons of sunken ships.

The nationality, politics, or any other difference between people is irrelevant. The men who served in the Ubootewaffe did so with just the same dedication, trepidation, and sometimes terror, as their british or American or otherwise counterparts. We were, or are, all "men of the sea" and thus have a mutual bond that surpasses any national or political boundaries.

Just MHO

cheers

[P_Funk]

The nationality, politics, or any other difference between people is irrelevant. The men who served in the Ubootewaffe did so with just the same dedication, trepidation, and sometimes terror, as their british or American or otherwise counterparts. We were, or are, all "men of the sea" and thus have a mutual bond that surpasses any national or political boundaries.

Just MHO

cheers

Exactly mate. Precisely what I have tried to say though your words carry more gravity considering your history.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy.

That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

[P_Funk]

I agree with that sentiment as well. Someone once said that countries fight for causes, and leaders fight for different reasons, but the soldier (sailor) in the field fights for his comerades, friends, buddies, and little else. That's why shows like Band of Brothers and, yes, Das Boot have such a strong effect on the viewer: it's the relationships between the men that make the show work, not the action or the attitude toward the enemy.

That's one of the things that make air and naval sims like this worth playing. In a small way we develop that same sort of bond: we may never meet, and really we're just pretending to fight a war, but look at how much time and effort we spend to relate our different and yet common experiences. Reading about someone's adventures (and misadventures) playing a stupid game makes me feel like I know that person just a little better, simply because we share a passion for something.

I LOVE YOU TOO MAN! *bursts into tears and buries face into Steve's chest*

[John Channing]

Group Hug!


Jcc

[catar M]

No problem here it's only PC game and they were only soldiers. They had to do their job as the fellows on opposite side. I was in a Army and you find that reason you fight or join is not much for Ideals or leaders as is for your mates. As you can see on my sig "NAK" or in German "DAK" is North Afrika Korp which was German unit and my + 60 others have no problem naming our gaming community after German unit

[Eichenlaub]

"Hitler wanted Uboats to kill any survivors it encountered though Doenitz insisted no." No offense, but it sounds pretty preposterous. May I ask what's your source is on this?


I believe I read it in both "Cursed sea" by Cajus Bekker and "The Battle of the Atlantic" by Andrew Williams. Don't have the time to look up the pagenumbers, but I can reommend reading these books anyway. "Cursed sea" delves deeply into the personalities of Raeder and Dönitz and how their character traits impacted upon naval strategy. Their relations with Hitler are covered less deeply, but still mentioned.
These orders being refused isn't surprising though. Luftwaffe fighter ace Adolf Galland succesfully resisted Hermann Goering's order to fire on parachuting aircrew...

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Eichenlaub]

Dear subsimmers,

I've not been able to respond in full to this thread for the past days, but I did read up occasionally. I feel that some of the statements here are a little too black or white.

Statements here concerning the honourability and fighting motives of the "average German soldier" were on the whole very forgiving. I think the subject is too difficult to generalize so easily. My position on the matter is somewhat different from many of you I suppose. My position is that in those days, there were too many types of people in the Reich, doing their things for all kinds of different reasons, to easily arrive at assumptions, one-liners or generalizations.

There were ardent nazi's, half-hearted nazi's and people who stepped in line just because they didn't know any better or were lacking in insight, or thought they were doing their country a favour, or were misled or even plain stupid. At the height of nazi-popularity, somewhere in 1938 (IIRC), the nazi's could count on support from about 38% of the nation. After that, Germany went on a collision course with the rest of the world at such a pace that the nazi's support base decreased. This means that in ordinary life, about 1 in 3 persons could be involved to some degree in nazism. That's a major issue, here's why: it is incredibly difficult to tell how involved a person was and consequently, how "right" or "wrong" a person or group was during the war.

Seeing as the nazi movement was designed by Hitler to appeal to broad population segments and was actually capable of transgressing intuitive contradictions (nationalists and socialists didn't share their coffee ladies & gentlemen, yet the party was named National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei), the movement achieved a following throughout every layer of the German people. From politicians to intellectuals to grocers to labourers.

From the previous two paragraphs we can deduce that this broadly layered movement must be reflected in the armed forces. There may have been sections within the armed forces that were slanted more towards or away from nazism, but generally the tenet holds true that "every unit had his nazi". Unfortunately I've lost the name of the historian I just quoted, but the truth of it must be evident. Furthermore, I feel that one nazi per unit could be a low estimate, depending on the unit size. To retain our submarine setting, I think that a typical crew of 48 would contain about 10-16 hands of nazi incliniation. And now we arrive at a problem we just encountered at the end of my third paragraph: the level of indoctrination, or how convinced were those nazis? The question cannot be answered by any of us, after all these years.

A new question pops up right after the previous assertion, and it is this: so these nazis are in a military unit, a submarine in our example, but to what extent would one really notice this? There were nazis who didn't impose their views, or didn't go about lecturing others - at least not during combat conditions. Then there were the hardcore chaps who went really far with their views; I need to remind very few of you of what happened to Oscar Kusch of U-154.

The war has been over for 61 years now, and a lot of distortion creeps in during such a lengthy period. People have a need to deal with their past and possibly guilt, which can lead to some recolouring of events. There is still a fog of war out there.

All of these problems lead me to the conclusion that generalizing is rather dangerous. Instead I opt to look at things as close as possible, at the individual if possible. It's a difficult approach. Keep looking for the truth - it's usually grey.

I'll write more when I can spare the time again.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[flyingdane]

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. :nope:

[stabiz]

:huh:

[SubSerpent]

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. :nope:


They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.



Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis, vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.



By MENNEN

[flyingdane]

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. :nope:

They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.



Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis,vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.



By MENNEN

Did the germans attack the british people In ww2 Or am i wrong hear. and if i am than why wear so many of us USA Forces People there To help........Huh?

[flyingdane]

I hope your not looking for pittiy because you will not find it here, your peopole at that time The (Germans) attacted the britts, and wee as americans don't like that '!!
we don't like to see our Friends get the shaft. :nope:


They did what to the Brits? Attacted? What the hell is that? Sounds like some type bad name for an underarm deodorant...

Commercial:

When you're feeling unfresh, grab the stick that does the trick, so you can go through your day with confidence knowing that you are protected by ATTACTED. Yes, that's right! ATTACTED, the revolutionized new underarm deodorant by Mennen. It sticks to your underarm to give you long lasting, all day freshness and protection from wetness and odor, so when your boss asks you to hand over that report, you can do it knowing full well that he's smelling your fresh new scent.



Warning: Side effects may cause itching, burning, watery eyes, runny nose, coughing, sneezing, nausea, stomach ache, headache, back pain, chest pain, swelling, rash, diarrhea, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, AIDS, impotence, cancer, liver disease, heart disease, kidney disease, parkinson's disease, cooties, SARS, muscle pain, joint pain, blisters, genital warts, herpes, lice, scabies, trichomoniasis, vaginal yeast infections, chlamydia, nose bleeds, gas, lumps, stumps, bumps, and bird flu.



By MENNEN




















































































how would you know anyway??:hmm:

[SubSerpent]

Lighten up! I was just making fun of the word "attacted". That is all. Nothing more, nothing less. It just sounds funny is all. I don't even care that what you meant to type was misspelled. I understood perfectly somehow of what you were saying. I just like the word "attacted". Like I said, it sounds like it should be an underarm deodorant.

I am not knocking your post here. I understand you still feel bitter about the Germans and what they did during WWII. No problem with that and I agree. The Nazi's during WWII were some bad dudes. But SHIII is just a game and is not real. It is an educational naval simulator IMHO. I've learned more about U-boats since playing this sim than I really wanted.

Just tone your language and offensive post down a bit though or you won't be here long.

[Gizzmoe]

SubSerpent, please check your PM. And please stop making fun of peoples spelling. You did that in General Topics and now you do it here...

[SubSerpent]

<Edit - Gizzmoe>

[IrishUboot]

Fires a tin fish at this thread and hopes for a quick sinking.

[Onkel Neal]

SubSerpent, please check your PM. And please stop making fun of peoples spelling. You did that in General Topics and now you do it here...

I second that.