Mental capacity

[SUBMAN1]

My work load killing me (2 more weeks left of it though). My mental capacity for the last 1.5 months is less than 40%. I cannot think straight (as a few of you may have realized lately), nor do I have much energy. I need a mental break to come back online.

I'm currently working on something of a mental break you might say though - and yes my idea of a mental break is probably a lot different than yours - Dealing with reducing an NTSC source to 15 FPS. Now you may realize that NTSC is 29.97 FPS. Most movies are actually 23.976024 FPS, and the 29.97 FPS is achieved through a drop frame. However, interlaced material is running at double NTSC at 59.94 FPS but with alternating lines and your brain puts it together at 29.97 which is basically out of your comprehension anyway so it looks like a smooth picture because your brain can't think beyond this many FPS.

Now the trick is reducing normal interlaced material or progressive material down to 15 FPS smoothly since as you may guess, 15 does not divide into 29.97, so you will get a jerk in a movie - probably twice per second. I figured out that it is bad to go through a telecide and decimate since that makes the FPS worse due to less available frames to choose from when one does not line up properly. I should just probably skip the decimate cycle or use a blending frame instead and treat the video as a pure interlaced source in an effort for smoother playback.

My expertise comes from keeping video pure so that one does not know it was compressed in the first place. I now have this iRiver Clix that deals in MPEG 4 @ 15 FPS so if anyone has any knowledge on tricking smooth playback at a slower FPS than normal, I'd like to hear it. I can do a pretty good smooth playback on it already, but just looking for some tricks from someone thats been there.

-S

PS. My AVISynth script for the current vid I am working on looks like this:

LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\Decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("VTS.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
Telecide(guide=1,post=2)
Decimate(cycle=5,mode=1)
Lanczos4Resize(320,240)
ChangeFPS(15)
AudioDub(WAVSource("vts.wav"))

The Decimate is currently set for frame blending, but I am not sure I want that anymore.

[kiwi_2005]

My work load killing me (2 more weeks left of it though). My mental capacity for the last 1.5 months is less than 40%. I cannot think straight (as a few of you may have realized lately), nor do I have much energy. I need a mental break to come back online.

I'm currently working on something of a mental break you might say though - and yes my idea of a mental break is probably a lot different than yours - Dealing with reducing an NTSC source to 15 FPS. Now you may realize that NTSC is 29.97 FPS. Most movies are actually 23.976024 FPS, and the 29.97 FPS is achieved through a drop frame. However, interlaced material is running at double NTSC at 59.94 FPS but with alternating lines and your brain puts it together at 29.97 which is basically out of your comprehension anyway so it looks like a smooth picture because your brain can't think beyond this many FPS.

Now the trick is reducing normal interlaced material or progressive material down to 15 FPS smoothly since as you may guess, 15 does not divide into 29.97, so you will get a jerk in a movie - probably twice per second. I figured out that it is bad to go through a telecide and decimate since that makes the FPS worse due to less available frames to choose from when one does not line up properly. I should just probably skip the decimate cycle or use a blending frame instead and treat the video as a pure interlaced source in an effort for smoother playback.

My expertise comes from keeping video pure so that one does not know it was compressed in the first place. I now have this iRiver Clix that deals in MPEG 4 @ 15 FPS so if anyone has any knowledge on tricking smooth playback at a slower FPS than normal, I'd like to hear it. I can do a pretty good smooth playback on it already, but just looking for some tricks from someone thats been there.

-S

PS. My AVISynth script for the current vid I am working on looks like this:

LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\Decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("VTS.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
Telecide(guide=1,post=2)
Decimate(cycle=5,mode=1)
Lanczos4Resize(320,240)
ChangeFPS(15)
AudioDub(WAVSource("vts.wav"))

The Decimate is currently set for frame blending, but I am not sure I want that anymore.

I have low energy just reading that:-? What do you do for a living sounds like your some movie editor:hmm:

[SUBMAN1]

My work load killing me (2 more weeks left of it though). My mental capacity for the last 1.5 months is less than 40%. I cannot think straight (as a few of you may have realized lately), nor do I have much energy. I need a mental break to come back online.

I'm currently working on something of a mental break you might say though - and yes my idea of a mental break is probably a lot different than yours - Dealing with reducing an NTSC source to 15 FPS. Now you may realize that NTSC is 29.97 FPS. Most movies are actually 23.976024 FPS, and the 29.97 FPS is achieved through a drop frame. However, interlaced material is running at double NTSC at 59.94 FPS but with alternating lines and your brain puts it together at 29.97 which is basically out of your comprehension anyway so it looks like a smooth picture because your brain can't think beyond this many FPS.

Now the trick is reducing normal interlaced material or progressive material down to 15 FPS smoothly since as you may guess, 15 does not divide into 29.97, so you will get a jerk in a movie - probably twice per second. I figured out that it is bad to go through a telecide and decimate since that makes the FPS worse due to less available frames to choose from when one does not line up properly. I should just probably skip the decimate cycle or use a blending frame instead and treat the video as a pure interlaced source in an effort for smoother playback.

My expertise comes from keeping video pure so that one does not know it was compressed in the first place. I now have this iRiver Clix that deals in MPEG 4 @ 15 FPS so if anyone has any knowledge on tricking smooth playback at a slower FPS than normal, I'd like to hear it. I can do a pretty good smooth playback on it already, but just looking for some tricks from someone thats been there.

-S

PS. My AVISynth script for the current vid I am working on looks like this:

LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\Decomb.dll")
mpeg2source("VTS.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()
Telecide(guide=1,post=2)
Decimate(cycle=5,mode=1)
Lanczos4Resize(320,240)
ChangeFPS(15)
AudioDub(WAVSource("vts.wav"))

The Decimate is currently set for frame blending, but I am not sure I want that anymore.

I have low energy just reading that:-? What do you do for a living sounds like your some movie editor:hmm:

When I figure out my job, I'll let you know, but I think I am some sort of sys admin person on a daily basis. Depending on who walks in the door, I even have multiple business cards to make sure I am presenting the right side at any given point in time. You might say I have multiple titles, but as you may guess, this is somewhat tiring - hence my efforts to move myself out of the position I am in and on to something that I can make a difference at. I think I have worked myself into a position that I will never be promoted from because I am too valuable where I'm at. It did make me get passed over for 2 layoff's, but now I am starting to see the downside of that.

In the meantime, video - is just a hobby of mine to make perfect movies and to understand how things fit together. I am fluent in Sonic Scenarist, and as you may guess, I use AVISynth as a frameserver to filter my video productions. And as I may have guessed there is no one on this board that knows much about AVISynth scripts and filters - or at least not yet.

Anyway, if you want to do your own videos, I suggest you learn a good frame server like AVISynth. You can manipulate anything you want with it. Its only drawback is that no one takes the time to figure it out, but to anyone that does, they have a superior tool on their hands for video production.

-S

http://www.avisynth.org/

[Gizzmoe]

I loaded a 23.976 FPS source into VirtualDub and converted it to 15. The playback was ok. All I did was to set Video -> Framerate -> Convert to fps to 15.

[SUBMAN1]

I loaded a 23.976 FPS source into VirtualDub and converted it to 15. The playback was ok. All I did was to set Video -> Framerate -> Convert to fps to 15.

VirtualDub is my ultimate tool for this. Its actually the only way to mux the audio back in. I created a script and DIVX won't take it as an audio source yet. Need to figure out why. Anyway, it looks OK. What I am lloking for is perfect smooth. I need some 15 FPS AVISynth info since I want to use an VirtualDUB direct stream copy if at all possible.

Cool that you know something about it Gizzmoe! :up: If I can find a file host (Does anyone know of any?), I can post a sample.

-S

[Gizzmoe]

I need some 15 FPS AVISynth info since I want to use an VirtualDUB direct stream copy if at all possible.
Try ConvertFPS instead of ChangeFPS. But it´s probably easier to just load the source material into VirtualDub...

If I can find a file host (Does anyone know of any?), I can post a sample.
www.rapidshare.de (http://www.rapidshare.de) or www.filefront.com (http://www.filefront.com).

[SUBMAN1]

I need some 15 FPS AVISynth info since I want to use an VirtualDUB direct stream copy if at all possible.
Try ConvertFPS instead of ChangeFPS. But it´s probably easier to just load the source material into VirtualDub...

If I can find a file host (Does anyone know of any?), I can post a sample.
www.rapidshare.de (http://www.rapidshare.de) or www.filefront.com (http://www.filefront.com).
Thanks - tried that already. ConvertFPS has a limitation of 19 FPS.

I'll try VirtualDub but since I have to frameserve the material, I find the quality better to do it (FPS conversion) before it hits Virtual Dub instead of after.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I should point out that it already looks pretty good. It is just myself trying to get as much smoothness out of 15 FPS as possible, and maybe I can't do much better than I already have.

-S

[Gizzmoe]

I have to frameserve the material

Why? Is it a format VirtualDub can´t read?

[SUBMAN1]

I have to frameserve the material
Why? Is it a format VirtualDub can´t read?

Yes - DVD VOB. The whole point is getting a DVD movie onto my new iriver Clix so I can watch something on the road or airplane. So the file is read with DGIndex which creates the d2v file, which is then loaded into AVISynth which acts as the frame server. I guess I could demux the video stream, but this isn't very practical for a 2 hour movie since it would probably eat 140 GB+.

-S

[Gizzmoe]

VOB is MPEG-2, you can read them with VirtualDub-MPEG2:
http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/stable/

I rip the DVD first with Smartripper so that I get a single VOB, then open it directly in VirtualDub.

[SUBMAN1]

Yes, but will this convert to YUY2? DVD's native format is YV12 and that is not able to be displayed on a computer screen correctly. If there is a transfer that is going to happen, I would probably rather have AVISynth do the conversion. This way I can control how it is decoded.

Regardless though, I can remove all my filters except the YUY2 and just frameserve with AVISynth. Of course, the best quality filters will be with AVISynth, but I'll check out how VIrtualDUB does with it first.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

This right here is basically RAW video:

LoadPlugin("D:\Temp\dgmpgdec148\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("VTS.d2v")
ConvertToYUY2()

[Gizzmoe]

Yes, but will this convert to YUY2? DVD's native format is YV12 and that is not able to be displayed on a computer screen correctly.
AFAIK DVD format isn´t YV12. XviD and DivX use YV12 and there are no display problems as you know. Besides, VD can convert to any color format you want, as long as the target codec supports it.

Of course, the best quality filters will be with AVISynth, but I'll check out how VIrtualDUB does with it first.
I doubt that AVISynth´s filters are superior to VD´s. VD has for example excellent deinterlace and resize filters.

[SUBMAN1]

VirtualDUB does have excellent filters, but not as good as a dedicated filter. Its all in the detection rates for deinterlacing and AVISynth is way superior in that if you use Neurons Decomb filter. This is what professional people use.

Also, yes, DVD is YV12. It goes through a conversion to YUY2 before it hits your computer screen or even your TV. I'll take a screenshot of what it looks like native - its all purple shades and ugly. VirtualDUB cannot decode it without loading a YV12 filter either.

Here is the breakdown:

DVDs - These use MPEG2 with 4:2:0 YUV (YV12) color. There is one chroma sample for each square of 2x2 pixels (unlike the YUY2 picture above which has one chroma for each group of 2x1 pixels).

DV - This uses 4:1:1 YUV which has the same number of chroma samples as MPEG2 but in a different order.

Mjpeg - This can use all kinds of YUV sampling but 4:2:0 (YV12) is very common.

MPEG1, 2 and 4 (divx etc) all use YV12 color (although they can technically support other YUV modes in theory, just not in practice). There are MPEG2 profiles (such as the Studio Profile) which can deal with 4:2:2 chorma but mostly you will see 4;2:0 chroma being used.

HuffYUV - currently YUY2 and RGB storage is possible. YV12 is developmental.

HuffYUV is my favorite lossless compressor. You can squeeze about 140 GB into about 40-80 GB.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Cool - I found a modified VirtualDUB that can read YV12. I'll take a screenshot of a non colorspace converted DVD pic - its real ugly.

-S

http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtualdubmod

[Gizzmoe]

VirtualDUB does have excellent filters, but not as good as a dedicated filter. Its all in the detection rates for deinterlacing and AVISynth is way superior in that if you use Neurons Decomb filter.

There are many 3rd party filters for VD and Neuron has also written a Deinterlace filter (and many others) for VD.

Anyway, you should try it with VD. It´s easy to use and the results are excellent. AVISynth can be, as you know, a pain in the ass sometimes.

[SUBMAN1]

Scratch that - VirtualDUB's latest seems to be able to handle YV12 now. It didn't use to.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

VirtualDUB does have excellent filters, but not as good as a dedicated filter. Its all in the detection rates for deinterlacing and AVISynth is way superior in that if you use Neurons Decomb filter.
There are many 3rd party filters for VD and Neuron has also written a Deinterlace filter (and many others) for VD.

Anyway, you should try it with VD. It´s easy to use and the results are excellent. AVISynth can be, as you know, a pain in the ass sometimes.

I hear ya on AVISynth. The thing that bugs me the most is proper format in setting the filters.

[Gizzmoe]

Scratch that - VirtualDUB's latest seems to be able to handle YV12 now. It didn't use to.

That´s right, but since early 2005 or so it does! ;)

[Iceman]

I made ya a place on my site for you to ftp files to if you need to for testing.If you need it pm me sometime and I'll give ya the info.I have played around ome with virtudub and I can't really help you in what you were discussing as it is way over my head but I can offer you some space if you need it.You just need a FTP program like core ftp which is free...using dreamweaver to ftp to it will not work on my hosting site.

[SUBMAN1]

I made ya a place on my site for you to ftp files to if you need to for testing.If you need it pm me sometime and I'll give ya the info.I have played around ome with virtudub and I can't really help you in what you were discussing as it is way over my head but I can offer you some space if you need it.You just need a FTP program like core ftp which is free...using dreamweaver to ftp to it will not work on my hosting site.
Thanks,

I'll upload a sample if I know where to go.

-S

PS. Never mind - wouldn't be the big link in the middle of your post would it? :)

[SUBMAN1]

There are a couple on there. The Red_Flag vid is not deinterlaced in that form however since I think it makes it look slightly better when it is finially compressed to 320x240. I am still experimenting however.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

I uploaded a proper version of the Red_Flag video that is properly deinterlaced, yet still uses interpolated frames to try and smooth out the video.

-S

[Iceman]

I uploaded a proper version of the Red_Flag video that is properly deinterlaced, yet still uses interpolated frames to try and smooth out the video.

-S

Dude that is one sweet car :up: ...use the space as you need bro.

https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20Koenigsegg.avi

[SUBMAN1]

I uploaded a proper version of the Red_Flag video that is properly deinterlaced, yet still uses interpolated frames to try and smooth out the video.

-S
Dude that is one sweet car :up: ...use the space as you need bro.

https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20Koenigsegg.avi

Thanks. The video has to be 320x240 and has to be 15 FPS and has to be MPEG 4 and has to be 128 k/bit MP3 audio. I think I got it pretty smooth for my limitations.

That car by the way is only the 650 HP version too. THere is an 805 HP version as well.

-S

[Iceman]

The car vid had one spot right at the begining that the audio faded in and out for like a few seconds but rest of whole video was great.Use the space for whatever you need to I look forward to seeing what ya do with any future video... do whatever ya need to with the space..there is plenty of it so don't worry about file sizes to much..

[SUBMAN1]

The car vid had one spot right at the begining that the audio faded in and out for like a few seconds but rest of whole video was great.Use the space for whatever you need to I look forward to seeing what ya do with any future video... do whatever ya need to with the space..there is plenty of it so don't worry about file sizes to much..

Nothing I can do about the audio fade - It's the source.

I think they are trying to overwhelm you with all the facts, but forget that some of us are intelligent enough to understand them. Regardless though, the vid shows you what you need to know - a car unlike any other.

-S

[Gizzmoe]

https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20Koenigsegg.avi

Good quality! Is that the version that you´ve frameserved with AVISynth?

[SUBMAN1]

https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20Koenigsegg.avi
Good quality! Is that the version that you´ve frameserved with AVISynth?

Yep. I am limited to 384 kbps as well, but its not bad for 15 FPS.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Thats only one pass though. THe clarity can still be improved by doing a 2 pass compression. I was mainly interested in frame rate smoothness though.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Konigsegg bites back with new CCX:

https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20KoenigseggCCXreturns.avi
(https://cyberallies.sslpowered.com/subman/Top%20Gear%20-%20KoenigseggCCXReturns.avi)