Modern divorce

[Onkel Neal]

Has anyone else noticed that it seems most divorces are initiated by the woman? Every one I talk with, over the last 5 years or so, both men and women, it's always the woman who started the divorce.

[scandium]

Good question, I can't recall ever seeing any stats on this but assuming you're right (and my gut says you are but it could be wrong, or I could just be hungry) I'll toss out a few possible vaguely sociological theories as to why this might be so, though what underlines them all is what I'll call the contradiction between feminist ideals/demands and a reality where certain traditional norms are still demanded of the male; so here we go:

1. More and more families are dual income families and wage parity is approaching equality between the sexes, at the same time many traditionally high paying jobs that were held exclusively by males are now held by both sexes; thus, fewer women are dependent on the male "bread-winner" for support, but rather have their own incomes and careers. This phenomena is partially due to feminist gains, and partly due to economic realities where relative wages and benefits in most sectors have declined making it increasingly difficult for a single wage earner to support a family (except in the higher income brackets);

2. its been observed that marriage is mostly now between couples of similar socio-economic backgrounds; although people occassionally "marry up" or down, it is by far the exception and not the norm, and marriage is becoming as much an economic union as anything else;

3. the demands for higher levels of education and the difficulty today, versus say 40 years ago, of finding a good paying secure job in one's field is increasingly difficult, meaning it often requires several years of schooling followed by several years of entry level work before one finds secure, reasonable paying employment they are content with; thus, couples tend to delay marriage and delay children much longer than they did say 40 years ago;

4. summarizing the first three points, then, a young married couple will likely wish to delay having children for several years, will likely both be employed in entry level jobs for the first years of their marriage, and that taking place of the bond of children will be the economic bond;

5. the male is raised in a society where for him a double standard exists: on the one hand, he has placed upon him the obligation - by societal norms and spousal expectations - to be the bread-winner while the female spouse is under no such obligation, yet is expected to be free to pursue employment/career if she wishes (but it is not for her the obligation it is for the male, this is the double standard);

6. from all the above the theory: the male will tend to marry a female from within his own socio-economic background, but for him that's as far as it goes; the female, on the other hand, will do the same but for her, having the expectation that the male will be the bread winner, will expect his income to match her own and if his does not increase in relation to her own, then she becomes in effect the "bread-winner" and the male spouse becomes a "dead beat" or a "loser" and is devalued in her eyes (the reverse is not true), making the economic bond of their marriage a precarious one; and, further, having the autonomy of her own career and (likely) not being encumbered by children she may be inclined to divorce the male to seek a new partner that matches her improved economic circumstances where again, the reverse is not true (the male leaving for that reason).

This is my ad hoc theory, feel free to pick it apart or add to it. :p

[kiwi_2005]

I wouldn't say no to that. Men see there wives as there best friend, there rock so to speak and at times there problem solver therefore they are quick to forgive and forget they aren't going to give up there best mate and the mother of there children that easy. Woman on the other hand tend to be more katty you can only go so far with them before they start filing for divorce, and to add to the wound theres no mercy, your left with the clothes your wearing and a huge lawyers bill. And in my case the kids! :)

Marriage scares the hell out of me. :confused: I dont think i could ever remarry.

[scandium]

Marriage scares the hell out of me.

Same here. My father has been three times married; both times the divorce was initiated by the spouse, and in the second divorce it was a text book example of my theory (they had no children, they had both worked and both climed the economic ladder, though for most of their marriage he had always made more, but her leaving him followed a major promotion at the company she worked for and with it a big raise that put her income for the first time above his - although there were other problems in the marriage, I think this one weighed heavily on the "cut and run" vs "make it work" scale (that and the lack of children).

Myself I would not rush into marriage until I had weighed the consequences of divorce long and hard.

[STEED]

Marriage scares the hell out of me.

Same here.

And here.

It's a big risk if the wife walks out on you, game over.:dead:

[XabbaRus]

I'll be 5 years married this year. I love it and its great, we have two kids but I guess you could say my family fits the old norms. I am the bread winner though my wife stays at home with the kids. She is educated and wants to work and have a decent job but once the kids are a bit bigger. I am in an entry level position, starting 10 years later than my collge buddies though, I was having fun after uni instead of straight into work.

Also divorce, can't afford it so am in no way going to jepodise my marriage....

[Fish]

I'll be 5 years married this year. I love it and its great, we have two kids but I guess you could say my family fits the old norms. I am the bread winner though my wife stays at home with the kids. She is educated and wants to work and have a decent job but once the kids are a bit bigger. I am in an entry level position, starting 10 years later than my collge buddies though, I was having fun after uni instead of straight into work.

Also divorce, can't afford it so am in no way going to jepodise my marriage....

40 years next september. :up:

[LoBlo]

Has anyone else noticed that it seems most divorces are initiated by the woman? Every one I talk with, over the last 5 years or so, both men and women, it's always the woman who started the divorce.

That's an interesting question. I've done some quick google digging.

http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm
http://www.womenofchina.cn/focus/marriage_and_family/5166.jsp

In the US and Korea, 66% of divorces are initiated by women. In brazil is 73% initiated by women.

Women...impossible to please them. I'm 26 and still single and not even close to getting married and with stats like these... looks like it'll stay that way for a long time :( :cry:

[CB..]

the day i find a woman i can have a conversation with human being to human being (if she is willing of course-:lol: ) i will marry her...sadly i only have ever met women who wish to be treated like women, and as they are unable to reliably define what that actualy means...the brain ache is just intolerable and i'm gone lol...for better or worse..

[Yahoshua]

Go to Japan. The Japanese women prefer foreigners.

Anyway, back on topic.

I have some things to add and one disagreement.

Disagree: It is no longer a theory Scandium, it is now practice. I've seen enough examples of this exact process to call it normal. And great post by the way.


To add:

With the decline of morals and the normalizing trend of "Swinging" (going from one partner to another whether in one night stands, dating, or marriage), this lifestyle has also influenced American society enough to nearly obliterate the "Old Institution" of marriage.

Along with the aftermath of WW2, women began to become anxious for the newfound responsibilities they'd had during the war while the men were gone. When the markets starting to boom and a growing demand for workers became inevitable, the women once again came in to fill the gaps. Tensions in the home and strained relationships occurred, but for the most part people stayed married to whom they considered lifelong partners.

However, in todays' world, as opposed to before, if either spouse became injured and was unable to work, the financial state of the home was in jeapordy. Whereas before, if the husband was unable to work, the wife worked to earn the bread while the husband did what he could at home until he either recovered or passed away.

And as Scandium already said before, children have more and more become a burden instead of an obligation to todays' society. To elaborate a little on this aspect, is to delve into the mind of the female spouse in this day and age who has grown up in a "Swinging" lifestyle: "Children and husbands are expendable. My husband will be with me until I'm an old fart, thje children will have grown up and gone, and I'll be nothing but an old maid with lost oppurtunities for greatness. Marriage is a burden, but I have a way out: Divorce. He can take care of the kids and I can climb the ladder to become what I want in my career: Successful."

So in looking at todays' society, I would expect that this sort of behavior will eventually become the norm. Instead of a mutual partnership in the old days, we now have a biter race to the finish. Whoever reaches the top rung of the ladder first, dumps the kids and continues on. I suppose that I could rationally blame this on Feminism gone out of control. Seeing that Feminism was a campaign for women to have equal rights as men. Suffrage was a win, womens' right to work was a win, and freedom of discrimination was a win. But in the home, the feminist movement has been disastrous.

So in looking at this, it brings up legal questions in an entire range of issues regarding the family. Particularly, the rights of the father. Modern law says that a developing fetus is the womans body, therefore it is her decision whether or not to terminate it. The father has no say in this, yet he is still forced to pay child support in the case of a divorce. The father is now being discriminated against simply because he is expected to support the family, while having no say in family affairs. Is this fair and equal? Hardly.

Seems like finding a partner who is more concerned about you as a person rather than your wallet will be a difficult find nowadays. Happy hunting.

[bradclark1]

27 years, and if she hasn't left me after all I've put her through she isn't going to.

[Yahoshua]

Sounds like you got a keeper.:yep:

[Iceman]

11 yrs... :up: Marriage is give and take and ya gotta be friends. It is the most honorable thing 2 people can do in my opinion.

[SUBMAN1]

Good question, I can't recall ever seeing any stats on this but assuming you're right (and my gut says you are but it could be wrong, or I could just be hungry) I'll toss out a few possible vaguely sociological theories as to why this might be so, though what underlines them all is what I'll call the contradiction between feminist ideals/demands and a reality where certain traditional norms are still demanded of the male; so here we go:

1. More and more families are dual income families and wage parity is approaching equality between the sexes, at the same time many traditionally high paying jobs that were held exclusively by males are now held by both sexes; thus, fewer women are dependent on the male "bread-winner" for support, but rather have their own incomes and careers. This phenomena is partially due to feminist gains, and partly due to economic realities where relative wages and benefits in most sectors have declined making it increasingly difficult for a single wage earner to support a family (except in the higher income brackets);

2. its been observed that marriage is mostly now between couples of similar socio-economic backgrounds; although people occassionally "marry up" or down, it is by far the exception and not the norm, and marriage is becoming as much an economic union as anything else;

3. the demands for higher levels of education and the difficulty today, versus say 40 years ago, of finding a good paying secure job in one's field is increasingly difficult, meaning it often requires several years of schooling followed by several years of entry level work before one finds secure, reasonable paying employment they are content with; thus, couples tend to delay marriage and delay children much longer than they did say 40 years ago;

4. summarizing the first three points, then, a young married couple will likely wish to delay having children for several years, will likely both be employed in entry level jobs for the first years of their marriage, and that taking place of the bond of children will be the economic bond;

5. the male is raised in a society where for him a double standard exists: on the one hand, he has placed upon him the obligation - by societal norms and spousal expectations - to be the bread-winner while the female spouse is under no such obligation, yet is expected to be free to pursue employment/career if she wishes (but it is not for her the obligation it is for the male, this is the double standard);

6. from all the above the theory: the male will tend to marry a female from within his own socio-economic background, but for him that's as far as it goes; the female, on the other hand, will do the same but for her, having the expectation that the male will be the bread winner, will expect his income to match her own and if his does not increase in relation to her own, then she becomes in effect the "bread-winner" and the male spouse becomes a "dead beat" or a "loser" and is devalued in her eyes (the reverse is not true), making the economic bond of their marriage a precarious one; and, further, having the autonomy of her own career and (likely) not being encumbered by children she may be inclined to divorce the male to seek a new partner that matches her improved economic circumstances where again, the reverse is not true (the male leaving for that reason).

This is my ad hoc theory, feel free to pick it apart or add to it. :p

Sounds about right for many I'm sure.

I don't fit the norm - Most years I make more, but my wife is on a commision thing and she can beat me and has. Its fine with me though! :up: More money, the better. It has turned into a bit of a competition with each of us growing our side by a percentage to beat the other. I figured however that a law degree can fix it once and for all, so I may actually quit the sys admin world and head into something that is a complete flip to what it is I am doing now. Of course with my background I will probably end up in tech patents, but still...

-S

PS. I'll win in the end. :p

[Bertgang]

Scandium's treaty seems exhaustive on the social and economical side.
Unbreakable marriages are still possible (of course, everyboby thinks to be in that number on wedding day), but as exceptions to the general trend.

I'll add some warning about the personal risk factors of the beloved woman.

1) known skills to leave her previous husband/boyfriend.
Fine when used to clear the ground for you, less if used again.

2) excellent memory.
Really useful most of times, unfortunately fit also to keep and update a complete blacklist against you (dirty nails included).

3) needing for a thinking time.
It's just a different manner to say bye-bye.

[scandium]

@Bertgang,

I'm with you completely on those three points you brought up, especially the first one. If she has "played the field" extensively, or played fast and loose in prior relationships, then that's not a good sign that she's ready to settle down anytime soon.

@Yahoshua,

Agreed on all points, and I would nail down the birth of the "swinging lifestyle" you mentioned to three phenomena that began at about the same time: the development of the birth control pill, the cultural revolution of the 60's, and the ascension of modern feminism. This brings me to your last paragraph and what I've always found to be an interesting paradox:

So in looking at this, it brings up legal questions in an entire range of issues regarding the family. Particularly, the rights of the father. Modern law says that a developing fetus is the womans body, therefore it is her decision whether or not to terminate it. The father has no say in this, yet he is still forced to pay child support in the case of a divorce. The father is now being discriminated against simply because he is expected to support the family, while having no say in family affairs. Is this fair and equal? Hardly.
This is the double standard again. And not only is the father forced, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the birth, to pay (sometimes crippling) child support, he usually also gets little consideration in custody decisions. This is where the "equality" sought by feminists again clashes with traditional (legislated) norms, where the male partner - in any dispute - is considered equal only in so far as his obligation to pay child support goes.

[Happy Times]

Has anyone else noticed that it seems most divorces are initiated by the woman? Every one I talk with, over the last 5 years or so, both men and women, it's always the woman who started the divorce. 1998-2004 http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/20040616sexcity.jpg

[XabbaRus]

Hmm if you had one bullet which of those would you shoot?

I know this is OT but they are responsible :)

I'd take out Sarah Jessica-Parker, way too annoying and whiney, perfect example of the women mentioned in this thread.

[Linton]

I always thought that S-J P 's best work was the flight of the Navigator.Of the others the ginger is a minjeeta,the blonde is a botox babe and that just leaves the brunette one who is barking!Perhaps if you stood them in a column and you had a magnum it would not be too hard!job done!
The soon to be divorced Mrs.McCartney:http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/06/heatherREX060606_228x520.jpg

[Yahoshua]

Yeah.....it's a sad thing to watch our society decay this way and have little else other than grass-roots influence on minimizing the impact, if not reversing it.

We may even end up having the gov't ad campaigns like they do in Japan and Australia to "Have a kid for the country."

A book I would reccommend reading (and also in addition to my above post and Scandiums' posts) is called "Pornified: The Playboy Culture of America." It's a pretty grim analysis when you realize how much of an impact this whole thing has on our society. Perhaps these are the last days of our society as we know it........kinda like the Romans did.

[Sailor Steve]

I wouldn't know anything about 'modern' divorce, as mine took place twenty-one years ago, but yes, right when I was at the height of my depression, she decided that my true desire was to be free of her and so she granted me the divorce that I really 'wanted'.

Would have been married thirty-two years now.