1984

[STEED]

How near has this story come true, in the world we live in?

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6184/1984fictiousworldmap2fd3.png

[XabbaRus]

I'm off to live in the disputed territories.

[Torplexed]

You guys need to get outta Airstrip One...um...Britain soon. :lol:

Eurasia is our ally....Eurasia has always been our ally...or is it the other way around?

[Takeda Shingen]

How near has this story come true, in the world we live in?

Not very. As modern people of the world, we tend to have rather short memories, and like to pretend that the world has never been polarized before. History, however, repeatedly shows us that polatization combined with new technology has occured with alarming frequency throughout the history of mankind. There will be a tremendous state of hostility, has it has before, and things will then calm down again, also as before.

Greed and ambition is man's way. However, he lacks a stomach for enough carnage to make conflict over too extended a period of time. This, which one would think to be a benefit to man, is rather a hinderance. It prevents him from moving beyond his conflict, and ironically makes him more likely to engage in such action frequently in the future.

In short, I do not see us anywhere near giant, all-sentient governments and video monitoring in the home. Such has been cried repeatedly for the last thirty years, and nothing has yet happened. One would think it time for the cries to die down, but, alas, they present themselves anew.

[STEED]

I think elements of this story have come true, we do seem to be heading towards something which looks bleak but it dose depend on what's going on in the world. Are we heading towards fragmentation instead of a super power as in country but a super continental alliance just like in 1984? As things stand at the moment most likely not but what of the next 50 years?

[Takeda Shingen]

On the contrary, modern man, globally speaking, has a greater frequency and volume of liberties than he has ever had at any time in history. If anything, society seems to be moving rapidly away from the Orwellian model.

Fragmentation is all-present. The countries of Central and South America have either distanced themselves, or expressedly stated that they want nothing to do with the United States of America. The Israel-Lebanon incident has put distance between the US and it's closet ally, Great Britian. The member states of the European Union cannot even agree on voting procedures, let alone meaningful international action. The United Nations has lost even the sembelence of status: It is almost universally regarded as a dimplomatic joke. Here again, Orwell seems left to dust.

Nay, Orwellians have once again been thwarted. It seems that the science-fiction fans will have to join the fantasy-loving followers of Tolkien on the sidelines of man's philosophy, and once again leave the debate of man's directions to the Danteans, Shakespereians and Wagnerians.

[SUBMAN1]

How near has this story come true, in the world we live in?

Not very. As modern people of the world, we tend to have rather short memories, and like to pretend that the world has never been polarized before. History, however, repeatedly shows us that polatization combined with new technology has occured with alarming frequency throughout the history of mankind. There will be a tremendous state of hostility, has it has before, and things will then calm down again, also as before.

Greed and ambition is man's way. However, he lacks a stomach for enough carnage to make conflict over too extended a period of time. This, which one would think to be a benefit to man, is rather a hinderance. It prevents him from moving beyond his conflict, and ironically makes him more likely to engage in such action frequently in the future.

In short, I do not see us anywhere near giant, all-sentient governments and video monitoring in the home. Such has been cried repeatedly for the last thirty years, and nothing has yet happened. One would think it time for the cries to die down, but, alas, they present themselves anew.

It is happening. You are being watched on that very post you just made. You are now being monitored in your livingrooms as to the type of shows you watch (Through digital cable). Some people are even using an experimental device to see if cable ops can see emotion across the wire on certain commercials. Tivo is now selling what ads you skip over so you can get targeted ads. Don't ever think that when they say that it is annonymous that they can't trace it back to the source. Your credit cards and ATM tell people what you buy. I've even heard of a DUI conviction being upheld simply because Safeway records showed that the guy buys a lot of beer. Your ISP's now are being told they should hold onto your records of where you go on the net. Everyone wants to install spyware for the same purpose (without your consent) on your PC to monitor your habits. Cookies track you where you go. Your cell phones now can be targetted to watch where you travel and your daily habits. Even your DNA is being sought by insurance industries. Who owns your DNA? I've figured out that I don't own mine it would seem. Insurance companies sell your information. Telemarketers record your data and sell it to who knows where. Your cars are being equiped with monitoring devices that can be used against you in a court of law, and they tell throttle position, brake position, if you were speeding, and rental companies are now even using GPS to monitor where you go, and even give you a ticket if you exceed the speed limit. All your are travels are forever documented. All your phone calls are kept forever as far as I know. Even your work is watching your health record, and they are starting to take a valid interest into what you do when you are not at work...

I can go on forever with this list, but to think that 1984 is not happening....

To see what is under attack in the US on any given day as far as datamining:
http://www.eff.org/

Or their partners in crime:
http://www.epic.org/

Any day on the register is another day of privacy and monitoring under attack and people are trying to control your life:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/

Another good site similar to the Reg above:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx

But if you just want the world to run itself and don't care what people think of what underwear you buy, you can just go here: http://mrcam.free.fr/trance4ever/index.php?lang=fr&fonction=mixs - I suggest A New Planet by Stef which will make you forget about all the worlds problems.

-S

PS. If you can support either EFF or EPIC, please do.

PPS. The world knows more about you than you do about yourself - mark my words.

[Takeda Shingen]

PPS. The world knows more about you than you do about yourself - mark my words.

I will. I am not an alarmist. I do not buy into popular society's culture of fear. I will not be held hostage to a news agency that will have me tune in at 11 so they, and only they, can tell me how I will die in my bed this night. I will not pulled into the hysteria of the brave new world. If you are of the belief that any of monitoring of the people is new, then you are mistaken. This has happened repeatedly, and with the same frequency, through the ages. Only the method changes. We have not crossed a threshold, rather we have only changed playing fields.

Now, do mark my words: In fifteen years, we will still be discussing these same problems. Perhaps they will have a different face, a different context, but nothing will have changed. Social direction is a delusion of the mind. Society is directionless.

[Oberon]

1984?!

A good year :rock:

[SUBMAN1]

PPS. The world knows more about you than you do about yourself - mark my words.

I will. I am not an alarmist. I do not buy into popular society's culture of fear. I will not be held hostage to a news agency that will have me tune in at 11 so they, and only they, can tell me how I will die in my bed this night. I will not pulled into the hysteria of the brave new world. If you are of the belief that any of monitoring of the people is new, then you are mistaken. This has happened repeatedly, and with the same frequency, through the ages. Only the method changes. We have not crossed a threshold, rather we have only changed playing fields.

Now, do mark my words: In fifteen years, we will still be discussing these same problems. Perhaps they will have a different face, a different context, but nothing will have changed. Social direction is a delusion of the mind. Society is directionless.

Yeah, we will be talking about how much worse it is - I agree. We are only on the tip of the iceberg right now. Unlike previous history, you forgot technology. This is the first time in history that everything is logged, and it 'never' gets deleted anymore. It is there till you die. Only in the 2000's has this become possible.

There are some big things coming around the corner, and they are ugly.

-S

[TteFAboB]

For 1984 to come true, totalitarism must triumph, and the only thing necessary for evil to triumph...(complete the phrase searching for Edward Burke on google).

[Skybird]

How near has this story come true, in the world we live in?



Not very. The faction-building of today is not to be seen on that map.

[Skybird]

For 1984 to come true, totalitarism must triumph,

that on the other hand is very near. Politically tryrannies not overcome but revitalized in Easertn European countries and several USSR'S southern republics, inclduing Putin himself, democracy in the West being hollowed out, corporations taking over the policy-building on international stage, and Islam's doctrine in charging offensive.

[bradclark1]

corporations taking over the policy-building on international stage
You have more to fear from this then big brother. But I'd add national policy to it also.




Don't mind the stars. I was experimenting.

[Yahoshua]

Granted that we are far from a totalitarian regime, what I have read in recent posts in England alarms me, and very much does play to the tune of 1984.

While I may not be a fan of politicians, it is exactly those politicians who vote "for the good of the people." And yet it is exactly those politicians wo decieve the voters into putting them into office. And mistakes only need to happen once to bring down the house of cards.

Btw, the end of that quote is part of my sig.

[scandium]

It is happening. You are being watched on that very post you just made. You are now being monitored in your livingrooms as to the type of shows you watch (Through digital cable). Some people are even using an experimental device to see if cable ops can see emotion across the wire on certain commercials. Tivo is now selling what ads you skip over so you can get targeted ads. Don't ever think that when they say that it is annonymous that they can't trace it back to the source. Your credit cards and ATM tell people what you buy. I've even heard of a DUI conviction being upheld simply because Safeway records showed that the guy buys a lot of beer. Your ISP's now are being told they should hold onto your records of where you go on the net. Everyone wants to install spyware for the same purpose (without your consent) on your PC to monitor your habits. Cookies track you where you go. Your cell phones now can be targetted to watch where you travel and your daily habits. Even your DNA is being sought by insurance industries. Who owns your DNA? I've figured out that I don't own mine it would seem. Insurance companies sell your information. Telemarketers record your data and sell it to who knows where. Your cars are being equiped with monitoring devices that can be used against you in a court of law, and they tell throttle position, brake position, if you were speeding, and rental companies are now even using GPS to monitor where you go, and even give you a ticket if you exceed the speed limit. All your are travels are forever documented. All your phone calls are kept forever as far as I know. Even your work is watching your health record, and they are starting to take a valid interest into what you do when you are not at work...

I can go on forever with this list, but to think that 1984 is not happening....

To see what is under attack in the US on any given day as far as datamining:
http://www.eff.org/

Or their partners in crime:
http://www.epic.org/

Any day on the register is another day of privacy and monitoring under attack and people are trying to control your life:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/

Another good site similar to the Reg above:
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx

But if you just want the world to run itself and don't care what people think of what underwear you buy, you can just go here: http://mrcam.free.fr/trance4ever/index.php?lang=fr&fonction=mixs - I suggest A New Planet by Stef which will make you forget about all the worlds problems.

-S

PS. If you can support either EFF or EPIC, please do.

PPS. The world knows more about you than you do about yourself - mark my words.
Outstanding post Subman, with some excellent links as well, and surprise I actually agree with you 100% for once. :) If I can add, or expand on the list a bit, then a few more points:

ISPs in the US have been "requested" by the government to keep all their traffic logs for 2 years. As these ISPs make up much of the backbone of the Internet then this amounts to a very big database of your surfing habits including such things as what sites you connected to, when, what email you sent and to who, the email's header (if not the contents as well), what files you downloaded and when and from where, and on and on.

Viruses/trojans and worms are also becoming far, far more sophisticated and prevalent now than they were before as well; the worst of the lot can and will open an ftp port, or an smtp port (to send this data as an email with attachment) without your knowledge (and attempting to bypass any firewalls you have as well) and use it to upload the contents of your stored windows & browsers password files, history and saved forms (those things your browser uses to remember your bank account# & pw if you use online banking as well as any other logins and passwords you have it "remember"); they can also log your keystrokes and program usage for malicious means and even allow your PC to be remotely connected and controlled.

Those are just a couple trends on the internet front whereby privacy and security are becoming increasingly illusory, but it is the internet - the most globalized and sophisticated, and revolutionary, information and communication tool there is that has been under constant assault from government, corporations (many of them very shady) and criminals, that could - potentially - help bring about a kind of 1984 that even Orwell couldn't imagine.

That said I'm not about to "unplug" but self-protection is a must these days (more than ever before) and thankfully there is good grassroots activism, like the EFF, to fight back.

[Edit] One more link to add to Subman's list, though these guys don't deal exclusively in privacy/security matters they do pay a lot of attention to it: www.slashdot.org

[Yahoshua]

http://users.chartertn.net/tonytemplin/FBI_eyes/ :doh: eh?

[P_Funk]

Long live Oceania! We are the greatest power! Our forces are superior to those of our enemy Eurasia! Last week they met valliently in the disputed territories and we threw down the enemy commander! Our brave ally Eastasia stands with us stronger than has ever been seen! Soon our fatal enemy shall be defeated surely and finally! Even now our gallant troops are amassing at the borders and will soon sweep in to the capital of Eastasia. Our ally Eurasia waits nearby to dustract our enemy and divide his forces before we divide his body! Long live Oceania!

[SUBMAN1]

Well, it looks like Oceana is the military power there, and it touches every continent practically, so yeah, Oceana is going to kick some butt. :)

-S

[LoBlo]

How near has this story come true, in the world we live in?

Geographically not very. We've still quite a bit more balkanized than that.

But the governmental psychological tatics used in the book have been known to exist in a lot of the communist regimes and dictatorships of existing countries.

[STEED]

Granted that we are far from a totalitarian regime, what I have read in recent posts in England alarms me, and very much does play to the tune of 1984.



http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/3476/1984tw8.jpg
TONY BLAIR
IS
Big Brother

[SUBMAN1]

Granted that we are far from a totalitarian regime, what I have read in recent posts in England alarms me, and very much does play to the tune of 1984.


http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/3476/1984tw8.jpg
TONY BLAIR
IS
Big Brother

Man! You are a little hard on your PM. To me he looks like he is trying to do a good job while bucking up against parliament. He does look like he has some unpopular ideas at times though.

-S

[STEED]

[quote=SUBMAN1
Man! You are a little hard on your PM. To me he looks like he is trying to do a good job while bucking up against parliament. He does look like he has some unpopular ideas at times though.
-S[/quote]

Well after nine years of Tony Blair I can safely say he is the worst prime minister this country has had to date. He spends more time jetting around the world looking good while back home the U.K. is in a mess. :nope:

Did you see this stupid thing......? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=96363

[SUBMAN1]

[quote=SUBMAN1
Man! You are a little hard on your PM. To me he looks like he is trying to do a good job while bucking up against parliament. He does look like he has some unpopular ideas at times though.
-S

Well after nine years of Tony Blair I can safely say he is the worst prime minister this country has had to date. He spends more time jetting around the world looking good while back home the U.K. is in a mess. :nope:

Did you see this stupid thing......? http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=96363[/quote]

Ouch. Sounds like he needs to jet home and fix some issues!

-S

[waste gate]

Question. Does parliment have any word in what goes on in Britain? The reason I ask is that in this country (U.S.) many folks forget which branch of the Gov't is responsible for what issue.

I admit to knowing little about how your Gov't works, excuse my ignorance.

thanks in advance

[SUBMAN1]

Question. Does parliment have any word in what goes on in Britain? The reason I ask is that in this country (U.S.) many folks forget which branch of the Gov't is responsible for what issue.

I admit to knowing little about how your Gov't works, excuse my ignorance.

thanks in advance

The main big difference I know in the UK is that parliment always votes along party lines without exception. To be an exception is to get removed from office. This is probably how these laws get passed that would never pass here, at least not the way things are now.

-S

[waste gate]

[quote=waste gate]This is probably how these laws get passed that would never pass here, at least not the way things are now.-S

The Supreme Court. Those laws could easily stand up to what the court believes is its constitutional mandate. At least one justice believes Europe is where to look for guidance.

Beware the justices who believe the Constitution of the United States is a living document.

If it was a living document, why did the founders write it down?

[STEED]

Question. Does Parliament have any word in what goes on in Britain?

Not at the moment they are all on Holiday, the Deputy Prime Minister is running the country, who's he you ask? John (Two Jags) Prescott.

Not Prescott:o :o :o :o

:damn: It we are in the .............................

[waste gate]

Thank you for the reply STEED. Ordinarily how does it work? My congress is about to go on break also. I know I'll go to the wiki.

Thanx
waste gate

[P_Funk]

Question. Does parliment have any word in what goes on in Britain? The reason I ask is that in this country (U.S.) many folks forget which branch of the Gov't is responsible for what issue.

I admit to knowing little about how your Gov't works, excuse my ignorance.

thanks in advance
The main big difference I know in the UK is that parliment always votes along party lines without exception. To be an exception is to get removed from office. This is probably how these laws get passed that would never pass here, at least not the way things are now.

-S
That's a significant oversimplification. That does not at all impart to the unknowing the intricacies of parliamentary government.

It is true that parliaments are organized along party lines. Also it is true that most of the time parties vote unanimously. However it not without exception. There are many instances where a party leader will callfor a free vote, a vote where MPs are told to vote based on their personal moral or political views. This is often used for contentious issues and ones which are not at all easily resolved. In Canada the ruling party (the former ruling party) had a free vote concerning same sex marriage. It still passed but the new conservatives want to revisit it again. They want another free vote even though last time their party didn't allow its MPs to vote freely.

Canada's parliament is based directly off of British parliament so it is traditionally the same even though the specific culture has obviously grown differently in the time since our independance.

In how subman descibes things he obviously has an opinion of parliament which is not at all favourable. I think many people in other countries would point to the American Congress and say that it has some major issues itself which seem to be significant.

There is more to parliament than just party lines. Also another major difference is that parliament is designed with multiple parties in mind. America has only 2 so its major governing body obviously functions differently than one which must contend with many smaller parties. Also our leader is not separate from the main legislature. The party leader is our Prime Minister and assumes the role of the American President along with much more.

[Sailor Steve]

Waaaaaaay back in 1962 one of the most popular types of comedy was President Kennedy impersonation. From Vaughan Meader's First Family on down there were a lot of them.

I only mention this here because it reminds me of a JFK impersonator I heard who said the following:

"I will be re-elected in 1964. My brother Bobby will be elected in 1968, and again in 1972. My brother Teddy will be elected in 1976 and again in 1980. Then it will be 1984 and it won't matter anymore!"

[CB..]

i think that the main concepts of 1984 are very much alive and well..and fully integrated into the fabric of our culture..we have a war that can never end..we have news-speak - political correctness does a fair job on that area..and most importantly very few voices are raised in objection..thus proving that we do know how many fingers we are see-ing..or at least we have been told how many fingers we are see-ing..etc etc..

..but it was just a book..and kids to-day are far too wise to learn anything from a book..primarily because they have TOLD they are too wise to learn anything from a book..(post ironic culture..?) and they know how many fingers are being raised because they are the ones who are raising the finger..or is that just part of the underlying belief system..lifestyle..he he says it all...no life any more only lifestyles..as lou reed says "stick a fork in them and turn 'em over theyre done.."

easy meat..

[scandium]

It is true that parliaments are organized along party lines. Also it is true that most of the time parties vote unanimously. However it not without exception. There are many instances where a party leader will callfor a free vote, a vote where MPs are told to vote based on their personal moral or political views. This is often used for contentious issues and ones which are not at all easily resolved.

Party discipline applies mainly to matters of confidence, where a nay majority would equal a vote of no confidence and a dissolution of parliament and new elections. Confidence matters aside, its mainly cabinet ministers ("MPs with portfolio") who are expected to either vote the party line or resign their cabinet position; backbenchers, however, who have no portfolio have a lot more latitude in how they vote.

[scandium]

Kind of an amusing spin on Google News and an Orwellian correct way to get the latest headlines:

http://protempore.net/goodspeak/goodspeak.py