Graf Zeppelin wreck found!

[Phylacista]

I stumbled over this article http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/0,1518,428978,00.html saying that sonar pictures in the Ostsee show a wreck that most probalby resembles the Graf Zeppelin. Article is in german.

[Nippelspanner]

Whoa! :huh:

But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger"
(Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier)

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:

[Drebbel]

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

[Nippelspanner]

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y... :down:

[bigboywooly]

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:

It is the truth isn't it ? We should not put our heads in the sand, we ARE fighting for the Nazis in SHIII.

No its not. Its just respectless against all the german sailors/soldiers who died... german soldier=nazi... oooof course...

we dont need to discuss the regime, no way... but to call everything whats german (from this time of course) nazi makes me really pi$$y... :down:

Agreed :up:
The Kreigsmarine were the least political branch of the German armed forces too
Very similair to the Royal Navy - they respect their traditions and heritage more than the oaf at the head of the country - Old skool :rock:

[Drebbel]

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

[KL Seestern]

Yes, I agree there's nothing wrong with the phrase 'Nazi aircraft carrier': as a designation of the ship itself, it's technically quite correct. It was built (or mostly built) at the behest of the Nazi government in order to form part of the Nazi military machine. As Drebbel says, the phrase doesn't imply anything about the political views of the crew members.

[Onkel Neal]

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal

[Nippelspanner]

Maybe germans are just very sensitive to the word NAZI... yup, thats it... in the german forums is the same discussion because of a familiar thread... the most people over there agree and cant read this "NAZI Ship, NAZI Submarine, NAZI, Helmet, NAZI Shellcase, NAZI anything" - anymore...

Of course it was a "Nazi-Ship" because it was build for the regime... but it could be written a bit more "respectful" like "Kriegsmarine Ship found" etc...

what ever...

@Neal
it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. Ok, my english is poor and maybe ive got it wrong, if so - sorry.

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course... :roll:
but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

[Onkel Neal]

but: its absolutely not nessecary to get ironic... i could get ironic too and talking about how honorable it was to drop little boy and kill ah sorry "create" a bit collateral damage - to safe lifes of course... :roll:
but i dont, because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides... at least i hope everyone does...

;) yes, but we're not talking about all sides, just Nazis.

[Jager]

FYI A regular soldier in the Wehrmacht could NOT be apart of the Nazi party, it was not allowed. You however have your exceptions with Goering, and the whole bunch but to call Kriegsmarine ships "Nazi ships" is just fubar for me. It is the same as saying that all German's who fought in WW2 for their country and loved ones are nazis which is certainly not true. It just enrages me to see that old sterotype even today and I think about my grandfather and uncle who fought in WW2 for the Germans and barely got out alive (my uncle being captured by the Russians and spending 7 years in a POW camp, he was only 18 years old too).

[STEED]

They do not call all sailors Nazis. the call the vessel a Nazi carrier, nothing wrong with that IMHO.

I think too many people are sticking their head in the sand. The uboat force and general kriegsmarine was full of intelligent, well educated, high ranking officers and non-officers. Maybe the average sailor did not have much of a choice. But the high ranking officers made a consious choice to join/fight for the Nazis or not. Most of them unfortunately made the wrong choice and after the war hide behind the phrase "I just was doing my job"

And even those simple brave sailors mght simply be doing there job, but still they where doing the their thing for the wrong side, they where fighting the Nazi war. And if you fight (do the dirty work) for a certain group to make them more powerfull then you belong to that group and are a representative of that group.

Just my 2cts

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I don't know why calling a German vessel in WWII a "Nazi" vessel should make anyone angry, it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells. It's just common usage of the term.

just my opinion,
Neal



I wish people would grow up and move on the war ended 60 odd years ago. I agree with Neal.

[RAM]

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.


Just my .02$$.

[Safe-Keeper]

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...Exactly. American ships aren't "Republican/Democratic ships", German ships never were "Nazi ships".

[Drebbel]

because everyone here should know that respect has to be paid for both/all sides

I acknoledge their sorrow and pain. But should we really respect what they did ? Why ?

[johan_d]

The victor tells what is bad.. i guess we were all speaking different if Hitler won the war..

Its all in the eyes of the beholder. Even those who believed in Hitler cant be wrong, history had a bunch of loved dictators.. Ceasar, Napoleon, and so on. People believed in them, so they cant be 'wrong'.

Like now, the US soldiers in Iraq fight for their believes, time will tell if they were correct.

[stabiz]

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.


That was a bit disapointing coming from an admin.

[RedHammer]

But this is just weird, u all knew what happened to those germans who even thought about not fighting for the nazis, off to military jail and shot, do u know how many men and women were killed at a certain military prison in germany, in a single year? 134000! in ww1, of a total of 7000 desertors from the german forces, only 6-7 got away! If they didnt fight, they would die! Owh and by the way, my grandfather fought at the russian front for the nazis, but when looking at the Cold War and all that, and looking at the after effects, forexample, that might not be a dumb idea? If I meant that seriously I would be banned and kicked from this forum! But for all I know, if the germans hadnt tryed to invade the russians, the Russians would have been fresh enough to invade my country as well(just as the germans invaded my country because they were on their own height), just look at what happened to the Finnish cuz they didn`t wanna give up a few forrests and lakes.. and what did Russia want with those? Russia represent 1/4th of Europe, why would they want a few forrests and lakes?.. Too bad it had to cost 275000 lives to not even find out..
As a great writer once put it; in one of his books: Were doin Stalin a big fat favour actually.. Evrybody kicks our asses cuz of Hitler`s camps, while evrybody thinks Stalin doesnt have a camp.."

Evrybody knows that their own country punish those who dont meet up at military, Give the Germans a good reason to die trying not to serve their country no matter what, just as israelic men and women do right now..(A conflict of which reminds me suspiciously much about the Finnish-Russian Winter War..).

All im asking is keep in mind the average German`s situation, just as you would keep in mind an Average Joe`s or Tommy`s situation, and consequences, if he/her didn`t pick up the rifle and uniform!

Sorry if I offended any people in this post, but it was the only way of putting it!


Salute

RedHammer

[Onkel Neal]

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.



You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it. I have nothing against German war vets, but I also don't believe in whitewashing the past. If someone says something about a "Nazi U-boat" or a "Nazi soldier", I understand what he means.

No offense. I can understand why German sons and grandsons of German military may feel differently. I'm not trying to change your opinion :)

[VonHelsching]

I agree. Even the least political and most reluctant German sailor was fighting FOR the Nazi regime.

I guess that makes each and every US soldier serving overseas today an ultra-republican believer isn't it?.

WW2 may have ended 60 years ago, but nazism is pretty much alive today. And I can't blame people for not wanting their vets to be linked with a regime who killed millions of innocents, just because people don't want to stop making generalizations.

See, there were nazis in the german armed forces during WW2. There were those who liked Hitler, there were those who didn't. Not all of them were nazis, not all of them weren't.

Of course in certain parts of the german armed forces of the time almost everyone was a nazi. Waffen-SS, for instance. But the average sailor, soldier or pilot simply wasn't more a nazi than a current US soldier can be republican.

Soldiers fight for their life, for their families' safety, for their friend's lifes and for their country. In that order. There are cases where ideology is a main instance, but on average, that goes way way way behind the avobe-mentioned preferences.

In any case there's no such thing as a Nazi ship. There were ships built by nazis, a totally different thing. Being as this is a submarine-fan forum you must know that many U-boat kaleuns were not exactly nazis, yet they fought the war for their country nonetheless...

aboard nazi-built u-boats...not nazi u-boats.


Just my .02$$.


Well put RAM. I agree totally.

[harzfeld]

But this is just weird, u all knew what happened to those germans who even thought about not fighting for the nazis, off to military jail and shot, do u know how many men and women were killed at a certain military prison in germany, in a single year? 134000! in ww1, of a total of 7000 desertors from the german forces, only 6-7 got away! If they didnt fight, they would die! Owh and by the way, my grandfather fought at the russian front for the nazis, but when looking at the Cold War and all that, and looking at the after effects, forexample, that might not be a dumb idea? If I meant that seriously I would be banned and kicked from this forum! But for all I know, if the germans hadnt tryed to invade the russians, the Russians would have been fresh enough to invade my country as well(just as the germans invaded my country because they were on their own height), just look at what happened to the Finnish cuz they didn`t wanna give up a few forrests and lakes.. and what did Russia want with those? Russia represent 1/4th of Europe, why would they want a few forrests and lakes?.. Too bad it had to cost 275000 lives to not even find out..
As a great writer once put it; in one of his books: Were doin Stalin a big fat favour actually.. Evrybody kicks our asses cuz of Hitler`s camps, while evrybody thinks Stalin doesnt have a camp.."

Evrybody knows that their own country punish those who dont meet up at military, Give the Germans a good reason to die trying not to serve their country no matter what, just as israelic men and women do right now..(A conflict of which reminds me suspiciously much about the Finnish-Russian Winter War..).

All im asking is keep in mind the average German`s situation, just as you would keep in mind an Average Joe`s or Tommy`s situation, and consequences, if he/her didn`t pick up the rifle and uniform!

Sorry if I offended any people in this post, but it was the only way of putting it!


Salute

RedHammer

I wonder if Russia and Germany could had become ally after both of them invaded Poland? I was puzzled since Stalin was as bad as Hilter, or Hilter was as bad as Stalin either way.. What about if Russia didn't get invaded by Nazi, would Russia really still invade Germany anyway and why? I thought it would be for Russia's benefits by being ally with Axis when Russia was already against the Western states then during cold war?

[Engel der Vernichtung]

Russia and Germany had a long-standing feud going; it was really not a question of if Germany invaded, but rather, when. Kind of like right after the American independence war; it was not a question of if the Americans abnd the British would fight again, but rather when (actually came about in the war of 1812).

[RAM]

You're right, having a Republican President does not make a US soldier "an ultra-republican believer", but it still makes him a US soldier. The German soldier and sailor may not have been a Nazi, he may have even been doing this against his will, but he was sure doing a good job of it.


Neal I really don't follow you here, but it might be the language barrier.

Let me see, you think (as I do) that US soldiers being deployed overseas today doesn't mean that they are republicans, and that they are US soldiers, not republican soldiers. So far ,so good.

But, while that holds true for US soldiers it doesn't apply to WW2 german soldiers?. A German soldier was a NAZI soldier, not a German soldier?.


Have to disagree with you here. Some german soldiers deployed during WW2 were Nazis, but the average soldier was a GERMAN soldier, not a Nazi one.



Another thing I'd like to mention:

it's not generally meant as a slight to those honorable Kriegsmarine men who were drowning American, Canadian, and British sailors in the cold Atlantic swells.


I guess that US Navy men who were drowning japanese sailors in the pacific and SRA zone were better because they let them drown in "hot" waters?...(we won't mention sharks here).

U-boat sailors were not more dis-honourable for sinking merchant ships in the atlantic than what US sailors doing the same in the Far East could be, neal. They all played the same game. It's called "war" and it's hell, and you can hardly blame those who played a part on it...but yet if you do, place that blame on ALL those who did similar things, not only on a minority, and just because they lost the war.

Please, make up your mind, either all submarine sailors of WW2 which conducted anti-merchant operations were dis-honourable, or they all were honourable. But you can't have the "Kriegsmarine ones weren't, but US ones were" when both navy's submarine forces conducted pretty similar submarine offensives on other merchant navies during the war.

In short, no two-standards ,please, Neal...

[RAM]

One little thing I'd like to add. I'm not german and have no german relatives or ascendancy. I'm Spanish.

It's just that seen from the "outside", I think is unfair to qualify a collective of soldiers because of the ideology of the leadership of the nation they belonged to.

I also think it's unfair to place such a blame on a collective were so many innocent people were placed, people who just fought for their country and lifes not for hitler.

There is a certain deal of blame to put on the germans and wehrmacht for what happened during WW2 and in the years prior to it, I agree with that. But not enough to go as far as calling every german soldier a "nazi" soldier.

That's going too far, at least from my point of view (that I like to think it's as objective, unbiased and neutral as you can get).

[Dowly]

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

If a country would be run by a republican, would all the ships be 'republic destroyer', 'republic carrier' etc.? :88)

[Nippelspanner]

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

If a country would be run by a republican, would all the ships be 'republic destroyer', 'republic carrier' etc.? :88)

Good Point Dowly! :up:

[U-104]

Can we please get back to the Graf Zeppelin wreck being found?

[STEED]

Can we please get back to the Graf Zeppelin wreck being found?

Here, here.:yep: :ping:

[slow_n_ez]

I saw this news the other day at my isp's home page.... its in english for those who don't want to try to read the German site :

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?id=12974279&ps=1012&cat=&cps=0&lang=en

It seems the Russians used it for target practice after the war ......:cool: .. clicking on thepic gives a better view of it

[Drebbel]

IMO, the ship was GERMAN. The country was GERMANY. The people that lived in the country were GERMAN. The political faction that ruled the country was NAZI party.

But they where fighting for the NAZI cause, just as nowadays US soldier is fighting for Democracy and Kapitalism, and therefore in my views a NAZI soldier. IMHO too often the word NAZI is being used to point at others in order to seperate oneselves from what "the others" did. In my opinion we are always responsible for what we do in live and who we support, even a soldier. That does not mean we all have the power to change it but we are always responsible, and therefore accountable, for our actions. Pointing at others and saying "they are NAZIs and I was not" does not mean much if you then turn around, pick up a rifle and continue fighting for the NAZI cause.

Only by always holding people accountable for what they do or who they support we have a chance of preventing disasters as WWII.

[Sailor Steve]

Drebbel, I respectfully have to disagree. I have over the years been involved in several "Was the US Civil War about slavery or not?" arguments. I of course don't want to go into that here, but one of the main "not" arguments was always "Ninety-nine percent of the Union soldiers signed up for reasons other than to 'free the slaves', and likewise virtually no Southern boys signed up for the purpose of keeping the slaves where they were". The truth is, almost nobody signs up to protect a cause. I went to Viet Nam, but later came to agree with those who thought that war was wrong. Today, a lot of people think that US involvement in Iraq is wrong, many all the way to thinking President Bush is downright evil. Are soldiers who volunteer for service there supporting evil? I don't think so.

My bottom line is this: some Germans signed up with the light of Hitler's cause in there eyes, some signed up because they were afraid not to, but most signed up because their country was at war. Maybe they were misled, maybe they were blinded by propaganda, maybe we can argue about officers (especially ranking ones), but by and large the average German boy joined up because he felt Germany needed him.

[Drebbel]

but by and large the average German boy joined up because he felt Germany needed him.

But he was wrong, maybe ignorant, and probably already made many wrong choices in the decade before WWII started.

But ignorance can never be an excuse !

[SeaWolf IV]

Wow, way to pull the thread off topic.

[Nippelspanner]

but by and large the average German boy joined up because he felt Germany needed him.

But he was wrong, maybe ignorant, and probably already made many wrong choices in the decade before WWII started.

But ignorance can never be an excuse !

Youre thinking about this too easy... but it wasnt so easy like this. there was no chance to say "hey, i think hitler is bad, i wont fight for him" as a 20 years old boy... or younger, or older... im sure you know that, so why talking about ignorance? they didnt had a chance...

if you say no you die or get into the worst "prison" you can imagine... would you say no?

[Drebbel]

if you say no you die or get into the worst "prison" you can imagine... would you say no?

I hope I would say NO in the late 1920s. If I would not say no I would have silently agreed, and therefore partially responsible/accountable, for the NAZI politics that eventually led to WWII.

My family has been killed for saying NO. But of course that does not mean I will have the same courage, one only knows that when one is actually in that situation.

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.

[slow_n_ez]

..... I have over the years been involved in several "Was the US Civil War about slavery or not?" arguments.....

Actually no ..... and my next comment will kinda sum up the argument here ....

United we stand , Divided we fall ...........

Pretty much a basis that all counties follow ....... imo :-?

[torpcatcher]

After WWI Germany were destroyed economically and financially. Hitler used the great depression to his advantage, and gained control over the country. Since people were out of work and starving Hitler’s solutions to the problems that Germany faced at that time were rather accepted enthusiastically by the people. Mass weapon production and industrialization for military purposes pulled the country out of the hole.

And when it comes to people serving in the military force…. Well they all were fanatics at some point or the other. After the war they used the excuse “I did not have the choice” over admitting that they were sharing Hitler’s views.

I strongly suggest Subsim fans to read “Steel Boats, Iron Hearts” this book tell a story of a sailor who served on U – 505. In one of the chapters he admits that he joined navy because of the ideology that he strongly believed in. He said that it would be a lie for him not to admit that.

[Nippelspanner]

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.

But you are talking about ignorance? :nope:
I wont try to change your mind, thats not my problem... my last word to this OT discussion...

[U-104]

Wow, way to pull the thread off topic.yep:nope:

[Sailor Steve]

..... I have over the years been involved in several "Was the US Civil War about slavery or not?" arguments.....

Actually no ..... and my next comment will kinda sum up the argument here ....

United we stand , Divided we fall ...........

Pretty much a basis that all counties follow ....... imo :-?
A different argument for a different thread, which was why I only used it as a side-note.

And I find your summation simplistic at the very best.

[Dowly]

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.
So, everyone living in America is to be blamed, when one US soldier kills a civilian in Iraq?

End of OT from me.

[Drebbel]

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.
So, everyone living in America is to be blamed, when one US soldier kills a civilian in Iraq?

Yes, unless you protested against the war or the government. If you kept your mouth shut about the war and just let it happen then it is your reponsibility too. And if you where in favor of the war it is clear you are responsible.

Too often in history disasters happen because people think they are no responsible/accountable for what their government/country does. After it happens they simply point to the fellow citizans.

[Cdre Gibs]

I truely cant believe the crap going on here.

(Most of the below referes to the era of WWII)
In war time a country usualy conscripts - your right to object has just been taken away. If you do your Shot or at best thrown in prison. Let me tell you about Military prisons, you have NO RIGHTS.
So there you are now, on the battle field, the guy at the other end of the 2way rifle range is trying to kill you, you however object to being in the war. Do you think for 1 second that he (your foe) gives a flying TOSS if you object to the war, HELL NO. So where does that leave you, either you fight to stay alive or you can volanteer to become target practise, your choice.

Now pray tell what do you think the odds are that you will chose target practise!

See its all about a lil thing call Military Law. Its not like Civi Law. Most Military Laws are stacked in the counties favour, not the soldier and 1's they conscript you, guess what, Mil Law applies, not civil. So don't give me this BS about you can object and not fight and not suffer for it, because you didnt have that choice. You served or you died or at best imprisoned (persoanly back then being shot would have been better than going to prison). If you try to desert you are shot, if you FIGHT, you just may, just may live to tell about it.

This of course dose not apply to all, some join of their own free will. But even so the reasons they chose may or may NOT have had anything to do with political reasons. It can be for love of country, which has no political connection. It could be a fear of invasion or a fear of loved 1's being killed. In other words the reason a man may chose to go to war can have NOTHING to do with political beliefs. So yes while some did join for reasons that are dispicable other may have had no choice or reasons other than just plain black and white. There is a lot of grey out there and its not just the fog of war.

[Grom]

Whoa! :huh:

But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger"
(Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier)

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:
:down: Cant You be just happy because this mighty vessel have been found ? What is the matter how jurnalist or whoever it was called Nazi Ship or German Ship ? It is not important in this history. Important is that ship have been found. Why do You make kind of political statement because of missspell or missunderstand or however You like to call this small misstake. I have noticed this as very good news. One secret less in human history.

[Nippelspanner]

Whoa! :huh:

But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger"
(Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier)

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry! :damn: :down:
:down: Cant You be just happy because this mighty vessel have been found ? What is the matter how jurnalist or whoever it was called Nazi Ship or German Ship ? It is not important in this history. Important is that ship have been found. Why do You make kind of political statement because of missspell or missunderstand or however You like to call this small misstake. I have noticed this as very good news. One secret less in human history.

You can find the reason inside this thread... By the way, good job to keep this dead discussion alive Grom... :roll:

[Winston]

Has anyone got any links to high-resolution pictures of the sonar images of the wreck? I seen the one article where there was a fellow holding one up but it was a small picture. I’d love to be able to check out the details. Failing that has anyone got any good pictures of the ship when it was afloat?

Hear are some that I've seen so far, just wish they were bigger!

http://foto.mw.mil.pl/foto.php?vhost=navy&id_md=4019
http://foto.mw.mil.pl/foto.php?vhost=navy&id_md=4017

[Grom]

You can find the reason inside this thread...
O really ? I wouldnt guess in my live. ;) BTW Your reasons are like old Poles used to say:
Looking for any hole in whole bridge
By the way, good job to keep this dead discussion alive
Grom... :roll:
Thank You for remain. Let myself decide what is interesting for me and where to answere. ;) BTW i dont think You are to decide which thread is dead, it is only Your own opinion.
For those who did not see mighty Graf Zeppelin after the war, 2 pics made by pilot of rescue plane near to Stettin in 1947 (this is what source of pics claims)
http://www.warships.pl/rozne/zeppelin1.jpg
http://www.warships.pl/rozne/zeppelin2.jpg

[Nippelspanner]

You can find the reason inside this thread...
O really ? I wouldnt guess in my live.
so why do you ask?
BTW i dont think You are to decide which thread is dead, it is only Your own opinion.
I said this discussion is dead/should be....not this thread. there are others too who think this discussion should find an end, so its not only my opinion...

nice pics anyway...

[Skyfire.uy]

Thks for the link mate,!!, great photos!! :)

I have the 1/720 scale modell kit from Revell Germany and the pictures I found in your link are excellent as historical reference! :D. I am eager to start building it :D .

Keep up the good work !!

I would like to see photos of the wreck , snif!


Saludos!!!

Skyfire.uy

[Winston]

Amazing photos there, Managed to find a gallery with some better pictures of the sonar images. Click continue to view them plus some other interesting pictures of the ship when it was above the waves.


http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTUzMDkmbnI9MQ_3_3,00.html

[Dan D]

Now, what is the exact position of the wreck?

A regulation by the Polish authorities from 07.07 2006 that prohibits the diving to the wreck, tells us in § 1 of the decree (note: the figures are in Polish):
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/8085/zarzporzwrakfn1.jpg

On the map it looks like this:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/3596/plansytuacyjnykh9.jpg

A photo from the location:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8075/grafzeppelininternetwk4.jpg


Don't dive there, because it is forbidden! You hear that? Is that clear now?:arrgh!: