View Full Version : Hate preacher turned back from evacuation
Skybird
07-21-06, 05:29 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1825779,00.html
Poor radical boy. Now that the seed of his preachings opens up and triggers consequences - he wants to be rescued by those against whom he has talked so bitterly. If I understood it correctly, when he was rejected to board a British ship to escape Lebanon, he threatened that if he is not allowed onboard that British evacuation ship, he would call his family to Lebanon and if the authorities in Britain really could accept responsebility for his little, cute heartwarming kids to face the risks and dangers. Arab logic?
Psssst, here is a well-meant advise, from Skybird to a poor radical Muhammedan cleric feeling lonely inside his paradise - simply do not call your children to Lebanon, and we all are fine: you, we, and them. :smug:
Heh, yeah I saw this on the ITV news last night, talk about ironic. We should do ourselves a favour and give the Israelis the GPS co-ordinates of where he's staying. :rock:
hahahahahahahaha
I suspect some well meaning doo-gooder will sound off about how we should take the moral high ground and allow this twat back to the UK regardless of his attitude and radical voice as it's the 'human' thing to do, blah blah blair blair blah.
**** the moral high ground and **** Omar Bakri.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 07:35 AM
hahahahahahahaha
I suspect some well meaning doo-gooder will sound off about how we should take the moral high ground and allow this twat back to the UK regardless of his attitude and radical voice as it's the 'human' thing to do,
so, in other words, we should take the moral low ground... right...
we should be just like the animals that we attest to be better than...
just a question... a question that most civilized human beings already know the answer to...
we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'...
i wonder how he would look at this...
now i'm not putting the US up as the professors of the moral high ground or anything like that... our history is self evident...
i'm just a lil taken back by your well meaning do gooder statement... especially since you are thousands of miles away from any of the happenings... so easy for you to sluff off the lives of people, regardless of how dispicable they may appear... as being worthless...
when your time for judgement comes... lets hope that whatever god you happen to believe in... whatever do gooder that go out of his or her way to pull your behind out of the fire... lets hope that they are a bit more tolerant than you would appear to be...
--Mike
Mr Bakri was born in Syria and is believed to hold joint Syrian and Lebanese citizenship. He was granted political asylum in the UK in the 1980s because of his involvement with Islamist groups opposed to the secular government of Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad, the father of Syria's current president.
Mr Bakri had praised the September 11 attackers and called for Britain to become an Islamist state, and is regarded as the spiritual leader of Al-Ghurabaa, the organisation responsible for February's Danish embassy protests (http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703518,00.html) against cartoons of Mohammed.
He voluntarily left Britain last August days after the Home Office announced it was looking at using treason charges to prosecute him over inflammatory comments made by his Islamist group al-Muhajiroun.
See bold text: that is why I couldn't care less about him. He was offered the hospitality of the United Kingdom and imo took full advantage of our tollerance and secularism and other freedoms upheld by brittish law to advocate hate and condone murder. So you think we (or the US for that matter) should welcome him back with open arms and a bouquet of flowers?
Perhaps you're mistaking my reference to the moral high ground as a view I would impose upon everyone, regardless of their intent or belief or background?
Why should the UK accept the return of a snake such as Omar Bakri?
Besides, he clearly has joint Syrian and Lebanese citizenship so why could he not be evacuated to Syria instead? Oh yes, that's right, he caused a stirr and had to leave his homeland because he opposed the secular governement there. If you make yourself unwelcome in your own country and then in another which gave you a place to live and 'protection' under law...
we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'...
A question for you:
As a foreigner in receipt of your governements hospitality, if I were to stand on a soapbox in the middle of new york saying how wonderful I thought the actions of the September 11th perpetrators were and how I thought the USA should be forcibly made into an Islamic state, how long do you think it would take for me to be deported "back to whatever 'orrible little country you came from, squier." irrespective of the inconvenience to myself or whether my life might be in danger upon my return there?
Am I wrong thinking that it is a general understanding in the US that one should earn their place in society before one can enjoy its benefits and support as is exampled by some of the comments round here concerning the unemployed in your country? I'm not having a dig there, but I get the impression that you only 'get out what you put in', as it were.
I don't dissmiss the need for morality with integrity and honour and to uphold decency and general goodness towards those in need, but can you honestly say this man deserves the right to claim the benefit of such aid from those he would quite happily denounce and publically advocate the overthrow of?
He has done nothing whatsoever to earn that right by his actions to date. His current difficulty is entirely of his own design.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 09:25 AM
So you think we (or the US for that matter) should welcome him back with open arms and a bouquet of flowers?
hahahaha... your imagination runs off with you... show me where i ever said or even implied that...
If I were to stand on a soapbox in the middle of new york saying how wonderful I thought the actions of the September 11th perpetrators were and how I thought the USA should be forcibly made into an Islamic state
as long as you had a permit, i'd simply ignore you... but i wouldn't take away your right to say it... this is at the heart of a democracy we have here... you don't seem to understand that at all...
Am I wrong thinking that it is a general understanding in the US that one should earn their place in society before one can enjoy its benefits and support
yes... you are verrrrrry verrrrry wrong on this point...
He has done nothing whatsoever to earn that right by his actions to date.
what have you done... what have you done that would make you more rescueable...
i've seen wounded enemy soldiers, people who fought against and may have killed our own troops, tended to by US Army medical personel... explain dat with your short sighted and narrow viewpoint of civilized acceptance...
--Mike
Ahhh another person prosecuted for not believing what everyone else believes.....
your imagination runs off with you... show me where i ever said or even implied that... What are you suggesting be done with him then? Allowing him back to the UK amounts to the same thing.
yes... you are verrrrrry verrrrry wrong on this point... Well, I did ask; nothing verrry verrry about it....
what have you done... what have you done that would make you more rescueable... Nothing like that guy for sure.
i've seen wounded enemy soldiers, people who fought against and may have killed our own troops, tended to by US Army medical personel... explain dat with your short sighted and narrow viewpoint of civilized acceptance... Ah, since when did the Hippocratic Oath have anything to do with international politics?
Horses for courses.
I for one am sick and tired of Omar Bakri and his sort. Good riddance, I say.
i think the thing is that every one has the right to believe anything they want---or feel is correct according to their culture---but it's when said right is assumed to include the assignation that this right only applys to you...as is allmost inevitable with many religious beliefs---in fact it is nigh on compulsory is it not?
so you let him on the boat and half way home he blows the thing up shouting "death to the infidels"--
no one's rights are best served by this---:hmm:
only compromise i can think of here that would be tolerable--would be to arrest him --put him in the boats brig under armed gaurd and place him in jail pending investigation under terrorism legislation upon arriving on british soveriegn soil..
Skybird
07-21-06, 09:56 AM
Unbelievable that even this story cannot be agreed on by all, and laughed about. I surely did not expect this with this post this time, serious.
Protecting somebody else's right to have his different opinion (no matter if he can found it with solid facts or not - but it surely makes a qualitative difference) is one thing.
Protecting someone to overcome and destroy myself and turning my own tolerance against me is something totally different, and potentially suicidal.
German constitution, article 20, paragraph 4 (or 3) gives every German the right to resist - even by the use of force - to everybody who wants to overthrow the constitutional order of Germany. Beside that, we have guarantees for free opinion, free speech and so on. Only the rules that guarantee these freedoms are non-negotiable, and it necessarily must be so, else these freedoms are no longer possible. I am sure that American laws have something comparable.
Mike, tolerance is a nice thing, but if you tolerate your own destroying or your own overthrowing by the other, in the name of tolerance for the other's intention, then you are not tolerant, but - ooops, now I almost would have said something...
Unlimited, indiscriminative tolerance leads to anarchy and the law of the strongest. It is not only illogical and acchieves the direct opposite of what it claims it wants to acchieve - it is simply stupid.
In other words - one's own tolerance better should be somewhat influenced by the ammount of tolerance the other has for me. Tolerance without demanding reciprocity in that sooner or later leads to one's subjugation by someone who does not share my tolerance.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 10:09 AM
you ask what i suggest be done with him... would it surprise you that i have no opinion whatsoever on what should be done with him... number 1- i am not there... 2- i do not know this person, either personally, or by his record... 3- i am not a citizen of the empire 4- i am not a sponsor or active participant in the evacuation...
i could go on giving you reasons... but in short... IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS... I DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER... i am so far removed from this as to have my opinion be insignificant to the event...
my response was to you...
your cold, narrow, uncivilized, and self rightheous viewpoint of a situation which you 1- are also not there... 2- also do not know this person personally 3- are also not a sponsor or active participant in what is supposed to be a humanitarian effort at rescue...
easy to be god when you are so far removed the sins and uncertainty...
i asked you what you've done to be so much more deserving as this guy... you answer Nothing like that guy for sure.... certainly you've neglected to answer the question with an obvious sidestep... typical of the self righteous...
Ah, since when did the Hippocratic Oath have anything to do with international politics? since civilized men climbed out of caves, and chose to stop eating each other, and instead offer a branch of humanism in there relations with each other... no response to this is necessary...
you are so certain of everything... i would like to, for a few days, have the power to have you change places with this person... for you to undersstand hwy he is the way he is... for you to wlak in his sandals for a few days...
... and for him to walk in your shoes for a few days as well.
@ CB
i think the thing is that every one has the right to believe anything they want---or feel is correct according to their culturei didn't say that... as a matter of fact, my personal feelings is that all who aspouse sensless killing and violence against their brother and sisters... and those who act in accord with this sort of thinking... should be dealt with in terms which they aspouse, and would certainly understand...
the reality of the situationis that i live in a land governed by laws... not by emotions... and the strength that i've seen as being real power , is the strength that is echoed by your own bibles, korans, torahs, learned writings and teachers words...
you all seem to have not heard or read these words... or you would not take the positions of savagary and inhumanity that you do...
obviously you have to safegaurd yourselves... CB suppose a terrorist sub comes out of the depths and torpedoes the boat... what about a terrorist missile... suppose he has infected himself with the plague in order to extract his revenge... ya startin to see the potential for speculation...
suppose the people who are boarding these resuees have the sense and forethought to establish security measures... think that's a more likely possibility...
--Mike
yes i think this crosses over a little with the bishop being niave thread a while back---we are getting into a major crisis surrounding not politics but religion...this is because -i believe (LOL)- we are insanely niave about how members of fundamentalist religious organisations actually view the rest of the population---even where on the surface there is a layer of pleasant gobble-de-gook how do you do god is love rhetoric under neath there is enough venal insanity to make even Hitler blush--
even Christianity which is generally supposed to be fairly harmless by and by-- is founded with the concept that countless billions of people are going to suffer eternally whilst a select few bounce up and down glee fully in bliss-full contentment--not IMO a terribly desirable soloution to the worlds problems--would you buy a used car from these people? frankly i think it's about time we stopped pussy footing around the issues and confronted the religious leaders -of all persusions -on what exactly their beliefs entail and how seriously they expect to be able to influence society as a whole towards their desired model..
it's no longer a quaint side issue..
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 10:23 AM
your very statement above underscores your naivity CB... you use the word 'we'... as if there weren't people sympathetic to and part of the middle eastern culture, here on this very forum, a constituent part of the 'we' you so thoughtlessly use...
your point of view is based on your own particular preferences, biases, prejudices...
don't mistake me for being one of you... i am not...
i have no particular predjucie or agenda... and the ones that i do have, you wouldn't understand...
regardless... you try and justify your positions as being those of humane and civilized majority... it is neither humane, nor civilized... it is only the majority... and that itself, is a limited majority, restricted to the population here.
--Mike
your very statement above underscores your naivity... you use the word we... as if there weren't people sympathetic to and part of the middle eastern culture here on this very forum... a constituent part of the 'we' you so thoughtlessly use...
your point of view is based on your own particular preferences, biases, prejudices...
don't mistake me for one of you... i have no particular predjucie or agenda... and the ones that i do have, you wouldn't understand...
regardless... don't try and justify your positions as being those of humane and civilized majority... it is neither humane, nnor civilized... only the majority... and that is a limited majority, restricted to the population here.
--Mike
jolly good...:up:
IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS... I DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER... good for you, be sure to remind Omar of that when he advocates your murder and destruction of your way of life that enables you to express yourself so...
i asked you what you've done to be so much more deserving as this guy... you answer Quote:
Nothing like that guy for sure.
... certainly you've neglected to answer the question with an obvious sidestep... typical of the self righteous...
Well for a start I am a hardworking and decent person who makes an effort to help out people in what limited way I can - those around me and those who I migh pass in the street- though you take you life into your hands these days with the unsolicited helping of strangers... I damn well don't preach the murder of innocent people for the sake of my barking religious convictions.
I have lived in the ME for a number of years and at one time I was quite prepared to accept our cultural 'differences' as just that. More recent and continuing events have turned my better nature from these radical individuals, as my generosity and that of those countries like mine will only be interpreted as weakness to be exploited by such idealistic zealots.
It is an uncomfortable dichotomy to resolve based upon my previous experience of ME culture and generosity and the continuing brutality to which so many now appear to blindly subscribe, cloaking it in their religion.
I eventually reached the conclusion that there cannot be any sense of reasoning with some people hehehehe :hmm: ...but that is the way of the world for the majority.
Anyway, if you want to be pedantic about it, your view of me is just as biased as my view of omar bakri, but for very different and painfully obvious reasons.
Judge me, if you feel you must, but don't for one minute think that you know me. ;)
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 10:58 AM
Well for a start I am a hardworking and decent person who makes an effort to help out people in what limited way I can - or so you see yourself... very magnamimous of you...
be sure to remind Omar of that when he advocates your murder and destruction of your way of life you mean like your great great grandfathers did back in 1776, or there abouts...
ever hear the ole sticks and stones ditty... obviously not...
you sound like another victim of fear and predjudice... they look different... they believe in different values... lets get rid of em all...
tell me... what side of the sectarian violence were you on up there in Belfast and Ulster just a few years ago... what was your solution to that lil outbreak of 'terrorism'...
draw any parallels to what's happening in the middle east today...
this should be good...
--Mike
what side of the sectarian violence were you on up there in Belfast and Ulster just a few years ago.. Well if you must know, the side which didn't believe in murder for one's religious beliefs; be they catholic or protestant.
or so you see yourself... very magnamimous of you... you're quite arrogant, arn't you? :yep::hmm:
I'm off home for the weekend now, but if you're still itching for an argument come monday morning, I'm sure I can find the time and oblige you with something suitably intollerant to your sense of ideals... tata now.
I don't want to see that mad sod back here, if he gets on a boat I hope they dump him in the sea.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-21-06, 11:35 AM
you're quite arrogant, arn't you?
it only seems that way to you because of your ignorance and lack of humanity...
anyone would justify the slaughter of innocents, for any reasons what soever,
surely must be the arrogant one...
--Mike
tycho102
07-21-06, 11:54 AM
so, in other words, we should take the moral low ground... right...
we should be just like the animals that we attest to be better than...
we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'...
We also had a guy who recognized Islam (http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/35803) for what it is. He was fortunate enough to be physically distanced from it's mass -- a mass of which I would very much like to see him deal with, today, when continents are routinely seperated by 12 hours instead of 12 days.
As for the thread topic, I can only say this: Oh, Praise Allah!
SUBMAN1
07-21-06, 10:55 PM
Old adage - you reap what you sew
Yep the Brits could have towed him a 1000ft behind in a dingy but that would have been tasking even the most charitable country.
What a loser trying to hitch a ride from a country he turned his back on.
Yahoshua
07-22-06, 02:33 AM
Hey red, if you don't care one way or the other then why exactly are you attacking evrybody for their opinion of this man when you state that you prefer to be oblivious to the situation?
And regarding Democracy: Democracy gives us freedoms that no other government has granted to the citizens at large before (other than being a hermit, in which you decide EVERYTHING by yourself...the con is that you have to provide everything for yourself too, that gets tiring).
Democracy also sets boundaries, and those boundaries are generally not unreasonable, but in fact desireable: The following is forbidden:
-Murder
-Theft (in any way shape or form)
-Rape
-Being a troll (not really forbidden but we counter this with courtesy and politeness)
-Lying in order to gain something that isn't yours or lying in a court of law
-Misappropriation of public/government fund or branches or misuse of power
-The violation of law (whether just or unjust is something of another issue but one of great importance)
The following is encouraged in Democracy:
-Voting (I've lost faith in this one since I have no idea who I'm voting for since everyone takes off the mask once they're in office)
-Freedom of speech (as pursuant to law, which is really based on whether or not it is just or unjust)
-Obeying the law and contributing to the safety of the community
Now this is where all the sh*t hits the fan.
All this can only work if the people who are walking and living within the boundaries of the law, have good enough morals and have their head on straight will be able to make this system work, while still providing freedoms granted by the democracy they live within. Those kind of people all dissapeared about 50 years ago.
I know I'm leaving my post off at an odd point but I'm tired now and I'll finish it later.
Yep the Brits could have towed him a 1000ft behind in a dingy but that would have been tasking even the most charitable country.
What a loser trying to hitch a ride from a country he turned his back on.
No problem I would tow him in a leaky dingy in shark infested water.:p
we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'... I don't see how this has anything to do with freedom of speech. Why is the Royal Navy obligated to pick up someone who doesn't have a British passport?
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-22-06, 06:30 AM
first of all, i'm not attacking anyone... second, i never said the Brits had any responsibility to do anything... that is all from your own imaginations... read again what i said, and stop putting words in my mouth...
if anything, i merely present you with the truths... clear, clean, concise, objective... you are the ones who want to claim to be so civilized... you are the ones who hold yourselves in such high moral esteem... it's your call as to what you would do... i'm over here... i'm not involved...
i remember the same sorta crap from you people when the bombs were going off in the UK, and the police shot this poor guy... everyone jumped up to defend the cops shooting him... mainly because the guy was different... i told you, before the facts were even revealed, that maybe this guy just didn't pay his back alimony or something... but every one of you saw terrorists in the bushes... shoot em all, let god sort it out...
well... you're pretty much doing the same thing here... most of you have never been in the middle east... most of you don't know jack about the cultures there... the least most of you could do would be to give this fool the basic rights your own society gaurantees...
noone said you had to take him seriously... noone said you had to listen...
it just surprises me... that lil ole me, the less civilized amongst you, would be amongst the minority here that would allow this fool his right to speak his mind freely, in a so called free democracy... without making him pay for what he said possibly with his life...
its so easy for you to deny the basic freedoms to someone else... whether they be right or wrong, or what they say be popular or unpopular... go ahead...
1937 Bavaria... amazing how quickly the lessons history has taught us are forgotten...
to live in a democracy and to safeguard the very tenets of that democracy, requires strong people... people who do not fear the truth... people who do not fear the words of others...
you lot obviously are not cut from that cloth... fortunately, others are there to secure for you, the very freedoms and rights you would deny others... lets hope you always are on the popular side of the opinion pole... that you never come down with leprosy of being the unpopular minority...
--Mike
Skybird
07-22-06, 08:24 AM
if anything, i merely present you with the truths... clear, clean, concise, objective... Your interpretation of truth, to be precise.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-22-06, 12:30 PM
no... just the facts son... just the facts...
clean... clear... unadulterated... facts...
deal with em.
--Mike
Skybird
07-22-06, 01:36 PM
And I wish I were a prince of a rich kingdom.
Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense
07-22-06, 01:39 PM
you probably do...
--Mike
scandium
07-22-06, 02:55 PM
and probably a rich Saudi Arabian one ;)
:lol:
NEON DEON
07-23-06, 02:50 PM
The man is not a British citizen.
He does not have a British Passport.
He is a subversive.
My question would be can the British Navy evacuate all British citizens, then everyone with a British passport, then everyone who is not a subversive that wants to leave?:hmm:
Mr. Bakri said:
“I am appealing on behalf of my children who are worried and they want to see their own father. Do you want my little sons or my little family to come now to Lebanon? I don't think you want that."
My humanitarian response to that would be to have the Department of child and family services (or what ever it is called in GB) take immediate custody of his children and start court proceedings declaring him an un-fit parent.
The British government should not totally abandon poor Mr. Bakri. They should help him contact his own government. The Syrians. I am sure the Syrians would want to do the humane thing and rescue one of their own citizens.:D
Skybird
07-23-06, 03:31 PM
It is clear that it is the man that was not wanted back in Britain, and right so. The missing passport ist just the excuse. British navy today has flown out a German family that got severly injured during one Israeli strike. These Germans also had no British passports, I strongly assume. The French have evacuated non-french people today, again Germans amongst them. Again, passports were not the issue. It is the man that is rejected, not his nationality or non-nationality. And seeing what he is, we have all right not to allow him back not only to England, but to all Europe as well. People who want to live in europe must be in strong support and favour of Europe. That is one of the most important, primary preconditions. Those that want to hurt europe must not be welcomed, not in the name of their hostile cause, not in the name of their families.
He is free to go to Syria - and tell his family to meet him there.
Ishmael
07-23-06, 06:05 PM
There's a saying where I come from regarding Mr. Bakri's situation.
"My, what an unfortunate circumstance."
But, then, I think all Muslims accused of terrorism should be tried under Sharia with our own hand-picked Islamic judges. When they are convicted, they should be taken out into international waters, their right hand cut off, and made to walk the plank in shark-infested waters. We should film the whole process and send those videos to Al-Jazeera. We can always rightly claim that we didn't kill them, the sharks did. We gave them a chance to swim for it. Of course, 500 miles to the nearest land is quite a swim.
Yahoshua
07-23-06, 06:31 PM
gruesome.....but is it gruesome enoguh to get them to stop? I dunno.
Gizzmoe
07-24-06, 08:52 PM
FYI, I´ve deleted all "Voltaire" posts, they had nothing to do with the original discussion.
Ishmael
07-25-06, 03:39 AM
No right hand, no martyrdom, no Diamond lane to Allah. Trial and conviction in an Islamic court guarantees that. Sharia calls for removal of the right hand(The hand of Allah). It's the law they chose, let them be tried under it. It's true justice and would have a deterrent effect.
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