Oscar II subs for who???

[Sea Demon]

So Russia is intending to finish the last Oscar II submarine (Belgorad) for another country? Who do you suppose would be the nation the Russian Defense Ministry is talking about? :hmm: China, India, Ukraine?

See the Subsim homepage for the story.

[PeriscopeDepth]

From what I read in the article, it seemed as if they'd be willing. No buyers yet, though.

PD

[Oberon]

It'll be the Chinese, they'll be in the market for a carrier killer for sure. :damn:

[Kapitan]

China or india most likely china she is the only one currently with the finacial means to keep this submarine in service, and arm it.

[XabbaRus]

I disagree.

I think it is India, they have the means and they want a nuke badly. Oscar II would be a short cut to that end. Also would be better than anything the Chinese have or will have. Even just the one would put India in the superior position.

[Kapitan]

I have to agree with xabbarus as well although the chinese option is more favourable, i do think india is also a good power to have this submarine, and with it india would be untouchable by the pakistani navy, this submarine could take out everything single handed.

However each submarine costs around $1.5 billion and your looking at a fair amount more to keep it in service parts weapons crew training ect, the indian economy is good but i think it does lack alot of strengh to support such a large powerful vessel for many years.

For china and india this submarine would be a great addition to thier fleet, they have the most powerfullest attack submarine in the world in thier hands, who wouldnt be happy? bar the americans.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

India... who else...

they're hell bent on an out of control arms buildup that will surely come to a head as all parties in the region race to buy the latest and the greatest from the US or the former USSR... or France, the UK, Japan, etc...

i wonder what justification they use for this when a significant number of their own people still live in squalid conditions of poverty...

the revererd Mahatma would surely turn over twice in his grave...

--Mike

[tycho102]

Yeah, it's supposed to be going to India. India has been working on a sub reactor for over decade, and they've been enlisting the aid of Russians to do it. As I understand it, they've got a working prototype but just don't have the actual ship built to contain it.

[Kapitan]

It will go lovely with them two akulas they have coming, they are the most powerfullest navy in the indian ocean and these submarines will re inforce that.

However they may want more and these submarines are not cheap kursk cost $1.3 billion and that was in the 1990's immagine the cost now.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Powerfullest? :D

PD

[Kapitan]

In terms of fire power she is by far thee most powerfullest, she can carry 24 nuclear armed cruise missiles in contrast the 688i can only carry 12, but with the advent of the ohio SSGN it brings a new meaning.

The ohios are more land attack not a offical attack submarine, while the oscars carry 24 missiles and the ohios 154 most of the ohios will probably be for land attack, but in terms of capibility in sinking masses of ships the oscars wont have a problem theres 11 of them and only 4 ohios.

Ohios dont carry as many torpedos nor as many topedo tubes in contrast they are just submerging missile batteries the pure role of the oscar was laid out from day 1 unlike the ohios.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

question...

1- who is India preparing for war against... all this military procurement lately

2- why would they think that having nuclear weapons makes them more secure... it didn't make the US or USSR any more secure during the cold war...

3- why would the Russians supply the Indians with a long range nuclear delivery capability... one that will definitely be harder to target should the need arise...

4- do the Indians think that they can financially sustain the infrastructure required by these new resources...


--Mike

[Kapitan]

Same could be said for pakistan, both nations have a history of arms races and this is what it is pakistan is no where near as rich as india and can only afford $3.2billion on its defence india tops of $10 billion.

As for sustaining the cost yes i think india could maintain this submarine to a resonable level.

Who is it preparing for war against? pakistan of corse

Why do nuclear weapons make them safer? its not about saftey its about MAD.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

well, given the fact that almost half the population of India lives at or below the poverty line, i would think that taking care of their own people's welfare would take precedence over making them a target for nuclear aniallation...

MAD is definitely the correct term if India thinks they need an Oscar class submarine fleet armed with nucs, in order to defend themselves against Pakistan...


--Mike

[SUBMAN1]

China. Does Russia know that it could be sealing its own fate with all these sales? :nope:

-S

[Type941]

it'll go to India - the US would not make a big stink about it. You know, after they reversed on nuclear proliferation treaty themselves, making an exception for them.

Russia might give China fighter planes, but I doubt it's too eager to give China nuke platforms...

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

China. Does Russia know that it could be sealing its own fate with all these sales? :nope:

-S

It is between that and completely freezing their military-industrial complex, which in the long run will be even more harmful for their security.

[Kapitan]

China relys on russia for alot of things should russia pull the plug on that then china would fall apart in a matter of months, china isnt 100% self sufficent.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

don't let the point that the growth of Chinese economy is reshaping the very dynamics of the region escape you...

they've exhibited a demonstrated proficiency in all technical fields that constitutes the range of knowledge from which weapons systems and counter weapons systems would be built...

they have one of the largest populations in the world...

they have ethnic populations in every country in the world...

the collision of economic and industrial interests in the Korean penninsula, in Honk Kong, and the uncontrolled military build up of the last few years... tied along with the mindless western adventures in the middle east reducing the response capabilities of the US, UK, and even the Russians...

these factors make it a certainty that the future confrontation will be between China and someone... and current trends indicate it will eventually go nuclear...

and in the end, if anyone is left, they will undoubtedly bespeaking mandarin...


but getting back to the Oscar and India... the effectiveness of any weapons system today is measured by the total system it is integrated with... without such a system, all you have is a potential risk, and a unwarranted drain on your economy...

--Mike

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

but getting back to the Oscar and India... the effectiveness of any weapons system today is measured by the total system it is integrated with... without such a system, all you have is a potential risk, and a unwarranted drain on your economy...--Mike

On the other hand, a system starts with its individual pieces, so if you are ever going to get a good system you have to start by writing up a doctrine, then buying the best pieces in the correct proportions (read the doctrine) to build your system.

[Vinay]

India has operated a nuclear sub leased from USSR. That was returned and now it is again speculated of nuclear subs in IN. It is also speculated that the India is building N-subs with Russian assistance.

[Kapitan]

its not speculated its true both akulas are near ready to go.

[Rav3n]

its not speculated its true both akulas are near ready to go.

What akulas? Earlier reports said the newly launched Nerpa was to be leased for 10 years to India, but now Russian officials denies the reports. The Nerpa will join Russia's Pacific Fleet in 2007.

[Kapitan]

I can assure you its not fitting out is now and she will be leased soon very soon !

[Rav3n]

I can assure you its not fitting out is now and she will be leased soon very soon !

Any news on this?

[baggygreen]

question...

1- who is India preparing for war against... all this military procurement lately
Oooo goody, something i wrote at uni actually comes in handy. India are threatened by China on one side, and Muslim states on the other. For people saying "why china?" it is two-fold - one because they are the 2 biggest nations in the world, they both have rapidly growing economies that cannot be sustained independently, and hell, they share a common border. A lot of it is to balance against the perceived chinese threat (who i might add, are extending their loose, unofficial alliances right down to border India on the east as well as north). The second chinese threat is well, "mummy johnny has one, i want one too". balance.

As far as the muslim nations threat bit goes, well hey we've got a lot of extremists calling for a global islamic state. Probably never happen. But, if they were to unite at least all the muslim nations of the world, well hey, you got a stretch from the ME and North Africa across to Indonesia. And look, smack bang in the middle you got a democratic society, modernising and so getting close ties to the west, and hey, majority Hindu - Hindu and Muslim = tension. add in extremists on either side, n you got more than 15% of the worlds population fighting in 1 country alone! that would be bad.

2- why would they think that having nuclear weapons makes them more secure... it didn't make the US or USSR any more secure during the cold war...
All about MAD, mate. and seeing as the Pakistanis have them, there ain't no way India's giving em up! plus, following on from above, if you got a billion crazy, not-afraid-of-death-as-a-perceived-martyr soldiers coming knocking at your door, you need a pretty big can of fly spray to knock em down....

3- why would the Russians supply the Indians with a long range nuclear delivery capability... one that will definitely be harder to target should the need arise...
Russia fighting India is a hell of a lot less likely than Russia fighting china, or china fighting India. India and russia are getting very cosy lately, i wouldnt be surprised to find a pact or alliance between them in the near future (next decade or so). China will of course, feel threatened by it (it is aimed at them after all..). Suppose china and india go to war - its in Russias interests to help the indians to destroy their most likely rival. And suppose russia and china go to war. "Hey mr india, we gave you all these lovely weapons, come help us or you'll be next in line!" "ok mr russia, i'll help you with these lovely submarines you gave me"

4- do the Indians think that they can financially sustain the infrastructure required by these new resources...
You'd be surprised. Everyone focusses on China being the great economic powerhouse, and india gets left behind. Granted, half (i think less, but hey) of the population is below the poverty line. that still leaves oh let me think.. about 3/4 of a billion people to drive the indian market. big numbers. couple with the number of foreign companies investing literally billions of dollars there, plus the Indian economy reaping the benefits of intergration into a globalised world.. yes, they think they can afford it.


go me. :)


(pick it to pieces if you dare... i mean like... :))

[Oberon]

Hate to break it to you Baggygreen...but Mike left ages ago ;)

You may be waiting a while for any reply from him.... :ping:

[baggygreen]

:dead: :rotfl:


Nah i did know that, he's been a conspicuous absence! But i figured that it was a question that hadnt been answered on the thread, and so it wasnt directed at him exactly - more just throwing some answers out into the general interwebness of the net...:arrgh!: