Turkey threatens to attack in Iraq

[Skybird]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1185357.ece

http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&alt=&hn=34872

If there is a mess - live it to the very end. A Turkish intervention is the last thing that is needed for Iraq. On the other hand - it could help to move Europeans away from the idea of Turkish EU membership. Seen that way, it is an opportunity for the West. If that is not queer.

[snowsub]

I reakon they could do some artilliary strikes with only harsh words from the US.
Turkey's airforce over Iraq might push it a little though, but actual turkish forces on the ground would really have the "you know what" hit the fan.

[PeriscopeDepth]

Good look with that Turkey.

Silly Turks, Trix are for kids.

PD

[Skybird]

I think you underestimate the Turkish military. We repeatedly met or where escorted by ground forces of theirs. They are tough, and good, usually disciplined soldiers, the officers keep a tight and punishing regime with little tolerance for failures. I have also seen myself in Eastern Anatolia what they can do to villages that they take on - they used to do their business with far lesser self-restriction than we in the West wish our troops to do. Traditonally, the Turks are a warrior people, and they were considered to be a military elite in earlier times. And I doubt that they leave it to some arty strikes if they decide to go after the Kurds in Northwestern Iraq. I expect a major ground operation if they should become serious about this. And Washington already has learned by several examples that the cold war is over and Ankara does not listen to it anymore. they have their own ambitions, and if America likes that or not is of little interest for them. In this context I even ask if now while the threat which to counter NATO has been founded for has gone, turkey even should remain a member of NATO anymore. Despite shared interests rooting in the constellation of the cold war, Europe has nothing more in common with Turkey's interests.

[scandium]

*shrug* what do you expect? It is open season in the ME and everyone's a target or potential target by everyone else. Israel is off hunting in Lebanon and Gazza with an eye on Syria and Iran, who are both planning or intending who knows what - perhaps nothing - Saudia Arabia is busy repressing its own people, Pakistan and India are preoccupied with each other and Kashmir, Afghanistan is a disaster, and the US Military is so helplessly bogged down in Iraq that it still cannont get all of its own people out of Lebanon even though its right next door, as is the West which cannot even agree on what to do over Lebanon or how to enforce any measures like an enforced cease fire.

Turkey, if you'll recall, was a major regional power in its own rights in the not so distant Ottoman empire, still retains considerable military power, has a real beef of its own with the Kurds, and covets the rich oil fields in their region which would be a huge boon to the Turkish economy. What better time to find, or manufacture, a pretext for an incursion into Kurdish Iraq and who is going to stop them?

[snowsub]

<snip> What better time to find, or manufacture, a pretext for an incursion into Kurdish Iraq and who is going to stop them?

US Forces, I'll bet if they notice a buildup there will be "increase insurgent activity" around the turkish border in N Iraq.

Dump a few companies there and turkey will back off a bit, might not want a "mistake" to happen and some GI's get killed, bad for diplomatic relations you know...

just my prescient 2c

[August]

the US Military is so helplessly bogged down in Iraq that it still cannont get all of its own people out of Lebanon even though its right next door

Apparently you aren't that good at geography, are you?

[STEED]

What a bloody mess this whole situation has come to, what next I ask, as I wait to see.

[TteFAboB]

Grey Wolves. Leeway for nationalist boost.

They know they can exterminate Kurds when nobody's watching, but they wouldn't dare doing it with every camera pointed at them. Every camera pointed at them: that's what it comes down to.

[scandium]

the US Military is so helplessly bogged down in Iraq that it still cannont get all of its own people out of Lebanon even though its right next door
Apparently you aren't that good at geography, are you?

*yawn* that all you got?

You ignored the part about how helplessly bogged down in Iraq you are, so perhaps your eyes are finally opening at least. :up:

[August]

the US Military is so helplessly bogged down in Iraq that it still cannont get all of its own people out of Lebanon even though its right next door
Apparently you aren't that good at geography, are you?
*yawn* that all you got?

You ignored the part about how helplessly bogged down in Iraq you are, so perhaps your eyes are finally opening at least. :up:
No i ignored it because your scenario is nonsensical and stupid. I was doing you a favor by not pointing it out.

But since you ask; Putting large amounts of troops into Lebanon, and we still have plenty at our disposal, isn't going get those people out any faster. What is required are ships and planes, neither of which are "bogged down" in Iraq or anywhere else.

Do you think there is just some kind of huge magic carpet we can just plunk down there to move several thousand scattered people in seconds, just so that hateful foreigners like yourself have nothing to whine about?

Try worrying about your own people. You guys are hardly bogged down in Iraq, so why haven't you evacuated your people yet wiseguy?

[PeriscopeDepth]

They certainly do have their own interests, and integration into a broader western economic community happens to be one of them. All of which will go away if they go into Iraq with any sort of military force against the US's wishes. I have no doubt the Turkish military is a capable force. We've been making it so for the past couple of decades. Manufacture a pretext for an incursion into Northern Iraq? Do you honestly think we're so bogged down in Iraq as to stand idly by and let'em have at it? Let alone the fact that should Turkey go in they'll have to deal with a guerilla war just as bad as the one we have going now. There's a huge difference between a response to Lebanon and a response to Turkey muscling it's way into Iraq. Using US/western indecisiveness in Iraq as part of your argument doesn't fly.

And in case you haven't noticed, it's been open season in the MEast for the past 25 years. Would've been far easier for the Turks to grab those oil fields from an impotent Saddam than right under the noses of 120,000 American troops.

PD

[scandium]

Do you think there is just some kind of huge magic carpet we can just plunk down there to move several thousand scattered people in seconds, just so that hateful foreigners like yourself have nothing to whine about?

This from guy who essentially said the 8 Canadians killed in Lebanon deserved it for having the nerve, along with 25,000 Americans, 'to think they can move around the Arab world freely and expecting Israel to do nothing'.

And ignoring the fact that your own President supported the new Lebanese PM and their fledgling democracy, that Lebanon is pro-American, and that the Lebanese government has no hand in the events taking place there anymore than the Lebanese civilians and 10s of thousands of Canadians, Americans, and Europeans who have been trapped there by the IDF and are at its mercy.

Let me buy you a clue August: as far as Lebanon goes, we are both foreigners and if there is anyone here that is hateful it is you and your ilk who will bend over so far in your support of Israel's collective punishment of everyone in Lebanon, Hezbollah, ordinary Lebanese, Canadian, Australian, American, whatever - you don't differentiate - that you'll defend them no matter how outrageous or disproportionate their actions or who those actions harm.

Now I'm done reading these threads on this ME conflict here because the whole thing just disgusts me and arguing about it with people like you is only increasing my disgust. :stare:

[August]

Good. Your disgust keeps me warm at night.

[Skybird]

As a matter of fact Hizbollah is sitting at the oh so pro-American oh so pro-West and oh so democratic Lebanese cabinet table. And the president of Lebanon not before recent day'S events (NINE days of such events it took him) concluded that Hezbollah has become a state inside the state, and that it has become a "problem". The bombing obviously helped him in his thinking ability. Israel today said they have reduced Hezbollah's abilities by around 50%. even if that is an optimistic exaggeration, and it is only half of that, then a reduction of Hezbollah's potentials by 25% still would proove that the operation acchieves what it has been designed for. That is war: keep hammering it until it brakes, at least for a while. Maybe Lebanon should have adressed the world on the state-in-the-state-problem some time earlier (not that the world would have been able to help as long as not attacking those who pull the strings: Syria, and Iran).It is only Scandium's subjective perspective labelling the war an intentional collective punishment of everyone, for he wants to make it look as bad as possible. He ignores that Hezbollah intentziknally seeks shelter in civilian surroundings so that every fighting against Hezbollah necessarily will cause civilian damage and losses, triggering exactly the reaction he so willingly shows by himself. As I see it, Israel does not allow itself to get prevented from cleaning up the terrorist presence inside Lebanon by an argument of these terrorists hiding in the middle of civilian crowds and structures and thus should considered to be un touchable. That is not the same as "intentional collective punishement". "Uncompromised determination" describes it better, I think. That is war. Why has Israel never been victim to airplane hijacks? Because it is known that they NEVER negotiate with hijackers of airplanes, no matter what becomes of the passengers. Helmut Schmidt acted the same way during the Mogadishu crisis. He and his whole cabinet back then - had been veterans, and soldiers in active war service.

[Fish]

As a matter of fact Hizbollah is sitting at the oh so pro-American oh so pro-West and oh so democratic Lebanese cabinet table. And the president of Lebanon not before recent day'S events (NINE days of such events it took him) concluded that Hezbollah has become a state inside the state, and that it has become a "problem". The bombing obviously helped him in his thinking ability. Israel today said they have reduced Hezbollah's abilities by around 50%. even if that is an optimistic exaggeration, and it is only half of that, then a reduction of Hezbollah's potentials by 25% still would proove that the operation acchieves what it has been designed for. That is war: keep hammering it until it brakes, at least for a while. Maybe Lebanon should have adressed the world on the state-in-the-state-problem some time earlier (not that the world would have been able to help as long as not attacking those who pull the strings: Syria, and Iran).It is only Scandium's subjective perspective labelling the war an intentional collective punishment of everyone, for he wants to make it look as bad as possible. He ignores that Hezbollah intentziknally seeks shelter in civilian surroundings so that every fighting against Hezbollah necessarily will cause civilian damage and losses, triggering exactly the reaction he so willingly shows by himself. As I see it, Israel does not allow itself to get prevented from cleaning up the terrorist presence inside Lebanon by an argument of these terrorists hiding in the middle of civilian crowds and structures and thus should considered to be un touchable. That is not the same as "intentional collective punishement". "Uncompromised determination" describes it better, I think. That is war. Why has Israel never been victim to airplane hijacks? Because it is known that they NEVER negotiate with hijackers of airplanes, no matter what becomes of the passengers. Helmut Schmidt acted the same way during the Mogadishu crisis. He and his whole cabinet back then - had been veterans, and soldiers in active war service.

Helmut Schmidt my favorite bundeskanselier.

[Skybird]

Mine too! By a huge lead. The only one person (of two) who ever has rejected the Bundesverdienstkreuz for his chancellorship (Germany's highest medal of honour), saying that as a chancellor it was his duty to do his best, and duty does not need rewards if having been fulfilled, because then it would have been no duty.Many clever things he said and wrote. The entire Bundestag today cannot match his wits. Not to mention his Hanseatic dry sense of humour. :lol:Richard von Weizsäcker is the other of the two german politicians that I deeply respect. Unfortunately, both are "old guard".

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5198290.stm

[Sea Demon]

the US Military is so helplessly bogged down in Iraq that it still cannont get all of its own people out of Lebanon even though its right next door
Apparently you aren't that good at geography, are you?
*yawn* that all you got?

You ignored the part about how helplessly bogged down in Iraq you are, so perhaps your eyes are finally opening at least. :up:
No i ignored it because your scenario is nonsensical and stupid. I was doing you a favor by not pointing it out.

But since you ask; Putting large amounts of troops into Lebanon, and we still have plenty at our disposal, isn't going get those people out any faster. What is required are ships and planes, neither of which are "bogged down" in Iraq or anywhere else.

Do you think there is just some kind of huge magic carpet we can just plunk down there to move several thousand scattered people in seconds, just so that hateful foreigners like yourself have nothing to whine about?

Try worrying about your own people. You guys are hardly bogged down in Iraq, so why haven't you evacuated your people yet wiseguy?
I'm glad you called this guys B.S. August. We've got people over there right now helping with evacuations. The US Navy Seals are delivering food. US Navy ships are in the region. US Marines are over there helping as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_evacuations;_ylt=AiuJ_8KO7wKxGYkg .DUh0fRw24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

BTW, I actually know people on the ground in Iraq right now. One person I know came home two weeks ago to get married in St. Louis. He told me that it's depressing to see that Western media focuses only on one region in Iraq to report on. The Sunni triangle. Most of the rest of Iraq is pretty stable and getting better. Bogged down is not a term I heard him use to describe his experience. Challenges is what I heard, but not quagmire or defeat.

Then there's this from a Marine officer:

http://www.strategypage.com/respect/articles/military_2006720.asp

For those stuck looking at a biased and innacurate press in Canada and other Western countries, it's not hard to see where this mentality comes from. But being willfully naive is quite sad. I'm glad you called it August. :up:

[August]

I'm glad you called this guys B.S. August. We've got people over there right now helping with evacuations. The US Navy Seals are delivering food. US Navy ships are in the region. US Marines are over there helping as well.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_evacuations;_ylt=AiuJ_8KO7wKxGYkg .DUh0fRw24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

BTW, I actually know people on the ground in Iraq right now. One person I know came home two weeks ago to get married in St. Louis. He told me that it's depressing to see that Western media focuses only on one region in Iraq to report on. The Sunni triangle. Most of the rest of Iraq is pretty stable and getting better. Bogged down is not a term I heard him use to describe his experience. Challenges is what I heard, but not quagmire or defeat.

Then there's this from a Marine officer:

http://www.strategypage.com/respect/articles/military_2006720.asp

For those stuck looking at a biased and innacurate press in Canada and other Western countries, it's not hard to see where this mentality comes from. But being willfully naive is quite sad. I'm glad you called it August. :up:


Why thanks Sea Demon. Yeah I know a few people in Iraq right now as well. One of them, a Marine, has just recently returned and, although he couldn't give me details, i believe is being sent to Lebanon to aid in the evacuaiton effort. He volunteered for it.

His opinion of the situation in Iraq is much the same as you've mentioned.

[scandium]

http://www.nysun.com/article/36425

Turks Cite Israel's Lebanon War As Precedent Against Kurds

ISTANBUL, Turkey — Turkey said yesterday that Israel's action in Lebanon to stop Hezbollah attacks meant it should be allowed to take similar steps against Kurdish guerrillas operating from northern Iraq against its forces.

Despite strong opposition from America, its military is now drawing up plans for either an air or ground assault. "Whatever step needs to be taken will be taken," the Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, said.

Fifteen Turkish soldiers, police, and security guards have been killed in the southeast of the country in the last week in clashes with fighters from the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK).

It has long been a concern in Turkey that the growth of Kurdish nationalism in northern Iraq, where the country's instability has permitted a Kurdish semiautonomous state to assume near independence, would inflame Kurdish radicals inside Turkey's borders.

Already this year has seen at least 87 PKK rebels and 51 members of the Turkish security forces killed. A similar rise in attacks by Kurdish armed groups targeting Iran's Kurdish regions resulted in Iranian troops crossing the border earlier this year to wipe out guerrilla bases in northern Iraq.

So far American concern that any armed intervention by Turkey would only destabilize Iraq's north, at present by far the most peaceful part of the country, has prevented similar action being conducted by Turkey, a military ally as a member of NATO.

There would also be strong opposition to an attack from within the European Union, which Turkey hopes to join. The European Union has encouraged the government in Ankara to be as inclusive as possible toward its Kurdish minority as an element of its preparation for talks on E.U. entry.

Any military incursion into Iraq would come at a time when Turkey's prospective accession to the European Union is under particular scrutiny.

But Israel's attacks in Lebanon have led to new demands by the Turkish government that it be allowed to follow suit if American and Iraqi forces do not act quickly against the Kurdish guerrillas, who are believed to be based in northern Iraq's rugged Qandil mountains.

The intervention plans are reported to range from limited artillery barrage and airstrikes to attacks by commando forces.

[bradclark1]

Turks are in the right if they want to act. What are we going to do, attack them for protecting their own border? I don't think so. George and Condi might not like it but oh well. We have to stop this double standard stuff. It confuses people. Well, me anyway.