Where are the Christians?

[scandium]

I couldn't resist posting this article, because the title alone brought instantly to mind all of the numerous threads here on the wrongs done to us by Islamic Jihadists, and always with at least one post lamenting the fact that the Muslims can't seem to control their own extremists. Fair enough. Now I ask you, as does The Conservative Voice, where are the Christians?


When Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert unleashed his navy and air force on Lebanon, accusing that tiny nation of an "act of war," the last pillar of Bush's Middle East policy collapsed.

First came capitulation on the Bush Doctrine, as Pyongyang and Tehran defied Bush's dictum: The world's worst regimes will not be allowed to acquire the world's worst weapons. Then came suspension of the democracy crusade as Islamic militants exploited free elections to advance to power and office in Egypt, Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank, Iraq and Iran.

Now Israel's rampage against a defenseless Lebanon -- smashing airport runways, fuel tanks, power plants, gas stations, lighthouses, bridges, roads and the occasional refugee convoy -- has exposed Bush's folly in subcontracting U.S. policy out to Tel Aviv, thus making Israel the custodian of our reputation and interests in the Middle East.

The Lebanon that Israel, with Bush's blessing, is smashing up has a pro-American government, heretofore considered a shining example of his democracy crusade. Yet, asked in St. Petersburg if he would urge Israel to use restraint in its air strikes, Bush sounded less like the leader of the Free World than some bellicose city councilman from Brooklyn Heights.

What Israel is up to was described by its Army Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz when he threatened to "turn back the clock in Lebanon 20 years."

Olmert seized upon Hezbollah's capture of two Israeli soldiers to unleash the IDF in a pre-planned attack to make the Lebanese people suffer until the Lebanese government disarms Hezbollah, a task the Israeli army could not accomplish in 18 years of occupation.

Israel is doing the same to the Palestinians. To punish these people for the crime of electing Hamas, Olmert imposed an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank and withheld the $50 million in monthly tax and customs receipts due the Palestinians.

Then, Israel instructed the United States to terminate all aid to the Palestinian Authority, though Bush himself had called for the elections and for the participation of Hamas. Our Crawford cowboy meekly complied. The predictable result: Fatah and Hamas fell to fratricidal fighting, and Hamas militants began launching Qassam rockets over the fence from Gaza into Israel. Hamas then tunneled into Israel, killed two soldiers, captured one, took him back into Gaza, and demanded a prisoner exchange.

Israel's response was to abduct half of the Palestinian cabinet and parliament and blow up a $50 million U.S.-insured power plant. That cut off electricity for half a million Palestinians. Their food spoiled, their water could not be purified, and their families sweltered in the summer heat of the Gaza desert. One family of seven was wiped out on a beach by what the IDF assures us was an errant artillery shell.

Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.

But where are the Christians? Why is Pope Benedict virtually alone among Christian leaders to have spoken out against what is being done to Lebanese Christians and Muslims?
The rest of the article you can read here:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/16239.html

[Skybird]

Maybe the Christians are simply sick and tired of the ME, who knows...

Since you are so very sure of that Hizbollah and Hamas shall not be fought against, could you tell us what to do, then? But spare your time if your suggestions are just what the UN is writing in it's papers, or that there shall be negotiations with terror organizations. But any better battle plan is welcomed.

Could you also elaborate what use it could be for Israel to intentionally target Lebanese civilians, and to intentionally destroy harmless private homes, and why it is so sure that these are intentional attacks, not siudeeffects that cannot be avopided when waging war in a heavily urbanized areas? Do you have a better idea of how to reduce Hizbollah's weapon stockpiles, to reduce their freedom of movement, and drive them away from the Israeli border? How to destroy a camp inside an appartmenet house, an ammo stockpile in the backroom of a shop? War is not nice, I agree with Mrs. Reagan. but so far no one has shown up with a better REALISTIC idea of how we could limit the threat that is projected by Hizbollah and Hamas to Israel. The border violations of the past years have been into Israel, not from Israel.

A brief reply please - not one of these twisted long debates about political semantics and thematic sidelines, global warming, the consequences of smoking and epidemic deseases, and hairsplitting definition of terms. The simple question is how to prevent two terror organizations from sending mroe suicide bombers to Israel and firing more missiles into Israeli cities? Your answer?

and keep in mind that since day one on I am opposing the Iraq war as determined as I defend Isreals's action now. No lecturing on how much warmongering and Mohammedan-killing I am.

[SUBMAN1]

Chock up another dumb thread!

[Ducimus]

They can all be found at the local church once a week comparing clothing.

[Kurushio]

The christians (like me) were busy with the world cup, female arse, and drinking beer...you know, the important things in life? We've blimming had enough of war...it gets boring after a while. That's why if it was me, and I'm speaking honestly, I'd nuke every fuker within a thousand mile radius. When you want to get rid of ants, what do you do...? Stamp one at a time?....or find their nest, rip the top apart with a bunker busting shoe, then rape the female ants with toothpicks, pillage their food storage and burn their homes with matchsticks?...then get the queen ant and chop her head off with a razor blade...in front of all the other ants! Then the great dam-busting finale...pour boiling water on the rest of the colony. THAT is how you solve a problem. That'll teach 'em to eat my effing honey!! :stare:

[scandium]

Chock up another dumb thread!

Not a Pat Buchanan fan huh? :D I admit he's a little fringe, but I respect the guy all the same (if for no other reason than for his literary skills and ability to dish out what he thinks because he thinks it, and not because its the PC thing or the popular thing or the book peddling thing). Plus his view on current events in the ME is a little novel and not the same AP sanitized and recycled summary you'd turn up otherwise.

[scandium]

The christians (like me) were busy with the world cup, female arse, and drinking beer...you know, the important things in life? We've blimming had enough of war...it gets boring after a while. That's why if it was me, and I'm speaking honestly, I'd nuke every fuker within a thousand mile radius. When you want to get rid of ants, what do you do...? Stamp one at a time?....or find their nest, rip the top apart with a bunker busting shoe, then rape the female ants with toothpicks, pillage their food storage and burn their homes with matchsticks?...then get the queen ant and chop her head off with a razor blade...in front of all the other ants! Then the great dam-busting finale...pour boiling water on the rest of the colony. THAT is how you solve a problem. That'll teach 'em to eat my effing honey!! :stare:

The only problem with this approach is twofold:

1. People are not ants.

2. Your approach would also involve your own self-immolation. Are you simply suicidal then?

[SUBMAN1]

Chock up another dumb thread!
Not a Pat Buchanan fan huh? :D I admit he's a little fringe, but I respect the guy all the same (if for no other reason than for his literary skills and ability to dish out what he thinks because he thinks it, and not because its the PC thing or the popular thing or the book peddling thing). Plus his view on current events in the ME is a little novel and not the same AP sanitized and recycled summary you'd turn up otherwise.

I don't care for the guy. I mean, one day he shows up and wants to take a tour of my fathers boat. He really isn't interested in my fathers boat, he just wants a handout for his campaign in my book! I mean, he is alright and everything, but still not my cup of tea. He only wrote this article for the simple reason as to turn heads and get attention, just like everything else he does. Just my 2 cents.

-S

[Kurushio]

I don't care for the guy. I mean, one day he shows up and wants to take a tour of my fathers boat. He really isn't interested in my fathers boat, he just wants a handout for his campaign in my book! I mean, he is alright and everything, but still not my cup of tea. He only wrote this article for the simple reason as to turn heads and get attention, just like everything else he does. Just my 2 cents.

-S

Why can't he just ******* and run down the road singing tra-la-la...if he wants attention....like everyone else does.

[scandium]

Maybe the Christians are simply sick and tired of the ME, who knows...

Since you are so very sure of that Hizbollah and Hamas shall not be fought against, could you tell us what to do, then? But spare your time if your suggestions are just what the UN is writing in it's papers, or that there shall be negotiations with terror organizations. But any better battle plan is welcomed.

Could you also elaborate what use it could be for Israel to intentionally target Lebanese civilians, and to intentionally destroy harmless private homes, and why it is so sure that these are intentional attacks, not siudeeffects that cannot be avopided when waging war in a heavily urbanized areas? Do you have a better idea of how to reduce Hizbollah's weapon stockpiles, to reduce their freedom of movement, and drive them away from the Israeli border? How to destroy a camp inside an appartmenet house, an ammo stockpile in the backroom of a shop? War is not nice, I agree with Mrs. Reagan. but so far no one has shown up with a better REALISTIC idea of how we could limit the threat that is projected by Hizbollah and Hamas to Israel. The border violations of the past years have been into Israel, not from Israel.

A brief reply please - not one of these twisted long debates about political semantics and thematic sidelines, global warming, the consequences of smoking and epidemic deseases, and hairsplitting definition of terms. The simple question is how to prevent two terror organizations from sending mroe suicide bombers to Israel and firing more missiles into Israeli cities? Your answer?

and keep in mind that since day one on I am opposing the Iraq war as determined as I defend Isreals's action now. No lecturing on how much warmongering and Mohammedan-killing I am.
In the interests of brevity then I will quote that part of the article I posted, two short paragraphs, which nails precisely my own view. As to the solution, that is for those with more power and resources than I have to come up with; I, for my part, only have that which too many others in power seem to be lacking: an interest in events taking place there and a conviction that this has to stop.

Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to
counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from
which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land
from which attacks are mounted on her people.

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on
civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do
something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a
policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor
our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian.
For my part I am neither American nor particularly Christian, but collectively punishing innocent people sure as hell isn't any value that I subscribe to.

[Onkel Neal]

I don't care for the guy. I mean, one day he shows up and wants to take a tour of my fathers boat. He really isn't interested in my fathers boat, he just wants a handout for his campaign in my book! I mean, he is alright and everything, but still not my cup of tea. He only wrote this article for the simple reason as to turn heads and get attention, just like everything else he does. Just my 2 cents.

-S

Why can't he just ******* and run down the road singing tra-la-la...if he wants attention....like everyone else does.

You were given several friendly requests and a warning to avoid vulgar language, provoking members, and sending obscene private messages. When I got in tonight, there were 3 PMs from different people, all with complaints about your obscene language to them. Find another sandbox to play in.

Neal Stevens
Subsim Admin

[Skybird]

Scandium,

Thatn is no answer. You should tell us how to acchieve the objecives in the first paragraph of your quote, instead you tell us that becasue of the second paragraph (with some questionable content) we are not allowed to acchieve the objectives of the first paragraph.

So I repeat the question: how to reduce the armed capacity of two terror organizations, how to hinder them to strike at Israel and sending suicide bombers and missiles into Israeli cities, and preferrably keep them away from Israeli borders and reduce their striking potential to meaningless terms? You only tell us what we should not do, so what should we do?

[Skybird]

I don't care for the guy. I mean, one day he shows up and wants to take a tour of my fathers boat. He really isn't interested in my fathers boat, he just wants a handout for his campaign in my book! I mean, he is alright and everything, but still not my cup of tea. He only wrote this article for the simple reason as to turn heads and get attention, just like everything else he does. Just my 2 cents.

-S

Why can't he just ******* and run down the road singing tra-la-la...if he wants attention....like everyone else does.

You were given several friendly requests and a warning to avoid vulgar language, provoking members, and sending obscene private messages. When I got in tonight, there were 3 PMs from different people, all with complaints about your obscene language to them. Find another sandbox to play in.

Neal Stevens
Subsim Admin
Does this mean I may safely take him off the ignore list, then? :lol:

[Subnuts]

You were given several friendly requests and a warning to avoid vulgar language, provoking members, and sending obscene private messages. When I got in tonight, there were 3 PMs from different people, all with complaints about your obscene language to them. Find another sandbox to play in.

Neal Stevens
Subsim Admin

Ehhh... no real loss. :rotfl:

[Takeda Shingen]

Now I ask you, as does The Conservative Voice, where are the Christians?

Simply stated, the political force of the United States is run by special interest. There are three very powerful lobbies in the US: The evangelical Christian lobby, the pro-Israeli lobby, and the oil lobby. The evangelicals have alligned themselves with the Israeli lobby on social issues, and are not likely to speak out against the actions of the IDF. So, criticism of Israel is very much in the same state as the chance of any meaningful alternative energy research: Not likely until special interest can be curbed, and the people can once again regain their voices.

[Skybird]

Now I ask you, as does The Conservative Voice, where are the Christians?

Simply stated, the political force of the United States is run by special interest. There are three very powerful lobbies in the US: The evangelical Christian lobby, the pro-Israeli lobby, and the oil lobby.
There is at least a fourth strong lobby: the defense lobby.

[scandium]

Scandium,

Thatn is no answer. You should tell us how to acchieve the objecives in the first paragraph of your quote, instead you tell us that becasue of the second paragraph (with some questionable content) we are not allowed to acchieve the objectives of the first paragraph.

So I repeat the question: how to reduce the armed capacity of two terror organizations, how to hinder them to strike at Israel and sending suicide bombers and missiles into Israeli cities, and preferrably keep them away from Israeli borders and reduce their striking potential to meaningless terms? You only tell us what we should not do, so what should we do?

*shrug* I did. I think you are merely paying me back now for insisting you post your solution to the "Islam dilemna", which you never did ... so tough. :p

[scandium]

Now I ask you, as does The Conservative Voice, where are the Christians?
Simply stated, the political force of the United States is run by special interest. There are three very powerful lobbies in the US: The evangelical Christian lobby, the pro-Israeli lobby, and the oil lobby. There is at least a fourth strong lobby: the defense lobby.
Eisenhower's famous warning on this:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

[Skybird]

No, you did not. How do we reduce the striking potential of Hisbollah, and it's attacks on Israel that are going on since many years, killing plenty of civilians and declaring that a holy cause? You only tell us how we should not do it. What is your alternative?

And while you ask where the Christians are to stop what is going on and to help, I asked myself the same when reading again about Somalia today. May i lease your words:

I couldn't resist posting this article, because the title alone brought instantly to mind all of the numerous threads here on the wrongs done to us by Islamic Jihadists, and always with at least one post lamenting the fact that the Muslims can't seem to control their own expansion Fair enough. Now I ask you, where are the Christians?


[quote]Alert at Somali Islamist advance

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41872000/jpg/_41872372_technical203bap.jpg The Islamists control much of southern Somalia

Heavily armed militia loyal to Somalia's Islamic courts have arrived in Burhakaba, a town 60km from the base of the interim government in Baidoa.
Somalia's interim prime minister says it is clear the Islamists, who control the capital, plan to advance on Baidoa.
"The national security forces are on high alert," Ali Mohamed Ghedi said.
The leader of the Islamist gunmen in Burhakaba told the BBC that there were no such plans and that the aim was to bring Islamic Sharia law to the region.
"This development could lead to more Somali bloodshed. It is a provocation and violation of areas under control of the government," Mr Ghedi said
His comments came as 150 government troops are reported to have defected to the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC).
Ethiopia, which supports the weak transitional government, has said it will intervene with force if UIC forces attack Baidoa.
Observers believe it is only a matter of time before the two sides clash.

Derail talks
The BBC's Mohammed Olad Hassan says that as the courts militia advanced on Burhakana, they dismantled road blocks run by militia who were extorting money from passing motorists.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41907000/gif/_41907426_somalia_burhak_map203.gif

Eyewitnesses reported seeing the Islamists entering the town with 10 armed pick-up trucks, known as battle wagons, he says.
Observers fear the latest move may derail efforts to organise talks between the government and UIC which were due to start last weekend.
Earlier this week, Islamist leader Sheikh Sherif Sheikh Ahmed denied reports that the UIC was planning to attack Baidoa, 200km from Mogadishu.
He was quoted as saying that they wanted to work with "whoever wants to return peace to Somalia".
Some fear that Somalia could descend into renewed conflict between the UIC and the government, possibly involving regional and international players.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif
Ethiopia, which is seen as close to the government, repeated its accusations that Eritrea is arming the UIC.
The UIC has accused Ethiopia of already sending troops to Baidoa but both governments have repeatedly denied such claims.
The International Contact Group was set up by the US after the Islamists seized Mogadishu last month.

'Porn film crackdown'
Meanwhile in Mogadishu, at least 14 people including a woman have been arrested for watching what Islamists say was a "pornographic" film.
"They were watching a sexual film, which is forbidden in Islam" said Sheikh Dahir Shiekhow, chairman of the court in the area.
The film, being shown at a local cinema, had scenes of nudity.
"At least 20 armed militia with a Toyota pick-up car mounted with a machine-gun arrived where we watched film; they ordered us not to move and then arrested us," said Mohamed Ade, who was released on Wednesday afternoon. Mr Shiekhow said most the detainees had been released after being warned not to watch such films again. The Islamists, which have brought some form of law and order to areas under their control after 15 years of anarchy, believe that Sharia law is the only solution to Somalia's problems.

[Skybird]

Now I ask you, as does The Conservative Voice, where are the Christians?
Simply stated, the political force of the United States is run by special interest. There are three very powerful lobbies in the US: The evangelical Christian lobby, the pro-Israeli lobby, and the oil lobby. There is at least a fourth strong lobby: the defense lobby.
Eisenhower's famous warning on this:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

His industrial-complex-farewell-speech, if I remember correctly. I refered to that myself 12-18 months ago, and got bashed from all sides. Beware!

[VipertheSniper]

Scandium,

Thatn is no answer. You should tell us how to acchieve the objecives in the first paragraph of your quote, instead you tell us that becasue of the second paragraph (with some questionable content) we are not allowed to acchieve the objectives of the first paragraph.

So I repeat the question: how to reduce the armed capacity of two terror organizations, how to hinder them to strike at Israel and sending suicide bombers and missiles into Israeli cities, and preferrably keep them away from Israeli borders and reduce their striking potential to meaningless terms? You only tell us what we should not do, so what should we do?

Have they declared war on Libanon? I guess so...

I just hope they are already preparing for an invasion of the south of Libanon, to search and destroy the rockets with infantry and tanks rather than bombs that kill indiscriminantly. That is in my opinion the only viable temporary solution.

For Palestine: To forgive and forget, ON BOTH SIDES, what has happened in the past, and finally sit down at the table to negotiate. That means no more, my way or the highway politics from both sides. If they could finally get that in their dickheads... TAAADAAA PEACE! or something along those lines.

[Iceman]

The blame game huh?....Where are the Muslims?....Who is going to put there dogs back on thier leash?...I personally liked Avon Ladys solution....why were these soldiers not returned?...try having them returned and see what happens...what a novel idea.We all know this will not happen so it will escalate and the bigger dog will eat the little one it is that simple.This threads header is a who started it kind of thread and it is pointless...who started it ???

Does it even matter anymore...does there even need to be a reason anymore? Muslims ,Jews , and Christians have been at each others throats for thousands of years now...you act like it is something new Scandium it is the same song.

People get tired of being oppressed and starving and killed and people push back it doesnt matter what side you are on you know this.Where are the Christians?...where are the Muslim leaders who can send the captured soldiers home...you don't want to touch that question though do ya?

[scandium]

Does it even matter anymore...does there even need to be a reason anymore? Muslims ,Jews , and Christians have been at each others throats for thousands of years now...you act like it is something new Scandium it is the same song.

Quite the contrary, I do not act like it is anything new.


People get tired of being oppressed and starving and killed and people push back it doesnt matter what side you are on you know this.

Indeed I do.

Where are the Christians?...where are the Muslim leaders who can send the captured soldiers home...you don't want to touch that question though do ya?

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?

[SUBMAN1]

Does it even matter anymore...does there even need to be a reason anymore? Muslims ,Jews , and Christians have been at each others throats for thousands of years now...you act like it is something new Scandium it is the same song.
Quite the contrary, I do not act like it is anything new.


People get tired of being oppressed and starving and killed and people push back it doesnt matter what side you are on you know this.
Indeed I do.

Where are the Christians?...where are the Muslim leaders who can send the captured soldiers home...you don't want to touch that question though do ya?
What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S

[scandium]

What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S

You couldn't have even read the article, any of it, beyond the headline, or you wouldn't even be asking that. Read the article and you will see yourself how silly your accusation that I have some sort of an "anti-christian" agenda is (which the article I linked to is in no way shape or form). :roll:

Please, if you're going to call me a heretic and start the inquisition, then at least do me the curtesy of actually reading your alleged evidence first that proves that I am the anti-christ :lol:

[Sea Demon]

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S
Thank God the agenda for sale ain't selling.

[scandium]

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S
Thank God the agenda for sale ain't selling.

Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:

[NeonSamurai]

Ooo tempting to comment on that last sentance, but ill be good :)

[Sea Demon]

Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:

A mind full of Michael Moore and Internet conspiracy theories is a shame. Sometimes the minority opinion is the minority view for a reason. Most likely because it lacks any semblance of reality. People hear you, they just aren't buying. ;)

[scandium]

Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:
A mind full of Michael Moore and Internet conspiracy theories is a shame. Sometimes the minority opinion is the minority view for a reason. Most likely because it lacks any semblance of reality. People hear you, they just aren't buying. ;)
And what do you think it is I'm selling? You'd be hard pressed to find anything I've stated here based, or linked to, either Michael Moore or internet conspiracy theory because I've never done that.

First I'm a heretic then I'm an internet conspiracy nut eh? You really are fishing.

[SUBMAN1]

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S
Thank God the agenda for sale ain't selling.
Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:

Has nothing to do with that. But you try and twist it that way anyway, but no ones buying. The simple fact is, you have an article that you can't defend, and it is along the same lines of other threads you have posted in in which you also failed to defend this same idea, yet you continue your twist of incorrect fact in the face of overwhelming logic. You have gone beyond weak mind and character of yourself by beating a dead horse with only pride (and hidden agenda) as your only fight left - and this is after you have lost, and everyone is just standing around watching you make a fool of yourself.

The funny part is the article you are taking from is from a man with an agenda of his own that my family has met one on one personally! It is strictly a politcal motivated article! Attack Bush allows you to sway democratic votes to your side. We like Buchanan since he upsets the party vote, but that is all we like him for.

I am sorry, i am about to start laughing, but I will keep my composure. The attack on Bush also pathetic since all evidence is to the contrary! He hits the press room all the time with frothing press people ready to tear him up! Too funny! The only people he won't meet is the NAACP, which I wouldn't either if they associated the dragging of a black man, and his subsequent death as related to me in some way.

But, by all means, please continue since this is getting rather entertaining...:|\\ I'll just stand on the sidelines to watch what happens like everyone else! I'm sure the slinging tomatoes will continue to pummel you.

-S

PS. One thing of note, you have entered into a forum where the party line is never the path followed. You are surrounded by people who all have their own opinions and they all have their own original thoughts. But you can keep billing it some other way if you want since it makes little difference.

PPS. Sorry for being so harsh, but I am just calling it like I see it.

[scandium]

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S
Thank God the agenda for sale ain't selling.
Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:
Has nothing to do with that. But you try and twist it that way anyway, but no ones buying.
You know you keep throwing around this "it and "that" but nothing I can read in what you've quoted refers to whatever it is that I'm supposed to be selling, other than that whatever it is its supposedly related to Michael Moore, internet conspiracy theories, and the anti-christ. Maybe I'm not trying to sell anything, maybe you just forgot to take your medication today ;)

The simple fact is, you have an article that you can't defend, and it is along the same lines of other threads you have posted in in which you also failed to defend this same idea, yet you continue your twist of incorrect fact in the face of overwhelming logic.
Defend it against what? Nobody's even read the article so what is it I'm supposed to defend?

You have gone beyond weak mind and character of yourself by beating a dead horse with only pride (and hidden agenda) as your only fight left - and this is after you have lost, and everyone is just standing around watching you make a fool of yourself.
See above. And I'm not the one beating a dead horse, given that wiuthout even reading the article the thread is about, you never the less saw fit to hijack the thread to berate me on this supposed agenda which you can't even seem to pin down (perhaps because it isn't there). My impression of you so far, just in this thread, is that you are so hysterically fearful of whatever the article might contain that rather than simply debate the merits of it, you instead try and discredit it by shooting the messenger. Yet I have the weak mind?

The funny part is the article you are taking from is from a man with an agenda of his own that my family has met one on one personally! It is strictly a politcal motivated article! Which you haven't even read.

Attack Bush allows you to sway democratic votes to your side. We like Buchanan since he upsets the party vote, but that is all we like him for. Okay now you're just coming completely unglued. As I am not American, I have no "side" to sway votes to; And I poke fun at Bush from time to time because, believe it or not, he's a bit of a laughing stock outside the US and a lot of us foreigners make fun of him. And in a way, its his own fault: I used to laugh at Baghdad Bob as he is by far the funnier of the two, but now there is no longer a Baghdad Bob to laugh at so I have to settle for Bush.

I am sorry, i am about to start laughing, but I will keep my composure. The attack on Bush also pathetic since all evidence is to the contrary! He hits the press room all the time with frothing press people ready to tear him up! Too funny!Its good to know I am not the only one laughing at this exchange, because the idea of Bush taking really confrontational questions in a Parlimentary style debate just cracks me up. I have seen your Washington press in action and the word that comes to mind to me is actually "docile". :lol: Trained puppies afraid to lob anything heavier than softballs lest they embarass the Pres and get shut out of further access to him.

The only people he won't meet is the NAACP, which I wouldn't either if they associated the dragging of a black man, and his subsequent death as related to me in some way. No idea what you're talking about here.

But, by all means, please continue since this is getting rather entertaining...:|\\ I'll just stand on the sidelines to watch what happens like everyone else! I'm sure the slinging tomatoes will continue to pummel you. *shrug* I put out my point of view and if I get some good debate out of it, and I usually do, then that's all I'm interested in. As to slinging tomatoes, I could care less. Fire away.

[Skybird]

You are too convinced of your article, Scandium. You assume that everyone reading it must see it that way. And if someone does not see it that way and does not agree, then he hasn'T red it. The possebility that people, or me, have red it, but simply are not only not convinced, but turned away by it's suggestive language and massively biased direction does not seem to be on your mind.

You also have defined WHAT goal Israel may go for, but told us only HOW it may NOT do so - we still wait for the answer HOW it should go for it instead. Is this another question you will not answer - while holding others guilty of ignoring your questions for whom answers has been given since long, and often repeatedly? Don't tell us what restricts Israel - tell us what it should do to get rid of the threat by Palestinian terror.

Simple truth is - you don't like what is going on right now. Same for me. But you do not have a realistic alternative to offer that goes beyond the heart-warming daydreaming of the UN and the EU and that could work not only in dreams, but in the grim world that we have. The only world.

[jumpy]

You also have defined WHAT goal Israel may go for, but told us only HOW it may NOT do so - we still wait for the answer HOW it should go for it instead. Is this another question you will not answer - while holding others guilty of ignoring your questions for whom answers has been given since long, and often repeatedly? Don't tell us what restricts Israel - tell us what it should do to get rid of the threat by Palestinian terror.

Simple truth is - you don't like what is going on right now. Same for me. But you do not have a realistic alternative to offer that goes beyond the heart-warming daydreaming of the UN and the EU and that could work not only in dreams, but in the grim world that we have. The only world.
Well I'm sure if Scandium (or anyone else for that matter) had the 'final solution' -perhaps a bad turn of prase there :roll: I shall rephrase - or the ultimate answer to all of the troubles in the ME/Israel/Palestine etc then he wouldn't be sitting here endlessly debating the issue with you lot.
Imho I think punnishing the majority for the misdeeds of the apparent few is a totaly BS way to achieve a peaceful resolution the the current debacle - that's all well and good when attempting to control an unruly classroom full of kids hehe, but in that instance nobody is going to get blown up by a 5oolb laser guided bomb, are they?

hello, pot? this is kettle...

Pffft, asside from bludgeoning civillians with artillery and air to ground missiles and bombs, and breaking international law prohibiting the targeting of essential civillian infrastructure and carrying out the threat to turn the clock back 20 years in Lebanon, what is the IDF doing right?
Sadly I have no more idea on how to realistically solve the problem which has been festering away over there for decades and longer, than any of the rest of you people. Does that mean I should just forget about it, sweep it under the carpet away from consideration and the light of day? Resign the issue to parriah status only worthy only of distain and ridicule should anybody see fit to instigate discussion, regardless of merrit? No.

The article itself (at least to me) did not seem overly pedantic or selfrightious; unlike some of the posts appearing here :rotfl::arrgh!:

[scandium]

I'll post my reply to the questions asked of me with what I just said in another thread; and I'll preface it by adding that this is no "agenda", this is simple disgust at the treatment of Canadians by a supposed "friend" and "ally" of ours:

Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers. Israel retaliates by levelling Lebanon without warning or consideration for the tens of thousands of foreign nationals there who its actions, in bombing ports, roads, bridges, and the international airport have cut off from escaping the country - for a week - that they have turned into a warzone, killing 8 Canadian civillians in the process and severely injuring several others. By their own standards, this is an act of war against Canada, and an act of callous disregard by any standard.

But is Canada mobilizing for an all out war with Israel in kind, or even any kind of relatiation? No, we are just trying our best - within the limits imposed upon us by Israel and the IDF - to get our people out. Our own PM even diverted his own military A330 Airbus to Cypress to pick up as many stranded Canadian refugees as possible.

Meanwhile the US has finally landed 1,200 marines into Lebanon to get its own people out - all of this a week after events began, events that - without warning of any kind - turned our citizens into trapped refugees who are at the mercy of the IDF.

Meanwhile 500 German nationals are being evacuated to Syria.

You know, I don't have the solution to what Israel should do, but unlike you folks I'm not going to applaud this callous treatment, and killings, of my own fellow Canadians whose only fault was unknowingly being in a place Israel decided without warning to level, trapping them there in the process and putting their lives at risk as it bombed and shelled the country with them in it.

While I applaud my PM's personal efforts to get some of our people out, I find our government's otherwise apparent apathy and indifference to Israel's conduct disgusting. I no longer consider Israel any ally of ours because you don't treat your friends and allies this way.

And for you August, it is even more ironic given that its your own country's weapons and $3 billion/year subsidy to Israel that is being used to hold your citizens hostage in a foreign country turned warzone by the IDF. And not even a heads up to your embassy in Lebanon before hand so that you might get your people out first; no, instead the warning comes in the form of the bombing of the International airport trapping them there.

That the US has to send 1,200 Marines in a week later to rescue its people from the threat posed to them by one of its, supposedly, close allies and puppet states doesn't bother you August.

Personally I see this and I have to wonder which country is really the puppet state, and which country - just like its citizens - is the one held hostage to events of the other's making.

So to come back to your question about a solution to Israel's problem - why should I give a damn about them or their problems when they so blatantly could give a damn about Canadians when only just this week the IDF killed 8 of them? I don't, not any more. The hell with them as far as I'm concerned.

[Skybird]

Joea,

You cannot hit and hurt an enemy that uses the civilian infrastructure to hide and to move - without hitting that civilian infrastructure. A ammo depot in the backroom of a little store or restaurant - a fighter'S hideout beside a school, bridges and electricity that he uses as well as the civilian population - these are the reasons why this enemy is labelled as terrorist, inseads of regular army (ignoring the fact the the Israelis accept to hit civilians when going for their enemy, while the terrorist delibertaly chooses to hit the civilian population with full intention). It's a dilemma, and the only choices there are: to tolerate terrorist organization and getting assaulted by them becauses of that tolerance until the end of time, or to accept to inflict civilian casualties as well while going for them. Such is war with one enemy hiding in civilian infrastructure.

[Skybird]

Scandium,

I do not applaude this fighting. Get that into your head: i do not applaude it, and I do not like it, but I see no alternative. Since the beginning of the second intifada, more than 1100 Israelis civilians had been murdered by missiles and suicide bombers, the overwhelming majoirty by the latter. Israel is suffering from ongoing massive terror on a regular basis for years - this is the reason why finally, after having had patience for years, they take the two missing soldiers as an excuse now to finally, FINALLY, reach out with all force and power. They also do not want to negotiate with those that are responsible for the massmurder amongst Israelis in recent years.

I do not like all this, but I see no alternative to fighting when fighting is force upon you by an enemy without moral standards and ethical founded self-restrictions, but who is cynical enough to hide himself within civilian structures in the hope that this would prevent his opponent to shoot at him. This time this enemy obviously has been wrong. the Lebanese are suffering because of Hizbollah's ignorrance for their vital interests, and Iran's and Syria's desinterest as well.

[scandium]

Scandium,

I do not applaude this fighting. Get that into your head: i do not applaude it, and I do not like it, but I see no alternative. Since the beginning of the second intifada, more than 1100 Israelis civilians had been murdered by missiles and suicide bombers. Israel is suffering from ongoing massive terror on a regular basis for years - this is the reason why finally, after having had patience for years, they take the two missing soldiers as an excuse now to finally, FINALLY, reach out with all force and power. Theyx also do not want to negotiate with those that are responsible for the massmurder amongst Israelis in recent years.

I do not like all this, but I see no alternative to fighting when fighting is force dupon you by an enemy without moral standards and ethical, restrictions and cynical enough to hide himself within civilian structures in the hope that this would prevent his opponent to shoot at him. This time this enemy obviously has been wrong. the Lebanse are suffering because of Hizbollah's ignorrance for their vital interests, and Iran's and Syria's desinterest as well. The ordinary people - are pawns in a game only.
Its not only the Lebanese who are suffering as a result of Israel's actions. Consider this dry timeline and the effect on those citizens of the most powerful country in the world which is suddenly paralyzed and embarassed by its own puppet state in what becomes the biggest exodus of US nationals from foreign soil since the Vietnam war:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/15068159.htm


Following is a timeline of the U.S. government's efforts to evacuate Americans from Lebanon:

July 12 - Hezbollah gunmen kill three Israeli soldiers and kidnap two. Israeli forces retaliate by pounding Lebanon. Beirut International Airport is bombed. The U.S. Embassy in Lebanon urges Americans to review their security and travel plans.

July 13 - The embassy urges American citizens to avoid nonessential travel in Lebanon.

July 14 - The embassy authorizes the families of embassy staff members and non-emergency American employees to leave. It urges Americans in Lebanon to evaluate their security and consider departing, and it advises those who remain to keep low profiles and vary times and routes for all required travel.

July 15 - The embassy announces that it's working with the Department of Defense on a plan to help American citizens depart Lebanon through the island nation of Cyprus. The State Department reminds Americans that it doesn't provide free transportation for evacuees, but says it's authorized to provide repatriation loans to those in financial need.

July 16 - U.S. Marine Corps helicopters begin ferrying small numbers of Americans from the embassy compound north of Beirut to Cyprus.

July 17 - The Pentagon announces that it's contracted a Greek cruise ship, the Orient Queen, escorted by an American destroyer, to evacuate Americans from Lebanon. There are an estimated 25,000 Americans in Lebanon; the ship can carry 750 passengers.

July 18 - The embassy announces that it's "monitoring the situation in Lebanon closely" and "reviewing all options" for assisting Americans who want to leave. The embassy says further information will be released by the media and in embassy announcements and warden messages. Americans who wish to depart are told that they should prepare passports and other important travel documents, including birth certificates, marriage certificates and medical records. Those who leave will be allowed one small suitcase.

The Pentagon announces that nine other Navy vessels, additional helicopters and a Saudi Arabian cruise ship will join the evacuation. The State Department announces plans to evacuate more than 2,400 Americans by sea and air. At least 5,000 are expected to leave.

So if you're an American living in Lebanon, four days after Israel begins pounding Lebanon, you have two choices: Leave everything you own behind except that which you can carry in one suitcase, or remain in Lebanon and pray the Israeli Defence Force doesn't kill you in one of their bombing raids. Not that this should be a difficult choice to make, but its a little ironic that you have to make this choice when its your tax dollars that are financing the Israeli demolition of your home (hopefully without you in) and belongings, and the half baked measures that makes this necessary because Israel could care less since it gets its 3 billion/year subsidy and US veto in the UN no matter what it does, or who it victimizes. And to my mind, these Americans in Lebanon are victims, and it isn't the Lebanese government or people that are terrorizing and displacing them from their homes, either. Because to Israel, if this treatment is good enough for Palestinians, its good enough for Americans too. :up: (and everyone else).

[joea]

Joea,

You cannot hit and hurt an enemy that uses the civilian infrastructure to hide and to move - without hitting that civilian infrastructure. A ammo depot in the backroom of a little store or restaurant - a fighter'S hideout beside a school, bridges and electricity that he uses as well as the civilian population - these are the reasons why this enemy is labelled as terrorist, inseads of regular army (ignoring the fact the the Israelis accept to hit civilians when going for their enemy, while the terrorist delibertaly chooses to hit the civilian population with full intention). It's a dilemma, and the only choices there are: to tolerate terrorist organization and getting assaulted by them becauses of that tolerance until the end of time, or to accept to inflict civilian casualties as well while going for them. Such is war with one enemy hiding in civilian infrastructure.

Actually have not posted on this thread yet, but yes I was worried and am heartbroken by what is happening. I fully understand what war is about and realise there is no way to eliminate civilian casualties. I do question whether this method will obtain the required results and was necessary. I think eventually Isreal will negotiate with Hezzbola and Hamas. They are major political players whether we like it or not. As to the issues of terror groups using civilian infrastructure to hide and work in...well what else is new? Guerrilla and like movements have done this for ages.

[Takeda Shingen]

There is at least a fourth strong lobby: the defense lobby.

Being that the military is under the direct ownership and operation of the federal government, it can hardly be considered a third-party interest group. However, I do take your point on high military spending.

[Skybird]

There is at least a fourth strong lobby: the defense lobby.

Being that the military is under the direct ownership and operation of the federal government, it can hardly be considered a third-party interest group. However, I do take your point on high military spending.
I think the relations between the Pentagon and the defense industry are bit more complicated than that. But that is another can of worms.

[bradclark1]

I think eventually Isreal will negotiate with Hezzbola and Hamas.
I think that will happen when pigs fly.

[SUBMAN1]

What makes you think any of the Muslim leaders could?
What I see is you pull some anti christian thing that is complete crap, and you then have an argument and boil over that argument and continue that argument by avoiding the questions and answers to those questions. So what gives? And, to top it off, you keep doing it over and over, regardless that people give you logical answers to your questions in return. Seems to me that you have some sort of agenda. Care to share with the rest of us?

-S
Thank God the agenda for sale ain't selling.
Agreed. The results when one airs an opinion contrary to the dominant one is a very real threat to a fragile mind or weak character. This is why the current U.S. President surrounds himself with sycophants, appears only before pre-selected audiences composed only of the party faithful, and doesn't read newspapers. :up:
Has nothing to do with that. But you try and twist it that way anyway, but no ones buying.
You know you keep throwing around this "it and "that" but nothing I can read in what you've quoted refers to whatever it is that I'm supposed to be selling, other than that whatever it is its supposedly related to Michael Moore, internet conspiracy theories, and the anti-christ. Maybe I'm not trying to sell anything, maybe you just forgot to take your medication today ;)

The simple fact is, you have an article that you can't defend, and it is along the same lines of other threads you have posted in in which you also failed to defend this same idea, yet you continue your twist of incorrect fact in the face of overwhelming logic.
Defend it against what? Nobody's even read the article so what is it I'm supposed to defend?

You have gone beyond weak mind and character of yourself by beating a dead horse with only pride (and hidden agenda) as your only fight left - and this is after you have lost, and everyone is just standing around watching you make a fool of yourself.
See above. And I'm not the one beating a dead horse, given that wiuthout even reading the article the thread is about, you never the less saw fit to hijack the thread to berate me on this supposed agenda which you can't even seem to pin down (perhaps because it isn't there). My impression of you so far, just in this thread, is that you are so hysterically fearful of whatever the article might contain that rather than simply debate the merits of it, you instead try and discredit it by shooting the messenger. Yet I have the weak mind?

The funny part is the article you are taking from is from a man with an agenda of his own that my family has met one on one personally! It is strictly a politcal motivated article! Which you haven't even read.

Attack Bush allows you to sway democratic votes to your side. We like Buchanan since he upsets the party vote, but that is all we like him for. Okay now you're just coming completely unglued. As I am not American, I have no "side" to sway votes to; And I poke fun at Bush from time to time because, believe it or not, he's a bit of a laughing stock outside the US and a lot of us foreigners make fun of him. And in a way, its his own fault: I used to laugh at Baghdad Bob as he is by far the funnier of the two, but now there is no longer a Baghdad Bob to laugh at so I have to settle for Bush.

I am sorry, i am about to start laughing, but I will keep my composure. The attack on Bush also pathetic since all evidence is to the contrary! He hits the press room all the time with frothing press people ready to tear him up! Too funny!Its good to know I am not the only one laughing at this exchange, because the idea of Bush taking really confrontational questions in a Parlimentary style debate just cracks me up. I have seen your Washington press in action and the word that comes to mind to me is actually "docile". :lol: Trained puppies afraid to lob anything heavier than softballs lest they embarass the Pres and get shut out of further access to him.

The only people he won't meet is the NAACP, which I wouldn't either if they associated the dragging of a black man, and his subsequent death as related to me in some way. No idea what you're talking about here.

But, by all means, please continue since this is getting rather entertaining...:|\\ I'll just stand on the sidelines to watch what happens like everyone else! I'm sure the slinging tomatoes will continue to pummel you. *shrug* I put out my point of view and if I get some good debate out of it, and I usually do, then that's all I'm interested in. As to slinging tomatoes, I could care less. Fire away.

blah blah blah blah. Obviously you don't even take in what I say, and when I talk about the NAACP, I give you an example to your own arguments, and like with everybody else, your own arguments disappear in smoke when its purely convenient! Nice. What am I talking to here? Someone who has amnesia on comand when it suits his purpose? Seems I missed a lot since I've been gone.

I mean, what does not living in America have to with.. for example? And, when your entire conversation revolves around a man, and then you discount that that is what your conversation is about when its convenient....time to switch back to christians! oh! Time to switch back to Bush!....

The list is endless. your entire reply is all nonsense! :lol:

I even see more anti scandium threads popping up! :lol: Now why could that be?

-S

PS. Maybe I'll go make one of my own.

PPS. You and Kerry would get along real good - always switching sides!