Is this the beginning...

[mapuc]

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

[Torplexed]

NOOOOOO! I can take Bruce Willis, but not Ben Affleck

I knew there was a reason why they got the shuttle working again recently.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000G3PA.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif

[TteFAboB]

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.

But there's no armageddon without nukes, in the movie or in the middle east, and none of the players involved have a nuke, hehe.

[bradclark1]

No, but it will be interesting to see if it draws insurgents away from Iraq. :hmm:

[August]

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.

Agreed but Liv Tyler is mega hot in that movie. Oh to be that animal cracker!

[scandium]

But there's no armageddon without nukes, in the movie or in the middle east, and none of the players involved have a nuke, hehe.

Israel has nukes. Not officially, but never the same the matter of them possessing them is something there is little doubt over. They probably don't have anything of the ICBM variety, but from their location you don't ICBMs to flatten the middle east.

Personally I'm a little concerned, just in the geo-political sense for the purpose of this thread, with the escalating situation there. Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure. However, I'm seeing (I may elaborate on this later if nobody else does first) signs that it may expand to include Syria and possibly even Iran (much less likely but I'll get into that later too).

Could this become another 6 day war? Doubtful, Israel is not the new nation it was then and is far stronger while the other players have grown relatively weaker and more fractious, so a repeat wouldn't even last 6 days. The only broader threat lies in the Western powers or Pakistan becoming involved in the conflict, and this I think is a possibly (a small one, but possible) if it were to extend in earnesr (ie: all out war) to Syria and Iran. But who knows, probably it is nothing more than the usual ME jousting. :hmm:

[scandium]

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.
Agreed but Liv Tyler is mega hot in that movie. Oh to be that animal cracker!

Do yourself a favour and "rent/buy" One Night at McCool's; its a half decent movie anyway, but in it she sets the sexual godess standard. :up: :rock:

[August]

Agreed. Ben Affleck should be donated for dissection to the Martians.
Agreed but Liv Tyler is mega hot in that movie. Oh to be that animal cracker!
Do yourself a favour and "rent/buy" One Night at McCool's; its a half decent movie anyway, but in it she sets the sexual godess standard. :up: :rock:

I've already seen it. Unfortunately she's an evil sex goddess in that movie. Broke my heart it did...

[SUBMAN1]

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

Nope - read revelation - a lot of crap hasn't happened yet

[Oberon]

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

Nope - read revelation - a lot of crap hasn't happened yet

Don't worry, they're working on it ;)

[The Avon Lady]

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure.
More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"? :nope:

[SUBMAN1]

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure.
More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.

Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"? :nope:

I'm all for it. I hope Isreal levels the entire area!

-S

[aaken]

I'm really sorry to desagree, but giving my OWN and personal opinion and from a lawyer (as I am) perspective I don't see any point about invading and bombing an indipendent country (Lebanon), as it is absolutely against all the basic international law principles.

Lebanon may be an independent country but either cannot or does not want to stop Hezbollah from firing rockets at Israel. Israel just happens to defend itself against attacks from abroad. IMO they should attack Syria as well, if they have proof that Damascus is supporting Hezbollah.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

It could easily be the beginning of another widescale war.

i agree... as a matter of fact, that was the second thought to run through my mind when i heard of the escalating military actions in the region... this is potentially more serious than a lot of people seem imagine...

fragile and non formal alignments spread across national boundaries, the proliferation of not only nuclear, but biological weapons and other weapons of mass destructive capabilities... add to that the tenuous command and control that exists, plus the obvious rising tensions in the far east...

this may well be the flashpoint that could start the dominoes tumbling...



anyway... my best wishes to all on the forum who are in the region... stay safe and try to remain out
of harm's way...

where is our young female soldier... is she alright...

--Mike

[STEED]

....of armageddon, that we are witness to, in the middle east??

Markus

Not yet, certain things must be in place and that's another matter.

Well we all shall see how this one pans out and the long term outcome.

[basilio]

I'm really sorry to desagree, but giving my OWN and personal opinion and from a lawyer (as I am) perspective I don't see any point about invading and bombing an indipendent country (Lebanon), as it is absolutely against all the basic international law principles.

Lebanon may be an independent country but either cannot or does not want to stop Hezbollah from firing rockets at Israel. Israel just happens to defend itself against attacks from abroad. IMO they should attack Syria as well, if they have proof that Damascus is supporting Hezbollah.

If my memory serves me well, the International Court of Justice, in the Military and para-military activities in and against Nicaragua case, had the opportunity to stress that the invasion of an indipendent country (that time was from the US), even if justified for "humanitarian reason", is absolutely against the international law.
Same principle apply to the so called "prevention war", i.e. start a war to prevent an attack to your country.

[aaken]

IMO this cannot be classified as preventive war.
Hezbollah has been firing rockets at Israel for quite some time and Israeli soldiers have been kidnapped. This, in my book, is an hostile aggression and one way to face an hostile aggression is through military force. Moreover, if there is proof that foreign states (like Iran and Syria) are supporting Hezbollah in their attack on Israel, this would make them equally responsible of the attacks and, IMO, legitimate targets.

[Skybird]

The risk that this spreads is still low, imo, as long as Hizbollah does not come up with a new weaponry that does really serious damage to Israeli cities. The two strikes on Haifa and - what was that other city? - may be a hint in that direction, or not, who knows.

I think what they really are after is to create a situation where they must not risk of needing to negotiate with a terrorist organisation in government. I think Israel currently is not willing to attack Syria in an all-out war, nor does Syria wish to be drawn into a war with Israel - they know their equipment is too obsolete to have a chance against the IDF. Iran does not want to attract any further hostile attraction, so thta it can complete it'S nuclear program untouched, and in silence. Currently I think it is most likely that sooner or later this hot issue cools down, and the soldiers (which are no longer the real cause) will return. secret diplomacy is currently on way, Israel has contacted both Iran and Syria via Germany.

If the situation remains hot while Hizbollah demonstrates the ability to strike Israeli city with missiles of this new kind like Haifa and that second city, it is possible that Israel will occupy more or less of Lebanon and tries to annihilate it (the Hezbollah, not Lebanon - there is not much left anyway). If that can be successful must be doubted.

But for the most it all is about avoiding negotations with a Hamas-led government. Olmert also seems to have left a prime directive of Israel, which in the past was to accept prisoner exchanges on the ratio of 1 : several hundreds to get back some of it's people. This directive seems to have been given up, or at least put on ice.

No, there most probably will not be a great-scale international war in the ME, currently. Probability for that is less than 5:95, I think.

[The Avon Lady]

The risk that this spreads is still low, imo, as long as Hizbollah does not come up with a new weaponry that does really serious damage to Israeli cities.
Israeli planes succeeded in hitting a Iranian made ZelZal missile (http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/2874/rocketzelzal1fr0.gif) launcher in Beirut yesterday, which, after being hit, flew off the launcher and crashed to the ground. This was initially falsly reported as being a downed Israeli plane.
The two strikes on Haifa and - what was that other city? - may be a hint in that direction, or not, who knows.
Haifa has had plenty more than 2 strikes. Numerous other cities, towns and villages have been hit, including but not limited to Kiryat Shmona, Nahariya, Tzefat (Safed), Meron, Carmiel, Akko etc.

I was listening to the radio today when the air raid sirens went off live in both Haifa and Tzefat. The results (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=107668). Media pictures show that the missiles are filled with metal ball bearings, to maximize human fatalities. This is similar to homicide bomber vests.
I think what they really are after is to create a situation where they must not risk of needing to negotiate with a terrorist organisation in government.
No. Israel has repeated stated what is need to cease hostilities:

1. Our kidnapped soldiers freed unharmed.
2. The removal of any military or terrorist threat from Lebanon.

If they want to have animals and barbarians in their government, so be it, as long as it's their internal problem.
and the soldiers (which are no longer the real cause)
This is 100% false. Simple test: return the soldiers and watch the calming effect.
If the situation remains hot while Hizbollah demonstrates the ability to strike Israeli city with missiles of this new kind like Haifa and that second city, it is possible that Israel will occupy more or less of Lebanon and tries to annihilate it (the Hezbollah, not Lebanon - there is not much left anyway). If that can be successful must be doubted.
Suggested reading: Being Hassan Nasrallah (http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1856).
But for the most it all is about avoiding negotations with a Hamas-led government.
Now we're back to Gaza. As if anyone else in the PA weren't terrorists!
Olmert also seems to have left a prime directive of Israel, which in the past was to accept prisoner exchanges on the ratio of 1 : several hundreds to get back some of it's people. This directive seems to have been given up, or at least put on ice.
It's about time!
No, there most probably will not be a great-scale international war in the ME, currently. Probability for that is less than 5:95, I think.
Agreed. :yep:

[Skybird]

I wrote: "Secret diplomacy is currently on way, Israel has contacted both Iran and Syria via Germany."I wonder if that really is a compliment for Germany. :hmm:

AL,

there were reports here that Haifa was struck by a missile that was no Kassam or anything like they usually throw at you, but a more sophisticated, precise missile from Iranian production. That is what I meant with two major strikes at Haifa and S..... .

What politicians say their motivation is (our soldiers back) and what it really is about (not needing to confernece with Hamas) are two different things. They often are not in congruence. I stick to my assessement.

Hamas is no line-army, but much a guerilla-sewtup. Iraq has shown how successful one can be in fighting such an organisation. History is filled with example where regular armies failed in fighting insurgents, partisas, guerillas - or such factions with a terrorist background. You can shoot Lebanon into pieces. Hamas will still be there. What has changed is that they will hide behind smaller stones. As long as you do not strip Lebanon off all rresidents and population, and then dromb a 1000-pounder onto anything left that moves, you will not wi against Hamas. If there is a lesson to be learned from the constant fighting between Israel and the Palestinians, then this.

[The Avon Lady]

I wrote: "Secret diplomacy is currently on way, Israel has contacted both Iran and Syria via Germany."I wonder if that really is a compliment for Germany. :hmm:
This alone doesn't say anything special about Germany.

[Skybird]

Our timing is badly messed up :smug: I added replies to my previous post.

[The Avon Lady]

there were reports here that Haifa was struck by a missile that was no Kassam or anything like they usually throw at you, but a more sophisticated, precise missile from Iranian production. That is what I meant with two major strikes at Haifa and S.....
Haifa and Safed (Tzefat). That was last week or on Saturday. Apparently a Syrian made Fajr missile. Flip through these (http://info.jpost.com/C006/Supplements/war.images/) for a list of missiles.
What politicians say their motivation is (our soldiers back) and what it really is about (not needing to confernece with Hamas) are two different things. They often are not in congruence. I stick to my assessement.
You're mixing up 2 front, Gaza and Lebanon. (Jet planes flying overhead now). Hamas is running the PA. Hizballah is running Lebanon - into the ground.

Israel's main focus is still the return of its 3 soldiers.
Hamas is no line-army, but much a guerilla-sewtup. Iraq has shown how successful one can be in fighting such an organisation. History is filled with example where regular armies failed in fighting insurgents, partisas, guerillas - or such factions with a terrorist background.
We would have much less of a problem if we fought a war with no holds barred.
You can shoot Lebanon into pieces. Hamas will still be there.
Hizballah.
What has changed is that they will hide behind smaller stones. As long as you do not strip Lebanon off all rresidents and population, and then dromb a 1000-pounder onto anything left that moves, you will not wi against Hamas.
I agree. That's the only way to do it. Israel is not doing that. We gave Hizballah a whole day's warning in advance to pack out of their southern Beirut HQ before we leveled it. We are dumb! :damn: Dumb! :damn: Dumb! :damn:

Ouch! :doh:
If there is a lesson to be learned from the constant fighting between Israel and the Palestinians, then this.
You should be addressing my country's politicians and military. As for me, you are preaching to the converted. ;)

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

hey uber mom... just keep your head down, and those kids safe...

--Mike

[The Avon Lady]

All's well south of Afula, thanks, at least so far.

We were just up north vacationing a week and a half ago. Never would have expected all this to happen.

Been very busy doing volunteer work for an organization I work for that assists victims of terror. We are overswamped. :dead:

[scandium]

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure. More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.
And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments. :roll:


Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"? :nope:
You've done a lovely job of painting a very one-sided view of events there Avon.

Let me see if I can encapsulate the current events in a more balanced nutshell (curtesy of the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

All quotes are taken from that article:

July 12: Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.

However, the troops encounter heavy resistance - eight are killed and two others are injured during fighting with Hezbollah. Israel calls up reserve troops as it pledges a swift and large-scale response to the Hezbollah attack.

Background: Hezbollah was founded in Lebanon in 1982 with the purpose to fight the IDF that at that time, and for 22 years in total, occupied Lebanon. They are considered a legitimate political party in Lebanon, which is a democratic country, and are supported, at least politically if not militarily and finacially (this is disputed) by both Iran and Syria. Of Lebanon's Parliment, the civilian wing of Hezbollah holds 14 out of 128 seats and is responsible for several development and civil service functions - but it does not control the government of Lebanon (half of Lebanon's Parlimentary seats are in fact held by Christians).

Lebanon itself, though still recovering from decades of war and occupation, has been recovering and its probably one of the few democracies in the ME and among the most free (as far as freedom goes in that part of the world). Anyway, this is background.

Summary of July 15th: Lebanese militants launch rockets at an Israel town and outposts; guerillas kidnap two IDF soldiers; ie: a border skirmish conducted by militants without the authorization of the Lebanese government. Israel responds by declaring it an "act" of war and invades Lebanon.


July 13: After a night of Israeli air raids across southern Lebanon, Israeli jets strike the runways at Beirut's international airport in the morning, forcing the airport to close. Reports emerge of significant numbers of civilian casualties in Lebanese towns and villages close to Israeli targets, with at least 35 people reported killed.

As Israel announces an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah will not be allowed to return to its former position along the international border, world powers react to the escalating crisis.

The US president defends Israel's right to defend itself from attack, but France, Russia and the EU are all critical of a "disproportionate" use of force.

As night falls a rocket hits Israel's third-largest city, Haifa, although Hezbollah denies responsibility."

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?

July 14: Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah promises "open war" against Israel after his offices in Beirut are bombed.

The strikes are part of Israel's ongoing operation against targets across Lebanon.

Bridges, roads and fuel depots are hit, with new strikes against Beirut airport. The number of Lebanese civilians killed in the strikes rises above 50, and the crisis continues to concern international powers.

The UN Security Council in an emergency meeting calls for an end to the Israeli operation, saying it is causing the death of innocent civilians.

Iran's president warns that any Israeli attack on Syria, seen as a sponsor of Hezbollah, will provoke a "fierce response".

No stirring of the cauldron that is the Middle East to be seen here, nope. And despite the wishes of the UNSC - the US, UK, France, Germany, and Russia - it is only Israel's right to use the full force of its military to kill Lebanese civilians and destroy the country's infrastructure, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.

July 15:Israel expands its strikes in Lebanon, attacking a large number of targets including, for the first time, the northern port city of Tripoli.

Eighteen Lebanese fleeing a village are killed when their vehicles are struck with missiles on the road to the southern city of Tyre.

The headquarters of Hezbollah are destroyed in southern Beirut.

Hezbollah responds by firing rockets on the town of Tiberias in its deepest attack into Israel so far.

Israel recovers the body of one of four sailors missing after a Hezbollah strike on a navy vessel off the Lebanese coast.

Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa says the Middle East peace process is dead and calls on the UN Security Council to tackle the crisis.

Lebanon's PM says his country is a "disaster zone" and calls for international help.
Speaking ahead of the G8 meeting in St Petersburg , US President George W Bush blames Hezbollah for the crisis and urges Syria to put pressure on the militants.

His host, Russian President Vladimir Putin, is more critical of Israel's massive bombing campaign, saying that the "use of force should be balanced".
For all the ordinance dropped in Isrrael's "massive bombing campaign" they've finally recovered one of their missing soldiers - or rather his body. Yep, this brilliant campaign is yielding the desired results of freeing their kidnapped troops alright.

July 16: Israeli air-raids kill at least 23 people in southern Lebanon, including 16 in the city of Tyre. Seven Canadians of Lebanese origin are killed in a village about 33 miles (50 kilometres) south of Beirut while on a family holiday.

Hezbollah rockets kill eight Israelis in the coastal city of Haifa in the worst attack on Israel since the fighting started.

People living as far south as Tel Aviv are told to be on the alert.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the Haifa attack will have "far-reaching consequences".

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah says the battle against Israel is "just at the beginning".

Iran warns Israel that any attack on Syria would incur "unimaginable losses".
Leaders of the G8 nations meeting in St Petersburg blame extremist forces for the crisis, but call on Israel to end military operations.
Seven dead Canadians, killed by an Israeli bombing raid in a country that was not at war with Israel or with anyone else. By Avon's and Israel's standard of conduct Canada, along with the full might of its NATO allies should reciprocate the favour, shouldn't it Avon? Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours. If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day. However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.

Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.

[The Avon Lady]

Superficially this appears to be just the usual stepped up retaliation against the Palestians, with a bit of a swipe at Lebannon thrown in for good measure. More idiotic rubbish, as usual, from the same dump.
And as usual you feel it necessary to preface your reply to me with unwarranted insults and barbed comments. :roll:

No. It was warranted. :yep:
Israel left every last centimeter of Gaza last summer, at the expense of destroying vibrant communities, expelling 8000 Israelis and rippping apart the country's morale and political system. Since then the Palis have done nothing but lob rockets into Israel town and communities, stock up Gaza with more weapons and munitions than were smuggled in there over the last 40 years, and continually tried infiltrating into Israel to kill our soldiers and citizens.

Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon 6 years ago and foolishly allowed the Iranian and Syrian backed Hazb'Allah to stock 10s of thousands of rockets, kidnap and kill our soliders and fire at them when Iran or Syria need something to distract international pressure on them.

Now, our soldiers are killed and kidnapped by terrorists infiltrating from both Gaza and Lebanon and you stupidly think this is about "retaliation"? :nope:
You've done a lovely job of painting a very one-sided view of events there Avon.

Let me see if I can encapsulate the current events in a more balanced nutshell (curtesy of the BBC):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5179434.stm

All quotes are taken from that article:

July 12: Hezbollah fighters based in southern Lebanon launch Katyusha rockets across the border with Israel, targeting the town of Shlomi and outposts in the Shebaa Farms area.

In a cross-border raid, guerrillas seize two Israeli soldiers before retreating back into Lebanon, insisting on a prisoner exchange and warning against confrontation. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert describes the capture of the soldiers as "an act of war".

In response Israeli planes bomb Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon and troops cross into southern Lebanon for the first time since the military withdrawal of 2000.

However, the troops encounter heavy resistance - eight are killed and two others are injured during fighting with Hezbollah. Israel calls up reserve troops as it pledges a swift and large-scale response to the Hezbollah attack.

Background: Hezbollah was founded in Lebanon in 1982 with the purpose to fight the IDF that at that time, and for 22 years in total, occupied Lebanon. They are considered a legitimate political party in Lebanon, which is a democratic country, and are supported, at least politically if not militarily and finacially (this is disputed) by both Iran and Syria. Of Lebanon's Parliment, the civilian wing of Hezbollah holds 14 out of 128 seats and is responsible for several development and civil service functions - but it does not control the government of Lebanon (half of Lebanon's Parlimentary seats are in fact held by Christians).

Lebanon itself, though still recovering from decades of war and occupation, has been recovering and its probably one of the few democracies in the ME and among the most free (as far as freedom goes in that part of the world). Anyway, this is background.

Summary of July 15th: Lebanese militants launch rockets at an Israel town and outposts; guerillas kidnap two IDF soldiers; ie: a border skirmish conducted by militants without the authorization of the Lebanese government. Israel responds by declaring it an "act" of war and invades Lebanon.
Border skirmishes and kidnapping another country's soldiers are an act of war.

All that quoting for nothing! :roll:

Does it get more exciting than this? Let's see.......................
July 13: After a night of Israeli air raids across southern Lebanon, Israeli jets strike the runways at Beirut's international airport in the morning, forcing the airport to close. Reports emerge of significant numbers of civilian casualties in Lebanese towns and villages close to Israeli targets, with at least 35 people reported killed.

As Israel announces an air and sea blockade of Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah will not be allowed to return to its former position along the international border, world powers react to the escalating crisis.

The US president defends Israel's right to defend itself from attack, but France, Russia and the EU are all critical of a "disproportionate" use of force.

As night falls a rocket hits Israel's third-largest city, Haifa, although Hezbollah denies responsibility."

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?
Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:

Who said anything about proportional, the stupidest leftist word on the Internet at the moment. Oh, was that a barb? Sorry.

I understand that aiports are sometimes used by military forces. But that's just lil' ol' me doing some fancy thinking there.

Moving right along...............
July 14: Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah promises "open war" against Israel after his offices in Beirut are bombed.

The strikes are part of Israel's ongoing operation against targets across Lebanon.

Bridges, roads and fuel depots are hit, with new strikes against Beirut airport. The number of Lebanese civilians killed in the strikes rises above 50, and the crisis continues to concern international powers.

The UN Security Council in an emergency meeting calls for an end to the Israeli operation, saying it is causing the death of innocent civilians.

Iran's president warns that any Israeli attack on Syria, seen as a sponsor of Hezbollah, will provoke a "fierce response".

No stirring of the cauldron that is the Middle East to be seen here, nope. And despite the wishes of the UNSC - the US, UK, France, Germany, and Russia - it is only Israel's right to use the full force of its military to kill Lebanese civilians and destroy the country's infrastructure, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks.
If the shoe fits. And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

As for France, they can go to hell. :rock:

Don't tell us how to take care of ourselves. You've caused enough damage already.
July 15:Israel expands its strikes in Lebanon, attacking a large number of targets including, for the first time, the northern port city of Tripoli.

Eighteen Lebanese fleeing a village are killed when their vehicles are struck with missiles on the road to the southern city of Tyre.

The headquarters of Hezbollah are destroyed in southern Beirut.

Hezbollah responds by firing rockets on the town of Tiberias in its deepest attack into Israel so far.

Israel recovers the body of one of four sailors missing after a Hezbollah strike on a navy vessel off the Lebanese coast.

Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa says the Middle East peace process is dead and calls on the UN Security Council to tackle the crisis.

Lebanon's PM says his country is a "disaster zone" and calls for international help.
Speaking ahead of the G8 meeting in St Petersburg , US President George W Bush blames Hezbollah for the crisis and urges Syria to put pressure on the militants.

His host, Russian President Vladimir Putin, is more critical of Israel's massive bombing campaign, saying that the "use of force should be balanced".
For all the ordinance dropped in Isrrael's "massive bombing campaign" they've finally recovered one of their missing soldiers - or rather his body. Yep, this brilliant campaign is yielding the desired results of freeing their kidnapped troops alright.
You've got the wrong soldier. But why trouble yourself with facts and accuracy.
July 16: Israeli air-raids kill at least 23 people in southern Lebanon, including 16 in the city of Tyre. Seven Canadians of Lebanese origin are killed in a village about 33 miles (50 kilometres) south of Beirut while on a family holiday.

Hezbollah rockets kill eight Israelis in the coastal city of Haifa in the worst attack on Israel since the fighting started.

People living as far south as Tel Aviv are told to be on the alert.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert says the Haifa attack will have "far-reaching consequences".

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah says the battle against Israel is "just at the beginning".

Iran warns Israel that any attack on Syria would incur "unimaginable losses".
Leaders of the G8 nations meeting in St Petersburg blame extremist forces for the crisis, but call on Israel to end military operations.
Seven dead Canadians, killed by an Israeli bombing raid in a country that was not at war with Israel or with anyone else. By Avon's and Israel's standard of conduct Canada, along with the full might of its NATO allies should reciprocate the favour, shouldn't it Avon?
When you invent the magic weapon that can identify innocent Canadians, call us. We'll be happy to use it. Till then, these are the tragedies which war brings, a war started by Lebanon. Please address our neighbors to the north.
Maybe over there anyway. Civilized countries do not behave that way with their democratic neighbours.
Civilized democratic countries don't have parties in Parliament calling for the annihilation of their neighboring country, provided with sophisticated weaponry from rogue regimes including Iran, Syria and North Korea and jump into other countries to kill soldier, and civilians and kidnap them for ransom, too.

Thank G-d normal people do not want to live in your lunatic world.
If they did, then when the allegations that the 19 9/11 hijackers had come into the US through Canada had been reported, the U.S. would have bombed Canada the next day.
Is Al Qaeda an accepted party of Canada's government, given support, sanctuary and weapons by Canada? Just let us know.
However in civilized countries things do not work that way; Canada took in the stranded planes on 9/11, worked within NORAD to help secure US airspace, and allied with the US in the War on Terror which we are fighting in Afghanistan.
Go Canada! :up:
Israel has to be the bully though and show it has the bigger dick. Screw trying to work peacefully with Lebanon toward a solution to the crisis, screw inserting covert special forces on a search and rescue mission, and screw restraint and proportionality. After all, nothing puts a stop to terrorism better than destroying one of the most progressive and democratic countries in the region and terrorizing and killing its inhabitants through the full might of the IDF. Yep, that'll teach them not to mess with Israel, since the prior war and 22 year occupation hasn't taught every single Lebanese citizen that you don't mess with Israel.

You will reap tomorrow what you sow today.
Indeed we will. We reaped yesterday what was sown in Israel's retreat from S. Lebanon 6 years ago. Thanks for the lesson! :know:

(What a waste of pixels!)

[The Avon Lady]

Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:
Watch Brigitte (http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/media/Christian_Persecution.wmv) who currently says thank you, Israel (http://cedarmailer.com/americancongress/pages/archive/messagedetails.asp?ID=475).
And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)

As for France, they can go to hell. :rock:
Suggested reading: Axis of Hypocrisy (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23401)



http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9467/060716disproporespoonsxsf9.gif

Must be going. If there's any more BBC blah-blah, it'll have to wait till tomorrow.

[Gizzmoe]

No. It was warranted. :yep:

It wasn´t. What kind of language you use outside of this forum is none of our business, but here at Subsim.com there are certain rules. Though I´m 100% sure that you already know the forum rules I strongly suggest that you read them again, especially this part:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules3_faq_item

[tycho102]

Iraq has shown how successful one can be in fighting such an organisation. History is filled with example where regular armies failed in fighting insurgents, partisas, guerillas - or such factions with a terrorist background.

As long as you do not strip Lebanon off all rresidents and population, and then dromb a 1000-pounder onto anything left that moves, you will not wi against Hamas.

We had actually decimated the Vietcong after the Tet Offensive, and some VC general said exactly this much back in the early 90's during an interview (why, yes, he managed to stay alive under communism). It was the old media who ran with the story (that the "war" was "unwinnable") and patted themselves on the back for it. It's like the guy who manages to get your project de-funded and it gives him some sense of power.

As for displacing the population, I agree with your strategy. We displaced the populations in Germany, and that's what helped our ground troops. You bomb the hell out of the cities, and force everyone into the countryside; and then you shut down communications between large masses. They'll use carrier pigeons and lasers if you hunt EMF (electromotive force; any kind of radio, including radar), Hunting laser is a bit tough, but it can be done and it's still limited to line-of-sight, because if they try to bank off a cloud or a balloon, a Predator drone will jump out of a bowl of rice and bust a cap in them.

[Kurushio]

I would suggest Israel uses it's nukes before the "use by" date runs out. :lol: By the way...I'd use 'em just to see how pretty they are. ;)

[scandium]

How does bombing the Lebanese airport get back Israel's kidnapped soldiers, and is the overwhelming use of Israeli military power as used in the bombing and invasion of the war torn fledging democracy that is Lebanon a proportional response to the actions of a handful of Lebanese guerillas?
Oooh, the poor warn-torn fledgling democracy - controlled by Syria and Iran. Oooooooh I'm gonna cry! Boo hoo! :oops:

Okay, then if they were controlled by Syria and Iran then where is the Iranian and Syrian response? Nowhere to be seen because Lebanon is an independent democracy while both Syria and Iran are neither. That isn't to say Lebanon doesn't have strong political and economic ties with its neighbours - but what country doesn't? That doesn't equate "control".

Who said anything about proportional, the stupidest leftist word on the Internet at the moment. Oh, was that a barb? Sorry.
When did "proportional" become the domain of the left? Back in the 60s we had our problem with a terrorism organization based out of Quebec called the FLQ, whose agenda was, through militant action, the overthrow of the Quebec government and the seperation of Quebec from Canadian Confederation. From 1963 to 1970 the FLQ committed over 200 acts of violence including bombings, bank robberies, and killings. In October of 1970 they separately kidnapped 2 prominent politicians who they would release only if outrageous demands were met. One week after the second kidnapping the 2nd hostage was killed, and the location of his body was divulged by the kidnappers.

Two months later police discovered the location of the kidnappers who were holding the first hostage, who was still alive, and his release was negotiated. As a condition of the hostages release, we granted safe passage for 5 of the terrorists to Cuba, after obtaining permission from Fidel Castro. Over time various other terrorists associated with crimes committed by the FLQ were caught, tried, convicted, and imprisoned. And that was the end of the FLQ as the events of the October Crisis, combined with the apprehension/deportation of its most prominent members eroded any sympathy for their cause or efforts to recruit new members.

I bring this up to illustrate the concept of proportionality and why it is important; during the October Crisis the Canadian government's actions accomplished the release of the surviving hostage and removed the perpetrators/ring leaders from our society but in a manner that did not create support for the FLQ - in fact, its moderation in the face of their extremism was a factor in the FLQ's demise. Would the movement have died though if we had responded by arbitrarily rounding up random Quebecers and shooting them in Town's Square, proclaiming we would continue to do so until our hostages were released? Of course not, aside from being morally abominable it would have only stirred up outrage in Quebec and played right into the FLQ's hands. We would never have gotten the hostage back and only incited the FLQ to commit worse crimes and for more people to flock to their ranks.

By the way, are you familiar with the 1942 assassination of Reinhard Heydrich bya pair of Czech nationals and the events that followed? At any rate, Heydrich was the administrator of occupied Bavaria and Moravia and his assassination did not go over well with Hitler who instructed the SS and Gestapo to wade through blood to find the killers, and wade through blood they did. The village of Lidice was one casualty of the collective punishment meted out by his underlings, who completedly destroyed the village and murdered its 340 men, women, and children. But then being fascists, what little use would they have for leftest concepts handed out on the internet like "proportionality"? I mean the internet didn't even exist back then. Curiously enough though Stalin, who is as extreme on the left as you go, didn't seem to have much use for proportionality either, as he sent millions off to die in the Gulags for such crimes as political or religious dissent. But then the internet didn't exist back then either, so we can excuse his behaviour since proportionality would have been a foreign concept to people back then. But I digress.


I understand that aiports are sometimes used by military forces. But that's just lil' ol' me doing some fancy thinking there.
What airforce? And it was a civilian airport by the way.

And look at all the hypocrites. US? Russia? We don't come near their massive and non-specific attacks when they deem them necesary (Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya)
You won't find an apologist for Russia's overseas adventures or America's war in Iraq, and I agree that they are hypocrits. But this thread isn't about Iraq or Afghanistan, and you are now engaging in the very same relativist thinking that you and Skybird are forever accusing me off. The only thing I'll say on that is that the American firebombing of Dresden was no defence for those tried at Nuremburg.

When you invent the magic weapon that can identify innocent Canadians, call us. We'll be happy to use it.
They might not have been there if you hadn't first bombed the Lebanese International Airport - but who needs civilian Airports anyway? Aside from non-existant Air Forces.

Civilized democratic countries don't have parties in Parliament calling for the annihilation of their neighboring country, provided with sophisticated weaponry from rogue regimes including Iran, Syria and North Korea and jump into other countries to kill soldier, and civilians and kidnap them for ransom, too.
Allow me to break this run-on sentence down point by point:

#1 is a red herring. Israel occupied Lebanon for 22 years and Hezobollah formed for the very purpose of fighting the IDF that was occupying Lebanon. And if we go back to the time of the British Mandate, your own history isn't so clean when Israeli militant factions were attacking the British in what was then Palestine while the British were busy fighting the Nazis in Europe - and this was before Israel formally even existed. Sure Israel is no longer occupying Lebanon now, but is it realistic to expect that every militant in the country would simply pack up their weapons and take up farming only 6 years after the IDF has left, and forgetting all of the anger and resentment that a 22 year occupation would fuel? Not really. Further, this party occupies only 11% of Parliment so they are hardly representative of the Lebanese government, let alone the entire nation of Lebanon. Then there is the whole freedom of speech thing, and the fact that it even extends to members of parliment for whom rhetoric is part of the job description.

#2 As to the weapons arguement, that is another red herring. Rockets are not terribly sophisticated, and the U.S. sells arms that really are sophisticated to such progressive nations as Saudi Arabia, while democracies like Russia and France do extensive business with both Syria and Iran so what impossible standard are you trying to hold Lebanon to?

#3 Again, an act by guerillas for which any case has been made that their actions were ordered, or even on behalf, of the Lebanese government. I mentioned the FLQ, which at one point in their existance - before the plot was discovered - had planned to blow up the Statue of Liberty. Fortunately this did not happen because I like France, the US, NY, and the Statue of Liberty. But suppose the FLQ had succeeded - what do you think the appropriate US response would have been? Certainly a lot of Americans would have been justifiably pissed off, but would they have been justified to bomb and invade Canada? No, nor would they have (I have enough respect for my American neighbours to give them the benefit of the doubt).


Thank G-d normal people do not want to live in your lunatic world.
Okay. Odd that you say this because in my "lunatic world" I can walk the street, any street in this city, at any hour of the day or night, and unarmed always, without worrying that I will be killed or mugged or blown up or even hasseled by police, and where no walls exist, no checkpoints exist, and no 2nd class of citizens to be feared exists. If this is a "lunatic world" that I live in then I don't want to know what your definition of a sane one is, though I strongly believe the actions your government is taking right now in Lebanon will not help matters much for you. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Is Al Qaeda an accepted party of Canada's government, given support, sanctuary and weapons by Canada? Just let us know.
The FLQ never gained accepted party status, its militant nature having been defeated by reasonable, rational measures, but the part of their ideology - that which sought seperation from Canada - lives on, in a peaceful spirit, within one of our 4 major national parties and within its sister provincial party in Quebec. Both parties are not only accepted, but have considerable political power as well both provincially in Quebec and to a lesser extent federally. Things could have turned out very differently, of course, and I have no doubt that had we dealt with the FLQ the way you folks deal with things over there then the FLQ would still exist and Canada would resemble a very different place today. Not that I'm not sympathetic to your situation, only that I am turned off by your methods.

Indeed we will. We reaped yesterday what was sown in Israel's retreat from S. Lebanon 6 years ago. Thanks for the lesson!
From the retreat, or from the 22 year long occupation?

[Kurushio]

errr...Scandium...I didn't read all your post, but AV says "Israel bombed the Lebanese airport because they were using it for it's military forces"...and you answer "What airforce?". :lol:

See this is all pub talk...cos if it was serious...you'd have people wetting themselves from laughter.

You do realise you can pack militia into an Airbus 330? Or planes carrying weapons from Iran can land and arm terrorists that way?

If I was heading Israel, I'd take Gazza (back), Palestine, Lebanon and Syria...then I'd sue for peace through the UN. Why not? It's a good idea!!! :arrgh!: Then in a year I'd take Iran. :up:

[scandium]

errr...Scandium...I didn't read all your post, but AV says "Israel bombed the Lebanese airport because they were using it for it's military forces"...and you answer "What airforce?". :lol:

See this is all pub talk...cos if it was serious...you'd have people wetting themselves from laughter.

You do realise you can pack militia into an Airbus 330? Or planes carrying weapons from Iran can land and arm terrorists that way?
What's your point Kurushio? The U.S. captured the Iraqi airport and ports within a matter of weeks, if not days, and then captured Baghdad and occupied the country with a 180,000 strong force within 6 weeks, and how's that working out as far as militias, terrorists, and weapons goes? Do yourself a favour, turn on the news and listen to Rumsfeld go on about the "foreign terrorists" swarming in over the Syrian border (and who knows from where else, but certainly not from the airport) and then look at a map and notice that Syria also borders Lebanon. Then ask yourself if you need an international airport to bring in supplies that can more easily be driven across the border.

Bombing their international airport served no military purpose whatsoever. Period. Lebanon, after decades of civil war and occupation has been finally beginning to achieve the very stability, democracy, and some small measure of prosperity and human rights that the U.S. claimed it was intent on bringing to Iraq and now thanks to a handful of extremists and the Israel and its IDF, this could all be for naught. And what does the US, which pretends to be so concerned about democracy in the ME say or do about it? Why it unconditially supports Israel of course.

"Democracries don't go to war with each other." -- G.W. Bush

[kiwi_2005]

Peace. :cool:

[Kurushio]

There will never be peace when nations like Iran and Syria fund terrorist organisations. There will also never be peace when nations like Iran and Syria make it official policy to wipe Israel off the map. I think we should let Israel use it's nukes and army, and see how far it goes. If it was the other way around, they'd have done it already. Just nuke the bastards, invade their land and be done with it....then finally we can have some peace. Problem solved.

[Skybird]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5193228.stm.

"Negotiate with Hezbollah." - Some never learn, even after years of attempts that failed and fired back - at the cost of Israel.

[basilio]

I think we should let Israel use it's nukes and army, and see how far it goes. If it was the other way around, they'd have done it already. Just nuke the bastards, invade their land and be done with it....then finally we can have some peace. Problem solved.
Sorry, just curious but......do you really feel what you wrote?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

sorry... i've attempted to stay out of this so far, but i also would like to know if your were serious about that as well...

also, is karusio a japanese name, word, or whatever...

--Mike

[Skybird]

This is from Djihadwatch, but before anyone thinks he must put it down becasue of that, the quoted articles - as so often - have diffrent primary sources: The Washington Post.


Richard Cohen: Israel a "mistake"; should retreat to pre-'67 borders, "hunker down," and wait



Richard Cohen's suggested strategy for achieving peace among Israel and its neighbors shows the hazards of basing foreign policy on revisionist history. From the Washington Post (via LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21614_WaPo-_Israel_is_a_Historical_Mistake&only)): "Hunker Down With History", with thanks to Hugh Fitzgerald:The greatest mistake Israel could make at the moment is to forget that Israel itself is a mistake. It is an honest mistake, a well-intentioned mistake, a mistake for which no one is culpable, but the idea of creating a nation of European Jews in an area of Arab Muslims (and some Christians) has produced a century of warfare and terrorism of the sort we are seeing now. Israel fights Hezbollah in the north and Hamas in the south, but its most formidable enemy is history itself.This is why the Israeli-Arab war, now transformed into the Israeli-Muslim war (Iran is not an Arab state), persists and widens. It is why the conflict mutates and festers. It is why Israel is now fighting an organization, Hezbollah, that did not exist 30 years ago and why Hezbollah is being supported by a nation, Iran, that was once a tacit ally of Israel's. The underlying, subterranean hatred of the Jewish state in the Islamic world just keeps bubbling to the surface. The leaders of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and some other Arab countries may condemn Hezbollah, but I doubt the proverbial man in their street shares that view.Never mind the fall of the Shah, and the Islamist takeover of Iran. Put the highlighter down; that's not important.[...]There is, though, a point in cautioning Israel to exercise restraint -- not for the sake of its enemies but for itself. Whatever happens, Israel must not use its military might to win back what it has already chosen to lose: the buffer zone in southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip itself.[...]But worse than what is happening now would be a retaking of those territories. That would put Israel smack back to where it was, subjugating a restless, angry population and having the world look on as it committed the inevitable sins of an occupying power. The smart choice is to pull back to defensible -- but hardly impervious -- borders. That includes getting out of most of the West Bank -- and waiting (and hoping) that history will get distracted and move on to something else. This will take some time, and in the meantime terrorism and rocket attacks will continue.How's that for strategy? Retreat and hope.


The remainder of Cohen's piece proceeds as something of a non sequitur-- a few historical anecdotes, and it ends. Fortunately, Israel Matsav has supplied a thorough rebuttal (http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2006/07/history-lesson.html) (see "A History Lesson"; thanks again to LGF and Hugh Fitzgerald):At Little Green Footballs this morning, Charles Johnson points to an article in today's Washington Post with the comment, "At the Washington Post, Richard Cohen agrees with Hamas and Hizballah that 'Israel is a mistake.' And he’s open to the argument that Israel is a 'crime.'"If that sounds like an overly blunt characterization of what Cohen wrote in this morning's Washington Post, it's not. Cohen's article reflects a total ignorance of Jewish history, and of the Jewish connection to the land of Israel dating back to biblical times, which is inexcusable even for an assimilated Jew (which I assume Cohen to be). In fact, even Christians should be offended by Cohen's writing them out of the history of the Holy Land. Cohen adopts the Arab narrative of the last century of history lock, stock and barrel, without even considering that it might be false. Note, I said Arab and not 'Palestinian,' because the 'Palestinians' by their own admission are a fiction created by that Arab narrative.The term "Palestina" was invented by the Roman emperor Hadrian. The Romans wanted to rename Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) after the Philistines, the longtime enemy of the Jews. Hadrian believed that by renaming the Jewish homeland after the Jews' archenemy, he would be able to forever break the bond between the Land of Israel and the Jewish people.[...]The rest of Cohen's argument is standard leftist drivel about how Israel has to 'hunker down' and allow itself to be beaten rather than decisively winning a war (and that's what we're in now) and being able to find peace on its own terms. The fact that Israel has tried to 'hunker down' and give away its territory time and time again in a bid to make 'peace' with the 'Palestinians' - and that the 'Palestinians' and their Arab supporters have come back to fight another day each time - shows the fecklessness of that policy. It's very simple: the Arabs will not willingly tolerate any Jewish presence in this part of the world. There is no amount of land that we can give them that will entice them to live in peace with us. Until we decisively defeat them, they will come back to fight another day and another day. There is no need to give any more of an answer than that.Israel is neither a mistake nor a crime. It is the beginning of the culmination of more than 2000 years of Jewish yearning to return to our homeland. The manner in which the Jewish people has chosen to govern the Land of Israel has its faults. But being a 'mistake' created in 'Arab land' - let alone being a 'crime' - is not among those faults. We Jews have to learn to stop listening to liberals like Cohen and to start fighting - with God's help - for our existence. Hopefully, the current battle marks a turning point.Read it all, especially the superb set of quotations of primary sources.
Posted at July 18, 2006 05:52 PM


A year or longer ago I myself questioned the wisdom and justice of having founded Israel in the way it has been done in1948, and nthat it was the most stupid places to do that. but i also said that neervtheless today I recognize the right to exist, on the basis of one argument: time. One could question the existence of Israel, if the founding ofd it would have been just 5 years ago. But after 60 years, two generations already have been born - and died - in it and for it. Questioning Israel today would repeat the very same injustice that took place in 48 and would mean that one has not learned anything from that. So now that it is there since that long, the only choice is to make the best of it. I may have doubts about it's longterm survivability, but these do not come from moral scruples, but simple strategic considerations. Israel does exist at the cost of eternal war, in a very exposed position.

I recommend to use the link to Israel Matzev'S reply, which is quite some interesting history stuff.

[scandium]

No moral scruples eh? An article by Gideon Levy, former spokesman for Shimon Peres:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738739.html

Operation Peace for the IDF

Every neighborhood has one, a loudmouth bully who shouldn't be provoked into anger. He's insulted? He'll pull out a knife. Spat in the face? He'll draw a gun. Hit? He'll pull out a machine gun. Not that the bully's not right - someone did harm him. But the reaction, what a reaction! It's not that he's not feared, but nobody really appreciates him. The real appreciation is for the strong who don't immediately use their strength. Regrettably, the Israel Defense Forces once again looks like the neighborhood bully. A soldier was abducted in Gaza? All of Gaza will pay. Eight soldiers are killed and two abducted to Lebanon? All of Lebanon will pay. One and only one language is spoken by Israel, the language of force.

The war that the IDF has now declared on Lebanon and before it on Gaza, will never be considered another "war of no choice." Let's save that debate from the historians. This is unequivocally a war of choice. The IDF absorbed two painful blows, which were particularly humiliating, and in their wake went into a war that is all about restoring its lost dignity, which on our side is called "restoring deterrent capabilities." Neither in Lebanon nor certainly in Gaza, can anyone formulate the real goals of the war, so nobody knows for sure what will be considered victory or an achievement. Are we at war in Lebanon? With Hezbollah? Nobody knows for sure. If the goal is to remove Hezbollah from the border, did we try hard enough over the last two years through diplomatic channels? And what's the connection between destroying half of Lebanon and that goal? Everyone agrees that "something must be done." Everyone agrees that a sovereign state cannot remain silent when it is attacked within its own borders, though in Israel's eyes Lebanese sovereignty was always subject to trampling, but why should that non-silence be expressed solely by an immediate and all-out blow?

In Gaza, a soldier is abducted from the army of a state that frequently abducts civilians from their homes and locks them up for years with or without a trial - but only we're allowed to do that. And only we're allowed to bomb civilian population centers.

The painful steps taken in Gaza, which included dropping a one-ton bomb on a residential building, or killing an entire family of seven children under cover of darkness in Lebanon, killing dozens of residents, bombing an airport, cutting off electricity and water to hundreds of thousands of people for months were a response lacking any justification, legitimacy or proportion. What goal did it serve? Was the soldier released? Did the Qassams stop? Was deterrence restored? None of that happened. Only lost honor was supposedly restored, and immediately the next evil wind showed up, this time from the north.

Two more soldiers were abducted and it was clearly proven that the deterrent power was not restored, while IDF failures repeated themselves. How does one erase those searing failures? On the backs of innocent populations. In Lebanon, the situation is more complicated. There is no Israeli occupation and no justification for provoking Israel. If Hezbollah is so worried about its Palestinian brethren, it should have first of all done something for the hundreds of thousands of refugees living in camps in Lebanon in conditions that are just as bad as those under the Israeli occupation, before it grabbed soldiers in their name.

But does the fact that Hezbollah is a cynical organization that exploits the misery of Palestinians for its own purposes justify the disproportionate reaction? The concept that we have totally forgotten is proportionality. While we're in no hurry to get to the negotiating table, we're eager to get to the battlefield and the killing without delay, without taking any time to think. That deepens suspicions that we need a war every few years, with terrifying repetition, even if afterward we end up back in exactly the same position.

The war we declared on Lebanon has already exacted from us, and of course from Lebanon, too, a heavy price. Did anyone give any thought to the question whether it should be paid?

Everyone knows how this war begins, but does anyone know how it ends? Heavy casualties in the Israeli rear? A war with Syria? A general war? Is it all worth it? Look what a new rookie government can do in such a short time.

Behind the operations in Lebanon and Gaza is the same foolish idea about pressure on the population leading to political changes that Israel wants. In the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict, that concept has only led us from one disaster to the next. We "cleansed" southern Lebanon of Palestinians in 1982, and what did we get? Hezbollahstan instead of Fatahland. Hamas won't fall because Gaza is in the dark, and not even because we bombed the Palestinian Foreign Ministry building at the weekend - another nonsensical move; Hezbollah won't be smashed because the international airport in Beirut has been put out of commission.

Israel once again is not distinguishing between a justified war against Hezbollah and an unjust and unwise war against the Lebanese nation. The camouflage concealing the war's real goals was ripped off by this defense minister, who says what he means: "Nasrallah is going to get it so bad that he will never forget the name Amir Peretz," he bragged, like a typical bully. Now at least we know that Israel went to war so that the name Amir Peretz is never forgotten. It's the war for the perpetuation of the name Peretz and the blurring of Dan Halutz's failures. And to hell with the cost.

[Skybird]

If a victim of decades of terror starts to hold itself responsible for others trying to murder and annihilate it, then this situation has an unvoluntarily yet strong taste of black humour.

The Palestinians are responsible for Hamas being targetted, for they have brought the Hamas to power.

The Lebanese are not unguilty, too. They have done nothing to protest in the street, to bring public life to a standstill in protest against their government, the corruption, Syrian presence, and the presence of the Hezbollah. they say it is their country, then they should take better care of it. It all takes place in the middle of their community, but nevertheless now they say :"Hezbollah is not in our town, not in our block, it is somehwere out there, but we are not responsible". the old pattern of Islam - accepting terrorists and/or extremists in their middle for hiding, instead of isolating them and driving them out, and then saying "we are not them, we are not responsible for their deeds, they are not us." Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows. In German, we say it even shorter: mitgefangen, mitgehangen - Basta.

If there is one lesson to be learned from this European illusion of "peace process" (in TV they still discuss how the "peace process" can be reawakened - as if it ever has been there) then that it has not acchieved anything, and I am deeply sorry for every tax-Euro from Germany being wasted in this process. Now they want to send UN troops. Great idea. The UN always has failed when it came to "robust mandates". As a matter of fact there are already UN troops stationed, twothousand. Their effect: zero. They write reports, and that's it, they do not influence events in any way, nor do they prevent strikes against Israel. Their political mastermind has ordered them to recognize militias as regular government troops, thus not stopping them when they head for the border to commit new attacks. The UN wants more of this paper-folly, so that it can say: our tools are sufficient to adress the reality, we have the power to make peace. But the reality and what the West thinks is reality are lightyears apart. years of constant terror bombings - that is considered to be a peace process. Those responsible for this murderous plot are considered to be trustworthy negotiation partners. And Jack the Ripper will be declared vice chairman of the International charity fund. Hooray - more of this, please! there is no terror and no murder, these crimes can be effectively fought by not labelling them as this. "Let's show how reasonable we are - let's show how willing we are to let our attackers stay alive, and carry on with shooting at us, and shake their hands at negotiation tables! We have lived with bloodshed for thirty years, so we can be expected to live another thirty years and longer with it." That's what the West demands from Israel. Hypocricy.

As far as the Lebanese are concerned, as a nation and community they obviously have not done enough to prevent what is happening now. Bad choice, accepting terrorists in your backyard is no good idea. Now they are shown the bill. If hitting Hezbollah targets means to destroy civilain taregts as well - then be it: that is war. Never allow your enemy to prevent your from shooting at him. It already is difficult enough to idnetify Hezbollah positions. If the presence of non-targets is another excuse not to fight back, then the IDF is left with niothing more than cooking tea and having a picnic all day long.

80% of Israelis are quoted to be in support to this operation. Maybe the West should start to take note of this number. It is their immediate fates at stake, not ours. and most westerners that now beolieve they must open their mouth and voice their oh so great opinion - never have seen a battlefield with their own eyes, not to mention to have been experiencing war, and lethal violence.

For Iran, all this is a nice distraction from it's nuclear program. Syria cannot afford war with Israel, so it stay silent. Behind the curtain, both countries are pulling the strings in Lebanon.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1823817,00.html

[Kurushio]

Am I serious? Well let's face it...there's gonna be a world war one day...this way we just get a head start. And yes...there will be another world war...now or in a hundred years...it's only a matter of when :up:

p.s. Obviously i meant use the nukes on military facilities. also...nukes are pretty...I'd wait until dark to launch them...much better lightshow...

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

ok... let me be the first to suggest that karushio change his handle to Gen Jack Kurushio Ripper...

surely you must be joking... but i must ask... how is your 'essence' doing these days K...
--> http://www.lukefisher.com/women.wav

--Mike

[Kurushio]

ok... let me be the first to suggest that karushio change his handle to Gen Jack Harushio Ripper...

--Mike
Did you read the part about nukes being pretty? I like pretty things too...like flowers....and nukes. errr:hmm: yeah....whats the point of building a nuke if you're going to throw it away...at least use it..:yep:

edit: nukes never hurt anyone...

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

whats the point of building a nuke if you're going to throw it away...

exactly... why build em in the first place...

nuclear war is suicide... for all parties involved...

...and those standing by watching it as well...

and that may be the final justice... if there is any justice to be found in this...
even you will be one of its victims...

you feel safe... don't you...
that's because someone has told you, maybe the pretty flowers, that
the radiation respects geo political boundaries...

-->http://www.lukefisher.com/mussed.wav




--Mike

[Kurushio]

whats the point of building a nuke if you're going to throw it away...
exactly... why build em in the first place...

nuclear war is suicide... for all parties involved...

...and those standing by watching it as well...

and that may be the final justice... if there is any justice to be found in this...
even you will be one of its victims...

you feel safe... don't you...
that's because someone has told you, maybe the pretty flowers, that
the radiation respects geo political boundaries...

-->http://www.lukefisher.com/mussed.wav




--Mike
bah...don't be so melodramatic....anyway...nukes saved lives too...why do you think we haven't had anymore big wars up until now? yeah...the threat of nukes. Only prob now is...we have suicidal nutcases who are prepared to try nukes out...Iran. ;) I say...give 'em a taste of what they can do...maybe that'll convince them to stop building them?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

I say...give 'em a taste of what they can do...maybe that'll convince them to stop building them?

pretty much the same thinking that got Hirsohima and Nagasaki bombed not too long ago... eh...


--Mike

[Kurushio]

I say...give 'em a taste of what they can do...maybe that'll convince them to stop building them?
pretty much the same thinking that got Hirsohima and Nagasaki bombed not too long ago... eh...


--Mike

No..that was so you didn't have to invade the Japanese main islands...wasn't it?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

same ideaolgy... let em eat gamma rays...
give em a severe sunburn...

indiscrimanently kill off civilians in one fell swooop...

no real difference...

the reason you put forth was given to a war weary
public... there were more factors involved in the
decision to nuke the cities of Japan...


and if you really think i'm being melodramatic... give this
a few more days... and you'll see the real melodrama
start to unfold...

--Mike

[scandium]

If a victim of decades of terror starts to hold itself responsible for others trying to murder and annihilate it, then this situation has an unvoluntarily yet strong taste of black humour.
Indeed, so why do you hold Lebanon to such a standard given that it was wracked by decades of war, civil war, and foreign occupation and has only in recent years finally achieved a true measure of independence and autonomy?

The Palestinians are responsible for Hamas being targetted, for they have brought the Hamas to power. You are confusing conflicts and terrorist organizations.

The Lebanese are not unguilty, too. They have done nothing to protest in the street, to bring public life to a standstill in protest against their government, the corruption, Syrian presence, and the presence of the Hezbollah. they say it is their country, then they should take better care of it. Skybird this is simply not true. Either you are ill-informed or you are projecting your usual anti-Arab bias into events there to make them conform to your prejudices. New phrase of the day for you Skybird: Cedar Revolution. From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Revolution


Cedar Revolution has become the most commonly used name for the chain of demonstrations and popular civic action in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) (mainly Beirut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beirut)) triggered by the assassination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin) of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafik_Hariri) on February 14 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_14), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005).
The primary goals of the original activists were the withdrawal of Syrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) troops from Lebanon, the establishment of an international commission to investigate the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri, the resignation of security officials, and the organization of free parliamentary elections. The demonstrators requested the end of the Syrian influence in Lebanese politics. During the period of the first wave of demonstrations, Syria had been maintaining a force of roughly 14,000 soldiers and intelligence agents in Lebanon [1] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4322477.stm). Following the demonstrations, the Syrian troops completely withdrew from Lebanon on April 27, 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_27%2C_2005). The Pro-Syrian government was also disbanded, accomplishing the main goal of the revolution.
And the American President's comments on these events:

"Well, we just had a really interesting discussion. I told the Prime Minister that the United States strongly supports a free and independent and sovereign Lebanon. We took great joy in seeing the Cedar Revolution. We understand that the hundreds of thousands of people who took to the street to express their desire to be free required courage, and we support the desire of the people to have a government responsive to their needs and a government that is free, truly free . .

There's no question in my mind that Lebanon can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East; that out of the tough times the country has been through will rise a state that shows that it's possible for people of religious difference to live side-by-side in peace; to show that it's possible for people to put aside past histories to live together in a way that the people want, which is, therefore, to be peace and hope and opportunity."

It all takes place in the middle of their community, but nevertheless now they say :"Hezbollah is not in our town, not in our block, it is somehwere out there, but we are not responsible". the old pattern of Islam - accepting terrorists and/or extremists in their middle for hiding, instead of isolating them and driving them out, and then saying "we are not them, we are not responsible for their deeds, they are not us." Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows. In German, we say it even shorter: mitgefangen, mitgehangen - Basta. This is comment of yours is proof of what I said above. Lebanon is not an Islamic theocracy, and within its democratic government the Christians hold about the same amount of power as its other religions.

Thus, as a progressive, parlimentary democracy of many faiths it has more in common with your own European democracies than it does with the typically totalitarian Muslim states in the regions that you attemp to equate it with. This arguement of yours is a strawman. The Lebanese have not only been trying to root out the extremist factions, it itself has been victim to them. But to accomplish these things requires military and infrastrastructure and stability - the very things Israel is systematically destroying. Furthermore, Hezbollah was founded during the Israeli occupation to fight the IDF and with strong backing from Syria and Iran who are sitting on the sidelines and smiling while Israel behaves as a rogue state by razing the very country of only 4 million people that Bush said "can serve as a great example for what is possible in the broader Middle East". Who do you think are the winners here Skybird? Not Lebanon, which did nothing to provoke this respone, and not Israel, which every day moves closer to becoming an international pariah (if it isn't already). As to Hezbollah, this could go either way for them - it is russian roulette for Israel on that score. But as for Iran and Syria, they will have no trouble using these events to recruit what were formerly moderates, among them perhaps the now displaced 100,000 Lebanese civilians who will scatter to all parts of the world as a group of very pissed off refugees and I don't blame them one bit. I would be too.

If there is one lesson to be learned from this European illusion of "peace process" (in TV they still discuss how the "peace process" can be reawakened - as if it ever has been there) then that it has not acchieved anything, and I am deeply sorry for every tax-Euro from Germany being wasted in this process. Now they want to send UN troops. Great idea. The UN always has failed when it came to "robust mandates". As a matter of fact there are already UN troops stationed, twothousand. Their effect: zero. They write reports, and that's it, they do not influence events in any way, nor do they prevent strikes against Israel. Their political mastermind has ordered them to recognize militias as regular government troops, thus not stopping them when they head for the border to commit new attacks. The UN wants more of this paper-folly, so that it can say: our tools are sufficient to adress the reality, we have the power to make peace. But the reality and what the West thinks is reality are lightyears apart. years of constant terror bombings - that is considered to be a peace process. Those responsible for this murderous plot are considered to be trustworthy negotiation partners. And Jack the Ripper will be declared vice chairman of the International charity fund. Hooray - more of this, please! there is no terror and no murder, these crimes can be effectively fought by not labelling them as this. "Let's show how reasonable we are - let's show how willing we are to let our attackers stay alive, and carry on with shooting at us, and shake their hands at negotiation tables! We have lived with bloodshed for thirty years, so we can be expected to live another thirty years and longer with it." That's what the West demands from Israel. Hypocricy.
Here are some facts for you, not that they'll dissuade you from your usual (and in this case out of touch completely) hyperbole:

In Lebanon, the death toll as of last night stood at 235 people killed in Lebanon (8 of whom are Canadians, I don't know when we went war with Lebanon but given they have killed 8 of my countryman with no fair warning to leave Lebanon before the hail of bombs came, and that they have even made that more difficult by destroying the means for them to escape, well I am beginning to wonder) and 25 in Israel. About half of the Israeli dead are military personnel, while only a handful of the Lebanese killed were military and a fraction civilian. But the Lebanese people who have not, and whose army has not, taken any action against Israel and whose democratic government was not only caught by surprise by all these events, but have begged ever since for a cease fire - and I am to believe that Lebanon is the aggressor and the Lebanese at fault?

As far as the Lebanese are concerned, as a nation and community they obviously have not done enough to prevent what is happening now. Bad choice, accepting terrorists in your backyard is no good idea. See the Cedar Revolution above, which was only a year ago by the way, and comes after their recent occupied status has ended. By the way, how long did it take Germany to become stable after WWI and the Treaty of Versailles? 25-30 years? During which time the country was in virtual civil war as the Communists, Socialists, and Fascists (and their militant/terrorist factions) damn near tore Germany apart, correct? And what did it take to end all of this civil strife in this civilized country? Hitler. And what did he do to put an end to the strife, stabilize the country, and what was the outcome of those actions? Maybe you are not the one to preach given that Lebanon has been through an upheaval of its own yet was managing to make strides in the right direction without putting the authoritarian regime in power that your people did under similar circumstances.

Now they are shown the bill. If hitting Hezbollah targets means to destroy civilain taregts as well - then be it: that is war. No, that is genocide, not war. Militant Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government, its acts were contrary to the wishes of the government while the state of Israel uses this as a pretext to depopulate Lebanon (100,000 have already fled), destroy its infrastructure and eventually probably reoccupy it again.

Never allow your enemy to prevent your from shooting at him. It already is difficult enough to idnetify Hezbollah positions. If the presence of non-targets is another excuse not to fight back, then the IDF is left with niothing more than cooking tea and having a picnic all day long.
Like Israel you apparently neither know nor care who the enemy is. It seems its enough to satisfy you that there's killing being done in Lebanon and if the people being killed are Hezbollah, Lebanese civillians, or Canadians then its all the same right?

[Rockstar]

bullets...

Israel has endured these iranian backed terrorists for years it was not the first time one of their citizens or soldiers had been kidnapped. Could they or would they have retaliated as they did if the U.S. did not have a strong military presence in the middle east?

The majority of the Arab league has told Hezbollah you started it you finish it and will not openly join them. I believe giving Israel a green light to go after them.

Is the U.S. and Israel trying to draw Syria into a war? Many have said it where the WMDs might be hiding what better way to find out than invade it?

Btw, Israel feel free to pull the plug on any American news media especially the Cresent News Network (CNN).

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.07.15.RockemSockem-X.gif

Robert Tracinski has an excellent editorial at Real Clear Politics about Iran's war: The War Comes to Us.

If, in the face of repeated threats and provocation by an aggressive dictatorship, you refuse to go to war, the war will eventually come to you.
That's the meaning of Iran's de facto declaration of war against Israel--which is, ultimately, a new war Iran is waging against the US. Iran is so desperate for war with the West that it is bringing the war to us, openly and willfully initiating a regional conflict that may soon involve three of Iran's proxies--Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria--fighting against America's proxy, Israel.

The danger for us is that, in seeking to avoid an unavoidable war with Iran, we have allowed Iran to start the conflict on terms that it believes will be most favorable to it. ...

In my view, the issue is not why Iran chose to begin a shooting war now; the issue is where it chose to do so. Iran is striking at the point where it thinks it is strongest and the West is weakest.

This is an Iranian strong point because it controls a whole network of proxy forces that can attack Israel on two fronts. As for the weakness of the West, the craven Europeans, crushed by leftist self-loathing over their "colonialist" past, seek to apologize for their sins by offering a scapegoat for sacrifice: the Jews who fled Europe to establish the one outpost of Western civilization in the Middle East. As for America, Israel is the one area where we have consistently suspended every virtue of American war policy.

Worse, the Palestinian Authority is the one area where we have tolerated the creation of a new Islamist terrorist regime, on the grounds that it is "democratically elected." As I explained in "The Weapon of Democracy," in TIA's last print issue, this is how the US has been disarmed by the dangerously vague concept of "democracy": if we claim that we are fighting for liberty, and then we equate liberty with "democracy"--then how can we condemn a "democratically elected" terrorist regime?

Thus, predictably, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon split the West, with the European Union taking its usual anti-Israel stance, even as the US vetoed a proposed Security Council resolution condemning Israel.

The Iranian provocation of Israel is also calculated to roll back one of the recent achievements of US foreign policy: the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon. After Syrian troops were forced to withdraw from Lebanon last year, the advocates of Lebanese independence began calling for the disarmament of Hezbollah, the Shiite militia in Southern Lebanon that has long served as a Syrian ally and proxy. But, using the "weapon of democracy," Hezbollah has long had a large representation in Lebanon's parliament.

[Skybird]

Scnadium,

my only direct reply to you in this thread, there will be no other.

Lebanon? Independent? Sovereign? :lol: On paper, maybe. Have i missed something? Stop reading Syrian newspapers. The murderers sleep in Beirut, their victims are on the southern side of the fence.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations. Placing bombs in busses and civilian crowds is qualification enough for that descripiton. You are confusing victim with murderer. The Mafgia in Sicily orginally cared for it'S servants and obedient followers. This did not make them anything different from being the Mafia. Hezbollah also does charity work, by that it can harvest the young to educate them in the politicis of Hezbollah, which includes mass murder. Be careful to see them as anything else than orginuzed murders just because they take care of their own.

Revolution nice and well, but Syria has the saying in Lebanon, even after the withdrawal of troops, while terrorists of Syria-supported Hezbollah are sending ministres to Lebanese cabinet.

And concerning Hamas, German newspaper "Die Welt" two or three days ago quoted Bush saying at the G8 (unaware that the mikes were open) that all "this **** is just because of the Hamas."

If Lebanon is your great example of what can be achieved, then I hope I never must witness the day when you judge that something is a failure.

Chriszian factions have been thinned out in Lebanon, and dramatically, comoared to the early 80s. Drusic militias do no longer play a sognificant role. The multiculti also has been crushed - several reports on this over the last months and 2-3 years. Lebanon HAS NOTHING TO DO with European models, that time is over, gone, done, dead, away. Culturally, we have far more in common with Israel, than with any of it's neighbours. You seriously distort things here.

The death toll in war is expected to be higher than during peace. It would not be there if Israeli cities and people would not get assassinated time and again by Palestinian murderers. It's war, man. You can be sad that there is war, but to be sad that war is dirty is absurd. That's war, if it would be different, it wouldn'T be war.

Recruitments or terrorists by Syria and Iran is not my concern here, since that would take place anyway, this operation is about reducing the material stockpile of weapons, and avoiding to need to negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah. Their weapons stockpiles cannot be wiped out, but they can be reduced. Washington is said to have given them one more week, until then they will try destroy anything that looks like a weapon of Hizbollah.

If the Lebanese would keep the result of their instabiltiy to themselves (terror, that is), noone would complain. Unfortunately it is directed at Israel time and again. If their would be no Syrian control in Lebanon, and if they would not host Hezbollah and giuve it power in the government, then their would not be so huge a problem. Libanese people are not able or willing (doesn't matter for the outcome) to take care of this, while Israel was at the receoiving end of this arrangement. You may call selfdefense genocide, but I am afraid you will just earn more laughs for that. Genocide has another quality, another intention and motive, and another scale.

I do not welcome the killing of tourists. Tells something that you try to give the impression I do. but it is war. when there is war, and you are in the middle of it, then it is bad luck. Has nothing to do with justice, or morale, or guilt, it simply is like it is. They better shouldn'T have been there. If a stone falls from the roof on my head, I better shouldn't have stepped outside the house in that moment. As it is, they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. That's sad, but there are targets of a multitude of types that in war needs to be destroyed. It's that way, and it is not different. It's war. I witnessed one bomb attack in Berlin 1986 myself at closest range - do you think I have asked for it? Should I file a case against fate?

You are too naive. You think if an official piece of paper says something, that this is the penultimate reality, and if a murderer shakes hand, that has a noble meaning. But there is lie in this world, and cruelty, betrayal and hunger for power, acceptance for violance, and religions that excuse the slaughtering on non-believers. Realize it, live with it, and if you wish: fight against it - but not by means of simply ignorring this all, pretending this will make it go away.

[scandium]

bullets...

Israel has endured these iranian backed terrorists for years it was not the first time one of their citizens or soldiers had been kidnapped. Could they or would they have retaliated as they did if the U.S. did not have a strong military presence in the middle east? Endured? Surely you jest.

The majority of the Arab league has told Hezbollah you started it you finish it and will not openly join them. I believe giving Israel a green light to go after them. You catch on quick grasshopper. The question is why the green light? I think the reasons are threefold and the significance of each varies from state to state:

#1. The supporters of Hezbollah (the Syrian/Iranian connection) with only a trifling investment of capital and nothing else, enjoy the fruits of Israel's smashing of a small yet progressive ME country. And what are the fruits of this labour? Displaced Lebanese (100,000 and counting), some of whom will almost certainly hold enough of a grudge over this injustice to become Jihadist cannon fodder, and the international condemnation of Israel for its actions and the further loss of international prestige and support.

#2. Up until now its been the rule that democracies don't go to war with each other (as Bush famously pointed out) because democratization leads to good free markets, wealth, prosperity, human rights, trade partnerships, and acceptance into the international community. Lebanon meets the democratic criteria and was on this path, yet where did it lead it? It is every bit as isolated as Saddam Hussein's Iraq, in fact more isolated, and just as helpless. The lesson people in Lebanon will learn from this, and which their "friendly" Syrian and Iranian friends will point to is that democracy leads you nowhere and that had Lebanon not kicked Syria out perhaps Israel would have left it alone (as it is leaving Syria and Iran alone despite the ties of both to Hezbollah).

#3. Simple self-interest. None of them, not separately and not together, can defeat Israel - so why get involved when they can play the "good guys" by remaining neutral and the world gets distracted in the meantime from Iranian nuclear ambitions or Syrian human rights records.

Is the U.S. and Israel trying to draw Syria into a war? Many have said it where the WMDs might be hiding what better way to find out than invade it? An allegation is not proof, and you do commit blood and money on such a treasure hunt unless you're a fool. So no.


If, in the face of repeated threats and provocation by an aggressive dictatorship, you refuse to go to war, the war will eventually come to you.
That's the meaning of Iran's de facto declaration of war against Israel--which is, ultimately, a new war Iran is waging against the US. Iran is so desperate for war with the West that it is bringing the war to us, openly and willfully initiating a regional conflict that may soon involve three of Iran's proxies--Hamas, Hezbollah, and Syria--fighting against America's proxy, Israel. Faulty premise. Iran no more declared war Israel than did Lebanon.


The danger for us is that, in seeking to avoid an unavoidable war with Iran, we have allowed Iran to start the conflict on terms that it believes will be most favorable to it. ...

In my view, the issue is not why Iran chose to begin a shooting war now; the issue is where it chose to do so. Iran is striking at the point where it thinks it is strongest and the West is weakest.

This is an Iranian strong point because it controls a whole network of proxy forces that can attack Israel on two fronts. As for the weakness of the West, the craven Europeans, crushed by leftist self-loathing over their "colonialist" past, seek to apologize for their sins by offering a scapegoat for sacrifice: the Jews who fled Europe to establish the one outpost of Western civilization in the Middle East. As for America, Israel is the one area where we have consistently suspended every virtue of American war policy. You have a good imagination, if only you were as thorough with your fact checking. ;)


Worse, the Palestinian Authority is the one area where we have tolerated the creation of a new Islamist terrorist regime, on the grounds that it is "democratically elected." As I explained in "The Weapon of Democracy," in TIA's last print issue, this is how the US has been disarmed by the dangerously vague concept of "democracy": if we claim that we are fighting for liberty, and then we equate liberty with "democracy"--then how can we condemn a "democratically elected" terrorist regime? This is a false paradox. The reality is that democracy is something the US only pays lip service to, but otherwise could care less as long as its own interests are met. Thus Pakistan, because of its regional power, willingness to tow the American line, and penchant for expensive weapons and Saudi Arabia, with its massive oil reserves and compliant government that is willing to keep the locals in line and the spigot turned up, are valued American strategic and trade partners despite the fact that one country is little more than a military dictatorship and the other a midieval theocracy, and that both countries have ties, past and present, to terrorism and abysmal human rights records. Its when countries suddenly begin to get uppity and put their own interests first that the US takes a serious interest in their manner of government and its human rights record.

Thus, predictably, the Israeli invasion of Lebanon split the West, with the European Union taking its usual anti-Israel stance, even as the US vetoed a proposed Security Council resolution condemning Israel.
There was no "split". Every member of the UNSC (and Russia is neither European nor part of the EU by the way) objected to Israel's conduct except for its usual Rubber Stamp: the US. That is not a "split", that is business as usual as far as Israel goes.

After Syrian troops were forced to withdraw from Lebanon last year, the advocates of Lebanese independence began calling for the disarmament of Hezbollah, the Shiite militia in Southern Lebanon that has long served as a Syrian ally and proxy.
This I not only agree with, but I've tried to point this out in my usual go-nowhere discussion with Skybird; so from this it follows, what can Israel accomplish by razing Lebanon and dispersing a big chunk of its population to other countries as waves of destitute refugees? Moral issues aside, I see nothing good coming of this for either Israel or for the rest of us.

[tycho102]

Btw, Israel feel free to pull the plug on any American news media especially the Cresent News Network (CNN).


heh. They "pulled the plug" on a Fox news camera. I'm actually surprised they didn't pull the plug on the cameraman, as well.

Reporters without borders, my arse.

[scandium]

Scnadium,

my only direct reply to you in this thread, there will be no other.

Lebanon? Independent? Sovereign? :lol: On paper, maybe. Have i missed something? Stop reading Syrian newspapers. The murderers sleep in Beirut, their victims are on the southern side of the fence.
I don't read Syrian newspapers anymore than I read the Jihadwatch blog and post articles here from it daily like some certain nameless people here ;). Perhaps that is why your view of the world appear skewered to me, as there is some definite bias, disortion, and outright lies,
(whether deliberate or merely of omission) on that trashy tabloid that some suck up like it was the gospel . Mostly I read the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the New York Times, the CBC website, and the BBC website. That is my staple and if its not perfect, it at least offers a mix of viewpoints rather than an agenda masquerading in the guise of "reporting".

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations. Placing bombs in busses and civilian crowds is qualification enough for that descripiton. You are confusing victim with murderer. The Mafgia in Sicily orginally cared for it'S servants and obedient followers. This did not make them anything different from being the Mafia. Hezbollah also does charity work, by that it can harvest the young to educate them in the politicis of Hezbollah, which includes mass murder. Be careful to see them as anything else than orginuzed murders just because they take care of their own. I see things as they are, I simply don't buy into the notion that you can stamp out terrorism by destroying a country's infrastructure, armed forces, and civilians (deliberately or otherwise - dead is dead). The only thing you will accomplish, unless you adopt genocidal measures as well, is an increasingly angry, resentful, and desparate population who, feeling victimized themselves and certain that their cause is therefore righteous, and they have little to lose anyway, will become radical when they otherwise would not have. Thus you create the conditions of anomie whereby people have had the normal bonds to society and family stripped away from them and thus no longer feel bound to the laws and norms of society. So they commit suicide, become criminals, or become terrorists.

Look at Iraq, as example: the destruction of the Iraqi civil service, its economy, the dismantlement of its armed forces, and an occupation by a foreign power. What was the outcome of that Skybird? Total lawlessness, chaos, and terrorism on a scale that the US probably would never admit to. And the best part of it is, that if they leave a lot of these Jihadists who have nothing else to live for are probably going to follow them home. Wonderful!

Revolution nice and well, but Syria has the saying in Lebanon, even after the withdrawal of troops, while terrorists of Syria-supported Hezbollah are sending ministres to Lebanese cabinet. I dispute that, but I think the outcome of Israel's demolition of Lebanon will likely lead to an eventual Syrian occupation. So even if you're right, its about to get worse.

And concerning Hamas, German newspaper "Die Welt" two or three days ago quoted Bush saying at the G8 (unaware that the mikes were open) that all "this **** is just because of the Hamas."
Yeah, that's why his handlers rarely allow him to do anything unscripted ;)

If Lebanon is your great example of what can be achieved, then I hope I never must witness the day when you judge that something is a failure. "Achieved" means an endpoint, that is a total mischaracterization of what I said, which was that Lebanon had only recently begun down the road of progress and democracy, and that having gone down this road there was hope there. If you judge it by its neighbours then even at the point it is at now it looks pretty damn good by comparison, in absolute terms it has a ways to go yes - but what new democracy hasn't? The Berlin Wall fell 20 years ago and Russia went through much turmoil and upheaval (mainly economic) before stability returned and still today it is imperfect and struggles with certain desires to turn back to the old ways.

Chriszian factions have been thinned out in Lebanon, and dramatically, comoared to the early 80s. Drusic militias do no longer play a sognificant role. The multiculti also has been crushed - several reports on this over the last months and 2-3 years. Lebanon HAS NOTHING TO DO with European models, that time is over, gone, done, dead, away. Culturally, we have far more in common with Israel, than with any of it's neighbours. You seriously distort things here.
*shrug* Israel itself is a pretty new democracy, and its start back in the '40s was far from perfect. That's even if you ignore the militant Israeli faction (the Irgun, I believe) in Palestine that, during the British Mandate, offered an allegience with Nazi Germany, believing it expedient since both were fighting the British anyway. Of course there are two standards of conduct: 1 for Israel, and 1 for everyone else.

The death toll in war is expected to be higher than during peace. It would not be there if Israeli cities and people would not get assassinated time and again by Palestinian murderers. It's war, man. You can be sad that there is war, but to be sad that war is dirty is absurd. That's war, if it would be different, it wouldn'T be war. That didn't cut it at Nuremburg, where we hung quite a few folks because of their conduct in the war (as well as their activities outside of it).

Recruitments or terrorists by Syria and Iran is not my concern here, since that would take place anyway, this operation is about reducing the material stockpile of weapons, and avoiding to need to negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah. Their weapons stockpiles cannot be wiped out, but they can be reduced. Washington is said to have given them one more week, until then they will try destroy anything that looks like a weapon of Hizbollah.

Airports, bridges, roads, and milk factories are weapons? :hmm:

If the Lebanese would keep the result of their instabiltiy to themselves (terror, that is), noone would complain. Unfortunately it is directed at Israel time and again. If their would be no Syrian control in Lebanon, and if they would not host Hezbollah and giuve it power in the government, then their would not be so huge a problem. Libanese people are not able or willing (doesn't matter for the outcome) to take care of this, while Israel was at the receoiving end of this arrangement. You may call selfdefense genocide, but I am afraid you will just earn more laughs for that. That Lebanon couldn't take care of the problem is a matter I would dispute, especially since the same day of the kidnapping Israel immediately replied militarily and continued to escalate it in the days that followed. There were other avenues, other approaches they could have taken. Personally I think that if your goal is to get back a hostage then the best avenue is through the security services and special forces, ideally with the cooperation of the Lebanese government (and you cannot say they would have refused because the offer was never made). Call me crazy but if my wife is kidnapped I am not going to go about finding her by blowing up the police station. That is just stupid and counterproductive.

In terms of a solution to the larger problem, there were other approaches to that as well. Military force, while always an option, should always be the last resort and not the first one. Countries who behave in this manner are not civilized nations, and in this respect Israel's record is worse than many of its neighbours.

I do not welcome the killing of tourists. Tells something that you try to give the impression I do. but it is war. when there is war, and you are in the middle of it, then it is bad luck. Has nothing to do with justice, or morale, or guilt, it simply is like it is. They better shouldn'T have been there.
Why shouldn't they have been there? Lebanon was not at war with anyone and they could no more predict the rapid events that occurred anymore than you or I could; and further, even once it began the manner that it was conducted by Israel - the immediate retaliation, the immediate bombing of the airport, roads, bridges, the naval blockade - all give it a quality of something other than 'bad luck'. Even Saddam Hussein was given 48 hours to get out of dodge, and he knew for months what was coming, and every attempt was made to facilitate his peaceful stepping down (I think Jordan even offered him safe haven) - and this was a ruthless dictator. Yet for the Canadians, Americans, Europeans, and ordinary Lebanese citizens, what warning do they get? None. A week after the fact and there are still huge numbers of foreign nationals only now being able to be evacuated. And this is "bad luck"?

If a stone falls from the roof on my head, I better shouldn't have stepped outside the house in that moment. As it is, they were in the wrong place, at the wrong time. That's sad, but there are targets of a multitude of types that in war needs to be destroyed. It's that way, and it is not different. It's war. I witnessed one bomb attack in Berlin 1986 myself at closest range - do you think I have asked for it? Should I file a case against fate? And if an Israeli dropped bomb falls on your head because you are in a country that their leaders decided to bomb without warning, then that is simple "bad luck"? Were the 9/11 victims also just unlucky? A matter of fate? You astound me.

You are too naive. You think if an official piece of paper says something, that this is the penultimate reality, and if a murderer shakes hand, that has a noble meaning. But there is lie in this world, and cruelty, betrayal and hunger for power, acceptance for violance, and religions that excuse the slaughtering on non-believers. Realize it, live with it, and if you wish: fight against it - but not by means of simply ignorring this all, pretending this will make it go away.
I am not ignoring it.

[August]

So Scandium.

You seem to be very sure about what Israel shouldn't do, how about telling us what you think Israel should do to stop Hezbollah rocket attacks, kidnappings and incursions into Israeli territory?

I'm really interested in hearing your solution to this problem...

[Skybird]

I don't read Syrian newspapers anymore than I read the Jihadwatch blog and post articles here from it daily like some certain nameless people here ;). Perhaps that is why your view of the world appear skewered to me, as there is some definite bias, disortion, and outright lies, (whether deliberate or merely of omission) on that trashy tabloid that some suck up like it was the gospel . Mostly I read the Toronto Star, the Globe and Mail, the New York Times, the CBC website, and the BBC website. That is my staple and if its not perfect, it at least offers a mix of viewpoints rather than an agenda masquerading in the guise of "reporting".

I am not one blind ignorrant living under a stone, you know. This is my folder with my "daily patrol":

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7273/0033pk0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[scandium]

So Scandium.

You seem to be very sure about what Israel shouldn't do, how about telling us what you think Israel should do to stop Hezbollah rocket attacks, kidnappings and incursions into Israeli territory?

I'm really interested in hearing your solution to this problem...

I've already gone over this ground earlier today, either in this thread or its sister thread, in a reply to AL about how we dealt - successfully - with our own terrorist problem here in Canada (the FLQ, which committed over 200 acts of violence including bombings, killings, bank roberries, and kidnappings). The UK also eventually was able to eliminate its IRA problem. And in your own country you dealt successfully with the KKK (which under today's broad definition of a "terrorist organization" certainly fits the bill).

Plus on the schedule I am on now it is very late for me so perhaps tomorrow I will think on it some more, if you're not satisfied with what I wrote earlier on the FLQ and the October Crisis.

[scandium]

Skybird: fair enough, my "Jihadwatch" characterization of your reading habits was unjust, I apologize. :up:

[Kurushio]

Shybird....I was impressed by your daily patrol, until I read: dailymirror.co.uk :rotfl:

By the way...my patrol list is all pron..thought everyones was :oops:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

well... one thing for sure Isreal shouldn't do is bomb civilians in an attempt to establish
a buffer zone to protect them against missile launches by the hezbola...

first off, you are gonna cause civilian casualities... innocent civilian casualties (eg. the canadians that got killed)...

second, the hezbola will simply use longer range missiles... as they have just done.
the current missile they're using has a range of about 100km... (or was it miles)...
this sorta invalidates the entire goal of the Israeli military plan... i mean, pretty soon
the buffer zone will extend all the way to Paris...

third... Israelis, of all peoples, should be keenly aware of the immorality of blanket retribution... need i remind you of the consquences many of their grandparents had
to suffer at the hands of the nazis in wwii when they decided to retaliate in against
civilian populace for an attack on a single soldier...

now i hear that they're shelling the banking institutions that they suspect are complicit with terrorists... as if that's gonna actually stop the flow of funds...


now i don't pretend to have the answers... and surely the terror bombings that have
been going on must stop... but surely this sorta blanket response is not the answer...

it has already failed... and without a doubt, in the next few days, it will fail to a degree
that i'm afraid to imagine...

and don't respond that the terrorists are doing it, so it's justified... that simply lowers em to the level
of those they wish to irradicate...


it's like watching something that has already happened taking place, and not being able to stop it...
it's like deja vu... like i've been here before... one morning i will wake up and turn on the news... and the unimaginable will have happened...

i pray that i'm wrong...

**added**

one thing that i do find quite interesting, is the apparent vulnerability of hi tech defensive systems to relatively low tech intrusion... the attack on the Israeli frigate (?)... the impunity of the missiles being aimed at Israeli civilians...


--Mike

[Iceman]

Hunting laser is a bit tough, but it can be done and it's still limited to line-of-sight, because if they try to bank off a cloud or a balloon, a Predator drone will jump out of a bowl of rice and bust a cap in them.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[August]

I've already gone over this ground earlier today, either in this thread or its sister thread, in a reply to AL about how we dealt - successfully - with our own terrorist problem here in Canada (the FLQ, which committed over 200 acts of violence including bombings, killings, bank roberries, and kidnappings). The UK also eventually was able to eliminate its IRA problem. And in your own country you dealt successfully with the KKK (which under today's broad definition of a "terrorist organization" certainly fits the bill).
But all of those examples were/are dissident groups internal to the nation in question. Ok, the Irish aren't English but they still were part of Great Britain and therefore still somewhat an internal national matter.

The Isreali/Hezbollah/Hamas situation is the complete opposite of all of those.

These aren't disaffected or rebellious Israelis we're talking about, we have a foreign group making continued deadly attacks, operating from the soil of a neighboring nation and funded by yet another neighboring nation.

So what are the Israelis to do?

For that matter what would Canada do, if foreign outlaw groups operating out of Greenland or the US started lobbing rockets at Canadian towns and cities, kidnapping Canadian citizens and in general conducting a never ending guerilla war against her? And lets not forget doing all that with the stated intention of driving every Canuck out of your own country.

I know what the US would do.

[Skybird]

I back August. The comparison of the ME conflict and those conflicts you mentioned does not work, Scandium. Totally different stories.

[scandium]

I've already gone over this ground earlier today, either in this thread or its sister thread, in a reply to AL about how we dealt - successfully - with our own terrorist problem here in Canada (the FLQ, which committed over 200 acts of violence including bombings, killings, bank roberries, and kidnappings). The UK also eventually was able to eliminate its IRA problem. And in your own country you dealt successfully with the KKK (which under today's broad definition of a "terrorist organization" certainly fits the bill).
But all of those examples were/are dissident groups internal to the nation in question. Ok, the Irish aren't English but they still were part of Great Britain and therefore still somewhat an internal national matter.

The Isreali/Hezbollah/Hamas situation is the complete opposite of all of those.

These aren't disaffected or rebellious Israelis we're talking about, we have a foreign group making continued deadly attacks, operating from the soil of a neighboring nation and funded by yet another neighboring nation.

So what are the Israelis to do?

For that matter what would Canada do, if foreign outlaw groups operating out of Greenland or the US started lobbing rockets at Canadian towns and cities, kidnapping Canadian citizens and in general conducting a never ending guerilla war against her? And lets not forget doing all that with the stated intention of driving every Canuck out of your own country.

I know what the US would do.

Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers. Israel retaliates by levelling Lebanon without warning or consideration for the tens of thousands of foreign nationals there who its actions, in bombing ports, roads, bridges, and the international airport have cut off from escaping the country - for a week - that they have turned into a warzone, killing 8 Canadian civillians in the process and severely injuring several others. By their own standards, this is an act of war against Canada, and an act of callous disregard by any standard.

But is Canada mobilizing for an all out war with Israel in kind, or even any kind of relatiation? No, we are just trying our best - within the limits imposed upon us by Israel and the IDF - to get our people out. Our own PM even diverted his own military A330 Airbus to Cypress to pick up as many stranded Canadian refugees as possible.

Meanwhile the US has finally landed 1,200 marines into Lebanon to get its own people out - all of this a week after events began, events that - without warning of any kind - turned our citizens into trapped refugees who are at the mercy of the IDF.

Meanwhile 500 German nationals are being evacuated to Syria.

You know, I don't have the solution to what Israel should do, but unlike you folks I'm not going to applaud this callous treatment, and killings, of my own fellow Canadians whose only fault was unknowing being in a place Israel decided without warning to level, trapping them there in the process and putting their lives at risk as it bombed and shelled the country.

While I applaud my PM's personal efforts to get some of our people out, I find our government's otherwise apparent apathy and indifference to Israel's conduct disgusting. I no longer consider them any ally of ours.

And for you August, it is even more ironic given that its your own country's weapons and $3 billion/year subsidy to Israel that is being used to hold your citizens hostage in a foreign country turned warzone by the IDF. And not even a heads up to your embassy in Lebanon before hand so that you might get your people out first; no, instead the warning comes in the form of the bombing of the International airport trapping them there.

That the US has to send 1,200 Marines in a week later to rescue its people from the threat posed to them by one of its, supposedly, close allies and puppet states doesn't bother you August.

Personally I see this and I have to wonder which is country really the puppet state, and which country - just like its citizens - is the one held hostage to events of the other's making.

So to come back to your question about a solution to Israel's problem - why should I give a damn about them or their problems when they so blatantly could give a damn about Canadians only just this week killed 8 of them? I don't, not any more. The hell with them as far as I'm concerned.

[August]

So to come back to your question about a solution to Israel's problem - why should I give a damn about them or their problems when they so blatantly could give a damn about Canadians only just this week killed 8 of them? I don't, not any more. The hell with them as far as I'm concerned.

So, in other words you have no solutions. You're just another monday morning quarterback, critiquing the actions of others from the safety and detachment of your living room back in the land of maple syrup.

Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers. Israel retaliates by levelling Lebanon without warning or consideration for

Nice try at minimizing the problem, but it won't work. The Hez attacks of last week are only the latest in a series that has been going on since the 1970's. Your solution to all this seems to be that the Israelis should just sit back and take it, so your countrymen can travel safely and freely though the Arab world, when the Arabs aren't taking them hostage that is, which i'm sure is somehow the Israelis fault in your eyes as well.

To hell with the Isrealis? To hell with you sir.

[Takeda Shingen]

So, in other words you have no solutions. You're just another monday morning quarterback, critiquing the actions of others from the safety and detachment of your living room back in the land of maple syrup.

So are you. So am I. So are Sky, Neal, tycho, Mike, and even the now-banned Kurushio. None of us have answers for problems without solutions.

[August]

So, in other words you have no solutions. You're just another monday morning quarterback, critiquing the actions of others from the safety and detachment of your living room back in the land of maple syrup.
So are you. So am I. So are Sky, Neal, tycho, Mike, and even the now-banned Kurushio. None of us have answers for problems without solutions.

I think Isreal is doing what they need to do to answer their problems. IMO they have been way to soft on these killers for too long.

[aaken]

Ok, Scandium doesn't have solutions to the Israel-Lebanon conflict. But Israel bombing (and maybe invading) Lebanon is a solution to the problem of rockets hitting Israel?
I don't think so.
Hystorically, Israel already invaded Lebanon in 1982 and occupied its southern half (roughly from the southern border up to Beirut) in order to counter the PLO that was using the country to fire rockets at Israel. The occupation lasted almost 20 years. More or less one could say that Israel is adopting the same kind of response today as it adopted 24 years ago. Since it doesn't seem that the 1982-2000 occupation as done any good to Israel (well, instead of having PLO firing rockets you now have Hezbollah firing rockets), I don't see how a new invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon (or the destruction of Lebanese infrastructure) could benefit Israel today. Hezbollah would retreat in the Bekaa Valley and fire rockets from there. The IDF would move in the Bekaa Valley and Hezbollah would retreat into Syria. Then things would become interesting (provided that a full scale conflict doesn't erupt before IDF reaches the Syrian border). IMO, if all parties involved in this conflict mantain a hard line, without diplomatic interventions, the only end will be a full scale conflict between Israel and Syria (and possibly Iran).

[xrvjorn]

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9467/060716disproporespoonsxsf9.gif


Interesting self image. Reminds me of South Africa in the pre-Mandela years.

[August]

Ok, Scandium doesn't have solutions to the Israel-Lebanon conflict. But Israel bombing (and maybe invading) Lebanon is a solution to the problem of rockets hitting Israel?
I don't think so.
Hystorically, Israel already invaded Lebanon in 1982 and occupied its southern half (roughly from the southern border up to Beirut) in order to counter the PLO that was using the country to fire rockets at Israel. The occupation lasted almost 20 years. More or less one could say that Israel is adopting the same kind of response today as it adopted 24 years ago. Since it doesn't seem that the 1982-2000 occupation as done any good to Israel (well, instead of having PLO firing rockets you now have Hezbollah firing rockets), I don't see how a new invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon (or the destruction of Lebanese infrastructure) could benefit Israel today. Hezbollah would retreat in the Bekaa Valley and fire rockets from there. The IDF would move in the Bekaa Valley and Hezbollah would retreat into Syria. Then things would become interesting (provided that a full scale conflict doesn't erupt before IDF reaches the Syrian border). IMO, if all parties involved in this conflict mantain a hard line, without diplomatic interventions, the only end will be a full scale conflict between Israel and Syria (and possibly Iran).

Maybe so, but what other choice do the Israelis have? If they do nothing then the Hez rockets continue to get fired from the right on the Leb border, and therefore reach much further into Israel than if they've been pushed back away from that border, however temporarily.

The diplomatic route gains them nothing as it seems the rest of the world is quite happy to let groups like Hezbollah, Hamas and others continue to kill Israelis.

It's a nasty situation to be in and i firmly believe Israel is doing the only thing she can do.

[Skybird]

Strange feeling to agree with August so often in such a short time. :lol:

[aaken]

Ok, Scandium doesn't have solutions to the Israel-Lebanon conflict. But Israel bombing (and maybe invading) Lebanon is a solution to the problem of rockets hitting Israel?
I don't think so.
Hystorically, Israel already invaded Lebanon in 1982 and occupied its southern half (roughly from the southern border up to Beirut) in order to counter the PLO that was using the country to fire rockets at Israel. The occupation lasted almost 20 years. More or less one could say that Israel is adopting the same kind of response today as it adopted 24 years ago. Since it doesn't seem that the 1982-2000 occupation as done any good to Israel (well, instead of having PLO firing rockets you now have Hezbollah firing rockets), I don't see how a new invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon (or the destruction of Lebanese infrastructure) could benefit Israel today. Hezbollah would retreat in the Bekaa Valley and fire rockets from there. The IDF would move in the Bekaa Valley and Hezbollah would retreat into Syria. Then things would become interesting (provided that a full scale conflict doesn't erupt before IDF reaches the Syrian border). IMO, if all parties involved in this conflict mantain a hard line, without diplomatic interventions, the only end will be a full scale conflict between Israel and Syria (and possibly Iran).

Maybe so, but what other choice do the Israelis have? If they do nothing then the Hez rockets continue to get fired from the right on the Leb border, and therefore reach much further into Israel than if they've been pushed back away from that border, however temporarily.

The diplomatic route gains them nothing as it seems the rest of the world is quite happy to let groups like Hezbollah, Hamas and others continue to kill Israelis.

It's a nasty situation to be in and i firmly believe Israel is doing the only thing she can do.

As I've said previously, more then bombing Lebanon into the stone age, IMO it would have been more productive to hit directly Syria, who is supporting Hezbollah and who has pushed its own anti-israeli agenda in Lebanon for too long already. In my view Lebanon has been victmized by Syrian interference and is now victimized by the violent Israeli reaction to Hezbollah. It is true that Hezbollah is a Lebanese movement but let's not forget that it is Syria who's behind it and given Lebanon proven inability to control its own territory after years of civil war and foreign occupation, the actual turn of events seems to be like a further irony of fate. As I said before, if Israel wishes to proceed with the iron fist approach, sooner or later a full scale war is bound to happen. But since ultimately the problem is between Syria and Israel, I think Israel should have retaliated against Syria rather than Lebanon. It is a scary perspective but at least it makes more sense. At least to me.

[August]

As I've said previously, more then bombing Lebanon into the stone age, IMO it would have been more productive to hit directly Syria, who is supporting Hezbollah and who has pushed its own anti-israeli agenda in Lebanon for too long already. In my view Lebanon has been victmized by Syrian interference and is now victimized by the violent Israeli reaction to Hezbollah. It is true that Hezbollah is a Lebanese movement but let's not forget that it is Syria who's behind it and given Lebanon proven inability to control its own territory after years of civil war and foreign occupation, the actual turn of events seems to be like a further irony of fate. As I said before, if Israel wishes to proceed with the iron fist approach, sooner or later a full scale war is bound to happen. But since ultimately the problem is between Syria and Israel, I think Israel should have retaliated against Syria rather than Lebanon. It is a scary perspective but at least it makes more sense. At least to me.

Well I agree that Syria should be the ultimate Isreali target but before that can happen they would have to reduce or eliminate the Hezbollah presence on their flank.

[scandium]

So, in other words you have no solutions. You're just another monday morning quarterback, critiquing the actions of others from the safety and detachment of your living room back in the land of maple syrup.Those actions killed, without warning or provocation, 8 Canadians who had no more idea this was coming than anyone else outside of Israel. So yeah, you know I think that gives me the right to be critical. And who do you think I am to come up with solutions, and why do I have to come up with solutions when I'm not the one doing the killing on either side?

Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers. Israel retaliates by levelling Lebanon without warning or consideration for
Nice try at minimizing the problem, but it won't work.
Minimizing events? I stated precisely the events that happened to which the Israeli PM stated were "an act of war" even as, on the same day of these events, Israel bombed the Lebanon International Airport and began the process of leveling the country.

The Hez attacks of last week are only the latest in a series that has been going on since the 1970's. Your solution to all this seems to be that the Israelis should just sit back and take it, so your countrymen can travel safely and freely though the Arab world, when the Arabs aren't taking them hostage that is, which i'm sure is somehow the Israelis fault in your eyes as well.
I didn't say they should just "sit back and take it", that's a strawman and a false dichotomy, and Lebanon is not the "Arab world" and its not only 16,000-40,000 Canadians who were there, but also 25,000 Americans and perhaps upward of 40-50,000 Europeans, several thousand Australians, and thousands more from other parts of the world outside the "Arab world".

As to the issue of fault, if you know anything at all about the region then you should realize there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides, and that Israel's hands are far from clean - in Palestine alone its kidnapped 10s of thousands, most of whom have been held without trial, and killed 4-5 Palestinians, mostly civilians, for every 1 Israeli killed. In Lebanon its been killing, again mostly civilians, at a ratio of 10:1 for every Israeli killed (half of whom are civilian, half of whom are uniformed military) and is the regional power, not non-existant Palestine, certainly not defenceless Lebanon, and not even Syria or Iran could stand up to it. And this is not even taking into account the unconditional support it enjoys from its Super power ally that none of the other regions do. But leveling Lebanon without warning is the only possible response it could have taken eh?

Those are simple facts, you can spin them however you want but nothing the Canadians in Lebanon did warranted their deaths while Israel not only gave no opportunity for them to leave before they began leveling the place, they also deliberately cut off as many avenues of escape as possible, trapping them there and terrorizing them with a hail of bombs and artillery as the IDF systemically ripped the country apart and continues to do so.

That you are so indifferent to the shared plight of the 25,000 of your own Americans who were forced by the IDF to endure the same deliberate collective punishment and suffering Israel inflicted upon the Lebanonese simply amazes me.

Disagraceful.

[tycho102]

It doesn't help that Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, United Arab Emirates, and Iran pay Top Dollar to the surviving families of bomber jihadists. Last time I had heard anything, the Saudi's had funneled $4 billion to Pali bombers in the past 5 years.

Paying someone to wage war for you, while being able to deny any involvement, and thus responsibility.

I'm getting tired of this non-state actor stuff. I'm ready to start holding countries accountable for the bastards that live within them, whether they want to take responsibity or not. I'm talking about the Mexican and Columbian drug cartels just as much as hamas and hezbollah.

I'm also getting tired of the old media interpreting "Allah" as "God". Yahweh isn't the same as Allah. The religions are actually different, regardless if liberal atheists want to equivalate all of them for sake of moral simplicity.

[August]

...why do I have to come up with solutions when I'm not the one doing the killing on either side?
That's never stopped you from having a very detailed and lengthy opinion on what you think the Isrealis are doing wrong and why. It just seems to me that you should have at least an idea what they should do. If not why should anyone listen to your opinions at all?

Re minimizing events: You said " Hezbollah fires rockets at an Israeli town and kidnaps two soldiers" as if it were just a one time attack against a single town and those are the only two Israelis they've ever harmed. Well what you either fail to recognize, or in your bias refuse to recognize, is that this is something the Israelis have been dealing with for decades.

You can jab a stick at a bear for only so long before he turns around and strikes back at you. Anyone else who ignores this situation and puts themselves between the jabber and the bear has little justification to cry foul if they get hurt when it happens. No warning? They had 20 years of warnings.

You want to know what I find disgraceful? It's how people like your 16 thousand Canadians and my 25 thousand fellow Americans can go on vacation and work in a country like Lebanon which allows murderers and thugs to attack innocent civilians in a neighboring country.

[xrvjorn]

I'm also getting tired of the old media interpreting "Allah" as "God". Yahweh isn't the same as Allah. The religions are actually different, regardless if liberal atheists want to equivalate all of them for sake of moral simplicity.

Are you equally tired of people referring to the protestant and catholic object of worship by the same name, "God"? The differences between those religions are big enough to have been the cause of wars and massacres.

Be prepared to keep getting tired ad infinitum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

[xrvjorn]

It just seems to me that you should have at least an idea what they should do. If not why should anyone listen to your opinions at all?

Because even people who do not claim to have all the answers are entitled to opinions. OTOH, many people who claim to actually have the answers, are airbags.

I hope that answers your question.

[joea]

It just seems to me that you should have at least an idea what they should do. If not why should anyone listen to your opinions at all?
Because even people who do not claim to have all the answers are entitled to opinions. OTOH, many people who claim to actually have the answers, are airbags.

I hope that answers your question.

:D Good point. :up:

[joea]

You want to know what I find disgraceful? It's how people like your 16 thousand Canadians and my 25 thousand fellow Americans can go on vacation and work in a country like Lebanon which allows murderers and thugs to attack innocent civilians in a neighboring country.


August, you know a lot of those people, I can say with certainty most of those Canadians (can't speak for the Americans but think it's the same) are actually of Lebanese origin or even first generation immigrants. So they had a choice of going on holiday to Hawaii or Tiajuana and for some bizzare reason decided to go to the coutnry were many still had family. Most of these are legal productive immigrants btw.

I recall (personally for 1980, otherwise read) our governments were very attentive to the concerns of citizens of East European descent during the Cold War.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

not only that... but if you'll trace your dna back more than a few generations... you'll find that all Europeans are descended from that region...

all Europeans are of oriental extract...

this is fact... accept it or not...

so the idea that they are any 'less' Canadian because they weren't white Canadaian, or Euro canadian is even more absurd...


--Mike

[August]

It just seems to me that you should have at least an idea what they should do. If not why should anyone listen to your opinions at all?
Because even people who do not claim to have all the answers are entitled to opinions. OTOH, many people who claim to actually have the answers, are airbags.

I hope that answers your question.
:D Good point. :up:

Well isn't claiming to know what one group or another is doing wrong a sort of answer too?

The reason i ask is there are plenty of people on these forums who feel qualified enough to go into great detail about what they think the Israelis are doing wrong but you never, ever, see them offer any ideas on what Israel could do right to end terror attacks on it's civilians.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

sometimes August, the obvious thing should *NOT* be done, is certainlyan easier to thing to see than what should, or could be done...

the large scale bombing of civilians in Lenbanon is obviously easy to see as the thing *NOT* to do... therefor, don't be surprised as it becomes the focal point for comment...

this in no way justifies the killing of civilians on the israeli side either... i have associates who have family over there, and my sympathies are without reservation with them...

and you are right... there are a lot of unqualified and misinformed experts offering up solutions and opinions around here... welcome to the club...

--Mike

[August]

the large scale bombing of civilians in Lenbanon is obviously easy to see as the thing *NOT* to do... therefor, don't be surprised as it becomes the focal point for comment...
Except it isn't large scale bombing of civilians now is it? If you have an enemy hiding behind the skirts of women and children some of them are going to get hurt no matter how much you try to avoid it. You cannot refuse to attack that enemy because it only validates the tactic of using civilians as human shields, but if you do, the world complains about the resulting civilian deaths. A Hobsons choice.

Of course that is worlds different than the large scale deliberate and repeated attacks on Israeli civilians that their enemy seems to favor.

So again I ask. What is Israel to do, if not what they are doing?

[SkvyWvr]

NOOOOOO! I can take Bruce Willis, but not Ben Affleck

I knew there was a reason why they got the shuttle working again recently.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000G3PA.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif

I could however deal with Liv Tyler :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[SkvyWvr]

To Scandium
Why are you whining so much over sad but accendental death of 8 Canadians when the very org. that started all this killed 200+ Americans in the Marine barracks bombing in the early 80s. I helped pull body parts out of the ruins for a week, oh and by the way, 18 Canadian soliders died there as well.

We Americans have come under fire quite a bit (USS Cole, Embassies, 9-11). Where were you when we asked for support. I'll tell you where, booing an American pre-highschool hockey team in Toranto because we attacked the Taliban, as if those kids had anything to do with the political situation. Now that was disgraceful
:down: :down: :down: :stare:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Except it isn't large scale bombing of civilians now is it? If you have an enemy hiding behind the skirts of women and children some of them are going to get hurt no matter how much you try to avoid it.
then you must try harder... put yourself in the shoes of one of those innocent women or children... your viewpoint might change 180 degrees if you were one of them...

and it *IS* large scale bombing... ground and air based... don't delude yourself into believing otherwise... if such miliary action were aimed at where you lived, i'm sure you'd realize this...

and by the way... how many have to die before it is termed large scale bombing... two... three... ten people...

on both sides, how many must die before all this is seen as savagery in its purist form...

So again I ask. What is Israel to do, if not what they are doing?
i am not Israeli... therefore i would not pretend to lecture them on what to do...

like i said above... what *NOT* to do is usually a more obvious case...

weren't you listening...


besides... the question i would ask would be more along the grounds of what should they all do to preserve the peace...

that illustrates the key difference between me and you...

you would try to justify the killing and wounding of innocent civilians as a reasonable response by a civilized peoples... this makes you no better than the very terrorists you aspouse to fight... different sides of the same coin... each one steadfast in his right to take innocent life...


--Mike

[August]

besides... the question i would ask would be more along the grounds of what should they all do to preserve the peace...

that illustrates the key difference between me and you...

Peace? How do you preserve "peace" with an enemy who's often repeated intention is the complete destruction of ones country and citizens?

you would try to justify the murder of innocent civilians as a reasonable response by a civilized peoples... this makes you no better than the very terrorists you aspouse to fight... different sides of the same coin... each one steadfast in his right to take innocent life...

I justify nothing. I just see a vast difference between one side who targets enemy combatants and causes civilian casualties as an unwanted side effect of that and another side who deliberately attacks enemy civilians, while avoiding direct contact with their forces by hiding behind his own women and children.

War is a terrible, ugly thing and civilians have been caught in the crossfire of every war man has ever fought. As the human population grows this will continue, but to fail to make the distinction between unintentional civilian casualties and using civilians as a sort of human sandbag is the real crime.

Maybe this is where you and i really differ.

[SkvyWvr]

I justify nothing. I just see a vast difference between one side who targets enemy combatants and causes civilian casualties as an unwanted side effect of that and another side who deliberately attacks enemy civilians, while avoiding direct contact with their forces by hiding behind his own women and children.

War is a terrible, ugly thing and civilians have been caught in the crossfire of every war man has ever fought. As the human population grows this will continue, but to fail to make the distinction between unintentional civilian casualties and using civilians as a sort of human sandbag is the real crime.

Bravo August!! I couldn't have put it better. :up: :up: :up:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

How do you preserve "peace" with an enemy who's often repeated intention is the complete destruction of ones country and citizens?
the same way that Ghandi preserved the peace when the English were slaughtering unarmed Indian civilians over there not too long ago...

the same way that the peace was achieved in the Catholic/Protestant violence in the UK not that long ago...

history is repleat with examples of men who were soild enough to see that the differences between men pale in comparison to the things that we all have in common...

if you can't see this, then you are indeed blind to the reality that your very own god professes to you...

and you are all doomed...


SkyvyWvr... just because you couldn't have put it any better only means that you suffer from the same dissilusionment and blindness that anyone who would take such a stance does... i've just put it a lot better... read what i just said above...


--Mike

[scandium]

To Scandium
Why are you whining so much over sad but accendental death of 8 Canadians when the very org. that started all this killed 200+ Americans in the Marine barracks bombing in the early 80s. I helped pull body parts out of the ruins for a week, oh and by the way, 18 Canadian soliders died there as well.
Fine, I really shouldn't have to answer a stupid question like this, but I'll humour you anyway. If we're going to go back 20 years and use your logic:

Why were Americans "whining" when 3,000 Americans were killed on 9/11? After all the guy who was responsible for that, Bin Laden, was your "freedom fighter" in Afghanistan 20 years ago when you were providing him with weapons, financing, and training right? Not only that, but most of the hijackers lived in the U.S. for months and months before hand and even got their flight training there. So why "whine" when the mastermind you train turns on you using Jihadists living in your own country and who received their flight training from American instructors? I mean really, its been years now and you and still bitch and moan about 9/11 and act as if it it were the first act of terrorism in the world and are oblivious of your own complicity in it; so using your logic: GET OVER IT.

And why were Americans "whining" 4 years ago about Saddam Hussein's WMDs and humanitarian record when 20 years he was America's man in the ME, a "stabalizing force" in the region who you were so fond of that Saint Reagan sent Rumsfeld to Baghdad to begin the process of normalizing relations with Iraq - a normalization that allowed him to purchase the necessary chemical weapons precursors that were then used on the Kurds - which at the ttime, the US not only turned a blind eye to, but made it a point to kill a resolution in the UN condemning the act.

We Americans have come under fire quite a bit (USS Cole, Embassies, 9-11). Where were you when we asked for support. I'll tell you where, booing an American pre-highschool hockey team in Toranto because we attacked the Taliban, as if those kids had anything to do with the political situation. Now that was disgraceful
:down: :down: :down: :stare:Where were we during 9/11? We were securing American airspace in cooperation with our US allies at NORAD and diverting the inboud flight traffic that was judged too dangerous to land in the US to Canadian Airports. Then we went to war with you in Afghanistan where we've been ever since.

What is disgraceful is your willingness to use your damned ignorance to morally equivocate on Canadian deaths while trying to bludgeon us over 9/11 when we were actually the first to come to your aid from the moment it happened (which we did again during the NOLA catastrophe and on and on).

[SkvyWvr]

To Scandium
Why are you whining so much over sad but accendental death of 8 Canadians when the very org. that started all this killed 200+ Americans in the Marine barracks bombing in the early 80s. I helped pull body parts out of the ruins for a week, oh and by the way, 18 Canadian soliders died there as well.
Fine, I really shouldn't have to answer a stupid question like this, but I'll humour you anyway. If we're going to go back 20 years and use your logic:

Why were Americans "whining" when 3,000 Americans were killed on 9/11? After all the guy who was responsible for that, Bin Laden, was your "freedom fighter" in Afghanistan 20 years ago when you were providing him with weapons, financing, and training right? Not only that, but most of the hijackers lived in the U.S. for months and months before hand and even got their flight training there. So why "whine" when the mastermind you train turns on you using Jihadists living in your own country and who received their flight training from American instructors? I mean really, its been years now and you and still bitch and moan about 9/11 and act as if it it were the first act of terrorism in the world and are oblivious of your own complicity in it; so using your logic: GET OVER IT.

And why were Americans "whining" 4 years ago about Saddam Hussein's WMDs and humanitarian record when 20 years he was America's man in the ME, a "stabalizing force" in the region who you were so fond of that Saint Reagan sent Rumsfeld to Baghdad to begin the process of normalizing relations with Iraq - a normalization that allowed him to purchase the necessary chemical weapons precursors that were then used on the Kurds - which at the ttime, the US not only turned a blind eye to, but made it a point to kill a resolution in the UN condemning the act.

We Americans have come under fire quite a bit (USS Cole, Embassies, 9-11). Where were you when we asked for support. I'll tell you where, booing an American pre-highschool hockey team in Toranto because we attacked the Taliban, as if those kids had anything to do with the political situation. Now that was disgraceful
:down: :down: :down: :stare:Where were we during 9/11? We were securing American airspace in cooperation with our US allies at NORAD and diverting the inboud flight traffic that was judged too dangerous to land in the US to Canadian Airports. Then we went to war with you in Afghanistan where we've been ever since.

What is disgraceful is your willingness to use your damned ignorance to morally equivocate on Canadian deaths while trying to bludgeon us over 9/11 when we were actually the first to come to your aid from the moment it happened (which we did again during the NOLA catastrophe and on and on).

You missed the point. The terrorists you seem to support have been killing for quite sometime and it's about time to deal with them in the only manner they understand. Collateral damage is a fact when bullets start to fly. And the thought that our northern brothers were "securing" our airspace is comical.

[SkvyWvr]

How do you preserve "peace" with an enemy who's often repeated intention is the complete destruction of ones country and citizens?
the same way that Ghandi preserved the peace when the English were slaughtering unarmed Indian civilians over there not too long ago...

the same way that the peace was achieved in the Catholic/Protestant violence in the UK not that long ago...

history is repleat with examples of men who were soild enough to see that the differences between men pale in comparison to the things that we all have in common...

if you can't see this, then you are indeed blind to the reality that your very own god professes to you...

and you are all doomed...

--Mike

Please don't put on the white collar. Ghandi had the advantage of dealing with a nation that accutally cared about wrold opinion. These animals the IDF faces don't.

History is also replete with examples of how doing nothing has cost millions of lives (the little Austrian with the funny lip hair for one)

IMO what has to be understood by the world, is that we are and have been in WWIII for several years and the only way to win is with the enemies total destruction.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

The terrorists you seem to support have been killing for quite sometime and it's about time to deal with them in the only manner they understand.
1- Tim McViegh was a born and bred, all american boy...
2- What about the 'terrorists' in Northern Ireland... same thing apply to them?
3- who exactly are these terrorists... can you identify and target any one of them in particular... as opposed to bombing civilian urban areas... so far, the civilian penalty has by a large degree exceed the number of actual combatants... this you see as correct??!!

don't mistake my viewpoint as support for terrorists... if you do, then you surely don't know me...

a few highly motivated men... that's all you need... all this would be over before you know it...


@ SkvyWvr
Ghandi had the advantage of dealing with a nation that accutally cared about wrold opinion.that didn't seem to stop some of the most dispicable acts of savagery though, did it... and only someone with a 'unique' view of what's right and wrong could ever see this as being an advantage...

History is also replete with examples of how doing nothing has cost millions of lives (the little Austrian with the funny lip hair for one) yes, indeed... perhaps if post WWI Germany was treated a bit differently by the terms of the treaties that ended the great war to end all wars... the mustachiode paper hanger you refer to wouldn't have even come to power... and WWII in Europe might never have happened...

with every word you say, you help add validity to my viewpoint... and make yours seem even more absurd... i should be thanking you...

to suggest that no action and the wrong action are to some degree better than one or the other is surely the height of absurdity...

--Mike

[SkvyWvr]

The terrorists you seem to support have been killing for quite sometime and it's about time to deal with them in the only manner they understand.
1- Tim McViegh was a born and bred, all american boy...
2- What about the 'terrorists' in Northern Ireland... same thing apply to them?
3- who exactly are these terrorists... can you identify and target any one of them in particular... as opposed to bombing civilian urban areas... so far, the civilian penalty has by a large degree exceed the number of actual combatants... this you see as correct??!!

don't mistake my viewpoint as support for terrorists... if you do, then you surely don't know me...

a few highly motivated men... that's all you need... all this would be over before you know it...

--Mike

I agree with the "Hit" concept but then Isreal would have to deal with a global outc ry about "political assinations". And let me be clearer, terrorists I mean Islamic Facists. These people have been brain washed into thinking their faith allows for the murder of all who don't worship on their terms. Also let me say I'm sorry about the whining crack, world politics always bring out the worse in me. :oops:

[scandium]

You missed the point. The terrorists you seem to support have been killing for quite sometime and it's about time to deal with them in the only manner they understand. Collateral damage is a fact when bullets start to fly. And the thought that our northern brothers were "securing" our airspace is comical.
You don't have a point.

1. I do not support terrorism anywhere, in any form. Never have, never will. Accusing me of such is simple ad hominem attack, nothing more.

2. Collateral damage is such a nice cuddly way of of referring to killing civilians, including children, isn't it? That aside, it can be avoided, or at least minimized. Did the IDF take such measures when it began bombing and shelling Lebanon? It doesn't look that way to me given that their attack came without warning of any kind, and that by blowing up the airport, bridges, and roads, they trapped a hundred thousand or so foreign nationals there, preventing them from getting out, and making them an unwitting victim of a conflict they had no hand in.

3. You musn't know what the NORAD accronym I mentioned refers to. Here, from their website:

"The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes ensuring air sovereignty and air defense of the airspace of Canada and the United States."

"NORAD is a bi-national combined Canadian and American military command, with an integrated mix of Canadian and American personnel at all levels. The commander of NORAD is an American officer who is responsible to the Canadian and U.S. governments through the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States. The appointment of the Commander of NORAD must be approved by both the Canadian and U.S. governments. The current Commander is U.S. Navy Admiral T.J. Keating, who also commands the United States Northern Command. The Canadian Deputy Commander of NORAD is Lieutenant-General Eric A. Findley.

There are three NORAD regions: Canadian NORAD Region (CANR), Alaskan NORAD Region (ANR) and Continental U.S. NORAD Region (CONR). Each of the three NORAD regions has a similar structure. ANR and CONR have American Commanders and Canadian Deputy Commanders. CANR has a Canadian Commander and an American Deputy Commander."

Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to parse it out for you sentence by sentence? Now a history lesson for you: at 9:45 AM on 9/11 the FAA grounded all American flights and closed its airspace. At that point about 500 flights were en route to the US, and the Canadian Transport Minister shut down our own airspace but gave permission for US bound International flights to land here. Many flights were able to return to their original departure point, but in all 255 flights were diverted to 15 diifferent Canadian airports where we safely landed them at the rate of about 1 or 2 per minute. NORAD also was involved by intercepting and escorting certain flights, using both US and Canadian fighters, including one that had been bound for Anchorage Alaska and was believed to have been hijacked.

But that's just facts and history, don't let it get in the way of your righteous ignorance and hypocracy.

[SkvyWvr]

You missed the point. The terrorists you seem to support have been killing for quite sometime and it's about time to deal with them in the only manner they understand. Collateral damage is a fact when bullets start to fly. And the thought that our northern brothers were "securing" our airspace is comical.
You don't have a point.

1. I do not support terrorism anywhere, in any form. Never have, never will. Accusing me of such is simple ad hominem attack, nothing more.

2. Collateral damage is such a nice cuddly way of of referring to killing civilians, including children, isn't it? That aside, it can be avoided, or at least minimized. Did the IDF take such measures when it began bombing and shelling Lebanon? It doesn't look that way to me given that their attack came without warning of any kind, and that by blowing up the airport, bridges, and roads, they trapped a hundred thousand or so foreign nationals there, preventing them from getting out, and making them an unwitting victim of a conflict they had no hand in.

3. You musn't know what the NORAD accronym I mentioned refers to. Here, from their website:

"The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, utilizing mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes ensuring air sovereignty and air defense of the airspace of Canada and the United States."

"NORAD is a bi-national combined Canadian and American military command, with an integrated mix of Canadian and American personnel at all levels. The commander of NORAD is an American officer who is responsible to the Canadian and U.S. governments through the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the United States. The appointment of the Commander of NORAD must be approved by both the Canadian and U.S. governments. The current Commander is U.S. Navy Admiral T.J. Keating, who also commands the United States Northern Command. The Canadian Deputy Commander of NORAD is Lieutenant-General Eric A. Findley.

There are three NORAD regions: Canadian NORAD Region (CANR), Alaskan NORAD Region (ANR) and Continental U.S. NORAD Region (CONR). Each of the three NORAD regions has a similar structure. ANR and CONR have American Commanders and Canadian Deputy Commanders. CANR has a Canadian Commander and an American Deputy Commander."

Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to parse it out for you sentence by sentence? Now a history lesson for you: at 9:45 AM on 9/11 the FAA grounded all American flights and closed its airspace. At that point about 500 flights were en route to the US, and the Canadian Transport Minister shut down our own airspace but gave permission for US bound International flights to land here. Many flights were able to return to their original departure point, but in all 255 flights were diverted to 15 diifferent Canadian airports where we safely landed them at the rate of about 1 or 2 per minute. NORAD also was involved by intercepting and escorting certain flights, using both US and Canadian fighters, including one that had been bound for Anchorage Alaska and was believed to have been hijacked.

But that's just facts and history, don't let it get in the way of your righteous ignorance and hypocracy.



I might be ignorant but I don't need a lesson on an outfit with such heavy reliance on the American military. As for my hypocracy, I don't have any because inspite of what you say.... GO ISRAEL!!!:up:

[August]

the same way that Ghandi preserved the peace when the English were slaughtering unarmed Indian civilians over there not too long ago...

the same way that the peace was achieved in the Catholic/Protestant violence in the UK not that long ago...

The problem with both of those comparisons is that neither the English or the Irish factions advocated the complete destruction of their enemy down to the last man, woman and child. Both had significant numbers of their own people who were willing to live and let live and they were the ones who ultimately reigned in the more bloodthirsty among them.

In the Arab/Israeli conflict only one side advocates this, but unless the other side is also willing there can be no peace.

[Skybird]

Scandium,

when you fight against an enemy that is intentionally hiding in civilian infrastructure, you cannot avoid collateral damage then. You then only have the choice to fight, or not to fight at all. for certain reasons, that may have to do with the fact that Israeli civilians do not fall victim to collateral damage since years, but are intentionally targetted, Israel seem to be determined to let itself not get hindred by the presence of civilians to shoot at it's enemies in an attempt to weaken them and drive them off. the sideeffects of this - collateral damage, the killing of civilians and the destruction of the infrastructure - may be sad and grim and ugly - the alternative would be not to fight at all. So is war. Fairness has nothing to do with. There is no way to fight a war in a human way.

Or do you have a realistic recipe how to disarm Hesbollah and make them stopping to attack Israeli civilians time and again? Israel is about trying to destroy as much of Hezbollahs weapons stockpiles as possible, and drive them away from it's borders. That is the real goal of this operation, the kidnapped soldiers are just a "cover-up". Diplomacy has failed since years and decades. economical and diplomatic deals have failed. EU's wishful thinking has failed. Good will has failed. Willingness for compromises has failed. Offers of land, and coexistence have failed. Now they try it by war, in self-defense. 1100 Israelis have been murdered on their own streets since the beginning of the second intifada. I think that is reason enough not to ignore the murderes anylonger, showing tough reactions, and then, finally, war. It's self-defense, by the motto: "Better them, then us." I cannot criticise them for that attitude.

The alternative would be "business as usual", leave things as they have been during the last plenty of years. And that may only be a tempting option as long as one does not live in Israel.

[scandium]

Scandium,

when you fight against an enemy that is intentionally hiding in civilian infrastructure, you cannot avoid collateral damage then. You then only have the choice to fight, or not to fight at all. for certain reasons, that may have to do with the fact that Israeli civilians do not fall victim to collateral damage since years, but are intentionally targetted, Israel seem to be determined to let itself not get hindred by the presence of civilians to shoot at it's enemies in an attempt to weaken them and drive them off. the sideeffects of this - collateral damage, the killing of civilians and the destruction of the infrastructure - may be sad and grim and ugly - the alternative would be not to fight at all. So is war. Fairness has nothing to do with. There is no way to fight a war in a human way.

Or do you have a realistic recipe how to disarm Hesbollah and make them stopping to attack Israeli civilians time and again? Israel is about trying to destroy as much of Hezbollahs weapons stockpiles as possible, and drive them away from it's borders. That is the real goal of this operation, the kidnapped soldiers are just a "cover-up". Diplomacy has failed since years and decades. economical and diplomatic deals have failed. EU's wishful thinking has failed. Good will has failed. Willingness for compromises has failed. Offers of land, and coexistence have failed. Now they try it by war, in self-defense. 1100 Israelis have been murdered on their own streets since the beginning of the second intifada. I think that is reason enough not to ignore the murderes anylonger, showing tough reactions, and then, finally, war. It's self-defense, by the motto: "Better them, then us." I cannot criticise them for that attitude.

The alternative would be "business as usual", leave things as they have been during the last plenty of years. And that may only be a tempting option as long as one does not live in Israel.
I have no sympathy for the murderers. They deserve whatever they have coming to them. And the "business as usual" is a big part of the problem on both sides, no disagreement there either, else this would have ended long ago.

As to the rest, I have already made my case and cannot add anymore to it Skybird. I don't have any solutions, but that doesn't deny me the right to believe that the "solution" being caried out now will ultimately do more harm than good, both in the short term and the long term. Perhaps I am right, perhaps I am wrong; I make no pretense at being prophetic either, I only give my opinion.

Time will tell, all you and I can do is stand on the sidelines and see how things play out.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

@ August...
The problem with both of those comparisons is that neither the English or the Irish factions advocated the complete destruction of their enemy down to the last man, woman and child. you really need an education dear friend... or maybe you are just trying to blow smoke in my eyes... Sinn Fein means "Ourselves Alone" in the Gaelic language... now if that isn't plain enough for you to understand, then, i dunno what else to say...

secondly, a short quote from the Council On Foriegn Relations, a non partisan organization for information analysis...
Is the IRA a terrorist group?
Not anymore, according to the State Department, which considered the IRA to be a terrorist organization as late as 2000.
so as late as 2000, these people were considered terrorists... but not by you huh... heheheheheee... weeeeee...

it's plain to see, you are are mincing words and bending over backwards to try and make a non existant point...

what are you saying... these terrorists were nicer terrorists than the middle eastern terrorists... so it's not as bad... right... nicer terrorists is what you'd try to convince me of... ahahahahahahaaaaaaa...

you viewpoint would be laughable if it weren't so seriously believable by some.

Both had significant numbers of their own people who were willing to live and let live so are there Israelis, Palestinians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc that would live together... where's the difference... again you make no sense whatsoever...

In the Arab/Israeli conflict
and here is where your problem lies... you see it as Israel vs the Arabs... all of those Arabs... your predjudices and intolerance blinds you to the reality of the situation and events as they actually exist...

i thought the current conflict was Israel against Hezbola... obviously, you see the same events, and you see Israel fighting the entire dark hordes of terrorist Arabs...

my god... if there was a person who needed better eyes...

your own words make shreds of your position... your own words show your ignorance of the facts... your own words demonstrate , without a doubt, your deep seeded predjudice and intolerance...

your own words are my first best source of validation of everything i propose... and are your own worst enemy to what you say...


--Mike

[August]

Scandium,

when you fight against an enemy that is intentionally hiding in civilian infrastructure, you cannot avoid collateral damage then. You then only have the choice to fight, or not to fight at all. for certain reasons, that may have to do with the fact that Israeli civilians do not fall victim to collateral damage since years, but are intentionally targetted, Israel seem to be determined to let itself not get hindred by the presence of civilians to shoot at it's enemies in an attempt to weaken them and drive them off. the sideeffects of this - collateral damage, the killing of civilians and the destruction of the infrastructure - may be sad and grim and ugly - the alternative would be not to fight at all. So is war. Fairness has nothing to do with. There is no way to fight a war in a human way.

Or do you have a realistic recipe how to disarm Hesbollah and make them stopping to attack Israeli civilians time and again? Israel is about trying to destroy as much of Hezbollahs weapons stockpiles as possible, and drive them away from it's borders. That is the real goal of this operation, the kidnapped soldiers are just a "cover-up". Diplomacy has failed since years and decades. economical and diplomatic deals have failed. EU's wishful thinking has failed. Good will has failed. Willingness for compromises has failed. Offers of land, and coexistence have failed. Now they try it by war, in self-defense. 1100 Israelis have been murdered on their own streets since the beginning of the second intifada. I think that is reason enough not to ignore the murderes anylonger, showing tough reactions, and then, finally, war. It's self-defense, by the motto: "Better them, then us." I cannot criticise them for that attitude.

The alternative would be "business as usual", leave things as they have been during the last plenty of years. And that may only be a tempting option as long as one does not live in Israel.

Well said.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

when you fight against an enemy that is intentionally hiding in civilian infrastructure, you cannot avoid collateral damage then. You then only have the choice to fight, or not to fight at all.

fighting... and lobbing shells into a civilian population are two different things... surely you can't be that thick headed as to not realize this simple fact...

no, that wasn't well said at all... that was just plain stupidly said... sorry, if that sounds a lil rough... but surely you must be of the age where you can discern the difference between what you say, what you imagine, and what you mean to say...

--Mike

[August]

your own words make shreds of your position... your own words show your ignorance of the facts... you are my best source of validation of everything i propose...

Yeah whatever Mike. As bad as the IRA was they never held a patch to what the enemies of Israel (a better term for you than Arab?) have done and continue to do.

But what exactly do you propose? It's nice to say "Be like Ghandi and it'll all work out" but in this reality any Middle Eastern Ghandi, or Betty Williams, or Mairead Corrigan, is kidnapped and beheaded live on Al Jaziera. Ten seconds later the world forgets their names and goes back to damning the Jews for having the nerve to defend themselves.

This is the crux of the problem. There is NO Muslim version of the Women for Peace or Community for Peace People, at least not one which has any sway over the actions of the militants and no support among the Muslim community to start one either.

The origins of what became known as 'the Northern Ireland peace process' can be dated to the signing of the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/aia/aiadoc.htm)between the British and Irish governments. The Agreement recognised that Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom could not change without the consent of the majority of its citizens and gave the Irish government a consultative (undefined) role in the affairs of Northern Ireland. The most important impact of the Agreement, however, was that it set in train a permanent, institutionalised co-operation between the two governments dedicated to achieving a durable settlementin Northern Ireland. It obliged the British and Irish governments to at least have policies towards Northern Ireland; something which had not always been the case over the previous decade and a half. Central to the subsequent peace process was that both governments worked on the understanding that if conditions of political and constitutional certainty could be engineered, and validated by substantial sections of both communities, then political violence would become increasingly difficult to sustain.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/bac.htm

Note the bolded part. Show me where both sides are working on understanding. Show me where both sides are striving for a durable settlement. All i see is one side, Israel, making concessions only to have them thrown back in their faces.

In short your Ghandi approach isn't valid in this situation.

[August]

fighting... and lobbing shells into a civilian population are two different things... surely you can't be that thick headed as to not realize this simple fact...

Are you seriously saying that Israel would still be "lobbing" those shells at the civilian population if there weren't Hezbollah weren't hiding behind and amongst them?

[Skybird]

I have no sympathy for the murderers. They deserve whatever they have coming to them. And the "business as usual" is a big part of the problem on both sides, no disagreement there either, else this would have ended long ago.

As to the rest, I have already made my case and cannot add anymore to it Skybird. I don't have any solutions, but that doesn't deny me the right to believe that the "solution" being caried out now will ultimately do more harm than good, both in the short term and the long term. Perhaps I am right, perhaps I am wrong; I make no pretense at being prophetic either, I only give my opinion.

at least in this I carefull agree - what is happening now is not solution that will bring lasting freedom. It will win Israel time - if years or decades or just one year remains to be seen. To me it is the lesser of all evil options. Nevertheless - if choosen, this path better should be followed with all determination, else it will acchieve lesser thasn possible, at higher costs, and all losses that are suffered will be in vain.

That implicitly means, everything else that could be done instead of fighting Hezbollah is worse. I have no illusions about the success of the operation, they will weaken Hezbollah, maybe drive it away from the border, and it will deny them the infrastructure they used to use, and reduce their weapon stocks. But even the ground offensive that surely will come will not wipe out Hezbollah.

Hezbollah should not have been allowed to settle down and grow into Lebanon. the country now pays the price for the Syrian ruthlessness.

Time will tell, all you and I can do is stand on the sidelines and see how things play out.

No, the ideology that preaches hate and intolerance, "all or nothing at all", and the fall of the Western infidels that motivates the Paslestoinaisn as much as their wish to set back the clocks by 60 years, is present in the west as well and drives even deeper into it. Instead of ignoring it and playing down the threat it poses, we could stand up, confront it head on, and not allow it one more inch to advance at the cost of our values, our ethical and philosophical thinking, and our cultural identity that it claims to have a right to subjugate, so that we shall fall prey to it, or die. That is something that everyone can do, instead of just seeing how things play out.

[Skybird]

when you fight against an enemy that is intentionally hiding in civilian infrastructure, you cannot avoid collateral damage then. You then only have the choice to fight, or not to fight at all.

fighting... and lobbing shells into a civilian population are two different things... surely you can't be that thick headed as to not realize this simple fact...

no, that wasn't well said at all... that was just plain stupidly said... sorry, if that sounds a lil rough... but surely you must be of the age where you can discern the difference between what you say, what you imagine, and what you mean to say...

--Mike

When I am under fire by missiles, and the missile launcher is in the garage of a civilian house, and the ammo is stored in the backroom of a newspaper or grocery store - then i lob grenades onto both buildings. Period.

If ammo transports are depending on certain bridges to reach their launchers, and if the personnell operating that launcher is treated in a hospital from where they return to combat and keep on shelling me with grenades and missiles, then I bomb the bridges, and bomb the hospital. Period.

If enemy operations are organised via cell phones and wire-telephone, and if they need electricity to keep their organisation running, then i bomb powerplants, and telephone masts. Period.

And if they use the local supplies of water and food, so that they can find rest and gain strength to keep on fighting against me - then I bomb the food and water supplies. Period.

and if their fighters are seeking the crowd of civilians to hide between them, I regrettfully nevertheless fire at them.

THAT IS WHAT WAR IS ABOUT. It's cruel, it's nasty, and it broke my heart when we came through places that have seen battles like this short time before in Kurdistan, and children crying in a hidden hole for they have lost their sister or parents. I do not like it a bit, and I feel down when remembering such things too long. THAT IS WAR.

BUT ISRAEL HAS NOT ASKED FOR GETTING ATTACKED AND TERRORIZED TIME AND AGAIN, and as long as you cannot show better realistic alternatives than Scandium, I defend Israel's right for self-defense. and this although I am no special friend of Israel myself.


-----


Has anyone noticed, btw, how remarkably silent Arab governments are? For the, too, Hezbollah is a huge, Iran-made problem. They know very well that Israerl does them a favour when weakening of destroying it. Hezbollah means Iranian influence, and that is something thta has become more and more a problem for Araba nations in the ME. Add to that the Palestinian attempt to take over jordan, and you now why Arabas do nothing serious about the Palestinians anymore. Corruption of Arab governments, espcially the Saudi government, of cause also is a reason.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Are you seriously saying that Israel would still be "lobbing" those shells at the civilian population if there weren't Hezbollah weren't hiding behind and amongst them? no... that's not what i'm saying at all... i'm saying that they should not be lobbing those shells into civilian occupied areas, given the circumstances... period...

i have close friends who have relatives in Isreal... do you think that i can sanction what the Hezobola are doing either... lobbing shells into civilian occupied Haifa and other cities in the north...

one terror is no less evil than the other...


As bad as the IRA was they never held a patch to what the enemies of Israel
sounds good if you didn't get killed or injured by an IRA bomb... ask someone who was though... or who lost a relative... dead is dead... i've never heard of a terrorist bomb, or a mortar that ever asked it's intended target, which side they were on, before exploding... all this stuff you are coming up with is pure nonesense...

It's nice to say "Be like Ghandi and it'll all work out"again you are being simplistic... i never said anything like that at all... did i...

All i see is one side, Israel, making concessions only to have them thrown back in their faces. then you ought to look again... with better eyes this time... for surely all that you've been seeing sofar is what you wanted to see...

fear and prejudice has a way of clouding the visions of many men... add to that the blind faith of religious zealotsim and fanaticism, and it's no wonder that so many are walking around blindly ready to kill each other...

funny... the birthplace of the savior of the Judiac Christian and Moslem world is the center of so much strife... mainly because one group faces Mecca... and the other prays against the wailing wall... makes you wonder, doesn't it... makes me wonder...

you want my solution... build a big conrete cube and seal all of you off from the rest of the civilized world... lock the door and throw away the keys... let you all kill each other off, or let you all learn to live as your religions say you should...

you will forgive me for having such little patience with the prevailing ignorance and stupidity i am witness to... my sympathies lies with those who cherish life... those who cherish having children and families... those who seek to attain the positive things in life...

my solution... many individuals would start dissapearing tommorrow night, and each subsequent night... on both sides of this debased situation... all those who would perpertrate violence would find themselves missing when the sun rose the next day...

no explanation... no accounting...

it's obvious that an external force must step in and be able to reach out and touch those who need to be controlled...

if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...


--Mike

[Wim Libaers]

if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...

Is there a reason to think the other kind does have a soul? I thought they merely died faster. You know, the way evolution works, the nicest isn't always the best.

I also think you are defining humanity in a way many people in this world would not understand.

[Skybird]

Man is a monkey with BOTH the divine spark of humanity and the killer instinct in his soul. Two features of the same face. Tell him he's a creature of light, and he will be a light for others. Tell him all earth revolves around him, and he becomes a tower, throwing a long shadow.

[August]

no... that's not what i'm saying at all... i'm saying that they should not be lobbing those shells into civilian occupied areas, given the circumstances... period...
Then defeating Israel is, by that rule, quite simple. Their enemy has but to surround himself with women and children like a shield to have a completely safe position from which to continue to kill Israelis. Day after day, month after month, year after year. At what point does it become permissable to defend oneself in that situation? Twenty miles into Israel, 40? In downtown Tel Aviv? When Israel is a crumbling beachhead on the banks of the Mediterranean?

Their enemy knows that forcing the Israelis to cause civilian casualties will turn world opinion against them so they deliberately use this. Israel drops leaflets telling civilians to get out, vastly increasing the danger to their own troops i may add, but the Hezbollah fighter won't let those civilians leave and even makes sure they get hit when the Israelis shoot back. Personally i suspect they even add to those civilian casualties themselves when they think they can pin it on the Jews, or in another war, the Americans and British. That's the type of enemy the Israelis are fighting.

i have close friends who have relatives in Isreal... do you think that i can sanction what the Hezobola are doing either... lobbing shells into civilian occupied Haifa and other cities in the north...

one terror is no less evil than the other...
Of course i don't think you sanction it, but terror, continious terror, must be met some how. Non violent responses, diplomacy and concessions, have been tried repeatedly, and have repeatedly failed. It keeps coming back to the question, what are the Israelis to do?

sounds good if you didn't get killed or injured by an IRA bomb... ask someone who was though... or who lost a relative... dead is dead... i've never heard of a terrorist bomb, or a mortar that ever asked it's intended target, which side they were on, before exploding... all this stuff you are coming up with is pure nonesense...

That's not what i meant. Comparing the sheer numbers of civilian victims alone between the two conflicts makes my point quite amply i think.

fear and prejudice has a way of clouding the visions of many men... add to that the blind faith of religious zealotsim and fanaticism, and it's no wonder that so many are walking around blindly ready to kill each other...

I'm willing to have my vision cleared Mike. What concessions for peace have Isreals enemies ever made? Where have they compromised? Perhaps I have missed it, so tell me, please, what were they?

funny... the birthplace of the savior of the Judiac Christian and Moslem world is the center of so much strife... mainly because one group faces Mecca... and the other prays against the wailing wall... makes you wonder, doesn't it... makes me wonder...

It's more than religious icons, to them it is home. That gives it far more meaning than simply some old dusty ruins or antiquities ever could. Make no mistake. This isn't just about Jerusalem or Gaza or the Golan Heights, or Allah or the God of Moses, it is about the right to live in ones homeland, ones right to exist.

you want my solution... build a big conrete cube and seal all of you off from the rest of the civilized world... lock the door and throw away the keys... let you all kill each other off, or let you all learn to live as your religions say you should...

This is coming from a guy who feels it's wrong to accidently injure non combatants in a war for ones own survival? What happens when the inmates storm those walls and gates and bust out of there to come after you civilized people? How will you deal with an enemy that attacks you from behind a shield of women and children when it comes up the Allegehney river to push you out of your home?

my solution... many individuals would start dissapearing tommorrow night, and each subsequent night... on both sides of this debased situation... all those who would perpertrate violence would find themselves missing when the sun rose the next day...

no explanation... no accounting...

it's obvious that an external force must step in and be able to reach out and touch those who need to be controlled...[/quote

Perhaps but that's one tall order! Who could possibly pull it off? The UN? No way. They've never kept the peace longer than it took for one side to re arm and re equip.

The US? I doubt it. Already the world, including most of our so called Allies, hates our guts and all we did was remove one thug dictator and his regime. I doubt they'd ever allow us go in there and straighten it out and even if they did i don't think America has the willpower to do it.

[quote]if man cannot control himself, then he must be controlled... i understand that is may be part of the genetic makeup of the monkey that talks, the need to kill... you must realize that some monkeys have evolved past that point...

Yes some, but certainly not all, and unfortunately, as someone wise once said "Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who didn't." (to which i'd add "assuming they are even allowed to live"). That is simple human truth as old as our species and nothing has ever happened to change that. Wishing it were not so won't do it.

which monkey are you... the one with a spark of humanity in its soul... or the one with the savage killer insticts driving its actions... the one without a soul...

My honest answer to that question my friend is both. There is both savage and saint in all of us, and which one influences our actions the most at any moment is primarily based upon our experiences and our environment. It's what it means to be human.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

@ August

you are deaf, dumb, and blind to any reality except the politcal religious brainwashing that obviously has taken place during your short stay here...

if i ran the zoo, i would lock you and all of you who think the same, narrow minded way, in a dark room, and throw away the key... that way you could excercise your savagery all you like...

you, and all who think (?) like you, are the ones who lack humanity... the monkeys who have yet to become humane in thought, word, and deed... the mokeys who have no soul...

it is people like you are the real enemy of all civilized human beings everywhere...

--Mike

[Skybird]

Cool down now, else the keylock will get oiled, I assume. We have understood that you prefer Islamic terror, and probably Islamic domination, to defending against it. Your choice, and we must not agree. But when you let it become that personal, you do something even more serious: you violate forum rules. ;) You should know it better.

[scandium]

We have understood that you prefer Islamic terror, and probably Islamic domination, to defending against it. And Skybird once again resorts to the usual strawman.

Which is especially absurd within the context of this conflict, given that when Israel attacked Lebanon, among its small population of 4 million people were about 100,000 Canadians, Americans, Europeans, and Australians, and that 39% of Lebanon is Christian, and that the President of Lebanon is - and always has been, a Christian.

I think it is you Skybird, who prefers Islamic terror, since what else can come of the destruction of one of the few progressive ME democracies and the displacement of 100s of thousands of its people as refugees to scatter throughout the world while the West either cheers it on, or looks on in indifference. What else can come of such killing, injustice, chaos, and destabilization?

Do you think the pro-American Lebanese man who has never supported Hezzbollah, who helped drive the Syrians out, and who now as payment receives his house flattened by a Made-in-the-USA bomb dropped by the IDF, his family starved and forced to suffer by the Israeli siege of his country and the bombing of its infrastructure, and who is finally forced to leave his home, looking back upon his village that is now in ruins, for who knows where, might not decide that a little payback is in order?

How do you think Hezbollah was formed in the force place? Let me tell you: it was formed in the ruins that was once Lebanon, the ruins that it is being returned to once again, during an Israeli occupation that is about to be repeated, and it was funded, encouraged, and supported by other countries who found people who, in such a climate, were both receptive to an ideology of war with the IDF and who were desperate for the cash that such allegience would pay them. Whoda thunk such a think was possible? Look at Al Quadea now in Iraq - whoda thunk such a think was possible?

Now history repeats itself again. And still fools continue to think that anything else can come of this other than what has always come of it before. :nope:

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace." G.W. Bush

[Skybird]

when we talk about Hezbollah we talk about Iran and it'S theocracy that was allowed under syrian military occupation to arm and and support the Hezbollah, and it went on when the Syrian troops left, foer syrian intel still is a major player in Lebanon and Lebanese politics (even the UN report ojn the assassination of Lebanese politicians point fingers at Syria). Hezbollah also receives genorous support by Syria. It is trained by Iranian revolutionary guards. It is qeuipped with small, but some latest missiles with ranges of over 200 km from Iranian production. Hezbollah is not regular army of Lebanon. In fact, Hezbollah has taken the whole country hostage, in the hope that that would prevent the Israelis to strike at Hezbollah, for moral scruples that Hezbollah itself does not have. Before Israel struck the first time against Palestinians and islamic terror (so far it is Muhammedans carrying those bombing belts, not Lebanese Christians, and so far they are quoting the Quran to justify their barbarism and murder, not the Bible), there was the vow of the Palestinians to destroy and kill Israel. And before Israel was founded, there was the vow of islam to subjugate all world, and dominate it, an kill all tother religions and cultures. The use of brutality, murder and every kind of violence is not a pervertion of Islam, but it is encoded in it'S very own teaching. It is no violation of a religion, it is the practicing of its very centre teachings. This is what will it make different from all other world religions, forever. Nowhere the use of military force, murder and violence is explciitly allowed, even demanded in a religion, nowhere.

This war is about destroying as much of Hezbollah's weapons and ammo stockpiles, and kill Hezbollah fighters, and drive them away from the border. It is not about bringing peace and demcoracy to the ME, it is about buying time for Israel - that is expected since years and decades to swallow all the assassinations and massmurdering on it's street and not complain, so that some fools could carry on with their naive illusions of that their is proportionality, and reason, and a so-called "peace process". Hezbollah uses Lebanon'S infrastructure, on a huge multitude of levels: traffic, informatio network, energy, supply lines, hiding places - that is why these structures now get destroyed. That's what you do in war - you destroy what supports your enemy.

Telling people that one does not have sympathy for terror, and telling them at the same time that one may not defend against it if it cannot be done without ruling out the hurting of bystanders, is very much worth the same: nothing, it leads to the same consequence: the ongoing of terror. Sympathy or not does not prevent the dying of terror victims in Israeli busses and cafes, nor does it prevent the murderers to strike again and again. Who cares for your statement you do not sympathize with terror? You demand that things are left in a way so that terror can carry on. You have no alternative to offer, and you even admit it. That's a lil' bit too thin.

you guys are very noisy about Israeli shelling of civilian houses that they suspect to be used by Hezbollah. So far noone has become as noisy when it came to protest against the detonation of bombs in busses. At bus stations. In cafes. The arbitary shelling of civilian cities and settlements by unguided rockets. Sniping of Israeli residents. Assaulting Israeli settlements at night. So far the offensive in Lebanon has costed far lesser lifes than Israel has lost in the past couple of years in civilian lifes. The pictures are just more spectacular, and there you go yelling.

If you accept murderers in your house or neigbourhood, don't wonder for being held responsible for that. you better drive them out, and if you can't, find someone who helps you, and if that is not possible too, you better move away yourself. Cause you get judged by the people in your company. As determined I fought against the Iraq war, I am tolerating and understand the Israeli reaction now, well-knowing that it is no miracle solution and will not bring lasting peace. but it buys time for Israel to get a breath, and weakens it's enemy more or less. Since I accept Israels right to exist in that place, as explained by reasons I gave in the past, I clearly label Hezbollah, Iran and Islam the attacker, and israel the defender. A defender that now defends himself with an iron fist, which may be irritating in Teheran. And this talking about that now more Lebanese will join Hezbollah. What is the difference between Lebanese too weak or too unwilling to drive away Hezbollah, supporting it indirectly that way, and Lebanese that still support Hezbollah, only mor openly now? Concenring the threat faced by Israel, there is no difference at all.

Iraq was a folly, becassue one wanted to bring something to it: peace, democracy, Western values. That's why it failed. This war now is different. It does not want to bring anything to anyone. It simply wants to kill as many enemies as possible. that's all.

[August]

@ August

you are deaf, dumb, and blind to any reality except the politcal religious brainwashing that obviously has taken place during your short stay here...

if i ran the zoo, i would lock you and all of you who think the same, narrow minded way, in a dark room, and throw away the key... that way you could excercise your savagery all you like...

you, and all who think (?) like you, are the ones who lack humanity... the monkeys who have yet to become humane in thought, word, and deed... the mokeys who have no soul...

it is people like you are the real enemy of all civilized human beings everywhere...

--Mike

Gee Thanks Mike. I really appreciate the personal insults. Lessee, you accuse me of being, deaf, dumb and blind, brainwashed, narrow-minded, savage, lacking in humanity, without soul, a monkey and the enemy of civilized human beings everywhere. That's not bad for a four sentence post... :yep:

FWIW I may be a savage in your eyes and believe me that doesn't bother me in the least as i'd rather be ranked among them than your brand of insipid weaklings, but I do think for myself and I thank God every day that people such as you don't and, hopefully will never, run the "zoo", as you put it, called Earth. It's your kind that allowed Hitler to set the world on fire and firmly believe if were to run things you would allow his modern contemporaries to set the world on fire again.

What your type doesn't realize, and will never realize until it's too late, as always, is that you encourage the very savages you hate so with your weak and impotent beliefs. You enourage the suicide bombers and their militant Islamist masters who see your unrealistic opinions as an example of the inherent weakness of the western world.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

those aren't personal insults... you should know me better than that...

those are just an objective assesment of a demonstrated attitude of ignorance and lack of basic human considerations that you have shown time and time again...

and anyone who shares your lack of humanity, anyone who would show such disregard for human suffering and human life, on either side of this conflict, shares this assessment with you...

yes... you are right... i do think your attitude to be that of a savage... a throwback to the darker age when men slaughtereed and ate their brother...

sorry...

as for my type... which type is that... if you see me as someone who would sit around until a threat was too late, then you don't know me at all... i've spent years in the military... i know the difference between clear and specific threat and or danger... like i said above, a few highly motivated individuals, and your problems with the terrorists would be over...

but i wouldn't punish an entire population for the crimes of a specific enemy...

my type... it sounds as if you don't know my type at all... if you met me you might change your mind...

also, this has nothing to do with the inherent weaknesses of the western world... this is not a battle between the western world and the forces of darkness that scares you in your sleep and in your waking hours...

you see, it is your perverse logic that twists your vision of reality...

it's obvious that you can't see... why am i wasting my time... the reality of the situation is that you share the same fundamental lack of human consideration as the terrorists... two extremes locked in an eternal battle... neither one willing to acknowledge the others basic rights to humanity...

both doomed to destruction...

that is you... and all who tink (?) like you...

sorry... i just call em as they are....



--Mike

[August]

those aren't personal insults... you should know me better than that...

those are just an objective assesment of a demonstrated attitude of ignorance and lack of basic human considerations that you have shown time and time again...

and anyone who shares your lack of humanity, anyone who would show such disregard for human suffering and human life, on either side of this conflict, shares this assessment with you...

yes... you are right... i do think your attitude to be that of a savage... a throwback to the darker age when men slaughtereed and ate their brother...



--Mike

Well i guess it's easier to call me a savage than actually answer any of the points i've made, like it's easier to spout off with vague Ghandi comparisons to a situation that Ghandi never faced. No biggy. So please continue to enjoy your computer war games and leave the running of this world to us savages.

By the way, for the record i have never practiced cannablism.

[Gizzmoe]

Neal should change the forum rules... "Name-calling is ok as long as you make it clear that it was just an objective assessment of that persons character and not a personal insult". :dead:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Well i guess it's easier to call me a savage than actually answer any of the points i've made,

what!!! you would suggest i should waste my time entertaining the ravings of someone so wrapped up in their own hate, foolishness, and blindness... nooo nooo nooo... no...

you are lost, and i'm not wasting my time following you down the trail to oblivion... responding to every thing you have to say...

you wanna go on a quoting binge, you're gonna need to find someone else, perhaps a terrorist sympathizer... you and him would have more in common than you do with anyone of a sensible nature...



--Mike

[August]

sorry...

as for my type... which type is that... if you see me as someone who would sit around until a threat was too late, then you don't know me at all... i've spent years in the military... i know the difference between clear and specific threat and or danger... like i said above, a few highly motivated individuals, and your problems with the terrorists would be over...

but i wouldn't punish an entire population for the crimes of a specific enemy...

my type... it sounds as if you don't know my type at all... if you met me you might change your mind...

also, this has nothing to do with the inherent weaknesses of the western world... this is not a battle between the western world and the forces of darkness that scares you in your sleep and in your waking hours...

you see, it is your perverse logic that twists your vision of reality...

it's obvious that you can't see... why am i wasting my time... the reality of the situation is that you share the same fundamental lack of human consideration as the terrorists... two extremes locked in an eternal battle... neither one willing to acknowledge the others basic rights to humanity...

both doomed to destruction...

that is you... and all who tink (?) like you...

sorry... i just call em as they are....



--Mike

I see you added significantly to your post since i hit the reply button.

Well considering that you feel I am an ignorant savage then any further attempts to discuss this with you are probably useless. Suffice to say that you aren't the only one who has spent years in the military, i have as well, and i'm telling you, military man to military man that your "few motivated individuals" theory is a pipe dream. It's been tried repeatedly and the ninja like ability you speak of is pure fantasy.

If it weren't then Israel would already have eliminated their problem.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

i didn't spend my time behind a desk... or in a training unit... don't attempt to join me up in any perceived nco club you might imagine...

and if you think that the select few individuals is a pipe dream... then you aint talking to me military man to military man... you sound more like someone who reads soldier of fortune magazine, or similar pulp rags made for public consumption...

plain and simple... a surgical strike at known or highly suspect target is different from wide scale destruction of the infrastructure of an international city...

mark my words... this will end up worse than you can imagine... for all sides involved...

military man to miltary man... don't make me laugh... we're not talking about the KISS ARMY here ya know...



--Mike

[August]

i didn't spend my time behind a desk... or in a training unit... don't attempt to join me up in any perceived nco club you might imagine...

and if you think that the select few individuals is a pipe dream... then you aint talking to me military man to military man... you sound more like someone who reads soldier of fortune magazine, or similar pulp rags made for public consumption...

plain and simple... a surgical strike at known or highly suspect target is different from wide scale destruction of the infrastructure of an international city...

mark my words... this will end up worse than you can imagine... for all sides involved...

military man to miltary man... don't make me laugh... we're not talking about the KISS ARMY here ya know...

I guess you could consider the 1st Armored Division, 6th Infantry Division and the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne) a "Kiss army" but don't let that stop your attempt to side step discussion on your ridiculous ideas Mr. Red October...

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

what were you, the divison admin clerk...

you sure don't sound like you were in the operational end ]
of things... and there is no more discussion... you've already
shown that you are incapable of having one...

if i wanted absurd quotes to irrelated bias opinion, i could
google em up myself...

like i told ya above, find someone else to waste time with...


--Mike

[Skybird]

It's not the first time that the inconsistency of moderation in this forum makes me wonder why there are any rules at all - if it is left to random chance to check if they are followed. Nothing against fighting over opinions, I do that myself, but what this one-on-one is degenerating into is not something one could consider to be a tone acceptabler for a public forum like this. Like Gizzmoe, I recommend to delete the FAQ. Let's make it a place for freestyle wrestling completely. at least that would be more honest.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

give it a rest 'Bird... adults can engage in heated discussions without slandering each other...

if your skin is so thin, stay out... and stop whining... Neal is busy enough managing the forum to be bothered with your over over imaginative sensitivities...


noone has been personally attacked... and your suggestion is inappropriate... and wrong...


--Mike

[Skybird]

Keep your snooty tone for yourself. And read the FAQ, before lecturing others about adult behavior.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

my tone... what does my tone have to do with it (quote from a familiar movie)...

and that's right, consider yourself lectured... grow up, or go play in the sand box...

--Mike

[Skybird]

Keep your snooty tone for yourself. You are not qualified to lecture anyone here. You think you are big because of your long shadow, but that shadow is only long because your sun is already low.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

funny... i really didn't think i was lecturing anyone in the first place... but seeing as you consider yourself being lectured... then hey, i won't argue with you...

like i just said, consider yourself lectured... and pwned...

--Mike

[Fish]

How do you preserve "peace" with an enemy who's often repeated intention is the complete destruction of ones country and citizens?
the same way that Ghandi preserved the peace when the English were slaughtering unarmed Indian civilians over there not too long ago...

the same way that the peace was achieved in the Catholic/Protestant violence in the UK not that long ago...

history is repleat with examples of men who were soild enough to see that the differences between men pale in comparison to the things that we all have in common...

if you can't see this, then you are indeed blind to the reality that your very own god professes to you...

and you are all doomed...


SkyvyWvr... just because you couldn't have put it any better only means that you suffer from the same dissilusionment and blindness that anyone who would take such a stance does... i've just put it a lot better... read what i just said above...


--Mike

Yeah, you are arrogant, don´t you see that yourself ? :hmm:

[August]

what were you, the divison admin clerk...

you sure don't sound like you were in the operational end ]
of things... and there is no more discussion... you've already
shown that you are incapable of having one...

if i wanted absurd quotes to irrelated bias opinion, i could
google em up myself...

like i told ya above, find someone else to waste time with...


--Mike

But you're so much fun Mike, and no, I was stationed all three times in line units. Of course for all i know the closest you came to actual military service was the boy scouts, which is why you feel you have to disparage mine.

No matter, it's not like i'd want to trade copies of DD214's with you.

[Fish]

Neal should change the forum rules... "Name-calling is ok as long as you make it clear that it was just an objective assessment of that persons character and not a personal insult". :dead:


Good. :up:

[Rockstar]

The majority of the Arab league has told Hezbollah you started it you finish it and will not openly join them. I believe giving Israel a green light to go after them. You catch on quick grasshopper. The question is why the green light?


Whats the job of a politician? To aquire, maintain and expand power.

The Hezbollah terrorist/poltical party is becoming very dangerous to Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. They'll not get in the way of Israel for the time being, but after Israel defeats Hezbollah the same three countries will lift Hezbollah to martyrdom status and it starts all over again.

[Takeda Shingen]

give it a rest 'Bird... adults can engage in heated discussions without slandering each other...

On the internet? I have yet to see it. Sky's remarks are not 'inappropriate'; rather they are, as they say, spot-on. There is an inconsistency of moderation on these forums that had not been present until late.

grow up, or go play in the sand box...

And so, that would make this the teeter-totters? I never cared much for playgrounds.

[August]

give it a rest 'Bird... adults can engage in heated discussions without slandering each other...
On the internet? I have yet to see it. Sky's remarks are not 'inappropriate'; rather they are, as they say, spot-on. There is an inconsistency of moderation on these forums that had not been present until late.

grow up, or go play in the sand box...
And so, that would make this the teeter-totters? I never cared much for playgrounds.

Watch out Takeda, he'll call you a soulless savage monkey next...

[Oberon]

The more I read this thread, the more I'm thinking that the opening question's answer is yes.... :damn:

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

ya just can't shut it up... can ya August... do ya want me to embarrass you even further than i already have...

Fish... don't make me get started on your case... boy... please, spare yourself the humiliation... and spare the forum your foolishness as well...

neither of you have been anywhere in the middle east... you know nothing about the place... and august has never served in a front line unit... no matter what he'd have us believe... you're both just babbling and spending all day on this forum, because you have no other life... no other existance...

i've been out shopping, did some yardwork, and come back... and what do i find... August is still here, trying to bait someone into joining him in the wasteland of an existance he calls a life...

shut down the computer for a while... go outside of your room sized world... visit real people... talk to em... smell the flowers... do something besides sitting in your room all day long trolling for companionship... or making a pain of yourself with your wild assertions...

it's no wonder that the forum seems so hostile to you two... start acting like you've got half a brain in your head... start treating other people with oposing opinions as you would like yourself to be treated... learn the reality that your way isn't the only way... discover it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...

then you'll see that the world, and the forum can be a decent place to live...


ahhhhh, who am i fooling... i'm wasting my time trying to reason with the likes of you...


--Mike

[tycho102]

Given the past 7 or 8 posts in this thread, I'd just like to remind everyone that the United States Coast Guard is actually a member of the United States Military. You are required to salute officers. You are accountable under the UCMJ. Even though their paychecks say "Department of Transportation" on them. They spend 24 hours on little tiny 36' cutters, in 30' waves, with caliber .50 automatics, looking to hunt druggies and illegal aliens and terrorists.

I have the utmost respect for boat crews of the United States Coast Guard. You bastards are harcore, because I would be puking my guts and liver out, every single day.

That's about all I have to say that is relevant to both this thread's topic, and the past 7 or 8 posts.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

rotflmao at tycho... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

--Mike

[Oberon]

Ohkay, it's late (or early depending on how you look at it) and I'm feeling adventurous, so I'm gonna bite.
*dons flame protection*

Let's start in Lebanon, where it certainly does seem like Israel's military odds against Beirut are rather stacked towards Israel, with approx 350 to 31 and Israel's total dismantling of the infrastructure of Beirut won't be helping evacuation procedures much at all.
As much as I wish, and I really wish, that the two countries can broker a peace treaty, without some major investment from both sides it'd be as worthless as a certain treaty signed in 1939. Israel has enough military force, and world backing to pass up this opportunity, and Hezbollah just wants to keep the pot bubbling as long as they can, who knows, if they get lucky they might just get Iran and/or Syria involved, then it'll be a proper little jihad! :damn:
As I type this, words coming in that Israeli armour has crossed the Lebanese border and moved north to some villages, whether this is just another strike mission or a full scale invasion remains to be seen. I can't help but wonder whether this would have happened if Sharon was still in power....probably. Israel is a more aggressive country, but if you listen to its neighbours you can understand why they are that way.
Unfortunately, we are facing a new form of warfare in jihadist terrorists, and that warfare is everywhere and anywhere, my house, your house, our neighbours houses, or indeed the houses in Beirut or Haifa. They learnt when the WTC came down that civilians mean prizes, the more innocent bystanders get killed, the more world opinion is swayed, who can forget the 'baby milk factory' wreckage in Iraq during the first gulf war, and so they hide in buildings, sometimes I should imagine that even the buildings occupants don't know they have a guy with an AK-47 downstairs, right up until the point an Israeli missile comes into their living room.
Who's to blame for this? The guy with the AK downstairs, or the guy in the AH-64 who fired the missile? Or their bosses, or their gods? How far up the chain of command do we need to go?
I fear that war between Christianity and Islam is something that's just going to go on forever and ever until we forget the reasons why we're fighting and are just fighting for the sake of it, it's a pessimistic outlook on life but recent events and opinions expressed haven't let me down yet.
Let's face it, even Ghandi, arguably one of the greatest men to have walked this earth, couldn't bring eternal peace between India and Pakistan, as much as he tried, right up until the day he was shot...
Our fate isn't in our hands, it's in the lap of the gods....and if I was Hezbollah or Iran, those ships in Beirut would make such a tempting target for a captured Israeli missile fired from the Israeli border... :damn:

(All opinions stated above remain the intellectual property of an insane lunatic, quote it at your disgression.)

[scandium]

I fear that war between Christianity and Islam is something that's just going to go on forever and ever until we forget the reasons why we're fighting and are just fighting for the sake of it, it's a pessimistic outlook on life but recent events and opinions expressed haven't let me down yet.
Few things to point out here (I am not going to flame you, by the way) in this "war between "Christianity and Islam".

You were using the current Israel-Lebanon as an example, thus I should point out that the two belligerents, Hezbollah and Israel, are a bad example of this Christianity-Islam war. Israel is a Jewish state. Hezbollah is a guerrila organization funded and supported by Syria and Iran (an Islamic dictatorship and Islamic theocracy respectively) that was founded during, and because of, the Israeli occupation of Lebanon. Lebanon, meanwhile, where the vast majority of killing and destruction is being wrought, is neither an Islamic dictatorship nor an Islamic theocracy. It is a very small middle eastern country that is both pro-American and democratic (rare things in that part of the world, though it is not likely it'll remain eithrt for much longer if you consider where that's gotten them), and which has a Christian President and a population that is over 1/3rd Christian.

Lebanon has not declared war on Israel, nor has it attacked it. If you don't let these facts get in your way, as so many here do, what Israel is doing to Lebanon makes about as much sense as the British Government leveling Ireland when the IRA bombed London.

Anyway, I'm getting tired of repeating these points. I heard Rush Limbaugh on the radio recently criticizing the 25,000 Americans in Lebanon for being there, and for having the "nerve" to criticize the evacuation effort. Imagine having the nerve to think you can work or visit a country outside your own that is also a peaceful democracy. Scratch that last part. My country is at war with Afghanistan, your country is fighting two wars, as is the U.S. Though you would never say it to look around, unlike in Lebanon which has no troops in Iraq or in Afghanistan, or anywhere else.

And yet we are so shocked and outraged and horrified when one of "them" blows up one of our shopping malls while we rain millions of pounds of explosives down on their part of the world every year, prop up the dictatorships over there like Saddam Hussein's which buried thousands of them in mass graves, or Saudi Arabia with its "Ministry of Vice and Virtue", and on and on.

You are right to expect this to go on forever (though it won't, it'll end one way or another when these guerrila groups and "rogue states" buy, steal, or develop weapons to match our own and no longer need to employ guerrila warfare tactics), but you are not - in my humble opinion - seeing the conflict from both sides in all of its many dimensions (the religious angle doesn't hold up if you look at the US protectorate of Saudi Arabia which is Islamic and Theocratic a country as you'll find in the ME).

[August]

ya just can't shut it up... can ya August... do ya want me to embarrass you even further than i already have...

Embarrass me? Please Mikey boy. Your strategy of personal insults and name calling as a cover for a weak argument doesn't embarrass me in the slightest. It should embarrass you though, but apparently it doesn't.

Do continue.

[August]

i've been out shopping, did some yardwork, and come back... and what do i find... August is still here, trying to bait someone into joining him in the wasteland of an existance he calls a life...

Actually i bought a Nissan Pathfinder today. Paid cash. The wife and I just finished unloading my old Dodge which i plan to bring up to my property and use as a woods truck.

Y'know, what savages do with their free time....

Oh by the way since you seem to want to make my military service an issue, just what outfit were you with hotshot? I'd bet dollars against donuts it's the admin clerk you accuse me of being.

[August]

it's no wonder that the forum seems so hostile to you two... start acting like you've got half a brain in your head... start treating other people with oposing opinions as you would like yourself to be treated... learn the reality that your way isn't the only way... discover it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...

Strange, the only hostility i feel from the members of this forum is from you and Scandium and he at least tries to make an argument before he retreats to insults and slander.

I'm still willing to discuss the situation in the middle east with you, that is if you can muster an argument. So far I see it summed up as this:

August: "Looks like the Isrealis are finally fed up and are taking action against those killing their people"

Mike: "Well war is, mmm, bad ok?"

August: "Well yes it is, but what choice do they have?"

Mike: "I don't care as long as they don't hurt the poor civilians"

August: "How can they do that, if the enemy hides among them?"

Mike: "You're a savage with no soul"

August: "But Mike, seriously..."

Mike: "I'm an big shot operational guy who hates war and who knows more than you could possibly ever know."

August: "Well i served too..."

Mike: "You must have been an admin clerk because they are the only ones who don't realize that just a few hand picked men could totally fix all the problems in the middle east and be home before lunch."

August: "I doubt that would work"

Mike: "Shall i embarrass you again? I have plenty more names i could call you..."

August: ":roll:"

So is that about right or did i miss an insult or two?

[Skybird]

Scandium,

Hezbollah is the long arm of the Iranian theocracy and as that everything else than a simple political resistance organization. If now has an agenda that deeply roots in traditional Islam, and demands the destruction of the Jewish state AT ALL COSTS. It's terror as well as it's internal Palestinian welfare if grounded on that. Hezbollah has attacked Israel from Lebanese soil, since years, it is the aggressor in this, since long.

Hezbollah fighters are no guerillas, because Guerillas still could fight against a military, and spare the civilian population, at least from intentionally targetting them. Same is true for partisans. A suicide bomber trying to kill a bus with schoochidlren is not guerilla. He is a criminal, a massmurderer, a piece of human excrement. These guys intentionally try to kill civilians as their primary taregt, and they will do it as long as they are not kille dthemsleves or all Jews have left the ME. The want to murder as many of them as possible. And that is the description of terrorists, not guerilla fighters. This is the difference between the Israelis and the Hezbollah. Where the latter tries to kill civilians in the first, the Israeli target Hizbollah and cannot escape from accepting that by that destruction will be done to the civilians as well, since Hizbollah seeks to hide in their middle, intentionally to abuse them as human shields, puts it's infrastructure into the civilian infrastructure for cover and hiding, and make any resistance to Hezbollah as costly as possible, public relation-wise. If they are allowed that tactic, it means that no means of resistance to Hezbollah is left. We could give up and give up Israel as well, then.

Lebanon was independent only on paper, never in reality, it was and still is hanging at strings that are pulled in Damaskus and Teheran. This is one of the rare opportunities when America and the UN came to the same conclusions. The latest UN examination report on the political murderings in Lebanon clearly blames Syria to heavily influence Lebanon politics. Hezbollah has seats in the Lebanese givernment, it is part of it, and that due to it'S Iranian supporters means that Lebanon in fact is controlled and governed by Iran, and Syria. The reference to "democracy in Lebanon - is an empty phrase only.

And as often as you say the ME compares to GBR-IRA, as often you will be told again and again and again that this comparison does not hold any substance. It also is nothing like ther Red Armny Faction, Black September, or anything like that. These confrontations do not compare in any way.

Lebanon has hosted innumerable attacks on Israel from it's territory. Neither has it tried to prevent these, nor has the UN force in Lebanon been willing or able to do that. They are paper soldiers only. If Lebanon was too unwilling or too weak to prevent this, does not change the result. Terrorists have taken control oF Lebanon, the attacks are starting from Lebanese ground and soil, Lebanese infrastructure is in support of the Hezbollah. You cannot defeat cancer without hurting the body it has infected. the longer you wait, the deeper you have tio cut afterwards. One has waited very, very long. And that was a mistake.

The goal is and must be to implement the biggest ammount of damage for Hezbollah and reduction of it's potentials. As long as you cannot come up with a practical, realistic alternative to doing that with force, you have no real case to defend, only empty hands, and wishes for a better world. Your wishes in all honours, but there is only this one world that we got.

Islamic terror, btw is not there since the founding of Israel. Lethal violance has been encoded into Islamic thinking and theology since the days of Muhammad, terror was the constant companion of Muhammad. Violance and killing of infidels and the conquest of their homes countries and poessession is demanded for and encoded in it's very core and heart and essence. Muhammad was a bandit, a robber and murder, a Mafia Godfather who took care for those who followed him - and mercilessly shattered aeveryone and everything that rejected to submit - and Islam reflects that until today. It is absurd to assume that Islam would be less aggressive if the West only would give up Israel and would treat it kind and nicely. That only is perceived as a sign of weakness and apostacy - and the demands immediately grow. I don't know how often Muhammedan have told me int heir own countirws - that htey have a RIGHT on my home, on my country, and a right to destroy my culture. It is their mission to be the enemy of all non-Muslim mankind. Many of them do not want to realöize that, and denythat. But their own books and their own history and their own prophet proves them wrong. Terror has been with Islam since Islam has been there. Stop distorting history and theology by giving the impression that it is only a reaction to the West's injustice and egoism. That is simply not true. It's wrong. A scorpion has no sting because for example a snake has a rattle. A scorpion has a sting because it is a scorpion, and absolutely nothing different. what there is about the snake has nothing to do with it.

[scandium]

it's no wonder that the forum seems so hostile to you two... start acting like you've got half a brain in your head... start treating other people with oposing opinions as you would like yourself to be treated... learn the reality that your way isn't the only way... discover it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...
Strange, the only hostility i feel from the members of this forum is from you and Scandium and he at least tries to make an argument before he retreats to insults and slander.
Odd that you bring me into this, given that I've only ever gotten pissed off at something you said toward me once, and it just happened to be over an insult you threw my way one too many times on a day when I was not in the mood for it, and which was forgotten pretty quickly. I don't "hate" anyone here, although I've been here long enough now to know that there are some things that people will not agree on and can even get a little heated over - myself included - but that is not "hate", at least not to me.

The hostility you feel from me is in your mistakenly equating my criticism of US foreign policy, and its president, with the US in general and you personally. Which makes no sense if you think about it for a moment, I mean, would you still feel that way if Bill Clinton were still in office and my criticism was directed toward him? Or if Hillary is elected in 2008 and I criticize her? And can you say you yourself have never criticized another country's leader or it policies? Or is that a right held exclusively by Americans?

[scandium]

Terrorists have taken control oF Lebanon, the attacks are starting from Lebanese ground and soil, Lebanese infrastructure is in support of the Hezbollah. You cannot defeat cancer without hurting the body it has infected. the longer you wait, the deeper you have tio cut afterwards. One has waited very, very long. And that was a mistake.
Good analogy. Its possible to remove a tumour without doing any harm to the patient though, it is all depends on the form of the cancer and and how deep the rot goes. Further, if one has skin cancer then you do not amputate the entire limb to cure the cancer.

Let's just say we disagree on diagnosis, prognosis, and treatment ;)

Even though, to continue with this medical analogy, I have not recommened a treatment myself I will point out part of the original Hippocratic Oath all the same:

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

[sonar732]

I admire Mike's work on his upcoming game...but how can a moderator be left "unchecked" with personal insults...and yes they were made? :roll::o

EDIT: With the way this thread is going...strongly suggestion of a lock is in order.

[August]

it's no wonder that the forum seems so hostile to you two... start acting like you've got half a brain in your head... start treating other people with oposing opinions as you would like yourself to be treated... learn the reality that your way isn't the only way... discover it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round...
Strange, the only hostility i feel from the members of this forum is from you and Scandium and he at least tries to make an argument before he retreats to insults and slander.
Odd that you bring me into this, given that I've only ever gotten pissed off at something you said toward me once, and it just happened to be over an insult you threw my way one too many times on a day when I was not in the mood for it, and which was forgotten pretty quickly. I don't "hate" anyone here, although I've been here long enough now to know that there are some things that people will not agree on and can even get a little heated over - myself included - but that is not "hate", at least not to me.

The hostility you feel from me is in your mistakenly equating my criticism of US foreign policy, and its president, with the US in general and you personally. Which makes no sense if you think about it for a moment, I mean, would you still feel that way if Bill Clinton were still in office and my criticism was directed toward him? Or if Hillary is elected in 2008 and I criticize her? And can you say you yourself have never criticized another country's leader or it policies? Or is that a right held exclusively by Americans?

I'm not hostile to you Scandium. Nor do i believe i insulted you. IIRC, and i'm kind of busy right now to check back, it was something about you feeling that i wasn't caring enough for the plight of the Canadians that were trapped in Lebanon.

So i think your point about who's president is sort of moot.

[scandium]

I'm not hostile to you Scandium. Nor do i believe i insulted you. IIRC, and i'm kind of busy right now to check back, it was something about you feeling that i wasn't caring enough for the plight of the Canadians that were trapped in Lebanon.

So i think your point about who's president is sort of moot.

Fair enough, we have a truce then. If only international relations were so easily resolved ;)

[Onkel Neal]

Ok, you guys asked for it, I'm making Gizzmoe a special moderator in the General Topics forum. Prepare your wills! :rotfl:

http://www.subsim.com/terminator76.jpg

[Gizzmoe]

Prepare your wills! :rotfl:

:yep: :D

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

ohhhh noooooo... not Gizzmoe...

:)

seriously,

Sonar... there were no personal attacks made... merely an objective look at the inhumanity of the situation going on over there...

with that, the totally irresponsible, inhumane, and uncivilized position that would justify the killing of innocent civilians, is an acceptable one... worse than that... it's INHUMANE, it's UNCIVILIZED...

It's the height of debased thinking... and for me to stand by and listen to any such 'speeches' by someone who has no first hand knowledge of the events going on there, would be like condoning these actions mentioned above, regardless of who is the initiator...

and that i cannot, in good conscience do... that i will not do...

August seems to have trouble when he's confronted with the truth... not my truth, not the truth from above, but the plain simple truth... he has trouble accepting facts... not facts run through the rumor mill, but plain objective facts...

and you, as well, seem to have trouble accepting that and pure objective criticism is not a personal attack...

why does august feel the need to make three or four unanswered posts, one right after the other, trying to show that he is the injured party here... nooo nooo nooo... this is a typical tactic when totally extreme viewpoints are countered with truth and factual information... it's his problem... not mine, and certainly not the forums...

everyone is entitled to an opinion... broadcast it on a public forum, and don't be surprised if everyone doesn't agree with that opinion... a plain and simple fact that both of you seem to have a problem with... or at least don't understand...

try and promote or preach an extreme idea, and don't be surprised as well, if you get an equally extreme reaction to it...

what do you seriously expect...

don't go whining to the forum admins when you find that what you say has been exposed for exactly what it is... if you can't stand the counterpoint, then don't post the foolishness...

plus

1- he has never been to Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, and i doubt Israel...
2- he most likely hasn't bought a Nissan anything yesterday... no matter what he said... and if he did, then he's a fool to have paid cash...

now, you'll probably see that as a personal attack as well... but it's obvious to anyone, that only a fool would pay cash up front, for any car...

3- why is he telling us this in the first place... who cares about what he bought, or about his finances...


to get back on topic, and to conclude...

anyone who lacks the basic considerations for innocent life is an uncivilized savage... just like anyone who pays cash up front for a car is a fool... if you share any of those two ideas, and post em in public, then you have branded yourself as to what you are...

i just make a point of it in my counterpoint...

and that's the fact that August, and you can't stand... or don't seem to understand...

why is this even an issue for discussion... isn't it obvious to all of you that the taking of innocent life is a morally repudnant crime... regardless of who is doing it... regardless of what the justification is...

this is no video game we are talking about... detach yourselves for a moment from Silent Hunter and Deadly Waters and whatever simulation of reality you are playing...

this is real life and death we're talking about here... there is no reset button... you can't press any key to try again...



--Mike

[Type941]

once things start to get out of control, i.e. there is more news coming in then we can digest, then people will start panicking and take the worst decisions. That would be bad. I hope it doesn't come to that, and it is slowly developing conflict that can be sustained at some point. Israel has no chance to kill Hizbollah. May be make some buffer zone.

Reality, the only way for Israel to solve this is to move elsewhere, the whole country. I really can't think of anything else that can solve this conflift. Well, a full out war against all arab countries around can do that as well, probably, but that is another option i don't think anyone is prepared to tackle. I am not smart enough to find a way out of this, probably.

[Skybird]

I wonder if Mike will ever put up one of his threads - in defense of the Israeli victims of terror strikes from the last years, from the last decades. All in all they too count by the thousands, 1100 since autumn 2000 alone), but somehow they do not show up in his posts about how much compassion he has for human life. The bias is obvious. Possibly he will say that he has sympathy for Israeli children or women or men getting wiped out in the name of Islam and in the name of destroying Israel and conquering Palestine again. Wonderful. They will keep dying, but when dying they will have his sympathy then. That's worth to be mentioned at the funerals. That's so much better an attitude than what he tries to yell down here. That is so reasonable, so civilized, so humanistic. Is only a dead Israeli a good Israeli, then?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

you surely are the poster boy for blind ignorance 'Bird...

first of all... look back at my first post on this general topic... it was to the lil soldier mom who frequents our board, and who has an even greater prediclection for one sided viewpoints (understandable from her perspective)...

i can direct you to it if you need...


second... we are talking about the current hostilities... i'm not gonna go back and recount all casualties throughout history of the savagery and hate between the Jews and the Muslims in the region... you have your statstics, the Muslims have theirs... i'm sure both sides are the injured party...

only someone like you would dare ask me such a foolish question... only someone like you would have the audacity to try and bait me into taking sides in this madness...

you would have me justify the innocent killing of civilians by either side... don't even try...

yesterday, i was siting here with a Russian Jew who has relatives in Israel, though not in the north, while i answered some of your foolishness... a very close friend of mine... he was surprised, but not totally surprised, to some of the responses i was getting...

just curious... are you even aware of the protests inside Israel itself against this latest action... for the very reasons i outlined previously...


plain and simple, the indiscriminant taking of life is immoral... it's uncivlized... it's savagery at it worst... whether it's a Jewish finger pulling the trigger, or an Arab or Muslim finger...

can you see now that this is the very reason i term people who think like you as savage, ignorant, and uncivilized...

of course you can't... why do i even ask...

--Mike

[Skybird]

And more zigzagging.

And yes, I heared of the protests in Israel. I also heared that over 80% of Israelis support the war, saying they already waited too long, and that the onesided withdrawal in 2000 was a mistake. That is said in newsppaers from UIsrael, england, Germany, France, and I think I remember to have it seen quoted in an american newspaper as well. And those that protest - like you do not offer a realistic alternative how to reduce the threat of Hezbollah without destroying it whereever one sees it. they just want everybody to behave kind and friendly.

And still you have not one word left about the thousands of terror-victims in Israel. Not too mention that you do not reveal hoo to stop them from getting killed in the future without fighting Hezbollah.

plain and simple, the indiscriminant taking of life is immoral... it's uncivlized... it's savagery at it worst...

can you see now that this is the very reason i term people who think like you as savage, ignorant, and uncivilized...

Tell that Hezbollah in special that intentionally targets civilians, Syria and iran who armed Hezbollah, and tell that expansive Islam in general.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

And more zigzagging.
nonsense... there is no ziggzagging, as you call it... just a direct, clear, and concise response to your questions...

Tell that Hezbollah in special, Syria and iran who armed Hezbollah, and tell that expansive Islam in general.
i'm telling that to all of you...

i will not be lured into take sides in this latest savagery...

my sympathies lie with those in the region who want to live... with who treasure life above all...

if given the resources, i would protect them, above all, from all of you over there who lack the vision to see the truth before you...

--Mike

[Skybird]

Immer im Kreis herum, Papi, immer im Kreis... Avoiding answers is concise and direct and clear... Calling people monkeys that should be locked in a zoo is no offense, but an objective description... And targetting terrorists who slaughter civilians on and on and call it a religious duty is no self-defense, but the intentional terrorizing of innocents... But trolling remains trolling, no matter how hard you try to cover that. Have fun with yourself, after Kurushio you are the second one receiving the honour to be put on my ignore list.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

you certainly have the right to indulge in your delusions 'bird...

--Mike

[Skybird]

Oh my God, he is a moderator - but does not know the moderator rules. You can't ignore him, while he continues to abuse his position. That is really a bad choice. Ignore buttons does not work, is there a nuke button somewhere?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

ahhh, so you have nothing else to defend yourself with for the topic at hand... so you choose a different path of attack...

and here we go... the typical whine of the defeated... abuse... such a specific term, isn't it...

sorry... off topic remarks will be ignored as well...

try pressing the 'educate thyself button' for starters...


--Mike

[waste gate]

I hope this will clear up any misunderstanding.

From the beginning of time, there was a place called "Palestine" which was inhabited exclusively by the biggest gift to humankind: Palestinians. Their culture flourished, their peaceful people prospered, and their model nation was to become the jewel of the world. Their language was Arabic, their religion was Muslim (pronounced "MOOZ-lem"), but regrettably, all evidence of their governments, their currency, their laws, their scientific, technological, philosophical, and artistic accomplishments were destroyed. By whom? Keep reading.


In the 1940s, Nazi Germany was determined conquer the world. They had a two-pronged strategy:

1. Exterminate gay men
2. Defeat World Socialism

Led by Hitler, and funded entirely by Prescott Bush, the Nazis mercilessly committed atrocities such as having no concern for global warming and remaining silent on the issue of American slavery reparations. Fortunately, The Soviet People's Armies defeated the fascists - even though they failed to liberate Western Europe in the process.

As a consequence of the European War, the Jews, as capitalist fascists, needed a place to regroup. And so, they attacked the most vulnerable people in the world: The peaceful Palestinians. Without warning, the Jewish invasion of Palestine commenced. Immediately, neighboring Arab countries tried to defend themselves against this invasion, but their pacifist ways led to a quick defeat at the hands of the violent and blood-thirsty Jews - who also exterminated most of the Palestinians.

And yet, the surrounding Palestinian/Muslim population remained at peace. Frequently, the cry "Peace be upon you, Jew!" was heard from the antiwar sanctuaries called "mosques". Meanwhile, the Jews named their entity "Israel", and named their imperialistic goal of Middle East (and world) domination "Zionism".

Over the years, Zionist aggression has taken many forms. Certainly, the 1967 and 1973 wars of conquest were a major component of their strategy. But, more recently, they have been sending Jewish teenagers into the Muslim lands to detonate themselves as suicide bombers. (If you are unfamiliar with this, may I remind you that the Jews also successfully concealed the history of the Nation of Palestine.)

The Israeli parliament (called "Arabfrei" in German) has made the destruction of Arab Nations their only goal. Never mind that Arab countries were repeatedly offering land to Israel to make peace. (Remember, Arabs are Sun People, and peace is the essence of their nature.) When Egypt offered the Sinai Peninsula to Israel in 1967, for instance, the Zionist response was "Death to Arabs! Death to Muslims!" And the bombings continued, as Jews murdered Arabs on buses in Cairo, in clubs in Damascus, and in mosques in Mecca.
Then came "9/11" and everything changed. The Israeli secret service flew hijacked airplanes into the World Trade Center, The Pentagon, and a mosque constructed in a Pennsylvania corn field. (Assuming, of course, that the events of "9/11" happened at all.) The Amerikkkan president, George W. Bush, grandson of Nazi Prescott Bush, immediately exploited "9/11" to ally with the Zionist capitalist fascists in an all-out war against Islam, The Arabs, People of Color everywhere, and the Transgendered Community.

The Holocaust began in Iraq, where Bush began to conveyor-belt our children into the Middle East Death Machine. Army Rangers, Marines, and all the other military branches comprised of our helpless little babies, were sent into the grim muddled morass of the Middle Eastern quagmire. Without a plan, without hope, and without a shred of decency, the monsters of the military went to work in the new Abu Ghraib extermination camp, though they paused when a single brave woman, Mother Cindy Sheehan, demanded that our children be returned to our bosoms.
But the slaughter continued. The Amerikkkan drive for oil and the Zionist instinct for violent racial oppression worked in tandem to methodically annihilate our Islamic brothers and sisters. The Zionist rockets, thousands of them, were raining on what was left of Palestine and Lebanon -- until one day, a plea was heard from Lebanon. "Please, let us live in peace." This cry was echoed in the highest levels of government in the beleaguered Syria and Iran. "Please, can't we all just get along?"

Enraged, the Zionist war machine arose, and swore to obliterate any remnant of the Muslim world. The bloated Zionist pigs openly stated that their goal was world domination, and would not stop until their racist "Star of David" flew on top of every capital from Casablanca to Jakarta. Then they mercilessly attacked the Nations of Palestine and Lebanon, explicitly singling out civilians for death, torture, and the cruelest medical experiments. Worse than Hitler, indeed; this Jewish apple didn't fall far from the Nazi tree.

The future is very grim. Amerikkka's complicity removed the stabilizing influence of Saddam Hussein and his benevolent heirs. The cries of anguish from the European capitals are being ignored. The progressive demonstrations are not being effective.

But we can hope. We can hope for a return to a protective anti-Zionist umbrella of a reinvigorated Soviet Union under the leadership of President Putin. We can hope that the Iranian people will defend themselves from the Zionist nuclear threat. We can hope that the growing Islamic populations of Europe will be translated into political and military control. We can hope that assistance from a "white knight" such as Kim Jong-Il will be forthcoming.

And we can hope for the quick destruction of the fascist, capitalist, racist, homophobic, and sexist Amerikkka, the world's second-biggest threat.

The world's biggest threat is Zionism.

[Skybird]

Teach thyself, little boy in an old man's body. Your incredible level of snootiness is in desperate need for a cure - if you should ever desire to be taken as an adult, not a small boy feeling great when showing a loose tongue. Problems many have with you is not your opinion, but the arrogant way in which you deliver it. Maybe your snobbish behavior is good enough for the kids around the block you happeend to know in your youth, or your mates in the army. It is not good enough for many people here. Grow up, old man.

No more replies from me.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

go play with yourself 'bird... i won't respond to your obvious baiting... nor will i report them as personal attacks... your very words show you to be the child here...

you are the one acting in a juvenile manner...

it's as obvious as it is pathetic...

--Mike

[August]

Why oh why do you accuse me of lying about such simple things Mike?, if not a cover for your weak and self righteous arguments. Yes, i did indeed buy a Pathfinder yesterday. Not new mind, but yes i did pay cash. If you think this was foolish, then i disagree. Personally, i think it's foolish to pay 7% interest on a vehicle that looses 20% of its value just by driving it off the lot.

Yes i was in the Army. seven exciting years in the units i've mentioned, and no not as a clerk, or cook or any other paper pusher job. I was a radio operator if you must know MOS: 05C2P. No I'm not lying. Not that anyone needs to know such small details of my life but hey i'm not trying to hide anything and i only posted it to counter your childish accusation that all i do is sit by the computer waiting for your next stupid attempt to insult me.

One thing i've learned over the years is that liars never believe anything anyone else has to say, just as thieves always feel people are tyring to steal from them. This first part, judging by your posting style the former seems to fit you to a tee. I'd bet if I said i just took a big crap your very next post would be accuse me of lying about that as well.

I am who i say i am. I have no need or desire to lie. I'm a 46 year old former Eagle Boy Scout, US Army paratrooper, loving partner to my Rosey and Trade Teacher. Accuse me of lying if you want to Mike but all of this is pure, unadorned truth. There, that along with my forum profile should be enough information for you to track me down if you ever want to turn savage on me in Real Life. So accuse me of lying if you want Mike but all of this is pure, unadorned truth and i have nothing to hide from you or anyone else.

In answer to this you have called me a "Liar", a "savage", a "monkey", "deaf, dumb and blind", "brainwashed", "lacking in humanity", "without a soul", "lacking in humanity", oops i said that one twice, but i'm sure a few more choice things i can't be bothered to go back and search for. These are YOUR WORDS! Everyone on this board who's paying attention to our little tiff has read them. Then you have the gall to claim you didn't insult anyone? That is was only your "objective" opinion? :roll:
Weeeeel now, my "objective" opinion of YOU sir, is that you're a delusional southbound part of a northbound mule. :up: or in other words; "What's good for the goose..." (and no Mike, that's not Voltaire).

All I asked is "What are the Israelis to do?" Your response? "Killing is wrong" and "Just a few dedicated men could go in and clean up the situation". Don't even you realize how unrealistic that idea is? :damn:

Anyways...

Yeah i have more things to do in life than make posts on forums. I expect most of us on this board do. Personally, I like coming here because i actually like reading the viewpoints of the people who post to this board. I appreciate the, usually, intelligent debate.

Isn't that why you come here too Mike? Or are you just keeping tabs on your potential client base? See? I can make insulting accusations too. But to save you the trouble of feeling obliged to defend yourself, I don't believe that is true. I think you come here for the same reason we all do, because you like to.

So can we get on with the original discussion? It's, after all, what I believe we all came here for. I await your reply...

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

oh... so you bought a used car... again, what relevance does that have to anything being discussed here... why did you feel the need to have to tell us that you bought a pathfinder, and paid cash...

who cares...

and who cares what you did in the army... that's the point i was making...

lemme guess... the reserve or guard... right... that's what you sound like to me... i may be wrong, but you definitely sound like one of those weekend heros, who got out, and wants to impress someone with his war stories...

probably never even fired your weapon outof basic... it's your type that is usually so quick to start a war... to write of casualties as just another one of those things...

i was flight crew on C-130, C-141 for a bit more than 8 years... i used to drop you poor sons of uncle sam out of the back of planes for more times than i can count... and i did a few more things after that... yet you don't see me flying that around using it as some badge to validate what i am saying...

why do you feel the need to do that...

then you whine about personal attacks... yet you call me a boy, childish, whatsoever... hahaha... talk about the kettle...

ya know, it's easy to say things over the web... distant and secure... if you were here standing right in front of me, i wonder if you would be so bold with your words...

you may think i'm one of these right wing peacenicks or something... merely because i put forth the straight forward fact in your face, that the indiscriminant killing and destruction that the Israeli military is engaged in now is wrong...

it is tactically wrong, it is politically foolhardy, and it is morally repugnant...

hezbola needs to be controlled... eliminated if they can't also see the light... i remember the attack on the marine barracks not too long ago... but you don't kill off every Lebabese in order to get a few terrorists... if you do that, what separates you from them... your god won't... trust me on this... when your time comes to be judged, you'll be stacked up right with the rest of the souless animals that promote the taking of innocnent life...

or don't trust me on it... i really don't give a dogs bone one way or another...

just don't expect me to sit back and listen to your nonesense without taking exception...

anyone who would justify the killing of innocent civilians, no matter what side, for whatever reason whatsoever... is a savage, uncivilized, mentality... plain and simple...

i've said it before... and i will say it again...



--Mike

[August]

oh... so you bought a used car... again, what relevance does that have to anything being discussed here... why did you feel the need to have to tell us that you bought a pathfinder, and paid cash...

who cares...

and who cares what you did in the army... that's the point i was making...

lemme guess... the reserve or guard... right... that's what you sound like to me... i may be wrong, but you definitely sound like one of those weekend heros, who got out, and wants to impress someone with his war stories...

probably never even fired your weapon outof basic... it's your type that is usually so quick to start a war... to write of casualties as just another one of those things...

i was flight crew on C-130, C-141 for a bit more than 8 years... i used to drop you poor sons of uncle sam out of the back of planes for more times than i can count... and i did a few more things after that... yet you don't see me flying that around using it as some badge to validate what i am saying...

why do you feel the need to do that...

then you whine about personal attacks... yet you call me a boy, childish, whatsoever... hahaha... talk about the kettle...

ya know, it's easy to say things over the web... distant and secure... if you were here standing right in front of me, i wonder if you would be so bold with your words...

you may think i'm one of these right wing peacenicks or something... merely because i put forth the straight forward fact in your face, that the indiscriminant killing and destruction that the Israeli military is engaged in now is wrong...

it is tactically wrong, it is politically foolhardy, and it is morally repugnant...

hezbola needs to be controlled... eliminated if they can't also see the light... i remember the attack on the marine barracks not too long ago... but you don't kill off every Lebabese in order to get a few terrorists... if you do that, what separates you from them... your god won't... trust me on this... when your time comes to be judged, you'll be stacked up right with the rest of the souless animals that promote the taking of innocnent life...

or don't trust me on it... i really don't give a dogs bone one way or another...

just don't expect me to sit back and listen to your nonesense without taking exception...

anyone who would justify the killing of innocent civilians, no matter what side, for whatever reason whatsoever... is a savage, uncivilized, mentality... plain and simple...

i've said it before... and i will say it again...



--Mike
Look i only mentioned those things because YOU accused me of being something I am not, and no, not NG or USAR (not that those damn fine people deserve being used as an insulting term by you), but Regular by God US Army, and thats nothing I have to answer for, certainly not to the likes of you.

Whatever. Regardless of your insults and attempts to belittle me, i'm gonna continue posting my opinions to this board whenever the mood strikes me, and i'm more than willing to trade broadsides with you on the subject, our personal lives, or even in person if you really so desire. I'll not be the aggressor in this situation though as in spite of your accusations, I am no Savage. But i've given you enough information to find me if you really feel like backing up those words, so do what you feel is right.

As it stands i'm willing to let the people of this forum judge me by my posts here, are you? Or is that a savage attitude to take?

[Gizzmoe]

Time to close this thread.