First gangs, now Nazis into the army?

[Skybird]

That gangs send their members to military service ihn order to receive training and tactical knowladge that later the gang can take benefit of in local street and gang wars, I knew, and it has been repeatedly reported, for example:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-gangs01.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48017-2005Apr12.html
http://www.kfoxtv.com/news/7978035/detail.html
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=8278

But that Neonazis also are being send to military service in strength, and that racist extremists are intentionally tolerated even if they are identified by unit commanders surprised me:

http://context.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2006/07/14/120.html
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50713FE3B540C748CDDAE0894DE4044 82
http://www.thatsanotherfinemess.com/2006/07/08/are-we-creating-an-american-wehrmacht/

I wonder what this means for future gang wars, as well as the standard of moral conducts in the armed forces, at least in, as mentioned, "light infantry units".

An America that often refers to it's own canon of democratical and free values to be the exmaple that others sghould follow, should not accept these developements going on. Disturbing.

I also found this on the matter, it is free, but I haven't red it so far, since I just found it today:
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?pubID=597

[NeonSamurai]

This will also become a major issue for law enforcement as these gang members and other extremests will have better training (and likely equipment) then the police forces in general, and also represents a serious danger to SWAT teams who are the ones called out to deal with such people. Having suspects with training at least on par with SWAT training will meen alot more casualties for SWAT teams in the future. Also this creates the possibility of more military hardware being stolen by these gangs and extremist groups. Not just assault rifles (which lets face it are fairly easy to aquire and modify to full auto fire) but machine guns, anti tank rockets, plastic explosives, stinger missles, etc.

Honestly i think the US Military needs to wake up and see the threat. But right now they are ignoring it due to their large need for recruits for present military involvement, so they take almost anyone who meets the physical requirements. They realy need to start doing background checks, and stronger psychological profiling. People with psychological problems, associations with violent groups and orginisations, or with a criminal record (particularly anything violent) should be instantly rejected. Any existing military members who also fail to meet the above requirements should be immediatly discharged.

It wont stop the problem, but at least it will slow it down some.

[blue3golf]

Everyone joining the military now days has a background check done on them, this "tech check" taking about 3 days. Criminal records are looked at extensively, not just convictions but charges as well. Certain combinations or even single incidents depending on the law violation determines the enlistment elgibility. There really is no way to check what kind of groups someone has been associated with unless its by tattoos which are also checked or if it comes up in the background check. As with anything else there are ways to beat the system. The checks are there, it all depends on what shows up on them and how much a recruiter will ignore just to make quota.

[tycho102]

There are Crips and Bloods and MS-13 guys that come out of the army, and teach their fellow gangsta's some clever tactics. It's a problem, and the general population of America isn't worried about it just yet. We've got free wireless internet to consider, and we're trying to figure out who's going to win American Idol.

These same gangs are also managing to import AK-74's and AK-M's through our lax border security, which is one of the reasons why I'm so damned pissed about border security. Sure the drugs are coming through. Sure we've got Mexicans, not to mention Columbians and Syrians, swimming the Rio Grande and hopping the fence. Our gangs are also strapping up and spreading out across the whole country.

Who knows? Maybe they'll be the ones to actually fight back against the moslems when they take over?

America has got plenty of internal problems to do with, it's just that our growing pacifist population doesn't want to address anything. They want to run things like Clinton: Everything's fine and the economy is growing and my "legacy" is outstanding...unless it hits the news...keep whatever it is out of the news, I don't care who you have to kill.




There's plenty of work to be done, and the Republicans and Democrats aren't doing any of it.

[August]

It's also nothing new. The original motorcycle gangs of the 50's were primarily made up of veterans from the 40's. The gangsters of prohibition had more than their share of WW1 vets. Many of the outlaw gangs of our old west were civil war vets. Just about every outlaw group in American history had its share of ex soldiers.

I would venture to say it is similar with european and other nationalities as well.

[Ducimus]

US Army has been lowering recruting standards in order to meet their recruting quota's. They're now taking people they never would have a few years ago.

Couple articles i could find:
http://www.slate.com/id/2127487/
http://www.slate.com/id/2133908/

[NeonSamurai]

Yes that is true, however most of those individuals historicly, were "normal" civilians first, joined the military, fought a war and came back either screwed up, or with nothing left, and then got involved in criminal activities/gangs.

In this case, gang members and others are activly going out there and joining the military with the intent of learning their training, methods and tactics, then coming back to their criminal group and teaching the group what the person learned. Another issue is previously the millitary didnt realy focus on urban close combat, its only now that they are training in depth this sort of warfare, which is perfect for gang members, and other extremists, because they are almost garanteed to be fighting in such an environment. Can you imagine militarily trained gangs running around in large cities with modern military footsolider hardware?

We are already seeing the effects (ie criminals running around in body armor and assault rifles shooting up banks and police). Now imagine if these guys had real tactical training...

[Dust]

heat

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113277/

great streetbattle!

[Skybird]

Yep, the movie started boring, and then after over an hour when everything is peaceful and according to plan - all of a sudden and completely out of the blue one of the most intense and heavy combat scenes I have ever seen in a movie burst onto the screen and flattens every audience there is in zero time. Awesome dramaturgy, very well done in these sequences. Ein Kracher! :up:

[bradclark1]

When I joined the army in 1973 the army was filled with people given this choice. "Join the army and the charges will be dropped or go to jail". Maybe it's happening again to some extent. The armed forces are sucking in recruitment goals. As far as the gang members joining the army so they can teach their fellow gangsters is a stretch I think. Why put yourself in harms way in Afganistan or Iraq to learn fighting when you can more easily just hire vets or mercs to train them. Why risk gettting killed?
I think armed gangs taking over the country is better left to the movies.
One must also think about job opportunities for these people. Who would hire them? I wouldn't. Punks can't get a job, join the armed forces.
As far as graffiti and soldiers, thats been around for thousands of years. Remember "Kilroy was here"? That was a long time ago, now it's "The Crips were here" or insert your gang/group of choice. Nothing to get upset about. Probably get more of a beat on things by reading the s#!t-house walls. I think it's all just a bunch of statistics and the media is trying to make news again.

[sonar732]

I concur with the "military or jail" premise. I had a few shipmates in my boot camp late '95 who were given this choice.

[SUBMAN1]

I don't think you guys are seeing the big picture. i respect these guys - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48017-2005Apr12.html

Look at him! He made something of himself! He got out of the gang life and joined the military! He has turned himself from a lowest, least respected person in society and into someone who is now going somewhere! If he goes 'back' to gang life after his tour in the military, I must not know anything of human nature! i am sure it happens, but here is a boy, who turned himself into a man, has garnered respect, fought for his country, and has tasted sucess and knows he can suceed when he gets back home. Gangsters however feel that they can't stand on their own, can't make it in society, and need the ganster bond as a sort of child blanket for support. This guy no longer needs these bonds and will probably do well later on in life. I am proud of him that he got himself out of his downward spiral! He did what all is so called homeys are incapable of.

-S

[August]

I don't think you guys are seeing the big picture. i respect these guys - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48017-2005Apr12.html

Look at him! He made something of himself! He got out of the gang life and joined the military! He has turned himself from a lowest, least respected person in society and into someone who is now going somewhere! If he goes 'back' to gang life after his tour in the military, I must not know anything of human nature! i am sure it happens, but here is a boy, who turned himself into a man, has garnered respect, fought for his country, and has tasted sucess and knows he can suceed when he gets back home. Gangsters however feel that they can't stand on their own, can't make it in society, and need the ganster bond as a sort of child blanket for support. This guy no longer needs these bonds and will probably do well later on in life. I am proud of him that he got himself out of his downward spiral! He did what all is so called homeys are incapable of.

-S

Another thing to consider is that the military tends to give the people who have served a sense of investment in their country. We hold nothing more dear than that which we have earned/protected/obtained through blood, sweat and tears hard effort.

It also gets those kids out of the closed worlds of the slums, barrios and projects and gives them a new appreciation of just how good we have it here in America.

Also, while in they are forming the strongest of bonds with fellow Americans that they would never have met had they stayed in the ethnic and social enclaves they came from.

[The Avon Lady]

This isn't a new problem. I've heard about gang members joing up in the military in years past.

I think that everything should be done to detect them at rectruitment time. When association with a gang is discovered, they should be allowed into the military on probation, meaning if they're caught doing anything wrong, their punishment should be double or triple what any normal soldier would get. The rest is up to them.

[Skybird]

When I joined the army in 1973 the army was filled with people given this choice. "Join the army and the charges will be dropped or go to jail". Maybe it's happening again to some extent. The armed forces are sucking in recruitment goals. As far as the gang members joining the army so they can teach their fellow gangsters is a stretch I think. Why put yourself in harms way in Afganistan or Iraq to learn fighting when you can more easily just hire vets or mercs to train them. Why risk gettting killed?
I think armed gangs taking over the country is better left to the movies.
One must also think about job opportunities for these people. Who would hire them? I wouldn't. Punks can't get a job, join the armed forces.
As far as graffiti and soldiers, thats been around for thousands of years. Remember "Kilroy was here"? That was a long time ago, now it's "The Crips were here" or insert your gang/group of choice. Nothing to get upset about. Probably get more of a beat on things by reading the s#!t-house walls. I think it's all just a bunch of statistics and the media is trying to make news again.
I think you got it wrong a bit. It is not about taking over the country (maybe for those racist Nazo mobs, but not for oridnary crimninal gangs). When a gang is saving one of it'S members from street acion to give it a "cleaner" background and smaller or unimportant criminal record, then send it to the army for let'S say folur years, then this is more about getting their own structors trained indeed. I wanted to post another article too which I had red two or three months ago, but I did not find it again. It was about LA and that the polcie there already has noticed that rivalling gangs are using more dicipline and tactics both when they clash with each other, or when the commit an assault on a store. I assume that this phenomenon of 2more competent street gangsters" is not limited to LA. - What I also do not understand is why even identified Nazi leaders and racists extremists are tolerated, even if they got identified within units. Unfortunately, there seem to be indications that Nazis grow in numbers in European armies as well. Some months ago we hd some minor scandal in Germany when it became known that one or two highranking bundeswehrs officers openly joined a festivity of a wellknown extreme rightwing organisation, in uniform. Hm, let's say it was a year ago, not just some months. - Damn Hitler. After Muhammad unfortunately the most influential figure of world history.

[Bertgang]

Right, this isn't a new problem; on the opposite, I'd say that now is working a sort of reversed logic.

In the past, army and navy searched actively outlaws and other not specially kind people for recruitement, as just officers had an acceptable life there; now the same kind of people has new personal reasons to be enlisted.

So for the neo-nazist or neo-fascist thing; both partyes were born as sort of clubs for WWI veterans, leaded by veteran caporals; so, once veteran soldiers become black or brown shirts, now political extremists want become soldiers.

[bradclark1]

This isn't a new problem. I've heard about gang members joing up in the military in years past.

I think that everything should be done to detect them at rectruitment time. When association with a gang is discovered, they should be allowed into the military on probation, meaning if they're caught doing anything wrong, their punishment should be double or triple what any normal soldier would get. The rest is up to them.

When you see the recruiter, part of the paperwork asks/lists illegal organizations etc. like white supremacy and neonazi and that ends your enlistment efforts.
Being a gang member isn't illegal. Subman1 gives a good example of what a gang member can accomplish. Some change and stay in, some do their enlistment and go to school after, and some just don't change. Being a gang member isn't an illegal action.

[bradclark1]

I think you got it wrong a bit. It is not about taking over the country (maybe for those racist Nazo mobs, but not for oridnary crimninal gangs). When a gang is saving one of it'S members from street acion to give it a "cleaner" background and smaller or unimportant criminal record, then send it to the army for let'S say folur years, then this is more about getting their own structors trained indeed. I wanted to post another article too which I had red two or three months ago, but I did not find it again. It was about LA and that the polcie there already has noticed that rivalling gangs are using more dicipline and tactics both when they clash with each other, or when the commit an assault on a store. I assume that this phenomenon of 2more competent street gangsters" is not limited to LA. - What I also do not understand is why even identified Nazi leaders and racists extremists are tolerated, even if they got identified within units. Unfortunately, there seem to be indications that Nazis grow in numbers in European armies as well. Some months ago we hd some minor scandal in Germany when it became known that one or two highranking bundeswehrs officers openly joined a festivity of a wellknown extreme rightwing organisation, in uniform. Hm, let's say it was a year ago, not just some months. - Damn Hitler. After Muhammad unfortunately the most influential figure of world history.
As far as the gangs go couldn't that be evolution. Look at the movies, they are great training aids on how to do things.
As for Nazi leaders and racists extremists that would fall under UCMJ under a whole list of crimes and if they are practicing(right word?) their beliefs they should be punished. I find it hard to believe that they aren't.

[TteFAboB]

Unless it's legal to keep close scrutiny on these people after they leave the military, then the best place for them is exactly in the military.

You know where the neo-nazi is, what he's doing, where he's going, what he's writing and if you both happen to be in Iraq and you need any cannon-fodder, you know who to call.

[Wim Libaers]

When you see the recruiter, part of the paperwork asks/lists illegal organizations etc. like white supremacy and neonazi and that ends your enlistment efforts.
Being a gang member isn't illegal. Subman1 gives a good example of what a gang member can accomplish. Some change and stay in, some do their enlistment and go to school after, and some just don't change. Being a gang member isn't an illegal action.

Is it illegal to be a Nazi in the US? I thought that it was legal due to freedom of speech and association, as long as they aren't (proven to be) violent. Some of those organizations even organize public meetings.

[bradclark1]

Is it illegal to be a Nazi in the US? I thought that it was legal due to freedom of speech and association, as long as they aren't (proven to be) violent. Some of those organizations even organize public meetings.

Illegal was the wrong word to use. Persons entering the Armed Forces should be of good moral character. The underlying purpose of moral character enlistment standards is to minimize entrance of persons who are likely to become disciplinary cases or security risks or who disrupt good order, morale, and discipline.
I'm trying to find the questions asked.

[blue3golf]

I just graduated from recruiter school a couple weeks ago and the only way moral character is judged is from the background check and law violations or from what you know around the community. Even with the community part though unless it's something in writing it really dont count. Other than that either the question can't be asked for political reasons or they could just lie and there is no way to check up on it.

[bradclark1]

Thanks for the clarification.