U.S. vetoes biased resolution

[Yahoshua]

Thankyou Mr.Bolton.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_israel_gaza

[VipertheSniper]

Thankyou Mr.Bolton.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060713/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_israel_gaza

I hope that is sarcasm on your side...

[Yahoshua]

Not in the slightest my friend.....:D . I get great big smiles on my face knowing that friends from an armored unit based in the Golan is hammering Hizbullah into a crater.

Really brightens my day knowing that the end result will be a more secure border for Israel.

[Sea Demon]

Yup. Great news. Hopefully Israel will just do what needed to be done 30 years ago. The UN and their worthless resolutions have done nothing but set conditions for more violence. The only thing that will bring a lasting peace to that region is a decisive military victory.

Thanks Mr. Bolton.:up:

[Skybird]

There cannot be a decisive victory in that region. What they are in for is nothing else than eternal war without end. I have sympoathy for what the are doing, and why, but I see the limited potential of war. They eventually get back their captured soldiers. what they will not get is peace. And what they will get is even more Islamic people fighting against them. No walls hold eternally. They will live under constant siege until then.

[scandium]

There cannot be a decisive victory in that region. What they are in for is nothing else than eternal war without end. I have sympoathy for what the are doing, and why, but I see the limited potential of war. They eventually get back their captured soldiers. what they will not get is peace. And what they will get is even more Islamic people fighting against them. No walls hold eternally. They will live under constant siege until then.

Oddly enough I agree with what Skybird says there.

[Iceman]

Yep unless someone is prepared to wipe out the other totally and feed thier children to lions and send the other men into fight in the arena then it will be same ole same ole....while China and Russia sit on the sidelines...

[The Avon Lady]

Lions. Lions.

I know I put there here somewhere.

Here kitty kitty kitty..............................

[August]

There cannot be a decisive victory in that region. What they are in for is nothing else than eternal war without end. I have sympoathy for what the are doing, and why, but I see the limited potential of war. They eventually get back their captured soldiers. what they will not get is peace. And what they will get is even more Islamic people fighting against them. No walls hold eternally. They will live under constant siege until then.

Just what Islamic peoples are those Sky? The Iranians? They're already backing Hezbollah and Hamas, as are the Syrians, and Hezbollah already owns southern Lebanon and the Christians are either unable or unwilling to stop them. Other than those, I don't see Jordan getting involved, Egypt is a slight maybe but everyone else is either too weak militarily or too far away, and that includes the Iranians, to do more than funnel arms, funds and the occasional small band of wild eyed fanatics willing to die for Allah to do much else.

Really, I see the Israelis as having little choice in the matter. Prisoner trade? That's not going to stop the rockets from being fired at their civilians. That's not going to stop their people from being kidnapped and held for more ransoms. So what are they to do? Return to the pre 67 borders? I don't think anyone really believes the Islamists would stop there and everything would suddenly be hunky-dory.

Besides, even if the Israelis were to give in to Hamas and Hezboolahs demands, I seriously doubt it would by anything more than the most temporary peace and even that's doubtful. All it would do is allow their enemy some time to rearm and prepare for the next battle, and we all know there will be one regardless of whatever action the Israelis take.

On the other hand, strength is something the Islamists undoubtedly understand and fighting back has been the only thing that has ever worked, so I do not take as gloomy a view about the situation as you do. Twice in my life there have been times when the world figured the Israelis were goners. Both times they brilliantly proved the experts wrong and not only survived but dominated the massive Arab forces thrown against them. I seriously doubt they will have any more Islamic people fighting against them than they have now, but in any case they have proved repeatedly they can handle much, much more.

[Ducimus]

Oh, as if the Islamic world didnt hate us enough as it is, this is the icing on the cake.

I firmly beleive they're will never be peace in the middle east until one civlization or the other ceases to exist. Nothing less will ever resolve that conflict, and we (the US) will never be able to seperate ourselves from it.

Since were obviously supporting military action we may as well go full bore with it and be done with it.

[Onkel Neal]

Aside from saying I belive this or that, I wonder how widely this will escalate this time around. It seems to be spreading fast. Will Egypt and Jordan keep quiet? Is this going to be another major conflict?

[The Avon Lady]

Aside from saying I belive this or that, I wonder how widely this will escalate this time around. It seems to be spreading fast. Will Egypt and Jordan keep quiet? Is this going to be another major conflict?
I believe not. :p

[Ducimus]

Who knows. Personnaly im a little tired of it all, and i often wonder how we got dragged into it. Near as i can figure out, they started cursing the US sometime after israel kicked their asses during the 7day war. If documentaries ive seen on it are to beleived, it was such a stunning victory, the arabs needed a scape goat. (Heavy sarchasm here, from a supposed arab point of reference) "So the great big satin, MUST have been helping israel because there's just no way those dirty jews could have beaten an Arab nation on their own"! (end sarchasm)

I figure im probably misinformed, but thats as near as i can figure out how we first got dragged into this. The thing is, the whole conflict there seems to be the wellspring from which everything else follows. From what i can understand, it all starts there and then snowballs into other things.

edit:
Just wanted to add, i hope Isreal kicks their asses again. But real good this time.

[aaken]

Damn, I had planned to visit Jerusalem this summer! Crap, couldn't these people let me take my vacation and then start to kill each other?

[The Avon Lady]

Damn, I had planned to visit Jerusalem this summer! Crap, couldn't these people let me take my vacation and then start to kill each other?
Next time, fill in the "special requests" box on your reservation form. :yep:

:p

Actually, only the Upper Gallilee is affected. Everything below that is fine. The hotels here are doing business as usual.

[P_Funk]

I love this. The whole "war will show those Islamics whats what". I mean how naiive are you guys? War begets war. I'm sure that all the Lords in England at one point around 1914 or 1915 were sitting together sipping brandy saying "Those damned Teutons don't understand anything except strength. What will create eternal peace is pushing them back into their own nation, decimating it and then humiliating them. Yes certainly that will end this whole European war thingy."

Occupation and collateral civilian casualties has never made anyone fall in line. Look at Ireland. Did Bloody Sunday make the Irish calm down? No! It made them more angry and gave the IRA more recruits. This is personal to the Lebanese and the Palestinians. Their families are dying and their cities are being decimated. They are being told by the Israelis that diplomacy isn't an option. So what can they do? They do what most young people being attacked do. They join a militant group.

Now I know we could go on forever talking about who started what. Whether Israel has the right to be occupying Gaza or Lebanon. The fact is that from a strategic standpoint an all out invasion is a stupid thing to do. It only bolsters hatred. It cancels the peace process. Shedding blood only coulds things and makes it impossible to be reasonable.

Now that said Israel is out of control. Invasion? As I recall this incident started with the capture of one Israeli soldier. How does that lead to full scale war? This is a ridiculous over-reaction. The US vetoed the UN resolution because they always support Israel. Plus the US isn't in a position to be running interference in that corner of the Middle-East because it's drowning in Iraq.

The US is crazy just like Israel is crazy. War doesn't end hate. War doesn't create peace. How can the inverse of peace create peace? This skirmish is just an extention of all the emotion and hate and history between Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon and everyone else that's been festering since the end of the Second World War. And this won't end anything. It will make things less secure. Diplomacy creates security. War creates insecurity. Yeah okay. Occupy southern Lebanon and Gaza and you might stop missiles from being fired into Israeli cities. That just ends the use of missiles. That won't get rid of the people shooting the weapons, it won't get rid of the Palestinians or the Lebanese. It won't make fathers forget that their families were killed by Israeli Helicopter strikes. It won't make young people not feel violated and angry. All it will do is stretch Israel thinner accross the region, breed more hate, and give terrorists (on both sides) more power and cause the deaths of more innocent people.

[The Avon Lady]

I love this. The whole "war will show those Islamics whats what". I mean how naiive are you guys?
I would ask the same of you.
War begets war.
When you win wars, you beget peace.
I'm sure that all the Lords in England at one point around 1914 or 1915 were sitting together sipping brandy saying "Those damned Teutons don't understand anything except strength. What will create eternal peace is pushing them back into their own nation, decimating it and then humiliating them. Yes certainly that will end this whole European war thingy."
And before WWII the Brits were saying "war begets war."
Occupation and collateral civilian casualties has never made anyone fall in line.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/9828/19456oo.gif http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8904/japansurrendersheadline0ec.jpg

Does anyone teach you children history anymore?

Incidentally, there wasn't a single Israeli in either Gaza or Lebanon until last week. But keep on reading the funnies.

Oh and occupation by a Syrian puppet regime and Iranian backed terrorist groups isn't occupation? I see.................... :hmm:
Look at Ireland. Did Bloody Sunday make the Irish calm down? No! It made them more angry and gave the IRA more recruits. This is personal to the Lebanese and the Palestinians. Their families are dying and their cities are being decimated. They are being told by the Israelis that diplomacy isn't an option.
Here's some simple diplomacy. Hand back 3 soldiers in good shape and watch us return home. Plenty of diplomatic opportunity right there!
So what can they do? They do what most young people being attacked do. They join a militant group.
They can stop attacking. They can declare that their goal in life is not the annihilation of the Jewish state of Israel. But with a limited imagination and bumbling excuses like yours, no wonder they're not getting anywhere.
Now I know we could go on forever talking about who started what.
Read last week's news.
Whether Israel has the right to be occupying Gaza or Lebanon.
Read last week's news.
The fact is that from a strategic standpoint an all out invasion is a stupid thing to do. It only bolsters hatred.
What has history shown us when trying to appease an enemy dedicated on your destruction? Once again, just the opposite.
It cancels the peace process.
There is none.
Shedding blood only coulds things and makes it impossible to be reasonable.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3958/thesign0ou.jpg
Now that said Israel is out of control.
No. Lebanon is. Has been for decades. The Lebanese Army has zero control of the country.
Invasion? As I recall this incident started with the capture of one Israeli soldier. How does that lead to full scale war?
It is an act of war. Like duh!
This is a ridiculous over-reaction.
No. It is the right thing for any svereign country to do when being attacked by Islamic terrorists, acting as a proxy for thug states Syria and Iran.
The US vetoed the UN resolution because they always support Israel.
Nothing wrong with that.

Maybe they don't support the Dhimmi EU nor the OIC block in the United Nincompoops.
Plus the US isn't in a position to be running interference in that corner of the Middle-East because it's drowning in Iraq.
Anyone in America need a Lifesaver?!
The US is crazy just like Israel is crazy.
I find the world crazy, with opinions like your contributing to the world's problems.
War doesn't end hate.
That's not necessarily the goal of war.
War doesn't create peace.
As shown, it certainly can.
How can the inverse of peace create peace?
Because warring can end a war. So much sematic rhetoric!
This skirmish is just an extention of all the emotion and hate and history between Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon
Then talk to you Palis and Shi'ite Lebanese. We had little to do with them a few days ago. Try barking up the right tree.
and everyone else that's been festering since the end of the Second World War. And this won't end anything. It will make things less secure. Diplomacy creates security. War creates insecurity.
Once again, we have seen that this is very much not so.
Yeah okay. Occupy southern Lebanon and Gaza and you might stop missiles from being fired into Israeli cities. That just ends the use of missiles. That won't get rid of the people shooting the weapons, it won't get rid of the Palestinians or the Lebanese.
Here's a new term for you: "conditions of surrender." Actually and unfortuanetly, it seems a new term for Israel because Israel does not make itself clear enough in its demands. Lousy PR!
It won't make fathers forget that their families were killed by Israeli Helicopter strikes.
Boo hoo. The boor Balestinians and the boor Hizbalah lovers of peace. Boo hoo.
It won't make young people not feel violated and angry. All it will do is stretch Israel thinner accross the region, breed more hate, and give terrorists (on both sides) more power and cause the deaths of more innocent people.
So let's get rid of Israel.

Problem solved! :yep:

[The Avon Lady]

BTW, Funk, love your sig. Here's something that agrees with it:

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his.

Attributed to General George S. Patton.

[The Avon Lady]

Suggested reading: Moment of Truth (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23362).

Chose your side. It's who you are.

[micky1up]

so where do you start when they capture 1 man 10 men 100 men in isreal 1 man is worth fighting and dying for they are completely out numbered if your going to critise isreal first put yourselve in thier position its easy to sit in your comfotable house in a safe danger free county and have a go at a nation thats been under siege for decades think before you speak or dont bother speaking at all

[aaken]

Gee Micky1up, use punctuation!!! it's impossible to get something if you write 3 sentences without a point.

[sergbuto]

Giving in to islamist demands only strengthen them. Next time they come with even more demands. The only language they understand is the language of force due to the nature of their religion and mentality. Israel successfully proved that a number of times since the beginning of its state history.

I think the present situation is a direct result of giving in by Israel to muslim world demands in various aspects under push by US administration over the last years.

[Skybird]

The horrific aspect of all this is that although in the middle east violence is no solution that leads to peace (the one side will fight for its sheer survival, the other for ideological reasons that it gets pushed by beyond any reason, Islam) - there is no alternative to fighting. Although it could not lead anywhere good, there will be fighting as long as Israerl exists. A battle without meaning, in a way. I never understood what crazy thoughts were on person's mind when they founded the state of Israel in the way and in the place they did. It's a strategically undefendable position in the long term. Long term could mean: a century, or more. The last battle for Jerusalem lasted around 200 years.In a different way it reminds me of Dino Buzattis fabulous novel "The Tatarian Desert". There is the talk of a heroism and soldier's ideals that gets tired out without an enemy and without combat, battles and fights during the protagonist's lifetime. In Israel you have a situation of heroism that get's tired out by a hopeless fight - for you know that it will never end, no matter what you do.

[aaken]

The thing that strikes me the most is that Israelian government accused Syria and Iran of supporting hezbollah and hamas attacks. Yet they invade Lebanon and Gaza instead of going after Damascus and Teheran. If you think Damascus is the cause of your problems, why in hell do you bomb Beirut?

[The Avon Lady]

The thing that strikes me the most is that Israelian government accused Syria and Iran of supporting hezbollah and hamas attacks. Yet they invade Lebanon and Gaza instead of going after Damascus and Teheran. If you think Damascus is the cause of your problems, why in hell do you bomb Beirut?
Indeed. However, those employed by Syria and Iran and given a free reign to do as they please by the puppet regime in Lebanon are Hizballah and they are the ones who commited the attacks and are based throughout Lebanon.

You're right. In my opinion, Israel should be simulatenously bombing every Syrian government and military target to bits. Unfortunately, we've been spooked by our own shadows in recent decades.

[aaken]

Indeed. However, those employed by Syria and Iran and given a free reign to do as they please by the puppet regime in Lebanon are Hizballah and they are the ones who commited the attacks and are based throughout Lebanon.
And so? You go after the hand of your percieved enemy instead of striking his head? I mean, how many times has Israel bombed places in Lebanon because of Hezbollah attacks (without counting the two invasions in 78 and 82, for the same reasons I suppose)? And what have you accomplished?

[The Avon Lady]

Indeed. However, those employed by Syria and Iran and given a free reign to do as they please by the puppet regime in Lebanon are Hizballah and they are the ones who commited the attacks and are based throughout Lebanon.
And so? You go after the hand of your percieved enemy instead of striking his head?
Cutting off your enemies hands is not such a bad thing, you know. Think of Monty Python's Black Knight. ;)

You can bomb Syria to kingdom come but the weapons, logistal structures and the terrorists themselves are right now sitting in Lebanon. I don't think this is too difficult for anyone to comprehend.
I mean, how many times has Israel bombed places in Lebanon because of Hezbollah attacks (without counting the two invasions in 78 and 82, for the same reasons I suppose)? And what have you accomplished?
Actually, a lot was accomplished by the 82 invasion but not enough was done afterward to continue deterring Hizballah.

Anyway, if you're gonna route for the underdog, here's what they say (http://www.free-lebanon.com/). And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.

[The Avon Lady]

Well hello, Cain! (http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060714/3/2n5ti.html)

[Onkel Neal]

[And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.

I understand it. It wasn't our decision to institute a nation in the middle east, surrounded by arabs. Why is it our duty to run to the rescue?

Mark of Cain, that's pretty good. ;)

[scandium]

Who knows. Personnaly im a little tired of it all, and i often wonder how we got dragged into it. Near as i can figure out, they started cursing the US sometime after israel kicked their asses during the 7day war. If documentaries ive seen on it are to beleived, it was such a stunning victory, the arabs needed a scape goat. (Heavy sarchasm here, from a supposed arab point of reference) "So the great big satin, MUST have been helping israel because there's just no way those dirty jews could have beaten an Arab nation on their own"! (end sarchasm)

I figure im probably misinformed, but thats as near as i can figure out how we first got dragged into this. The thing is, the whole conflict there seems to be the wellspring from which everything else follows. From what i can understand, it all starts there and then snowballs into other things.

You are misinformed, and you were never "dragged into it". The US became a willing participant in the conflict (which began long before the Six Day war by the way) beginning with Truman, and continuing to this day with its annual $5 billion/year Israeli subsidy and preferrential arms sales (note that this is merely stating a fact, and not an opinion on the "rightness" or "wrongness" of it).

But back to Truman:

"Secondly, [the holocaust] evoked a world-wide feeling of sympathy with the Jewish people, mingled with guilt that more had not been done to deter Hitler's aggressions before the war, or to help Jews escape from Europe during its course. This was particularly the case in the United States, whose federal government had halted Jewish immigration during the war. Among those who became strong supporters of the Zionist ideal was President Harry S. Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman), who overrode considerable opposition in his State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_State) and used the great power of his position to mobilise support at the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, although he expressed very negative views of Jews in his diaries, and had, in a letter written years before he entered the White House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House), referred to New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) as "kike (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kike) town".[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#_note-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#_note-10) Since Britain was desperate to withdraw from Palestine, Truman's efforts were the crucial factor in the creation of Israel."

That's an exerpt from a very intersting article about the long history of the political movement to create a Jewish homeland ("Zionism") in what is now modern Israel. Its a good read, with a lot of links to other Wiki entries that detail other related events during Isreal's evolution from idea to established fact.

Recommended reading for anyone with an interest in this conflict and its roots (at least as a starting point; it is not the definitive account of the entire history surrounding this):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

[micky1up]

Gee Micky1up, use punctuation!!! it's impossible to get something if you write 3 sentences without a point.




you see thats why the world is in a mess people more concerned with punctuation than whats acctually happening out there get a life fool

[micky1up]

fact israel left lebannon under a un resolution with a promiss from the lebonese goverment that they would get rid of the terroists and stop the attacks so i consider this action completely justified remeber the terrorists violated israel to kidnap these men

[aaken]

Anyway, if you're gonna route for the underdog, here's what they say.
I could not care less if you bomb lebanon to dust. It was a nice country. Too bad.
You can bomb Syria to kingdom come but the weapons, logistal structures and the terrorists themselves are right now sitting in Lebanon. I don't think this is too difficult for anyone to comprehend.
I suppose that when Israelian government accuses Syria of supporting Hezbollah it means that Syria is providing the weapons, the logistical support, the money. I don't think it's hard to understand that just bombing the Hezbollah and not touching its logistical/economical/whatever support (Syria) will not solve the problem of rockets fired at Israel.
And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.
Thanks for the biblical citation. I suppose you failed to notice that most nations in the west (the ones you're calling Christian World) don't have religious governments. Which is what distinguished them from most islamic countries.

[aaken]

you see thats why the world is in a mess people more concerned with punctuation than whats acctually happening out there get a life fool

If all the idiots throughout history of humanity, like the quoted gentleman, would have expressed themselves in a way that everybody else could have understood (like using punctuation), probably there would be less problems and less idiots.

[Skybird]

A sword is meant to cut through something, or it remains in it's sheath. This is not understood by the West, who does not want wars again on the scale of WWI and WWII. So it draws a sword and slices slightly here, and a little bit there, and then regrets, and stops, and tries curing the damage, while nibbeling around somewhere else. Ir's a war of toys, a game. If you want to give Israel a future under these queer conditions under which it has been founded, you need a grandscale war against most of the muslim world simultaneously, effectively a WWIII, which probably will turn nuclear sooner or later and will embrace china and india as well. Or you shy away from an end with horror and prefer smaller horror, but without end, then you fight and negotiate with your enemy at the same time, well-knowing that these negotiations he only understand as to weaken you and to buy time to gain more strength himself. This choice is what it comes down to, imo. The middle East policy of the last 20, 30 years, and before is based on self-deceptions and naive illusions of the West, which means both Europe and America. It has been about avpoiding tough choices and wanting to be kind. It has not worked, it doesn'T work now, and it will never work that way. Either you fight, then put all your heart into it, or you don't - then better leave. There is no inbetween. Only politicians try to give that impression - to justify their own existence.

Maybe it is good that there is this conflict in the ME, there is always the chance that it somehow escalates and finally will force the West to make a clear decision, voting for a clear yes or no, and prevent him from deceive himself anylonger on what and whom he is dealing with. I see a realistic chance that Israel will fall in the long run, but I have no illusions about that it will not accept that fate silently, but will try it's best to bring down everything and everyone along with it'S own fall in a great noise. Including Europe. If something should be acchieved in military actions in the ME, then small wars are not good enough to acchieve that, nor is a hopping-in-hopping-out-acting. It needs to be a huge and unlimited one. And that scares people, they hide and hope they will fulfill their lifes without needing to vote on this issue. Let future generations settle the mess and pay for it.

[Gizzmoe]

Skybird, if you alone were in the position to decide a course of action (on a NATO scale), what would you do?

[micky1up]

you see thats why the world is in a mess people more concerned with punctuation than whats acctually happening out there get a life fool

If all the idiots throughout history of humanity, like the quoted gentleman, would have expressed themselves in a way that everybody else could have understood (like using punctuation), probably there would be less problems and less idiots.


your conviently forgetting that more people have died due to language problems not spelling or punctuation and religion kills more than a missed full stop or comma like i said if people were more aware of the worlds problems and not their own niggley and self righteous beliefs

1. could you read my post (answer most definatley yes)
2. could you comprehend it (answer yes)
3. can you get past your own attitude to accomodate other people ( probably no)
4. and if you need a full stop to let your brain know you need to breath then i fear for the state of mankind

[scandium]

And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.

You amuse me Avon. One day (or really every day) you are condemning the Islamic world for its extremists and their Jihad against the "Great Satan", stating militant Jihad is the very definition of Islam, and calling for Islam's extermination. Its a violent religion you say, not a religion of peace.

Now today you condemn the Christian world for not undertaking a Crusade against the "Islamic Cancer", and you denounce the Pope for condemning Israeli aggression and calling for peace.

[Gizzmoe]

micky1up, I agree with aaken. Do you also want to call me a fool now?

Here are some punctuation marks for you to copy and paste from:
,,,,,,,.......???????!!!!!!!

If you need more I can send them to you for free.

[micky1up]

micky1up, I agree with aaken. Do you also want to call me a fool now?

Here are some punctuation marks for you to copy and paste from:
,,,,,,,.......???????!!!!!!!

If you need more I can send them to you for free.


i couldnt give a toss if you agree with him or not if thats all you have to worry about in the world then you have a pretty sad existance

[STEED]

If the moderate Palestinian’s are so sick to the back teeth with Hezbollah ( which I have seen on the news) then it’s down to them to get rid of them once and for all. Hezbollah just can not see that there actions are killing Palestinian’s, I am not surprised Israel has hit back showing Hezbollah they will not take this crap from them anymore.

[aaken]

My dear Mick1up,

I've read your post, I did understand it but it could have been easier if you would have written it with some punctuation. That was my first remark. I do understand of course that there are more important things in life. So far I'm with you. Where I loose you is when you address me like:

get a life fool

Now, I'm an educated person but in real life, from where I come from, if a person that I don't know addresses me like that, it usually means he is looking for trouble and, although I'm usually a nice person, I don't have any problem whatsoever in teaching other people how to behave. If you cannot restrain yourself from getting personal and being rude with people you don't know just because they had the daring to ask you to put some punctuation in your posts, then feel free not to address me anymore on these (or any other) forums.

[Skybird]

Skybird, if you alone were in the position to decide a course of action (on a NATO scale), what would you do?

NATO alone is helpless in this. Let's imagine instead the aliens come down to Earth and give me all super-power that I want, gicing me the luxuray to ignore the selfish interests of Russia, India, China, the EU and the US, making me the master of the Earth.

Since what is happening now is just another feature of the same grim face, another symptom of the same basic conflict, my answer is much the same like what I have answered some months ago, and answered to Scandium just days ago.

Phase one: getting independent from Muslim oil, and stopping to fund Muslim influence in the West, and stop boosting their societies and countries with know-how and technology that could be used against us. Stop making your enemy strong, reduce his options instead.

After economically indepedence had been reached, phase two: actively driving back existing Muslim influence in the West, reducing Muslim presence in Wetsern societies beyond a level where they are not influential anymore. During this phase start to implement a strategy of mutual reciprocity: If Islamism attacks western people and nations, military retaliation on eqal terms, plus then something. Also beginning with a strategy of limited military strikes against industrial installation whose output could pose an active thread beyond the borders of Muslim nations: missiles, bombs, and ABC-related systems.

Phase three: after Muslim influence in Western nations has been neutralized beyond a level were it could be any kind of social or economical or cultural driving force, sealing off Muslim nations by military force, and effectively isolate them on military, political, economical and other level. Here at the latest, Muslim migration into the West must be brought to a total halt.

Phase four then is timely unlimited: establishing an adequate mechanism and force-structure that is capable to actively retain this isolation and keep it up until
a.) Islam world has died becasue of it's own Islamic being, or
b.) has substantially changed so that several prime dogmas and cultural key components of Islam'S theology and social culture as well are not only rejected, but in fact are no0 longer existent and actively wiped out by Muslims themselves.


This four-phase plan could be summed up in this: use as much force as needed to enforce Islam to radically and most fundamentally change, or to die out all by itself, die of it's own nature, to die of stagnation, cultural lethargy, social phlegmatism and rejecting any vital evolutionary developement. It is very much like what you do with a person suffering from a dangerous and highly infectious disease: you put such a person under quarantine. Islam has been a problem for all non-Islamic mankind it ever came into contact with, it is the source of constant aggression and violant expansion, hate, demands for subjugation of all others, gobal dominance. You cannot have a peaceful coexstince with it, like europe could not have had a peaceful coexistence with the Third Reich. This conflict we did not choose, we have no choice to pick it up or not - it is enforced upon us. Islam must change and stop being what it is - or it must die for the sake of non-Islamic mankind, or it must gain global supremacy and undisputed dominance, and nthat is a world to which I prefer to fight against it coming true. Only these three options I see available. The popular answer of option four, "peaceful coexistence", is not a realistic option in reality but a folly that history has rejected and illustrated by many examples to be unrealistic.

[Ducimus]

. I never understood what crazy thoughts were on person's mind when they founded the state of Israel in the way and in the place they did.

Two words:

Holy Land.

[micky1up]

My dear Mick1up,

I've read your post, I did understand it but it could have been easier if you would have written it with some punctuation. That was my first remark. I do understand of course that there are more important things in life. So far I'm with you. Where I loose you is when you address me like:

get a life fool

Now, I'm an educated person but in real life, from where I come from, if a person that I don't know addresses me like that, it usually means he is looking for trouble and, although I'm usually a nice person, I don't have any problem whatsoever in teaching other people how to behave. If you cannot restrain yourself from getting personal and being rude with people you don't know just because they had the daring to ask you to put some punctuation in your posts, then feel free not to address me anymore on these (or any other) forums.




so what your saying is that you advocate violence then as you have implied imagine what the world would be like if we all got upset about a few words on a web page now put yourself in israels place where your people have been kidnapped now thats if you can get to the threatening violence stage by just a few words what would you do if your fellow citizens got kidnapped by terroists


p.s i wasnt intending to be rude but i can if you want me to be

[Skybird]

. I never understood what crazy thoughts were on person's mind when they founded the state of Israel in the way and in the place they did.

Two words:

Holy Land.
"Holy" is a word that does not exist in my vocabulary. Not a single thing has ever come from it that was good. Or true, while we are at it. Holy speeches should be silenced, holy scriptures should be burned, holy deeds should be laughed about, holy places should be shattered, and holy men should be killed.

[Onkel Neal]

Here are some punctuation marks for you to copy and paste from:
,,,,,,,.......???????!!!!!!!

If you need more I can send them to you for free.


:rotfl:

[August]

"Holy" is a word that does not exist in my vocabulary. Not a single thing has ever come from it that was good.

Oh I dunno, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" was a pretty good sentiment.

[Iceman]

A sword is meant to cut through something, or it remains in it's sheath. This is not understood by the West, who does not want wars again on the scale of WWI and WWII. So it draws a sword and slices slightly here, and a little bit there, and then regrets, and stops, and tries curing the damage, while nibbeling around somewhere else. Ir's a war of toys, a game. If you want to give Israel a future under these queer conditions under which it has been founded, you need a grandscale war against most of the muslim world simultaneously, effectively a WWIII, which probably will turn nuclear sooner or later and will embrace china and india as well. Or you shy away from an end with horror and prefer smaller horror, but without end, then you fight and negotiate with your enemy at the same time, well-knowing that these negotiations he only understand as to weaken you and to buy time to gain more strength himself. This choice is what it comes down to, imo. The middle East policy of the last 20, 30 years, and before is based on self-deceptions and naive illusions of the West, which means both Europe and America. It has been about avpoiding tough choices and wanting to be kind. It has not worked, it doesn'T work now, and it will never work that way. Either you fight, then put all your heart into it, or you don't - then better leave. There is no inbetween. Only politicians try to give that impression - to justify their own existence.

Maybe it is good that there is this conflict in the ME, there is always the chance that it somehow escalates and finally will force the West to make a clear decision, voting for a clear yes or no, and prevent him from deceive himself anylonger on what and whom he is dealing with. I see a realistic chance that Israel will fall in the long run, but I have no illusions about that it will not accept that fate silently, but will try it's best to bring down everything and everyone along with it'S own fall in a great noise. Including Europe. If something should be acchieved in military actions in the ME, then small wars are not good enough to acchieve that, nor is a hopping-in-hopping-out-acting. It needs to be a huge and unlimited one. And that scares people, they hide and hope they will fulfill their lifes without needing to vote on this issue. Let future generations settle the mess and pay for it.

:up:

"In a war there are many moments for compassion and tender action. There are many moments for ruthless action - what is often called ruthless - what may in many circumstances be only clarity, seeing clearly what there is to be done and doing it, directly, quickly, awake, looking at it."

"It's impossible for words to describe what is necessary to those who do not know what horror means. Horror. Horror has a face... and you must make a friend of horror. Horror and moral terror are your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared. They are truly enemies........You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment. Because it's judgment that defeats us."

Apocalypse Now....

[Skybird]

"Holy" is a word that does not exist in my vocabulary. Not a single thing has ever come from it that was good.

Oh I dunno, ";Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" was a pretty good sentiment.
Sure. But what has that to do with "holy"?

[August]

"Holy" is a word that does not exist in my vocabulary. Not a single thing has ever come from it that was good.
Oh I dunno, ";Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" was a pretty good sentiment. Sure. But what has that to do with "holy"?
You said "good" and it came from one a few billion people consider to to be holy.

[Skybird]

:lol: I just told you what I think about "holy"! :lol: I do not exclude Jesus, Siddharte, me or everyone else from that! :rotfl: Pulling my leg, eh...? Billion people - that must not mean anything. Jesus indicated repeatedly that only a very extremely few find the truth, and Siddharta, when being asked how many people in his opinion live a worthful life, showed some dirt under his small finger's nail and said: "Compared to all the weight of the world - only that many!"

[John Channing]

Good debate (for the most part).

However...

the name calling and threats stops here, as do the personal insults.

Carry on.

JCC

[Yahoshua]

Oops.....I forgot to put "WORMS" on the label for the can here.

But anyway, a news update:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_61;_ylt=A9G_RynXHLhE7FwAzwYUvioA;_y lu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_nasrallah;_ylt=A0SOwlf2HLhENHkBjA ILewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_iran_syria;_ylt=A0SOwlf2HLhENHkBkAILewgF;_ ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

[August]

:lol: I just told you what I think about "holy"! :lol: I do not exclude Jesus, Siddharte, me or everyone else from that! :rotfl: Pulling my leg, eh...? Billion people - that must not mean anything. Jesus indicated repeatedly that only a very extremely few find the truth, and Siddharta, when being asked how many people in his opinion live a worthful life, showed some dirt under his small finger's nail and said: "Compared to all the weight of the world - only that many!"

No i said "billions" with an s, as in the plural of "billion", believe Jesus to be a Holy man.

Yeah i read what you said but I don't get it, are you saying you consider yourself to be a holy man and therefore you believe you also should be killed? And what does Siddharta (the inventor of Buddhism for those who don't know, though there's a slight chance Sky might be talking about the Slovanian rock band of the same name) have to do with Jesus?

[Skybird]

I have a small, whispering fella in my ear, he tells me that you know very well what I mean! ;) If you want to talk about this any longer, try this one first - I really have not much more to say about this stuff, and don't want to repeat it all when I just had fixed it in writing a few days ago: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95144

[bradclark1]

You have to have men who are moral... and at the same time who are able to utilize their primordial instincts to kill without feeling... without passion... without judgment... without judgment.

Amen.

[August]

I have a small, whispering fella in my ear, he tells me that you know very well what I mean! ;) If you want to talk about this any longer, try this one first - I really have not much more to say about this stuff, and don't want to repeat it all when I just had fixed it in writing a few days ago: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95144
Oh C'mon man, don't give me link to one of your long sermons. I'm just asking if you really feel that all traces of religion and it's main adherents should be stamped out with such thoroughness. The short version please.

Holy speeches should be silenced, holy scriptures should be burned, holy deeds should be laughed about, holy places should be shattered, and holy men should be killed
I mean you said this right?

Was it tounge in cheek? Maybe it was someone elses really horrible and dark view that you just forgot to put quotes on? I'm just curious.

[Ducimus]

I'd rather s put any meaning of the word "holy" aside, because that really doesnt have much to do with it. It's all about that spit of land. The same spit of land the crusades were fought over. Perhaps the crusades, never really ended?

[scandium]

I'd rather s put any meaning of the word "holy" aside, because that really doesnt have much to do with it. It's all about that spit of land. The same spit of land the crusades were fought over. Perhaps the crusades, never really ended?

The crusades ended long ago, and the "holy" thing has everything to do with why that spit of land in the ME is so contentious.

[Skybird]

I have a small, whispering fella in my ear, he tells me that you know very well what I mean! ;) If you want to talk about this any longer, try this one first - I really have not much more to say about this stuff, and don't want to repeat it all when I just had fixed it in writing a few days ago: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95144
Oh C'mon man, don't give me link to one of your long sermons. I'm just asking if you really feel that all traces of religion and it's main adherents should be stamped out with such thoroughness. The short version please.

Holy speeches should be silenced, holy scriptures should be burned, holy deeds should be laughed about, holy places should be shattered, and holy men should be killed
I mean you said this right?

Was it tounge in cheek? Maybe it was someone elses really horrible and dark view that you just forgot to put quotes on? I'm just curious.

You are a difficult, man. If I say Yes now, you necessarily would misunderstand it, I must conclude by the way you were led to ask me this question, but in the way you would understand it it wouldn'T be true. If I say No, it wouldn't be true as well.

I can't say it and found it any better then I did in that text, and it illustrates that I was not the first setting up these demands: Siddharta and Jesus said very much the same. Who am I to say they were wrong?

Read it or don't, whatever yo choose is okay. As I said in that other topic, I expect or demand nobody to read or to like it (I know by experience that most do not like it, for it tells them to change themselves), and I also have no intention to defend or to change or to summarize it any further. Do, or don't, that simple.

"If you meet Buddha, kill Buddha" http://www.langkawi.dk/smileys/b330.gif (Zen).

[Skybird]

I'd rather s put any meaning of the word "holy" aside, because that really doesnt have much to do with it. It's all about that spit of land. The same spit of land the crusades were fought over. Perhaps the crusades, never really ended?
Only the first crusade could be said to habe been successful, all others failed over a longer or shorter period of time. As the attempt to recapture land that before was conquered by Islam from the Byzantines, they definetly came to an end long ago. But that retake was only temporary.

[Sea Demon]

Sound advice from an Arab. The Palestinians would be well served to listen:

http://jewishworldreview.com/0706/ibrahim.php3

[The Avon Lady]

[And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.
I understand it. It wasn't our decision to institute a nation in the middle east, surrounded by arabs. Why is it our duty to run to the rescue?[/
I suggest you learn a little history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite).

[Ducimus]

I'd rather s put any meaning of the word "holy" aside, because that really doesnt have much to do with it. It's all about that spit of land. The same spit of land the crusades were fought over. Perhaps the crusades, never really ended?

The crusades ended long ago, and the "holy" thing has everything to do with why that spit of land in the ME is so contentious.



I was trying to steer the conversation away from addressing religion directly. Although religion and all its stupidity is why the so called "holy" lands are still a source of conflict. To my understanding the whole point of the crusades (apart from poltilcal agenada from the church at the time) was to take the holy lands back from the grasps of islam. So if the bloody crusades ended, then why is this land still being fought over? Palastine? I don't think so. The undertone to palastine is that its a Muslim state. Arabs don't want anyone but muslims in the holy lands, so naturally they rally to Palastine.

So from that perspective the crusades never really ended. Or.. maybe they did end but they resumed under a different guise. Either way its not over. Those ragheads still call westerners infidels and crusaders for crying out loud... kind of a clue as to their mentality. Im going to keep saying this, because of the nature of the area being fought over.. that area being the birth place of two of the worlds largest religions. There will be no lasting peace until one side or the other ceases to exist. It just wont happen any other way.

[Onkel Neal]

[And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.
I understand it. It wasn't our decision to institute a nation in the middle east, surrounded by arabs. Why is it our duty to run to the rescue?[/
I suggest you learn a little history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite).

Ah, I see you were refering to Christians in Lebanon, my mistake, I didn't read the topic carefully and thought it was refering to Christians worrying about Israel. As for Christians in Lebanon, I really don't care. They are not "my own people".

[The Avon Lady]

[And I fail to understand the Christian world's standing by for decades while their own people have been slaughtered and put through daily living hell by the Islamic cancer that Lebanon seems to have succumbed to. The Bible's cynical verse "Am I my brother's keeper?" rings out against a large part of the world who let their own brothers and sisters endured what they have until now. The Mark of Cain.
I understand it. It wasn't our decision to institute a nation in the middle east, surrounded by arabs. Why is it our duty to run to the rescue?[/
I suggest you learn a little history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite).

Ah, I see you were refering to Christians in Lebanon, my mistake, I didn't read the topic carefully and thought it was refering to Christians worrying about Israel. As for Christians in Lebanon, I really don't care. They are not "my own people".
Have you ever thought of adopting? :p

[SSG Perkins]

I understand it. It wasn't our decision to institute a nation in the middle east, surrounded by arabs.

This goes beyond "Holy Land"...

My history might be a bit fuzzy, but weren't the twleve tribes of Isreal around in that area a LONG time before there ever was an Islam?

Skipping over a couple thousand years of history (where the area was owned by a whole bunch of different peoples/cultures/nations - ie the Romans, the Persians, the Ottoman Empire, etc.) we find that the Arabs agreed to let the Isrealis have their own independent state back in '17 according to an agreement crafted by the British. Then they proclaimed independence from Britian (it was British territory prior to '48).

This was not an example of a bunch of Isrealis that one day decided to march into into some foreign land as conquerors.

Also, I feel that Isreal has been quite tolerant of their neighbors, considering what they have to deal with. In '48, Isreal offered a deal with surrounding countries, like Jordan, that would allow 75,000 Palestinians to legally immigrate to Isreal, but none of the surrounding Arab countries wanted them. To this day, Isreal is one of the few countries that will accept palestinian as immigrant citizens; Egypt, Jordan and other Arab countries won't, Palestinians in these contries are still only offered refugee status.

I believe that all this has more to do with perversion of Islam than with "Holy Lands". This is similiar to the period of Christianity that was darkened by the crusades. (as a Christian I will never defend the crusades.) Basically, a bunch of power mongers hiding behind their religious front (the early organized Papacy) decided that they could ignore the teachings that were the foundation of their faith and go out looting and questing for glory killing whoever got in their way. The crusades were wrong and it is a good thing that they ended.

I believe the same thing is happening today with Islam. The cause of the problem is not Arabs (or Persians in the case of the Iranians) nor is it the pure teachings of the religion of Islam. Just as most Christians during the crusades weren't evil people, niether are most Muslims. However, there are those Muslims today that are no better than those that participated in the crusades. They use religion to gain power and pervert their teachings so that they can go around causing all sorts of problems (I have never read the Koran, but I have tried to do some research and I can't find an instance where Mohammed said it was alright to kill innocent children and other Muslims).

So, now we've got a bunch of Islamic radicals that go around blowing people up, attacking innocents and making a general nuisance of themselves. They do it in the middle east (and around Africa), Europe, the US, China, Indonesia, Russia...I didn't know that all these places were Muslim holy places. If this was about "Holy Land", the only one dealing with this problem would be Isreal. (Yeah, the argument can be made that Christians aren't any better, citing the crusades, the inquisition, etc. The difference is that we "got smart" and cut that stuff out a long time ago.)

It is my opinion that the motive for this kind of behavior is a simple grasp for power and the fear of losing what power they have. (A good example are progressive Muslim countries where women can vote - even these countries are targets from radicals because heaven forbid the men don't have absolute power over their women). The zealot nut jobs who run these countries indoctrinate and pervert the typical Not-Evil-Basically-Decent-Human-Being type Muslims that make up the majority of their population and send a bunch of poor kids who don't know any better to blow themselves up (BTW, if their cause is so righteous, why aren't the leaders strapping the bombs on?) I find it hard to belive that normal human nature (flawed though it be) is not to strap a bomb onto your own kid.

So, how do we stop it? I don't believe that we have to wipe out any cultures, religions or whole races of people; nor do I think it would be possible to erradicate nut-job radical Muslims, there will always be those (just as there are radicals who pervert the teachings of Chritianity and Judiasm). The answer to the problem is to remove the nut jobs from power, let the average Muslim taste true freedom, and not allow the nut jobs the opportunity to indoctinate future generations of Muslims with hate filled and warped doctrine.

I am not naiive; this is not an easy task. Those seeds of power were sown a long time ago and they have used all that time to spread their atrocious ideology, but it must be done!

And it should not be done just in the Middle East, it should be done everwhere where there are murderous cowards preying on the ignorance and poverty of their populations for their own sick ends.

Why is it our duty to run to the rescue?


The one universal, basic human right is freedom; freedom to belive what you want (without the fear of being beheaded), the freedom to raise your family with your beliefs and the freedom to protect what you have worked for. That's all the Isrealis want. They want to go to work, to school, to go about everyday life without the fear of being bombed. The UN agreed- they called for the disarmament of Hezbollah and for a buffer zone of Lebanese troops to protect Isreal from Hezbollah. But like always, the UN is a prostate, dated and useless organization whoese mandates are useless. So the Isrealis have stepped up to the plate. (If your neighbor was throwing grenades at your house and the city police didn't do anything about it, you would protect your home yourself, wouldn't you?)

So if the UN isn't going to follow it's own charter to protect the innocent (reminds me a lot of Ruwanda, Sudan, Sierra Leone, East Timor, et al...) then someone has to do it.

I carried a rifle for the US Army for twelve years, saw combat, was shot in the line of duty and contracted a rare nervous system disease due to exposure to "unknown agents", so I say this knowing full well the ramifications of what I am about to say:

We are not the world's police force, but we are a super power. We have the moral obligation to put our young men and women in harm's way in order to protect the life and freedom of innocent people all over the world. Our obligation to free people from the bonds of oppression (in this case the opression caused by governments owned by Islamic radicals who want to see the total annihilation of other nations) is no less a mandate today than it was when we went to Europe to help them fight Nazis. It is the same thing- powerful nut jobs raising hell and killing people need to be taken out by someone with enough guns and guts to do it. That's why we went to Germany, that's why we went to Afghanastan and Iraq (regardless of what a bunch of clueless people say about W's quest for oil) and that is why we should support Isreal (though I doubt we need to run to their rescue, I trained with some Isrealis at Ft Bragg and those guys are pretty bad-ass). This obligation is the price we must pay willingly for the freedom and prosperity.

This is why the US and other peace loving people should supprt Isreal, now more than ever. (Luckily, there are a few other countries that still remember that evil exists and needs to be eliminated for the good of all mankind; countries like Isreal, England, Australia, Poland, etc.) Then the US and these other countries (forget the UN) need to go and do the same thing everyhwere there is tyranny. We need to overthrow every warlord, every dictatorship government and spread real freedom to these places. Only then will the world be a truly safer place. Idealistic? Yes. Difficult? Most definately. Necessary? Absolutely!

(I find it amazing that people who live in freedom loving countries don't realize or remember the struggles and conflicts that were necessary to make them that way...)

Just my 2...or rather 4 cents worth.

[Onkel Neal]

Have you ever thought of adopting? :p

Have they got any oil for sale?:lol:

[Skybird]

Have you ever thought of adopting? :p
:lol:

[Yahoshua]

Excellent post Perkins, just one little statement:

Islam is technically a culture in and of itself, a primitive, backward, and violent culture. Get rid of Islam, and we get rid of the headache.

But other than that, it was an excellent post.

Btw, do you go to HK94 forums? I seem to recognze your writing (typing in this case) style but I can't seem to connect it to a name.

[John Channing]

As for Christians in Lebanon, I really don't care. They are not "my own people".

All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: ...No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Couldn't resist!

JCC

[SSG Perkins]

Btw, do you go to HK94 forums? I seem to recognze your writing (typing in this case) style but I can't seem to connect it to a name.

Sorry, I don't. I googled "HK94" forums, but I have never posted anything to it; this is one of the only three forums I participate in and I am brand new here.

[scandium]

So if the bloody crusades ended, then why is this land still being fought over? Palastine? I don't think so. The undertone to palastine is that its a Muslim state. Arabs don't want anyone but muslims in the holy lands, so naturally they rally to Palastine.
Palestine is the focal point, and its creation goes all the way back to the 1st century when, after a failed Jewish revolt, the Roman emperor Hadrian expelled most Jews from what was then Judea and renamed this Roman province Syria Palestinia, or Palestine. Roman administration of Palestine (as part of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine empire) ended around the 7th century when the region was conquered by the Arabs. Throughout this period boundaries were shifted around and then in the 11th century there was the Turkish invasion, followed by several centuries of crusades from the Europeans, and then finally in the 16th century things began to settle down as the region was fully incorporated into the Ottoman Empire. This takes us closer to the present time, but first a brief detour.

From the late 19th century onward there was a serious interest among the scattered Jewish peoples, who having throughout history been persecuted and treated like 2nd class citizens and with suspicion and scorn by the host cultures where the Jews were always a minority and often a convenient scapegoat, to create a Jewish a homeland where they would not be persecuted and not be treated like 2nd class citizens. This somewhat fractured movement (it was never a cohesive movement that everyone subscribed to) was given the name "Zionism" and a land for the people to settle in was chosen (what was then the region of Palestine, formerly Judea, presently Israel) though the leaders had not agreed yet as to whether they would create there a simple Jewish "homeland" or a full fledged Jewsish state.

In 1876 Rabbi Joseph Nantonek applied to the Ottoman Sultan for permission to settle Jews in the Palestinian region and this request was denied, the Sultan being disinclined toward any large scale immigration into Palestine he replied that almost all the lands of Palestine were occupied and that the autonomy sought by Nantonek went against the Ottoman administrative principles of the state. Nevertheless, significan Jewish immigration into the area did begin to occur, and the new immigrants created collective farms and in 1909 founded the city of Tel Aviv. However throughout the last decade of the 19th century the total number of Jews in Palestine was never more than 60,000 out of a total population of 500,000. Thus, though they had begun to emigrate to the region in earnest, they remained a very small minority at that time.

The 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement envisioned that most of Palestine would become an international zone once freed from Ottoman control, however the Balfour Declaration of 1917 laid plans for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine eventually and in 1918 the British led Egyption Expeditionary Force captured Jerusalem in December of 1917 and defeated Turkish forces in Palestine only a year later.


To the best of my knowlede, the crusades and various other political upheavels aside, that up until this point the Arabs and Jews in the region lived more or less peacefully together - that is, that terrorism in the region as it has come to be characterized was not a problem there. When the Jews began to settle in Palestine in small numbers they were ignored. When they began to come in larger numbers and it became evident that their goal was to occupy Palestine and turn it into a Jewish state, that's when things began to change.

From 1920-1948 this region was referred to formerly as Palestine and adminstered under the British Mandate. This mandate however was short lived, owing to a deterioration of conditions in Palestine as the result of armed attacks against the British by the Jewish militant factions that included the Lehi (referred to by the British as the "Stern Gang" and considered a terrorist group that had gone so far as to offer an alliance with Nazis against the British) and the Irgun (also classified by the British as a terrorist organization), and owing decling World Opinion against Britian as the result of a British policy that prevented Jewish Holocaust survivors from reaching Palestine. And finally, too, there was the cost of maintaining in Palestine a 100,000 man force at a time when the British economy was in ruins in the wake of WWII. Thus in 1947 Britain announced it would terminate its mandate in Palestine, and handed responsibility for the region to the newly created U.N.

The U.N. General Assembly announced a partion plan for Palestine that would partition the region into two separate states: a Jewish state, and an Arab state. Jewish leaders accepted the plan, Arab Palestinian leaders did not, nor did neighbouring Arab states. On May 14, 1948 the state of Israel was proclaimed, the following day the British Mandate ended, and then began the Arab-Israeli war of 1948.

The Arabs lost that war, the wars that followed, but the conflict remains and it will always remain and it comes down to this: you can not occupy, by force and by fiat, a piece of land where you are the hated minority - unless you are willing to exert the kind of iron grip, repression, terror, and collective punishment through the full force of the state's military might, such as what Saddam Hussein employed to keep his hold over the Shia majority that despised him.

Nevertheless, Israel, because of its Jewish peoples' horrific history as victim of crimes innumrerable in almost every place they've ever inhabited, demands an autonomous homeland where no government can victimize and persecute them and where they can exercise self-determination. I sincerely believe they have that right, that it is owed to them, and most of the world also believes this as well.

The problem is they (and the U.N.) picked the wrong place to put it.

Some sources for the historical info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%2870%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

[scandium]

Get rid of Islam, and we get rid of the headache.

While you're working on that one, allow me to suggest a few other minor headaches we might want to get rid of as well:

a. poverty
b. famine
c. disease (all diseases)
c. global warming
d. nuclear proliferation

I could probably think of a few other little headaches that are easily solved, but I'm not in the mood right now as I have an actual headache of my own - part of the common cold we still haven't found a cure for. If you can at least cure that then get back to me on it please.

[Skybird]

According to that logic: so we may not adress poverty as long as we cannot drive back gloabl warming at the same time? And nuclear proliferation is not an issue worth to be solved by it's own as long as we cannot wipe out all disease simultaneously (which will never happen, since there always will be new diseases)?

that cannot be a serious argument.

[Takeda Shingen]

Withdrawn. Such an arguement is in direct violation of my theory of the futility of arguement. My apologies to the forum members at large.

[Onkel Neal]

Get rid of Islam, and we get rid of the headache.

While you're working on that one, allow me to suggest a few other minor headaches we might want to get rid of as well:

a. poverty
b. famine
c. disease (all diseases)
c. global warming
d. nuclear proliferation

I could probably think of a few other little headaches that are easily solved, but I'm not in the mood right now as I have an actual headache of my own - part of the common cold we still haven't found a cure for. If you can at least cure that then get back to me on it please.

You left out:

e. spam
f. hackers
g. software pirates
h. Commies!

[scandium]

According to that logic: so we may not adress poverty as long as we cannot drive back gloabl warming at the same time? And nuclear proliferation is not an issue worth to be solved by it's own as long as we cannot wipe out all disease simultaneously (which will never happen, since there always will be new diseases)?

that cannot be a serious argument.
That wasn't my arguement. But if you're going to eradicate something you need certain ingredients: a plan that will not exacerabate the problem you are trying to solve; a movement to bring awareness of the problem to the masses; a leader to lead the movement and ensure unity of purpose and action; and, lastly, and most importantly, power on at least a national - if not international - scale to act on the problem you intend to solve.

All the things I gave examples of are problems where we are somewhere along this point toward a solution, though nowhere near it. Where do you see yourself within this framework on the "problem" of Islam, which appears to me no less insurmountable?

[Skybird]

Can't follow your way of connecting things that have nothing to do with each other.

[scandium]

Can't follow your way of connecting things that have nothing to do with each other.

Everything is connected. I thought you were a Buddhist, you should know this ;)

[Skybird]

You thought wrong.

[Yahoshua]

Well everything except for C&D can be easily taken care of...problem being nobody that has the capability to do it has the willpower or motivation to make it happen....