Joystick Recommendations…

[Winston]

Hello there all. About six mounts ago I spent around £80 on a Saitek x52. For these six months it has served me well. Controlling my Su-25 as I drop unguided bombs on the heads of insurgence everywhere I find them. It’s got great functionality and very easy to program. I’m still working on a Steel Beasts Pro PE profile. In fact it was just as I was in the middle of learning this excellent simulation when I adjusted the handle to fit my brother’s hand so he could have a go at shooting some tanks. He was very good, better than me even with some practice.

Anyhow, after some time he left after expressing his enjoyment of the simulation and the joystick. Then after I re-adjusted the handle back to fit my hand I went back to playing determined to improve my gunnery skills. However I was very sad to find that one of the most useful switches had stopped working. This particular switch acted like a ‘shift key’ on your keyboard, allowing you to map two actions to one button. I.e. button No.4 activated my night site while button No.4 + the shift button at the same time changed the polarity of the night site…White/hot vs. Black/hot you know the drill. All in all I was building a very effective and efficient profile.

Next day I visit there website and ask if there is anything I can do to sort this stick out. The only answer I get is to take it back to the store. Crap, I thought. Only last week I got rid of the box in to a skip and as I got it from an on-line retailer there would be all this rigmarole of sending it back bla bla ect…I decided in the end the open the bugger up to see if I can fix the thing, being a dab hand with the iron I thought I’d have a chance to sort it out.

Anyway, getting in to the stick with out destroying it seems imposable, lucky for me the switch was located on the outside of the stick and I managed to un-screw these three tiny little screws even though I was unable present to screwdriver tip to the screw head perpendicularly due to the design of the handle. After much prodding, probing and twisting I managed to get them out. Looking in to the housing I find that sure enough one of the wires had come lose after the total of three adjustments to the handle (on which the switch is mounted) over the last six months. So now I take the tiny switch apart and in the possess an even smaller spring falls out, after looking for that bastard for 5 minuets on my floor I solder the tiny wire back together (Also very difficult despite my small, steady hands). I was thinking of taking a picture but the objects were just too small for my camera to focus on.

After putting it all back together the bugger worked, Send it back my arse! Anyway, it seems to me that this stick was never intended to be repaired if something died on it. Though I never investigated the option I guess after I had sent it back to the online retailer they would have had to have got a whole new stick just ‘cos on one tiny wire coming lose. Out in some dustbin with it, what a gip! What a waste.

Now I have decided that the stick is an unacceptable risk. What if the bastard goes down again in the middle of combat and not just training? My tank would be immobile until I got sent a replacement! It let me down and to be frank I’m not happy even though it’s back at 100%

So I’m in the market for a new joystick. First off, I buy very few personal items other than books, DVD’s and the odd simulation so I don’t mind spending a bit to get real quality. It has to be robust and easy to repair. It has to be a good joystick that will allow precise aiming so that I might be able to deliver death to my enemy’s efficiently. Spare parts should be readily available so that I might be able to get it back in the fight if it goes down. I don’t mind having to spend time to look after things, I own a few analogue synthesizers so I often have too get the old iron out at times, hell I even enjoy it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Also sorry about all that back story, just frustrated about how things are made these days. Really gets me down.

[SUBMAN1]

Hello there all. About six mounts ago I spent around £80 on a Saitek x52. For these six months it has served me well. Controlling my Su-25 as I drop unguided bombs on the heads of insurgence everywhere I find them. It’s got great functionality and very easy to program. I’m still working on a Steel Beasts Pro PE profile. In fact it was just as I was in the middle of learning this excellent simulation when I adjusted the handle to fit my brother’s hand so he could have a go at shooting some tanks. He was very good, better than me even with some practice.

Anyhow, after some time he left after expressing his enjoyment of the simulation and the joystick. Then after I re-adjusted the handle back to fit my hand I went back to playing determined to improve my gunnery skills. However I was very sad to find that one of the most useful switches had stopped working. This particular switch acted like a ‘shift key’ on your keyboard, allowing you to map two actions to one button. I.e. button No.4 activated my night site while button No.4 + the shift button at the same time changed the polarity of the night site…White/hot vs. Black/hot you know the drill. All in all I was building a very effective and efficient profile.

Next day I visit there website and ask if there is anything I can do to sort this stick out. The only answer I get is to take it back to the store. Crap, I thought. Only last week I got rid of the box in to a skip and as I got it from an on-line retailer there would be all this rigmarole of sending it back bla bla ect…I decided in the end the open the bugger up to see if I can fix the thing, being a dab hand with the iron I thought I’d have a chance to sort it out.

Anyway, getting in to the stick with out destroying it seems imposable, lucky for me the switch was located on the outside of the stick and I managed to un-screw these three tiny little screws even though I was unable present to screwdriver tip to the screw head perpendicularly due to the design of the handle. After much prodding, probing and twisting I managed to get them out. Looking in to the housing I find that sure enough one of the wires had come lose after the total of three adjustments to the handle (on which the switch is mounted) over the last six months. So now I take the tiny switch apart and in the possess an even smaller spring falls out, after looking for that bastard for 5 minuets on my floor I solder the tiny wire back together (Also very difficult despite my small, steady hands). I was thinking of taking a picture but the objects were just too small for my camera to focus on.

After putting it all back together the bugger worked, Send it back my arse! Anyway, it seems to me that this stick was never intended to be repaired if something died on it. Though I never investigated the option I guess after I had sent it back to the online retailer they would have had to have got a whole new stick just ‘cos on one tiny wire coming lose. Out in some dustbin with it, what a gip! What a waste.

Now I have decided that the stick is an unacceptable risk. What if the bastard goes down again in the middle of combat and not just training? My tank would be immobile until I got sent a replacement! It let me down and to be frank I’m not happy even though it’s back at 100%

So I’m in the market for a new joystick. First off, I buy very few personal items other than books, DVD’s and the odd simulation so I don’t mind spending a bit to get real quality. It has to be robust and easy to repair. It has to be a good joystick that will allow precise aiming so that I might be able to deliver death to my enemy’s efficiently. Spare parts should be readily available so that I might be able to get it back in the fight if it goes down. I don’t mind having to spend time to look after things, I own a few analogue synthesizers so I often have too get the old iron out at times, hell I even enjoy it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Also sorry about all that back story, just frustrated about how things are made these days. Really gets me down.

There is only 1 answer - Thrustmaster Cougar. Has a mil rating, and its buttons and entire stick is metal (Weighs about 21 lbs for both throttle and stick together). You won't break it.

I swear by mine. Enough said.

http://www.thrustmaster.com/eng/d_prd.php?p=T65&fam=6

-S

[Skybird]

CH Fighterstick and ProThrottle. No way you ever get me onto something different. Very good quality. Very flexible and rich programming capabilities, very easy programming tool (easy handling, you can still do a lot of very complex things with it, if you want). I'm using mine since 8 years, I think. Still wait for the first problems showing up.

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/index.html

I never swear. And I could say a lot more. :D

[SUBMAN1]

CH Fighterstick and ProThrottle. No way you ever get me onto something different. Very good quality. Very flexible and rich programming capabilities, very easy programming tool (easy handling, you can still do a lot of very complex things with it, if you want). I'm using mine since 8 years, I think. Still wait for the first problems showing up.

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/index.html

I never swear. And I could say a lot more. :D

Man! I thought you'd have something more high tech than that! I guess it works, but is rather limited. To fight someone with that online vs someone who has what i have is just plain not fair. I can program 100's of macros to automatically do things the way I want them. Ever seen what XP looks like in the joystick panel with 10 axis and 32 buttons? Its rather humorous!

We should start a pool and get you funding for a HOTAS Cougar! :)

-S

[Skybird]

Windows Joystick Panel? Little do you know! The hardware comes with it's own programming software, like Couhgar, but more easy to use, for my taste. Press the button you want to program (or click it in the tool panel) and eneter the key or strings. Afterwards you can define keypress durations, functionality on pressingand/or releasing the key, and so forth. You can easily program 100s of macros to it. you can also define axis-ranges to be associated with functions instead of axis, and callbrate everything from this software. Windows OPanel has nothing to do with it. In fact it is heavily recommended NOT to use it on CH templates - it could mess up callibration.

You could attach a maximum of 144 different functions to all the knobs. If you define a shift-key, and set up the keyboard commands within the game accordingly, you can increase the number of available functions even more, almost double them (never needed that, could not even imagine to need it - and somehow I also need to store all that somehwere inside my brain...) Each function could be a single command, or a macro. It is done in three levels per knob. I usually use one level for flight and air-fight-operation, one level for takeoff and landing, and one level for ground attcks. In Steel Beasts it is one level for regular tank and combat operation, and one level for all formation management.

I have tried the Cougar on someone else's system. The metal feel is solid and nice, yes. but that was all there is for me.

The CH HOTAS I also find more flexible to use for different things than flightsims. I use the Throttle's keys for racing sims and for FPS, too.

[Skybird]

review: http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/review/hotas.htm

[SUBMAN1]

Windows Joystick Panel? Little do you know! The hardware comes with it's own programming software, like Couhgar, but more easy to use, for my taste. Press the button you want to program (or click it in the tool panel) and eneter the key or strings. Afterwards you can define keypress durations, functionality on pressingand/or releasing the key, and so forth. You can easily program 100s of macros to it. you can also define axis-ranges to be associated with functions instead of axis, and callbrate everything from this software. Windows OPanel has nothing to do with it. In fact it is heavily recommended NOT to use it on CH templates - it could mess up callibration.

You could attach a maximum of 144 different functions to all the knobs. If you define a shift-key, and set up the keyboard commands within the game accordingly, you can increase the number of available functions even more, almost double them (never needed that, could not even imagine to need it - and somehow I also need to store all that somehwere inside my brain...) Each function could be a single command, or a macro. It is done in three levels per knob. I usually use one level for flight and air-fight-operation, one level for takeoff and landing, and one level for ground attcks. In Steel Beasts it is one level for regular tank and combat operation, and one level for all formation management.

I have tried the Cougar on someone else's system. The metal feel is solid and nice, yes. but that was all there is for me.

The CH HOTAS I also find more flexible to use for different things than flightsims. I use the Throttle's keys for racing sims and for FPS, too.

The felxibility of the Cougar is miles beyond simple macro key strings and I think you know that. Programming it with Foxy's is about a 2 second process too if you want it to be 2 seconds. But if you want it to be complex, you can do that too.

And another thing! Who uses a flightstick for racing games???!!!! Oh no! You need help! :p Don't you own a wheel and that? My wheel even has a 7 speed gear shifter (That can be modified for the correct # of gears for the sim you are player) + reverse and is Force Feedback.

Who knows, maybe I am the one who's nuts??

-S

[Skybird]

I have a wheel, but use the Throttle for the many keyboard commands some sims like Nascar 2003 come with (displaying several diagnosticla screens during race, for example). I do not use the throttle axis. In FPS, I use mouse and instead of the keyboard, the throttle again. - Subman, do you know CH manager software? According to your reference to windows panel and such, you do not. It does for CH HOTAS, what Foxy does for Cougar, referring to the first Foxy there was when it came out. You can use the HOTAS as a standard Windows joystick, yes. But for creating command profiles, you use the Control Manager. That one is very flexible and easy-to-us. As I said, I don't know what you can NOT do with it, and very quickly so. To implement a complete set of commands for all buttons of the stick on one level is an issue of less than a minute. What can you do with Foxy, that CH Control Manager can't? Maybe there is something, and i just don't miss it. - If you want to complain about CH, flexibility and ergonomy it is NOT. Refer to the springs instead, that are a bit too soft maybe, for some people's taste. I myself am used to it. - And now tell me what you can do with cougar and foxy what you can'T with CH. :) Obviously you have rotary switches. I am glad that I do not have them, I prefer to have adjustements being done in fixed intervals by buttons, so that is the only majpor difference that I see. CH has a ministick on throttle, two POVs (that can be used a non-POV as well), and more 4-way, 8-way and 1-way buttons than the cougar. It is also more expensive than the Cougar, unfortunately. I checked German market and saw it on offer for around 175 euros (up to 250), the fighterstick comes at around 130-180 euros, the throttle at around 120-140.

[SUBMAN1]

I have a wheel, but use the Throttle for the many keyboard commands some sims like Nascar 2003 come with (displaying several diagnosticla screens during race, for example). I do not use the throttle axis. In FPS, I use mouse and instead of the keyboard, the throttle again. - Subman, do you know CH manager software? According to your reference to windows panel and such, you do not. It does for CH HOTAS, what Foxy does for Cougar, referring to the first Foxy there was when it came out. You can use the HOTAS as a standard Windows joystick, yes. But for creating command profiles, you use the Control Manager. That one is very flexible and easy-to-us. As I said, I don't know what you can NOT do with it, and very quickly so. To implement a complete set of commands for all buttons of the stick on one level is an issue of less than a minute. What can you do with Foxy, that CH Control Manager can't? Maybe there is something, and i just don't miss it. - If you want to complain about CH, flexibility and ergonomy it is NOT. Refer to the springs instead, that are a bit too soft maybe, for some people's taste. I myself am used to it. - And now tell me what you can do with cougar and foxy what you can'T with CH. :) Obviously you have rotary switches. I am glad that I do not have them, I prefer to have adjustements being done in fixed intervals by buttons, so that is the only majpor difference that I see. CH has a ministick on throttle, two POVs (that can be used a non-POV as well), and more 4-way, 8-way and 1-way buttons than the cougar. It is also more expensive than the Cougar, unfortunately. I checked German market and saw it on offer for around 175 euros (up to 250), the fighterstick comes at around 130-180 euros, the throttle at around 120-140.

No - I do not use the Windows panel for programming. I use the Cougars SW only. I was just mentioning in passing the panel since its rather humorous to look at.

The CH flightstick last I checked was not able to time keystrokes to ms, nor does it allow for RAW (machine level) programming to control exactly how the system looks at the stick (ie - can't tell it is not a keyboard), so it doesn't suit my purpose.

An example is, I can set a macro for three buttons, hold the middle button down for 200 ms, release it for 300 ms, and then have it pressed again all the while holding the other buttons down on the keyboard - talking from a macro sense - but my input while playing would be to push one button to start that sequence.

One particulary useful function for Falcon is the ability to push a button and have the macro hit a key on the keyboard, and then release it for a specific ms (So the Falcon does not get screwed up with the keypresses) before hitting the next key in the macro. I use this on 2 functions in Falcon since it you hit the keypresses so close together, Falcon does not sometimes recognize that you hit another key.

THe CH FLightstick seems a bit overpriced in Germany there I see. And I am amazed that its cost has not dropped over the years since it is 1990's tech - it is not worth the $71 they are asking for it here. $50 seems about fair I think. Throttle should be priced about the same, but they are asking $102 for it.

The CH stick is a good stick. Just old tech and not as flexible. It is a lot cheaper route though - About $100 cheaper in the US.

Allright - not this brings me to my 2 biggest gripes about the CH stick - lack of buttons and hats (It needs way more!), and 2 - it is software based to do its macros - which eats CPU cycles. The Cougar has its own internal computer including RAM (and its faster than my first PC!) and uses no CPU cycles to manage its macro system.

In all reality though - the CH stick is a very good stick (And I'd buy it if the Cougar didn't exist), just my ability to program exactly what happens and the ton of hats, buttons, and even a built in mouse on the Cougar is way better. The mouse also can function as a joystick (And it is digitally proportional 2 axis), as well as the ant elevation and radar range knob is also another 2 axis. The Cougar however is way more complex, so if you want an easier to manage stick, I'd go with the CH. Just my 2 cents. To each his own.

And Skybird - you can fight me any time - And I'll always have an advantage with my Cougar! :p

-S

[Skybird]

I admit that I do not really understand what you are talking about concenring those time-things. The CH manager has been described to have implemented time controls of some kind, but I see no need to even dig into it, and thus still use an earlier version. I do not know how to make any use of it. The problem you describe with keys not recognized in Falcon I do not know by experience, but I assume you use AF, while I am using SP4.2. the internal RAM and CPU cycle stuff also is of no interest for me, since I cannot see the HOTAS hampering the sims I run in any way. So I cannot form an opinion on the technical side of things that you mention - I do not have that knowledge, I judge it exclusively from playing experience in everyday simming life. I use several push-or release-dependant macros, also use the ministick for mouseview, for example, and the two POVs for looking around at different height angles. In fact, in IL-2 I never grab for the real mouse anymore, there simply is no need to do so. I am also not missing more buttons on the hardware, since there are already more than enough empty slots to fill, more than I use in any sim. The devices are also unbelievably precise in their axis-movement. these are the points by which I judge the hardware for myself. The technology I do not care for as long as it does not negatvely feed back on system performance (which it doesn't over here). It's all about ergonomics for me. And that is where that HOTAS shines.

[SUBMAN1]

I admit that I do not really understand what you are talking about concenring those time-things. The CH manager has been described to have implemented time controls of some kind, but I see no need to even dig into it, and thus still use an earlier version. I do not know how to make any use of it. The problem you describe with keys not recognized in Falcon I do not know by experience, but I assume you use AF, while I am using SP4.2. the internal RAM and CPU cycle stuff also is of no interest for me, since I cannot see the HOTAS hampering the sims I run in any way. So I cannot form an opinion on the technical side of things that you mention - I do not have that knowledge, I judge it exclusively from playing experience in everyday simming life. I use several push-or release-dependant macros, also use the ministick for mouseview, for example, and the two POVs for looking around at different height angles. In fact, in IL-2 I never grab for the real mouse anymore, there simply is no need to do so. I am also not missing more buttons on the hardware, since there are already more than enough empty slots to fill, more than I use in any sim. The devices are also unbelievably precise in their axis-movement. these are the points by which I judge the hardware for myself. The technology I do not care for as long as it does not negatvely feed back on system performance (which it doesn't over here). It's all about ergonomics for me. And that is where that HOTAS shines.

Its worse in F4 SP4.2! You wouldn't run across this much though because I program the actual 'real' F-16 controls into my joystick. So if it does a function in the real jet - that exact same button does the same thing in my F4. An example is gun camera activation in the dual stage trigger - If you don't do it right, you will activate the cam, but the gun will never fire - which is a bad thing in a dogfigt - this is because the sim can't recognize the 2 different keystrokes so close together. F4AF fixed this to a point, but it is still there.

-S

[Skybird]

I repeat, I have no unrecognized keyboard strokes in F4SP4.2OCI. Also cannot remember that I ever had something like that in recent years. But I had keystroke commands that did not work at all in AF.

[SUBMAN1]

I repeat, I have no unrecognized keyboard strokes in F4SP4.2OCI. Also cannot remember that I ever had something like that in recent years. But I had keystroke commands that did not work at all in AF.

You wouldn't normally encounter it with a CH Flightstick (This is one of those things that happens because you have all these buttons at your disposal on a Cougar and you are trying to do multiple things at once), which is why.

My example uses the dual stage trigger - where the first click starts the gun cam, and the second click starts the M61. The problem comes when you hit the first click, F4 recognizes the button press, but the second is followed so close behind, F4 doesn't see it (which results in you holding the trigger down and the gun not doing anything - which can mean the diff between life and death!). This is because F4 (especially SP4.2) only can see one keyboard thing at a time within a given ms due to the way it is programmed. So you can program in delays into keyboard strokes with the cougar and time when one thing happens to the next, and you can also program in the ability to release a key and verify it is released before the next macro key starts. This fixes Falcons shortcominngs.

F4AF makes better use of DX and eliminates a lot of this garbage - especially the ability to use more joystick buttons (all 32 of them) as DX buttons so you can program around it with more effieciency.

-S

[Skybird]

Me thinks you are programming strange things :lol: Getting problems that way you wouldn't have if you just do it more straight. :-j

[SUBMAN1]

Me thinks you are programming strange things :lol: Getting problems that way you wouldn't have if you just do it more straight. :-j
It is just part of my quest to have the most authentic controls possible. In the real F-16, it has a dual stage trigger for example - first click turns the gun cam on, and in mine, it turns the ACMI recording on, and the second click actually fires the gun in the real F-16, and does the same in mine.

Just call me a stickler for realism! :cool:

-S

PS. Put it this way, if you can fly and fight in my setup, you can fly and fight in the real thing!

[VipertheSniper]

Me thinks you are programming strange things :lol: Getting problems that way you wouldn't have if you just do it more straight. :-j
It is just part of my quest to have the most authentic controls possible. In the real F-16, it has a dual stage trigger for example - first click turns the gun cam on, and in mine, it turns the ACMI recording on, and the second click actually fires the gun in the real F-16, and does the same in mine.

Just call me a stickler for realism! :cool:

-S

PS. Put it this way, if you can fly and fight in my setup, you can fly and fight in the real thing!

If you can take the g's that would be...

[SUBMAN1]

Me thinks you are programming strange things :lol: Getting problems that way you wouldn't have if you just do it more straight. :-j
It is just part of my quest to have the most authentic controls possible. In the real F-16, it has a dual stage trigger for example - first click turns the gun cam on, and in mine, it turns the ACMI recording on, and the second click actually fires the gun in the real F-16, and does the same in mine.

Just call me a stickler for realism! :cool:

-S

PS. Put it this way, if you can fly and fight in my setup, you can fly and fight in the real thing!
If you can take the g's that would be...
I've been only subject to about 5 or 6, but I liked it. Used to be a Bellenca Super Viking in the family (With decked out cockpit I might say - 25 watt radio's (norm is 7 watt) and other unheard of stuff and all digital). and it was rated at +6, -3. Never did care for too many negatives, and there was no protection for the oil system on the negative, so it wasn't somethign you did for very long.

Only thing left now is a Piper Aztec twin. Its fully decked out too with a STOL kit and long range tanks (1200 nm range), but its just a bus in my opinion - point A to point B. No fun, just good for hitching a ride to Cali when it was convenient. I miss that Super Viking.

The trick to pulling G's is shorter people are better at it. I'm about 5' 9", so I'm in the OK group. Women can probably pull more than most guys as well (If they are strong enough), because they are typically shorter than most guys. It all has to do with how far away your brain is from your heart - and tall guys have a slight issue with this as you might guess.

-S

[Skybird]

My philosophy is different. I design every template so that it fits my personal needs best, no matter how it is in the realm thing. For example, in steel Beasts most people have movement and formation controls on the thorttle (left hand) and all spotting and firing controls on the stick (right hand). It seems to be a natural thing. I do it exactly the other way around, so that I can do all combat-important things with the left hand, having the right hand free to use the mouse for panning around - for I do not need the stick in combat. My trigger to fire the cannon is the left small finger. :lol:

[SUBMAN1]

My philosophy is different. I design every template so that it fits my personal needs best, no matter how it is in the realm thing. For example, in steel Beasts most people have movement and formation controls on the thorttle (left hand) and all spotting and firing controls on the stick (right hand). It seems to be a ntrual thing. I do it exactly the other way around, so that I can do all combat-important things with the left hand, having the right hand free to use the mouse for panning around - for I do not need the stick in combat.
Since it was not engineers that designed the F-16 stick - instead they asked the pilots and this is what they came up with, and after flying like this, I can understand why. I can do pretty much anything I need to do to kill whatever it is I need to kill and go home without ever touching the keyboard. It is the near perfect system.

I still have to do radio calls from the keyboard however - and raise/lower the gear, but thats pretty much where it stops.

-S

[Skybird]

You should try to use the trigger with your left small finger. It is very humiliating for your opponent if he get killed "en passant", so to speak. It is also a real burst for your ego! :lol:I arrange different flight phases into different level of the command templates. In Falcon I start with template level two (take-off and landing), cruise and airfight with level one (air-combat), and all ground attack-relevant command are in plevel three. I too almost never use the keyboard, only for comms and some extremely rarely used radar modes.For most sims I do not need more than two levels, however.

[SUBMAN1]

You should try to use the trigger with your left small finger. It is very humiliating for your opponent if he get killed "en passant", so to speak. It is also a real burst for your ego! :lol:I arrange different flight phases into different level of the command templates. In Falcon I start with template level two (take-off and landing), cruise and airfight with level one (air-combat), and all ground attack-relevant command are in plevel three. I too almost never use the keyboard, only for comms and some extremely rarely used radar modes.For most sims I do not need more than two levels, however.

Same. If I wanted to get crazy about it, I'd program all the comms in to, but I'd rather play the sim than spend the time to do that!

-S

[Winston]

Thanks for all the feed back guys, they both look like really good sticks. I’m going to have to think a lot about which one I should get. I’d forgotten about rudder peddles as well the x52 being a twist stick. Any idea’s there? Also looking at one of them tracker AI things. It gets old really quick when you lose track of your target though the series of roles when chasing down your victim.

[Skybird]

I personally prefer the Simped Vario Pro USB to any other rudders out there. You can equip them with toie brakes and F-16-style pedals per additional kit. Their advantages are there rocksolid manufacturing quality tops everything in this price category, the space between both feet is wider than with other pedals, making for a better ergonomical and more relaxed positioning of your legs, and the sensors are hal-sensors, combining zero wear and ultrahigh precision. However, if you happen to buy the CH Hotas you might want to consider buying the CH rudders instead. You can bind them together with any other CH gear into one "virtual device" which is a must for old sims that can recognize only one piece of input hardware. If you do not nerad that, go with the Hofmann's Simped Vario Pro. They are simply superior in their price segment.

[SUBMAN1]

Thanks for all the feed back guys, they both look like really good sticks. I’m going to have to think a lot about which one I should get. I’d forgotten about rudder peddles as well the x52 being a twist stick. Any idea’s there? Also looking at one of them tracker AI things. It gets old really quick when you lose track of your target though the series of roles when chasing down your victim.

Rudder pedals seem to be non-existant these days in a good form. With my HOTAS Cougar I use what is called the Thrustmaster RCS which also is a metal set of rudders, but they are like $200 if you can find (Or more). They do not make them anymore so I don't know what to tell you.

-S

[Skybird]

But I know. Take the Simpeds, or the CH pedals.

:lol:

[Skybird]

http://shop3.webmailer.de/cgi-bin/ePages.filereader?3cda8f1a06f566742719ac172c2506a1 +DE/catalogs/92118

[SUBMAN1]

http://shop3.webmailer.de/cgi-bin/ePages.filereader?3cda8f1a06f566742719ac172c2506a1 +DE/catalogs/92118

Those things look bad ass! They make a COugar version. Now what are you doing to me Skybird? Making me spend more money again!

-S

[Skybird]

My revenge. :lol: Believe me, they are as solid and well-manufactured as they look. But contact them by email before ordering. since early 2005 the manufacturer is said to having shifted around somewhat, and difficult delivery conditions (for me it went smooth and easy, that is 5 years ago or so). Maybe some american shops have stockpiled their items. civilian flightsim sides also had a lot of references to these.

[Skybird]

I came to check the old links, and many are dead, however, this one still is active and gives techncial details. the manufacturer still is active, that I know, but for some reason he has choosen to make himself a little bit difficult to reach.

http://home.arcor.de/p.madel/Homepage/homeeng.htm