I Hate Single Ship Contacts!!!!

[Magua]

During the U-Boat War Commanders received reports on CONVOYS, not single little ships roaming the Ocean. The single ships they sunk, were ships they just happened to run across with no advance warning. I'm basing this on years of reading and research on the subject.

So how do you get rid of the single ship contacts, yet keep the convoy contacts?I'm currently running RUB 1.45.

The current assisted plotting mod 1.4b does not do away with the single ship contacts. I know an older version did, but I can not find it anywhere.

Thanks!

[Sir Big Jugs]

Stop whining so much! Do you really think that the "real" U-boat commanders saw a convoy evrytime they raised their periscope??? PATIENCE!!!:nope:

If you want convoys, try looking at the hunting grounds pages of the Wikipedia community manual.

Available here:

http://www.communitymanuals.com/shiii/index.php?title=Hunting_Grounds


Also, in your SH3 box there came a map displaying all the main convoy lanes in SHIII. Look there!

[Ducimus]

During the U-Boat War Commanders received reports on CONVOYS, not single little ships roaming the Ocean. The single ships they sunk, were ships they just happened to run across with no advance warning. I'm basing this on years of reading and research on the subject.

So how do you get rid of the single ship contacts, yet keep the convoy contacts?I'm currently running RUB 1.45.

The current assisted plotting mod 1.4b does not do away with the single ship contacts. I know an older version did, but I can not find it anywhere.

Thanks!

How handy are you with the mission editor and loading the campaign RND layer in wordpad?

[Magua]

Stop whining so much! Do you really think that the "real" U-boat commanders saw a convoy evrytime they raised their periscope??? PATIENCE!!!:nope:

If you want convoys, try looking at the hunting grounds pages of the Wikipedia community manual.

Available here:

http://www.communitymanuals.com/shiii/index.php?title=Hunting_Grounds


Also, in your SH3 box there came a map displaying all the main convoy lanes in SHIII. Look there!

What are you talking about??? I'm not looking for a bunch of convoys.

I want the single ship contact icon on the map to go away forever.

[Sir Big Jugs]

Ahh LOL!:lol:

As English ain't my mother tongue so to say I understood your question completely wrong!:88)

I'm sorry for my angry manner, welcome to the Subsim.com forums and as a note, I'm not usually this "unwelcoming" but you see my sub, U-53 had just been sunk and I was a bit angry and upset. Hope you understand.:know:

[Gammel]

Hello Magua!

Maybe this is interesting for you, if you don´t wanna like messing up with the campaign file for yourself...

Here is the link to CB's modified campaign file:
http://www.ebort2.co.uk/files/wolfrnd1.zip



You´ll need Sergbutos AI subs for getting CB's mod to work. Download it (and other great stuff) here:
http://web.telia.com/~u18230645/ (http://web.telia.com/%7Eu18230645/)


Hope Sergbuto and CB have nothing against hotlinking their sides in the main forum.:shifty:

[Fab]

Or just download the NYGM Tonnage Mod 2.0 and install it. It removes God's Eye Mode and removes all single contacts. Plus it's really fantastic what with the realistic sinking of ships and all. The GW mod uses the NYGM damage model but I'm not sure if it eliminates God's Eye Mode and/or single contacts or not.

[Seminole]

I want the single ship contact icon on the map to go away forever.

The latest mega mods pretty much do that quite well....but careful what you wish for as they say......:ping:

Or just turn off the God's eye view....you'll get mostly what you are asking for....:yep:

[mike_espo]

Or just download the NYGM Tonnage Mod 2.0 and install it. It removes God's Eye Mode and removes all single contacts. Plus it's really fantastic what with the realistic sinking of ships and all. The GW mod uses the NYGM damage model but I'm not sure if it eliminates God's Eye Mode and/or single contacts or not.

"Gods eye"???? What does this mean?:hmm: I agree. I was looking for a way to eliminate the single ship contacts. Not at all realistic. :nope: In my IXB U-64, Spring 40, I have used up almost half my torpedoes and not anywhere near my patrol hex yet-which is CG18.

I too, use RuB 1.45

[pythos]

I have seen this about single ship contacts before, and the same question comes to my mind.

What is the big deal?

Ships, either submarines, or surface ships, get contacts for whatever enemy vessle is spoted. If some kinda of intel said that at a ship was leaving port, there would such a contact message sent out to the subs of surface vessles.

Yes, convoys were more important, but remember, it was one lone ship that carried the attomic bomb to tinian island. Single contacts could potentially be more important than an entire convoy, if you really think about it.

You have to remember there were other subs out there, and they may also send out a contact message concerning the ship and its nationality. Ex. Have spotted 6000 ton steamer, in grid AK22, DO NOT ATTACK CONTACT, vessle is flying sweedish flag." These kinds of contacts were sent all the time, it is just not well simulated in SHIII.

Personally I like single ship contacts, cause they are easy pickings, unlike convoys which have destroyers and other nasty escorts around them.

Don't worry, later in the war, single ship contacts are a rare and welcome thing. Convoys get bigger, and much better defended.

Also, rmember this is a simulator, that if played completely realistically would take whole weeks of your life, which frankly would be quite sad. Without those single contacts, you would spend most of your patrol waiting for the rare convoy report.

[mike_espo]

I must disagree. In SHIII, the intel is way too accurate and right on the money in terms of course and speed. In reality, contact reports came in sometimes 8 or 12 hours late. This is not simmulated in SHIII.

[Hartmann]

i like single ships contacts because is a distraction while you are looking for convoys, also you have to do a decission about intercept or not the repport.
then a intercept plotting in the map and the chase:arrgh!: .

FW condors and inteligence agents made report contacts for me.

[Sawdust]

"Gods eye"???? What does this mean?:hmm:
"God's Eye" mode is another name for Automatic Map Updates in SHIII. You can turn this on or off in the realism settings.

[Puster Bill]

i like single ships contacts because is a distraction while you are looking for convoys, also you have to do a decission about intercept or not the repport.
then a intercept plotting in the map and the chase:arrgh!: .

FW condors and inteligence agents made report contacts for me.
More likely it would have been Wilhelm Tranow's people at the Beobachtungs-Dienst ("Observation Service", commonly called B-Dienst for short). That was the service that intercepted, decoded, and distributed solutions of such things as the British Naval Cypher (which, by the way, was a code, not a cipher). They also broke the 'BAMS' code, the code the British used to coordinate shipping movements globally. At least, up until the British were able to change it to a more secure code after they figured out the Germans were reading their mail by breaking the Naval Enigma.

An example, given in David Kahn's book "Nazi Spies" says that on October 30th, 1942 B-Dienst decrypted a British message stating that convoy SC107 would steer a course of 45 degrees from it's then current location off of the tip of Newfoundland. Information like that would have even been transmitted for some of the individual ships sailing, since you have to coordinate your shipping to have it arrive at the proper port at the proper time in order to minimize bottlenecks.

The B-Dienst was reading that code well into 1943. So I just assume when I get a contact report on a map it came from B-Dienst. Of course, I might be biased towards assuming it was a SIGINT report, I was a dittybopper (Morse Interceptor) years ago. Also, since I haven't survived past November of 1942 yet, it hasn't been an issue for me:damn:

[Puster Bill]

I should also have mentioned that you don't need to actually break the other guy's codes to get this sort of information. You can get it from basic traffic analysis and HF/DF. Here is how it would work.

Admiral Goodbloke (He really is a good bloke!) on the SS Feathersword* sends a message in code at 19:00Z. Several German DF stations get bearings on it, and the position is gridsquare XYZ. Then, 8 hours later, he sends another message. He is then DFed in gridsquare XMQ. We know it is the same ship because we have studied the British callsign system. Gridsquare XMQ happens to be approximately 54 nautical miles southwest of XYZ. We now know the approximate course (Southwest), and the approximate speed ( 54 NM / 8 hours = 6.75 knots), along with his approximate current location.

You don't even have to know the actual callsign rota, as every morse operator has a distinctive way of sending, known as a 'fist'. A good dittybopper can recognize this and know that a particular operator didn't teleport from one ship to another in the space of a few hours. The 'fingerprinting' of individual transmitters was also known in WWII, and is another way to tell who is who, although I am not sure if the Germans did that or not.

The information that you would get from this kind of intelligence almost exactly tracks what you see in SHIII, as DFing is rarely precise enough to give you exact locations, so that "Slow, Medium, Fast" is appropriate speed-wise, as are general compass directions instead of precise numeric headings.

*Give me a break, I have a toddler at home.

[Magua]

Ahh LOL!:lol:

As English ain't my mother tongue so to say I understood your question completely wrong!:88)

I'm sorry for my angry manner, welcome to the Subsim.com forums and as a note, I'm not usually this "unwelcoming" but you see my sub, U-53 had just been sunk and I was a bit angry and upset. Hope you understand.:know:


LOL...No problem... I'm sure I would be no good at Finish!:lol:

[mheil]

". . . Feathersword??"- that's from the Wiggles! Got a young one myself :D

[Magua]

On the single ship contacts debate, I'm reading lots of things like: "well, it could happen, might happen, " etc....

But if you read any Biography of a U-Boat Commander or Account of a U-Boat's Experience you will find the same conclusion: The Single Ships they found and sunk, were ones they just happened across by surprise. No advance warning. BDU sent out Contact Reports about Convoys, not single ships. When a single ship was found it was attacked and sunk. That's it.

I'm not talking about how things work today, might have worked then, or worked in other theatres of the war. Pick up a U-Boat Commander's Auto-Biography and READ!!!!!

I love having single ships in the game, and love it even more when I get a surprising "Ship Sighted" Call out of the blue!

[Eichenlaub]

I think I read in "The Battle of the Atlantic" by David Williams (accompanying the BBC-documentary on the U-boat war) that in 1942, Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 was directed to a stationary single ship somewhere while on Drumbeat patrol. When he found the ship, two Allied DD's were circling it, ready to engage the sub as soon as he showed himself. Hardegen got this report from BdU, so on occasion, single ship targets were relayed to the commanders at sea.
By the way, Hardegen suspected the trap and slid away. The Allies had ascertained U-123's position due to ULTRA.

I do feel though that single ship contacts are too prevalent in SHIII. If you go on a mission, you can intercept a dozen or so in a matter of 2-3 weeks, even as late as 1944. That's not right. My next career will be without the gods' eye mode - we'll see what happens then.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Seaveins]

Hello all,
I am new to all this, wanted to make a first posting, and love to see any ships at all. I have been patrolling Africa's west coast recently in late '42. I am about ready to torpedo the next rowboat I find! Mission after mission of searching the lanes to no avail. Just to make sure the game was working I sailed straight to Gibraltar, was pegged by radar in a storm, and rammed by a destroyer. All hands lost but at least something happened. Any searching tips out there? :damn:

[Mooncatt]

try going to scapa flow or loch ewe (north scotland) sneak into the docks, plenty merchants DD`S for the sinking thereof :)

[Puster Bill]

On the single ship contacts debate, I'm reading lots of things like: "well, it could happen, might happen, " etc....

But if you read any Biography of a U-Boat Commander or Account of a U-Boat's Experience you will find the same conclusion: The Single Ships they found and sunk, were ones they just happened across by surprise. No advance warning. BDU sent out Contact Reports about Convoys, not single ships. When a single ship was found it was attacked and sunk. That's it.

I'm not talking about how things work today, might have worked then, or worked in other theatres of the war. Pick up a U-Boat Commander's Auto-Biography and READ!!!!!

I love having single ships in the game, and love it even more when I get a surprising "Ship Sighted" Call out of the blue!

Puster Bill understands that Magua is a dog to his single ship contacts. When they appear on his map, he puts down his scope to feed their laziness...:D

Seriously, though, while it would have been no where near as common as it is in SHIII, I believe B-Dienst did forward intel about single ship movements to BdU. Whether or not BdU decided to transmit them to the U-boats is another story. The only real answer to that would be to search the signal intercepts in the archives of GCHQ, a daunting task for those of us who don't live in the UK. I only know of a few u-boat enigma decrypts that have made it to the web, and most of those dealt with administrivia.

Having said that, the UBootwaffe was a very 'chatty' organization. I find it hard to believe that BdU would send out birthday messages to petty officers on patrol, yet wouldn't forward contact reports they received from B-Dienst.

I have read "U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer, "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner, "U-977" by Heinz Schaeffer, and a couple of others that escape me at the moment. I've also read extensively on the history of German SIGINT operations in both WWI and most especially WWII, so I know whereof I speak on that subject (having been in that business as a younger man also helps).

By the way, I love your nick. I have used Magua extensively on Fark. My signature here used to be "When the corvette captain is dead, Magua will eat his heart... etc."

[Magua]

On the single ship contacts debate, I'm reading lots of things like: "well, it could happen, might happen, " etc....

But if you read any Biography of a U-Boat Commander or Account of a U-Boat's Experience you will find the same conclusion: The Single Ships they found and sunk, were ones they just happened across by surprise. No advance warning. BDU sent out Contact Reports about Convoys, not single ships. When a single ship was found it was attacked and sunk. That's it.

I'm not talking about how things work today, might have worked then, or worked in other theatres of the war. Pick up a U-Boat Commander's Auto-Biography and READ!!!!!

I love having single ships in the game, and love it even more when I get a surprising "Ship Sighted" Call out of the blue!


Bill understands that Magua is a dog to his single ship contacts. When they appear on his map, he puts down his scope to feed their laziness...:D

Seriously, though, while it would have been no where near as common as it is in SHIII, I believe B-Dienst did forward intel about single ship movements to BdU. Whether or not BdU decided to transmit them to the U-boats is another story. The only real answer to that would be to search the signal intercepts in the archives of GCHQ, a daunting task for those of us who don't live in the UK. I only know of a few u-boat enigma decrypts that have made it to the web, and most of those dealt with administrivia.

Having said that, the UBootwaffe was a very 'chatty' organization. I find it hard to believe that BdU would send out birthday messages to petty officers on patrol, yet wouldn't forward contact reports they received from B-Dienst.

I have read "U-Boat Commander" by Peter Cremer, "Iron Coffins" by Herbert Werner, "U-977" by Heinz Schaeffer, and a couple of others that escape me at the moment. I've also read extensively on the history of German SIGINT operations in both WWI and most especially WWII, so I know whereof I speak on that subject (having been in that business as a younger man also helps).

By the way, I love your nick. I have used Magua extensively on Fark. My signature here used to be "When the corvette captain is dead, Magua will eat his heart... etc."

Another Good Book is "Operation Drumbeat", which is the story of Kplt Hardegan off the US Coast in 1942. He sank 10+ Single Ships. (With no help from BDU) :lol:

I just downloaded the NYGM MOD. So far so Good. I stumbled upon two single merchants while traveling around Britain and sent them to Davy Jones' Locker.
When the lookout called "Ship Sighted", it just about knocked me out of my chair!
Kind of the same feeling the commanders in the books you listed describe when they happened upon ships.

I like your Magua Lines! Clever!:rotfl:

[Puster Bill]

Another Good Book is "Operation Drumbeat", which is the story of Kplt Hardegan off the US Coast in 1942. He sank 10+ Single Ships. (With no help from BDU) :lol:

I just downloaded the NYGM MOD. So far so Good. I stumbled upon two single merchants while traveling around Britain and sent them to Davy Jones' Locker.
When the lookout called "Ship Sighted", it just about knocked me out of my chair!
Kind of the same feeling the commanders in the books you listed describe when they happened upon ships.

I like your Magua Lines! Clever!:rotfl:

I have "Operation Drumbeat" by Micheal Gannon. Yeah, no updates from BdU, but DF would have been practically useless out there anyway because of technical reasons. In addition, there wouldn't have been as much need to coordinate traffic off the East Coast of the US as there would have been in Britain.

By the way, if you want an excellent overview of both battles of the Atlantic (WWI and WWII), I recommend V.E. Tarrant's "The U-Boat Offensive, 1914-1945". If you want a flavor of WWI U-Boat operations, Lowell Thomas wrote a book in the 1920's after interviewing several WWI U-Boat commanders. I think it was called "Raiders of the Deep".

"Magua raised his scope to cover it in oil. It is still bright. Only when the tanker is sinking will Magua lower it"

[Puster Bill]

If you are interested in the signals intelligence aspect of the Battle of the Atlantic, "The Codebreakers", "Seizing the Enigma: The Race to Break the German U-Boat Codes 1939-1943", and "Nazi Spies", all by David Kahn, are worth a read. The last two are especially informative.

I would expect that when SHIV comes out your objection would be less, as US sub commanders got much better intelligence than u-boat commanders.

[Magua]

In my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....none. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been".

Using single ships contacts sailing around the map turns the sim into an Arcade Game. If you want realism and experience close to what a real U-Boat Commander had to do don't use them.

Its is still possible in the game to find single ships. They are in the shipping lanes. DIving on occassion to do a sound check can pick them up also. Otto Kretschmer's standard procedure was to dive for two hours every morning before dawn to do sound checks. That method has worked for me to find single ships several times.

Magua has spoken. :lol:

[Phylacista]

After all this discussing is there simply a way to get rid of the single ship contact while still using gods eye mode?

So it will be to everyones liking...

[Pablo]

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been". You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):
As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel. I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

[Englebert Endrass]

Afaik the greatest tonnage sunk by Uboats in WWII came from attacks on independantly routed ships (IRS). Due to the intractability of the Admiralty and them not wanting to learn lessons from WWI this meant that the convoy system was not implemented as fully in early times as it was later.

It was even worse situation in WWI apparently.

Of course turning to the original question how to modify the game, sorry I am unable to help on that issue other than I would turn off the God's eye mode. Up to each how they want to play and modify the game, but for me IRS was part of the scenario and I search for them by use of the sound gear and regular dive/stop/listen routines. Usually pick up a contact before the map is updated with the contact. Of course what you then get is that you immediately know Allied/Axis/Neutral when in reality you would have to track down and identify. Guess its a realism factor.

Hence when I get to the Dead is Dead stage in this, my first career, I'll go back and wind up the realism factor which is around 50% ish, forget the exact figure.

My 2p's worth anyway fwiw.

Englebert

[Magua]

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been". You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):
As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel. I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

Yep, happened one time in six years of the war...:up: The only documented case. The broken rudder steamer was sitting there sending out lots of distress calls.

Now I wonder how many times they found single merchants with no help from BDU......hmmmm Now that would be more common. I guess then the question is should single ship contacts be used in the game, when there is only one case of it happening historically?

But the book you mentioned is an excellent source for seeing how many ships U-Boats actually sunk. If you look in the appendix (page 709 Volume 1) you will find tables listing how many ships each U-Boat sunk on their patrols. It is broken down by each U-Boat, month by month. You will see that the numbers of ships sunk by each U-Boat are low. The average number of ships sunk per U-Boat per patrol up until May 1940 was about 3. Now if U-Boat Captains were receiving all of these wonderful single ship contact reports, wouldn't that number be much higher? Even with bad Torps? Many Captains (described in the same book) even described going on entire patrols without any contacts at all!

Now if you want to use single ship contacts in the game then go ahead and do it. But just remember it only for Game Purposes and very difficulty to justify it being Historically Accurate. And really you don't need them anyway to find single ships.

[Redwine]

I like to have single contacts reports.

I really have not problem to have single contacs in add to convoy and task forces contacts.

Any way i can decide to go or not for that single contact, wich can be an easy and juicy target, some times i take hands on them with my deck gun.

:up:

[Pablo]

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been". You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):
As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel. I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo
Yep, happened one time in six years of the war...:up: The only documented case. The broken rudder steamer was sitting there sending out lots of distress calls.

Now I wonder how many times they found single merchants with no help from BDU......hmmmm Now that would be a big number! I guess then the question is should single ship contacts be used in the game, when there is only one case of it happening historically? Hi Magua!

The point is that your conclusion (based on your historical research) that a U-boat never received the game-equivalent of a single ship report has now been shown to have been incorrect, since a verified case of a single ship contact has been found. I think this completely refutes the argument that single ship contacts should be eliminated from the game because there is no record of one actually happenening in real life.

BTW, the quote is "picked up the distress call" and not "picked up lots of distress calls."

We therefore know that it happened once, and that the bureaucratic apparatus was in place at BdU and B-dienst to allow it to happen again should a signal be detected, but I don't think we can really know how many more times this happened during the war, for a number of reasons: (1) the loss of B-dienst intercepts and BdU RF transmissions during the German collapse at the end of the war; (2) incomplete narratives from surviving U-boat commanders and logbooks (e.g., how did the U-boat "find" or "stumble upon" the merchant? Visual sighting? RF direction finding?); (3) U-boats that did not return and took their log books with them to the bottom of the sea. If you have found a deliberate BdU policy in this regard please let us know.

I personally ignore single ship contacts (as Hardegen probably should have done) rather than burn fuel chasing all over the ocean after them.

Pablo

[Subnuts]

Remember how many people were clamoring for the opportunity to shoot at survivors in the water? Well, that only happened once during the war, and people are still complaining that they can't!

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

[Magua]

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been". You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):
As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel. I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo
Yep, happened one time in six years of the war...:up: The only documented case. The broken rudder steamer was sitting there sending out lots of distress calls.

Now I wonder how many times they found single merchants with no help from BDU......hmmmm Now that would be a big number! I guess then the question is should single ship contacts be used in the game, when there is only one case of it happening historically? Hi Magua!

The point is that your conclusion (based on your historical research) that a U-boat never received the game-equivalent of a single ship report has now been shown to have been incorrect, since a verified case of a single ship contact has been found. I think this completely refutes the argument that single ship contacts should be eliminated from the game because there is no record of one actually happenening in real life.

BTW, the quote is "picked up the distress call" and not "picked up lots of distress calls."

We therefore know that it happened once, and that the bureaucratic apparatus was in place at BdU and B-dienst to allow it to happen again should a signal be detected, but I don't think we can really know how many more times this happened during the war, for a number of reasons: (1) the loss of B-dienst intercepts and BdU RF transmissions during the German collapse at the end of the war; (2) incomplete narratives from surviving U-boat commanders and logbooks (e.g., how did the U-boat "find" or "stumble upon" the merchant? Visual sighting? RF direction finding?); (3) U-boats that did not return and took their log books with them to the bottom of the sea. If you have found a deliberate BdU policy in this regard please let us know.

I personally ignore single ship contacts (as Hardegen probably should have done) rather than burn fuel chasing all over the ocean after them.

Pablo

Yes, we have one single case of it happening. One Time.

And how many reports/descriptions to the contrary......Endless Numbers.
Do you base the high prevelance of single ship contacts in the game and some mods on this one case?

There are an infinite number of descriptions describing the single ships being spotted with no warning at all. It's hard to go by "what might have been".

It just depends on how Historical You choose to play. Your option. Since Prien Sneaked into Scapa Flow, should I sail into every Harbor in England Looking for Battleships? The Type XXI SUB, cool, lets go on patrol with that! I know there is a raging Hurricane Outside, but lets load those External Torpedoes Anyway!

[Khayman]

I personally ignore single ship contacts (as Hardegen probably should have done) rather than burn fuel chasing all over the ocean after them.

Pablo

I'm sure, though I don't have the facts to hand, that the majority of U-Boat kills were single ships sailing alone. There's a mystique about wolfpacks and convoys, but convoys were there for a reason - they worked. It's part of the reason why the Type IX was the most successful boat and not the Type VII. The BdU would hit the roof when he read your patrol report. Aggression and make the most of the targets you have!

[Subnuts]

Yes, we have one single case of it happening. One Time.

And how many reports/descriptions to the contrary......Endless Numbers.
Do you base the high prevelance of single ship contacts in the game and some mods on this one case?


If you hate single ship contacts so much, why don't you just sink them? :rotfl:

[Magua]

Remember how many people were clamoring for the opportunity to shoot at survivors in the water? Well, that only happened once during the war, and people are still complaining that they can't!

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!


yes, I remember those debates! Good Points Subnuts! :up:

[Sailor Steve]

I started using the 20/20 mod the day it was released. It reduces single ships to 20% of the original, and then reduces the contact reports to 20% of their original. The result: very few contacts, and those only for ships within (I think) 300 kilometers of your position.

It was included in RUB, but I think the newer supermods have changed it.

[bigboywooly]

Oh look - Single shipping reports from uboats

F.d.U./B.d.U.'S War Log
1 - 15 November 1942
PG30313A


http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30313A.htm

U 563 reports ship traveling alone in BE 2647 on course 00. Pursuit was broken off because of excessive use of lubricating oil. 4)U 440 operated against single ship on courses in CG 7535 at 1418 hours. No attack because of high speed.

5)U 606 missed shot on single ship in AK 6839, course 2200, speed 16 knots

5)U 117 sighted two-stack steamers in AK 8926, course 400, speed 14 knots

3)U 218 reported fast ship sailing alone in AK 9549, which disappeared after being followed for a while.

2)U 522 sighted a two-funneled passenger steamer in AK 6652 on course 1800. Pursuit was discontinued because speed of ship was too great. The same ship was possibly sighted by U 263 in AL 4177 on course 2500.

3)U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851

c)U-boat sightings: FB 2711, FK 1162, CA 3794.
Sightings by aircraft: in BF 4832.
SOS message from Norwegian tanker "South Africa" (9,234 tons) in DQ 3750.
SSS message from unknown steamer in KZ 4612.

2)U 183 situation: Single ship and convoy movements in BB 8175

U 106 situation: Only 1 steamer sighted in BB. Heavy sea patrols both by single ships and groups, medium air patrols. Boat operating further in BB and CB 20

U 68 also given permission for freedom of action on her return cruise because of Italian U-boat's report of ship movements in the area.

4)U 438 lost contact on a steamer in BD 3853, two stacks, course northward, speed 16 knots

2)Situation and sighting reports: U 171 in KY 6968, ship "Cerion", sailing empty was engaged by artillery over a period of 2 days and nights in heavy swells, course 2400. Artillery action broken off due to failure of U-boat gun. 15 November ship "California" pursued in vain. Course 2700, speed 16 knots.

U 504 FU 8788 supply ship, course S.E. speed 16 knots.

U 160 15 November an empty freighter in EO 1568, course 3100.

U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851.

[Eichenlaub]

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

Subnuts: which sub was that? I'm curious as I've never heard this before.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[JScones]

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

Subnuts: which sub was that? I'm curious as I've never heard this before.
Allegedly U-1206 (not U-120 as usually suggested).

Some related links...
http://www.mathison.freeserve.co.uk/id25.htm
http://www.armed-combat.com/item_uk.htm?asin=1841763128&keyword=Osprey%C3%83%E2%80%9A%C3%82%C2%
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/domestics.html

[Magua]

Oh look - Single shipping reports from uboats

F.d.U./B.d.U.'S War Log
1 - 15 November 1942
PG30313A


http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30313A.htm

U 563 reports ship traveling alone in BE 2647 on course 00. Pursuit was broken off because of excessive use of lubricating oil. 4)U 440 operated against single ship on courses in CG 7535 at 1418 hours. No attack because of high speed.

5)U 606 missed shot on single ship in AK 6839, course 2200, speed 16 knots

5)U 117 sighted two-stack steamers in AK 8926, course 400, speed 14 knots

3)U 218 reported fast ship sailing alone in AK 9549, which disappeared after being followed for a while.

2)U 522 sighted a two-funneled passenger steamer in AK 6652 on course 1800. Pursuit was discontinued because speed of ship was too great. The same ship was possibly sighted by U 263 in AL 4177 on course 2500.

3)U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851

c)U-boat sightings: FB 2711, FK 1162, CA 3794.
Sightings by aircraft: in BF 4832.
SOS message from Norwegian tanker "South Africa" (9,234 tons) in DQ 3750.
SSS message from unknown steamer in KZ 4612.

2)U 183 situation: Single ship and convoy movements in BB 8175

U 106 situation: Only 1 steamer sighted in BB. Heavy sea patrols both by single ships and groups, medium air patrols. Boat operating further in BB and CB 20

U 68 also given permission for freedom of action on her return cruise because of Italian U-boat's report of ship movements in the area.

4)U 438 lost contact on a steamer in BD 3853, two stacks, course northward, speed 16 knots

2)Situation and sighting reports: U 171 in KY 6968, ship "Cerion", sailing empty was engaged by artillery over a period of 2 days and nights in heavy swells, course 2400. Artillery action broken off due to failure of U-boat gun. 15 November ship "California" pursued in vain. Course 2700, speed 16 knots.

U 504 FU 8788 supply ship, course S.E. speed 16 knots.

U 160 15 November an empty freighter in EO 1568, course 3100.

U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851.


Nice reports .The Issue was not that ships sailed alone, it was over how they were found in the first place. Your findings state "sighted" (with the eyeballs) a ship. There is nothing there that says BDU directed them to the single ship, nor that those sighted ships were subsequently sunk by other U-Boats from the reports.

I've said all along that the vast majority of single ships were found simply by being sighted. Your evidence supports that view.

[sergbuto]

Oh look - Single shipping reports from uboats

F.d.U./B.d.U.'S War Log
1 - 15 November 1942
PG30313A


http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30313A.htm

U 563 reports ship traveling alone in BE 2647 on course 00. Pursuit was broken off because of excessive use of lubricating oil. 4)U 440 operated against single ship on courses in CG 7535 at 1418 hours. No attack because of high speed.

5)U 606 missed shot on single ship in AK 6839, course 2200, speed 16 knots

5)U 117 sighted two-stack steamers in AK 8926, course 400, speed 14 knots

3)U 218 reported fast ship sailing alone in AK 9549, which disappeared after being followed for a while.

2)U 522 sighted a two-funneled passenger steamer in AK 6652 on course 1800. Pursuit was discontinued because speed of ship was too great. The same ship was possibly sighted by U 263 in AL 4177 on course 2500.

3)U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851

c)U-boat sightings: FB 2711, FK 1162, CA 3794.
Sightings by aircraft: in BF 4832.
SOS message from Norwegian tanker "South Africa" (9,234 tons) in DQ 3750.
SSS message from unknown steamer in KZ 4612.

2)U 183 situation: Single ship and convoy movements in BB 8175

U 106 situation: Only 1 steamer sighted in BB. Heavy sea patrols both by single ships and groups, medium air patrols. Boat operating further in BB and CB 20

U 68 also given permission for freedom of action on her return cruise because of Italian U-boat's report of ship movements in the area.

4)U 438 lost contact on a steamer in BD 3853, two stacks, course northward, speed 16 knots

2)Situation and sighting reports: U 171 in KY 6968, ship "Cerion", sailing empty was engaged by artillery over a period of 2 days and nights in heavy swells, course 2400. Artillery action broken off due to failure of U-boat gun. 15 November ship "California" pursued in vain. Course 2700, speed 16 knots.

U 504 FU 8788 supply ship, course S.E. speed 16 knots.

U 160 15 November an empty freighter in EO 1568, course 3100.

U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851.

Aha, another transmission from BDU to make us aware what's happening. I'll tell Navigator to put reported contacts on the map which are within the 300 km radius. Some of them may lead us to a convoy. :lol:

[bigboywooly]

Aha, another transmission from BDU to make us aware what's happening. I'll tell Navigator to put reported contacts on the map which are within the 300 km radius. Some of them may lead us to a convoy. :lol:

Exactly Serg
Even if you didnt recieve reports from BDU direct you would have picked up radio reports from the sending Uboat and ploted them on the map
If they were close to your location you might have thought about an intercept course

I dont recall the game ever telling me the location of a ship so as to go and sink it
It provides a mark on a map ( as my navigator would have done ) and its up to me as to whether I go after it or ignore it

That report is just a few lines from a 2 week period in Nov 1942

If I had the time and inclination to go thru the whole war would find hundreds more
But I dont:rotfl:

Oh and those are radio reports IN to BDU not out

[Puster Bill]

PSE OM HR MSG BT
NR 1 CK 63 0716 1735 BT
OZNK GXYX DFXI CACD LOOW HTXB WHFJ ZUGD LKMI VOGI
LGIJ NMGD LFJN SJNH AOSK MRGI LRPF LAKA NNFQ GVIV
DENH LKWE ZGGQ ZCVH ZLUQ BZKQ QCNV GSFE JMOJ QMEH
RQEM DSOA MKHM JUXU JWAI XAYY PRNU DNXT TZVB LISB
BKYY NACR FHOK ZRGK AKRF YGQD LQLM RWKL RMAJ OUUE
SSKA FXTV WPMF IAZA DJUG WDLX NARL XXKZ YHZN QULS
SXOP TGNU YCMN
BT AR K

Kriegsmarine Enigma mit drei rotoren. Einstellungen für heute:

Innere Einstellung:
Reflektor: B
Walzenlage: V VII I
Ringstellung: W F T
Ausseneinstellung: S W V
Stecker: AF GY WX HL

Have fun!

[U-Bones]

Loose lips sink ships.

The clear implication of that statement is that information is EFFECTIVELY funneled to the eager ears of u-boat captains. It was common knowledge. Information was commonly available, and it was commonly gathered and acted upon. Common, not rare.

Single ship contacts are not a statement that every other contact was a radio vector, as some seem to imply, but are REPRESENTITIVE of the product of many different forms of intel, none of which are modeled in game. IMO it is a fair representation. I respect differing opinions if they are logical.

If the goal of this thread is to make the game work as desired, then... edit the SCR and RDN campaign files to have the desired % for contact reports.

ReportPosProbability=0
or
ReportPosProbability=100
or anywhere in between.
Enjoy.

If the goal of the thread is to simply berate those with different opinions, or to impress with uberhistoricalness, then that should be pretty clear from here on out.

Any bets ?

[Sir Big Jugs]

GREETINGS ALL I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT TO MAGUA THAT THROUGH VARIOUS METHODS UBOATS DID INDEED GET SINGLE SHIP CONTACT INFORMATION
STOP

IT WASNT AS GOOD AS WE GET IN SHIII BUT IT DID HAPPEN AS I AND OTHERS HAVE SHOWN
STOP

BEST REGADS FROM PUSTER BILL BQR


Man I just LOVE to decode Enigma messages!:rock:

[Puster Bill]

uberhistoricalness

This is my new favorite word. :up:

[Puster Bill]

GREETINGS ALL I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT TO MAGUA THAT THROUGH VARIOUS METHODS UBOATS DID INDEED GET SINGLE SHIP CONTACT INFORMATION
STOP

IT WASNT AS GOOD AS WE GET IN SHIII BUT IT DID HAPPEN AS I AND OTHERS HAVE SHOWN
STOP

BEST REGADS FROM PUSTER BILL BQR


Man I just LOVE to decode Enigma messages!:rock:

You da man BP, you da man!

So, are you ultra rich and have an enigma of your own, or are you like the rest of us peons?

By the way, the 'AR K' at the end are standard prosigns meaning 'End of Message' and 'Over'. They aren't part of the encoded message. To clarify a little, I edited the original post to have 'BT AR K' (Break text, end of message, over) on a separate line, to reduce confusion.

Now, can you tell me what the preamble to the message says?

[Sir Big Jugs]

You da man BP, you da man!:rock::rock::rock:

So, are you ultra rich and have an enigma of your own, or are you like the rest of us peons? Guess three times. . .:cool::cool::cool: I'm 14 hey! Where'd I get the money?;););)


By the way, the 'AR K' at the end are standard prosigns meaning 'End of Message' and 'Over'. They aren't part of the encoded message. To clarify a little, I edited the original post to have 'BT AR K' (Break text, end of message, over) on a separate line, to reduce confusion.

Didn't know that. Sorry.:oops::oops::oops:

Now, can you tell me what the preamble to the message says?

Does "MSG" stand for message by any chance. . .?

[Puster Bill]

You da man BP, you da man!:rock::rock::rock:

So, are you ultra rich and have an enigma of your own, or are you like the rest of us peons? Guess three times. . .:cool::cool::cool: I'm 14 hey! Where'd I get the money?;););)


By the way, the 'AR K' at the end are standard prosigns meaning 'End of Message' and 'Over'. They aren't part of the encoded message. To clarify a little, I edited the original post to have 'BT AR K' (Break text, end of message, over) on a separate line, to reduce confusion.
Didn't know that. Sorry.:oops::oops::oops:

Now, can you tell me what the preamble to the message says?
Does "MSG" stand for message by any chance. . .?
Yep. Here is how it would look in fairly standard english:

PSE OM HR MSG BT

"Please Old Man Here Message [break text]"

"Old Man" is a common term to use in morse when you are talking to a male, but don't know his name. Actual age doesn't matter. If it's a female, they are 'YL', for 'Young Lady'.

NR 1 CK 63 0716 1735 BT

"Number 1, Check (number of groups in message) 63, Date, Time [break text]"

I'm not sure what kind of a preamble the Kriegsmarine used, and I didn't feel like looking it up, so I used a fairly common and generic preamble.

Don't feel bad, though. I was in the signals intelligence business many years ago, and have been a ham radio operator since then, so this stuff is second nature to me. I'll cut you some slack this time.

Anyone know where I can find undecoded raw intercepts online?

[Sir Big Jugs]

You haven't established contact with OH2HMA (Finland) by any chance?:hmm:

[Puster Bill]

You haven't established contact with OH2HMA (Finland) by any chance?:hmm:


Give me a little time to check my logs. I'll let you know in a few minutes. I have contacted a few finnish stations.

I keep my logs in actual book form (I don't trust computers with stuff I truly want to keep. I'm a programmer/analyst and I know what happens to data!), so it will take a little while.

[Puster Bill]

You haven't established contact with OH2HMA (Finland) by any chance?:hmm:


Here are my Finnish contacts:

27 SEP 03 OH6NIO
'' OH6OS
28 SEP 03 OH7OI

Didn't find OH2HMA. Those three contacts were on 15 meters USB.

[Sir Big Jugs]

OK. Thanks for searching! I appreciate it!

IF you ever happen to contact OH2HMA tell him greetings from "Totti". He'll know who it is. . .;)

[Puster Bill]

OK. Thanks for searching! I appreciate it!

IF you ever happen to contact OH2HMA tell him greetings from "Totti". He'll know who it is. . .;)

Will do, although I have to admit that SHIII seriously cuts into my operating time. Don't get on as much as I used to (although, my 2 year old son probably has more to do with that than SHIII).

[Magua]

Loose lips sink ships.

The clear implication of that statement is that information is EFFECTIVELY funneled to the eager ears of u-boat captains. It was common knowledge. Information was commonly available, and it was commonly gathered and acted upon. Common, not rare.

Single ship contacts are not a statement that every other contact was a radio vector, as some seem to imply, but are REPRESENTITIVE of the product of many different forms of intel, none of which are modeled in game. IMO it is a fair representation. I respect differing opinions if they are logical.

If the goal of this thread is to make the game work as desired, then... edit the SCR and RDN campaign files to have the desired % for contact reports.

ReportPosProbability=0
or
ReportPosProbability=100
or anywhere in between.
Enjoy.

If the goal of the thread is to simply berate those with different opinions, or to impress with uberhistoricalness, then that should be pretty clear from here on out.

Any bets ?


Disagreeing: yes.................Berating: No

Another word you might like besides "uberhistoricalness" is Farby, or Farbiness

You can probably google it to find the meaning. :up:

[Puster Bill]

Just for fun, I tried decoding my message with a 4 rotor Enigma, using the Beta wheel set to 'A' for both ring and rotor settings, along with the thin 'B' reflector, and it worked like a charm...

By the way, this is the niftiest enigma simulator I have found:

http://users.telenet.be/d.rijmenants/en/enigmasim.htm

It does Army/Luftwaffe and Navy 3 and 4 rotor. Plus it looks cool.
:rock:

[U-Bones]

Disagreeing: yes.................Berating: No
Another word you might like besides "uberhistoricalness" is Farby, or Farbiness
You can probably google it to find the meaning. :up:

Nice one ;)

ReportPosProbability=0% ??

[OuNiS]

I like single contacts, but sound contacts.
Generally I seek contacts about 21 m suberged at very little speed 3-4 knots. Where HA reports sound contact, i try analyze sound (i not hunting on trawlers, fishingboats,
tugboats in may opinion ist's waste of shells/torps). When I recognize that sound is from much bigger trawlers etc. then I prepare to battle. In other case i sail away.
It's very exciting. Better than firing torpedos.i

[Magua]

I like single contacts, but sound contacts.
Generally I seek contacts about 21 m suberged at very little speed 3-4 knots. Where HA reports sound contact, i try analyze sound (i not hunting on trawlers, fishingboats,
tugboats in may opinion ist's waste of shells/torps). When I recognize that sound is from much bigger trawlers etc. then I prepare to battle. In other case i sail away.
It's very exciting. Better than firing torpedos.i

It is definately exciting! Either a surface or submerged Contact that you stumble upon. The "Ship Sighted!" Message just about knocks me out of my chair!

Kind of like this exerpt from U-Boat Ace by Jordan Vause:

U-43 was four days out of port. The lookouts, four of them, yawned as they scanned the horizon in every direction. They were tired and they were wet, but still they stood and watched.
..............."Ship!" called one of them suddenly . "Red Six O" "I see it," said another with a whisle of amazement.......

They went on to sink it.

Much more exciting than, "Oh there that contact is that I saw on my map hours ago......ho hum...."

I've been pretty lucky a few times by finding single contacts when I do daily trim dives. The Sound man Rocks!