What it's about. (An essay NOT on Islam)

[Skybird]

This refers to a discussion that we just had yesterday.

http://people.freenet.de/Skybird/Whatitsabout.pdf

This is the English translation of a text that I originally wrote in German language several years ago, for certain reasons and demands that have nothing to do with this board and the discussions here. That I now translated it into English also has nothing to do with this board’s usual business, sharing it here just makes the effort (and translating it really was a pain for me, and very tricky) a little bit more worthwhile than just the original reason to translate it.

It derives from years when I taught people in meditation on a daily basis, for several years, until last decembre. I have done meditation since I have been a schoolboy, and over the last years I had roughly 300, maybe some more, “students” (don’t know a better word), whom I hope to have given a helpful example, and assistance and self-reliance as far as I am able to give that. I started with that after being encouraged to do that by both my former professor, and by my former second teacher, a Zen-master from Germany.

I post it “as is”, it is very much the essence of what I think of things and life, and why. My life, my past working, my present acting and my thinking very much is basing on these reasons and thoughts. It’s my personal agenda, so to speak. Do with it what you want. Copy it, or send it into the rubbish bin. If you find it to be of value for you or others, nice, that is okay, I’m glad that it could be of help. If you find it worthless and throw it away, that is okay too, it’s only ink and paper. It is no obligation, just a random opportunity, so feel free to reject it when you are disgusted or you think this serves your life best – you do not have other options than to follow your judgement anyway. It’s your life, and your consequences. Just don’t expect me to discuss and defend this text, or to change it because you eventually don’t like it.

I am perfectly aware of the risks and dangers when putting stuff like this into written word, and I also know how contradictory and limited the reach of such endeavours necessarily must be, always, no one must remind me of that. But back then I had to realize that you need to pick people up where they actually are, not where you want them to be - and people love it to have something that they can hold in their hands and carry home. Later they see that this is in vain and so they throw it away, and that is a good sign. I do not make this essay available in order to proselytize people, but to make the very time-consuming effort to translate it a little bit more worthwhile for myself - so much for how far I have defeated my own little ego :lol: In fact, I was extremely hesitant to even write the original back then, and wouldn’t have done so if I just wouldn’t have been confronted with according requests from students of mine time and again. Three students in the last group came from North America and are about to return during this summer. They had asked me to translate it, for they want to take it and use it in their own professions which are set in educational fields and highschool settings. I assume they will refine my sometimes rough language. :lol:

You will notice that I included many text boxes that are embedded in the main text, quoting from several different books and films that I happen to know, and which I have in their German versions. These passages I translated back into English, and that certainly had its’ price, language-wise. If you happen to recognize such text passages and have the according English originals, I would appreciate it very much if you would copy and send me these passages so that I can use them to replace my sometimes inadequate attempts to translate them back from the German translation. This is not needed for the quotes from “The thin red line” and the Bible, which I copied from the originals, and the verses from the TaoTeKing, that I completely have newly translated into German myself and thus translated into English on the basis of my own version of the book.

What I have learned from this translation is that translating an existing text adequately is far more difficult than writing it all new in a foreign language. You simply cannot work-around lacking knowledge of vocabulary and idioms so easily. Translating it took me several times as much time than writing the German original.

If you want to print it out: the original page layout is basing on Din A4, and it has 25 pages

[Kurushio]

How about you give us a clue what it's about. I hate opening PDF files online...it makes my computer stutter. :roll:

[Skybird]

I post it “as is” (...) Just don’t expect me to discuss and defend this text

Or to further summarize it.

[joea]

Thanks Sky. I can read it myself.

[Kurushio]

Ok, I took the bait. But I skimmed through it (I hate reading PDF files online). One question: Who is Wong-Po?! :huh:

Though the gist of it is...religion is all tripe...I already knew that. Listen, the idiots who wrote the bible forgot to include dinosaurs. Or, as is more likely, they never knew about them, because they never dug one up. So if God didn't make the dinosaurs, who did? Or more likely, there is no God.

For God's sake (no pun intended) why should our version of God exist and not the Romans or Greek Gods or Buddha or a Sphinx shaped God like the Egyptians worshipped. Cos it's all tripe, that's why. There-is-no-God. Though I'm willing to believe in other planetry life forms. :up:

[Skybird]

You can save pdf files and must not read them online. Use the button in the upper left corner.

Huang-Po: teacher of Lin-Chi (jap.: Rinzai), 9th century, both are considered to be two of the most influental and exemplary Chan masters ever. Hui-Neng (also quoted, 7th and early 8th century) also belongs to this circle of names. He was the sixth and last partiarch of Chan in China and is considered to be the most important figure in Chan ever.

Thomas a Kempis: Augustiner monk, 15th century, wellknown for his famous work "De imitatione Christi". He is understood to be a representative of the Christian mystic like Meister Eckehard (14th century), the latter one probably being the most wellknown and important figure of mystic ("Predigten und Traktate" as one of his major works).

And all that history stuff is important not a bit. ;)

[joea]

Ok, I took the bait. But I skimmed through it (I hate reading PDF files online). One question: Who is Wong-Po?! :huh:

Though the gist of it is...religion is all tripe...I already knew that. Listen, the idiots who wrote the bible forgot to include dinosaurs. Or, as is more likely, they never knew about them, because they never dug one up. So if God didn't make the dinosaurs, who did? Or more likely, there is no God.

For God's sake (no pun intended) why should our version of God exist and not the Romans or Greek Gods or Buddha or a Sphinx shaped God like the Egyptians worshipped. Cos it's all tripe, that's why. There-is-no-God. Though I'm willing to believe in other planetry life forms. :up:

Your opinion, just because those who wrote the bible didn't know about dinosaurs it doesn't follow there is no God. :roll:

Honestly some of you atheists/agnostics are as dogmatic as believers sometimes. :damn:

[scandium]

Ok, I took the bait. But I skimmed through it (I hate reading PDF files online). One question: Who is Wong-Po?! :huh:

Though the gist of it is...religion is all tripe...I already knew that. Listen, the idiots who wrote the bible forgot to include dinosaurs. Or, as is more likely, they never knew about them, because they never dug one up. So if God didn't make the dinosaurs, who did? Or more likely, there is no God.

For God's sake (no pun intended) why should our version of God exist and not the Romans or Greek Gods or Buddha or a Sphinx shaped God like the Egyptians worshipped. Cos it's all tripe, that's why. There-is-no-God. Though I'm willing to believe in other planetry life forms. :up:
Your opinion, just because those who wrote the bible didn't know about dinosaurs it doesn't follow there is no God. :roll:

Honestly some of you atheists/agnostics are as dogmatic as believers sometimes. :damn:
Personally I am agnostic but I try not to be dogmatic about it (I leave that to the atheists ;)). I have no issue with "faith" (and at times I've envied those who had it and wished I could have some as well) but have been turned off by organized religion. I'm neither convinced by any religious arguements nor so cynical yet as to discount any possibility of a higher power. But for those who do find comfort in whatever their religion (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Wicca, Idol worship, whatever) then all the more power to you. :up:

[Kurushio]

Ok, I took the bait. But I skimmed through it (I hate reading PDF files online). One question: Who is Wong-Po?! :huh:

Though the gist of it is...religion is all tripe...I already knew that. Listen, the idiots who wrote the bible forgot to include dinosaurs. Or, as is more likely, they never knew about them, because they never dug one up. So if God didn't make the dinosaurs, who did? Or more likely, there is no God.

For God's sake (no pun intended) why should our version of God exist and not the Romans or Greek Gods or Buddha or a Sphinx shaped God like the Egyptians worshipped. Cos it's all tripe, that's why. There-is-no-God. Though I'm willing to believe in other planetry life forms. :up:
Your opinion, just because those who wrote the bible didn't know about dinosaurs it doesn't follow there is no God. :roll:

Honestly some of you atheists/agnostics are as dogmatic as believers sometimes. :damn:
Erhermm...I am a Catholic. Or they say I am. :D No...though listen mate. Where was the diplodocus on the ark? What about all the thousands of other dinosaurs? It wasn't...you see...and isn't mentioned once. So..according to the bible, what happened to the dinosaurs?

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones. Now, you can either believe that tripe, or believe in dinosaurs. I personally believe in dinosaurs and science.

Though next time you're ill, don;t go to a hospital...put your faith in God...he'll heal you. :yep:

:roll:

[The Avon Lady]

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones.
Wrong! I'm a Jurassic Jew (http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/504). So are all of my friends and neighbors.

And I personally know very few coreligionists who think otherwise, and their ignorance can usually be attributed to cases of an extremly blinkered education.

Maybe I'll make fried pterydactal wings for supper. :p

[Kurushio]

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones. Wrong! I'm a Jurassic Jew (http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/504). So are all of my friends and neighbors.

And I personally know very few coreligionists who think otherwise, and their ignorance can usually be attributed to cases of an extremly blinkered education.

Maybe I'll make fried pterydactal wings for supper. :p

That's interesting Lady. But you'll find the official line of Christians and muslims is that the dinosaurs are a concoction made up by scientists. Especially for Christians considering they are not mentioned once in the bible and you'd think they'd mention something as significant as a 200 hundred ton monster. Also, the fact that dinosaurs further prove Darwins theory over the creation of Earth by God. It's either Darwinism or Godma.

But anyway...most religious people pick and choose what they want to believe...hence why religion is not serious in my book.

[The Avon Lady]

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones. Wrong! I'm a Jurassic Jew (http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/504). So are all of my friends and neighbors.

And I personally know very few coreligionists who think otherwise, and their ignorance can usually be attributed to cases of an extremly blinkered education.

Maybe I'll make fried pterydactal wings for supper. :p

That's interesting Lady. But you'll find the official line of Christians and muslims is that the dinosaurs are a concoction made up by scientists. Especially for Christians considering they are not mentioned once in the bible and you'd think they'd mention something as significant as a 200 hundred ton monster.
Why? Are ants insignificant? Anyway, I cannot speak for other religions but they're invited to take a free ride on Judaism's ancient texts, if they have no disagreements.
Also, the fact that dinosaurs further prove Darwins theory over the creation of Earth by God. It's either Darwinism or Godma.
Darwins theory remains just that. It's got a lot of holes in it.
But anyway...most religious people pick and choose what they want to believe.
Again, I cannot speak for other religions.

[Skybird]

I'm a Jurassic Jew (http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/504).

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Skybird]

That's what surprises and entertains me at this board so often: how very different than expected a thread can go - can't remember to have written a single word about dinosaurs. :lol:

[joea]

Ok, I took the bait. But I skimmed through it (I hate reading PDF files online). One question: Who is Wong-Po?! :huh:

Though the gist of it is...religion is all tripe...I already knew that. Listen, the idiots who wrote the bible forgot to include dinosaurs. Or, as is more likely, they never knew about them, because they never dug one up. So if God didn't make the dinosaurs, who did? Or more likely, there is no God.

For God's sake (no pun intended) why should our version of God exist and not the Romans or Greek Gods or Buddha or a Sphinx shaped God like the Egyptians worshipped. Cos it's all tripe, that's why. There-is-no-God. Though I'm willing to believe in other planetry life forms. :up:
Your opinion, just because those who wrote the bible didn't know about dinosaurs it doesn't follow there is no God. :roll:

Honestly some of you atheists/agnostics are as dogmatic as believers sometimes. :damn:
Erhermm...I am a Catholic. Or they say I am. :D No...though listen mate. Where was the diplodocus on the ark? What about all the thousands of other dinosaurs? It wasn't...you see...and isn't mentioned once. So..according to the bible, what happened to the dinosaurs?

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones. Now, you can either believe that tripe, or believe in dinosaurs. I personally believe in dinosaurs and science.

Though next time you're ill, don;t go to a hospital...put your faith in God...he'll heal you. :yep:

:roll:
Thanks for the presumptions and the insults I believe in both, now since you are ignorant of what other Christian churches say read up a bit, though I will add one point, Catholics like Orthodox don't believe all Christian truth is contained in the Bible unlike Protestants:
http://orthodoxcanada.org/sciandorth/scienceNfaith.htm

http://orthodoxcanada.org/sciandorth/modelsOFreality.htm

Some points:
It is my proposal to demonstrate that almost all the apparent conflicts between science and faith arise from models of reality and not from reality itself. The resolution to such conflict may arise from a re-examination of the models of reality we hold, which are based on obsolete information.
...
AN OUTLINE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF OUR CONSIDERATION 1. Metaphor is integral to language, and the language of Scripture is rich in metaphor.
2. There are serious problems and loss of meaning when one literalises metaphor. 3. All tribes and societies throughout history have used stories to transmit their understanding of the meaning of life. It is a singular curiosity of our modern era that these stories are often presented, not as landscapes of meaning, but as concrete fact, history and science.
4. Challenging models of reality formed by the literalisation of metaphor and simple narratives is inevitable, and sincerely believing persons need to be clear about the language of meaning that constitute the purpose of a story, and not become party to the reduction of that story to history or science. We should also be open to changes in our models of reality.
5. Testing models of reality with regards to cosmology, the creation narrative and man's history: a. Science: the scientific method.
b. Religious: consistency of meaning, rather than concreteness of facts.
6. Theoria: a shared concept between physics and Orthodox Christian theology.
7. Science and Christianity: The challenge of living harmoniously with one another.


Simple stories told for simple people are intended to convey meaning. They are not concerned with scientific facts or chronological accuracy. They will often contain sophisticated psychology in narrative that appears naive on the surface. Although the stories appear simple, the meaning they convey may be complex and surprising in its depth.
Metaphor, which is very rich in older languages, conveys meaning by means of interlocking imagery. It is not "concrete" language. It has a fluidity that can convey textures of meaning which more concrete language cannot. Metaphor also contains an internal dissonance that warns one not to literalise it.*
At the very least, literalising a simple narrative story or a metaphor creates a false model of reality. In relation to scripture and theology, when we literalize a metaphor, we create idolatry.
Let us look at the creation narrative in the book of Genesis, for example. The details and processes of the creation of the universe, our solar system and our earth are extremely complex. Indeed these matters are so complex and difficult to comprehend that the best scientific minds in history with the finest technology are only now unfolding the details, though with difficulty.
Why would the scripture attempt to explain all this vast complexity - so complex in many details that it exceeds human language and requires mathematical formulae to express it - to a wandering tribe of Hebrews who were not yet literate? * Instead the narrative presents a simple story, but one filled with meaning and revelation. Moses had to come down from Sinai with the Ten Commandments; it would have been of no value for him to have returned with the Periodic Table of the Elements.









*My bold

And here:




http://orthodoxcanada.org/qa_archives/question7.html



The earth is about four billion years old, and the process of creation lasted many billions of years more than that. Scripture is not concerned with giving us the fine details of the process of creation, but with explaining to us in clear terms the meaning of it so that we can understand the nature of our relationship with God, Who did the creating.

...

Scripture is inerrant, our understanding of it is not always so. Contradiction which appear to occur in Scripture are often the result of the natural dissonance of metaphorical language. This must be born in mind when understanding the meaning of the inerrancy of Scripture.



The point, and I don't care if you accept this or believe it or not I am stating the Eastern Orthodox view on things, there is a "sacred tradition" in Orthodoxy kept by the Church (the whole Church not just the Pope as in Catholicism) the bible is only a collection of books by different authors, written at different stages of the Revelation and history, that leave many details not important at the time out.

[Skybird]

Darwins theory remains just that. It's got a lot of holes in it.
I agree. I found this theory always being at least as convincing as that of Darwin, it scores some very important points.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

Nevertheless, it all is theory, no knowledge. And a gorilla in real is as impressive and precious and complex acting a creature as is a dolphin - as long as we do not understand this, our theories are of second grade importance only.

[joea]

That's interesting Lady. But you'll find the official line of Christians and muslims is that the dinosaurs are a concoction made up by scientists.

Read my quotes that is not true, at least for some Christians, can't speak for Muslims.

[The Avon Lady]

can't speak for Muslims.
Ask the Imam (http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=111). :yep:

EDIT: More affirmative opinion (http://www.answering-christianity.com/dinosaurs.htm).

[joea]

Actually I will. :up:

[TteFAboB]

Nuts!

How pathetic that the name of the story escapes me right now, but I'm feeling alot like that Psychiatrist from a little town who jails somebody new every day, finding lunatics and crazy whackos at every corner, untill one day he has the entire little town arrested at the Asylum and only he is left outside. Then he logically concludes that either the entire town is nuts, or he is, and so he releases the entire town to lock himself up in the nuthouse alone.

:doh:

Aquatic apes do exist:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5584/shot00740dr.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4613/shot00751kr.png

And the evolved species:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8572/shot00725tm.png
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8375/shot00737an.png

[Kurushio]

Well, if anyone here has a better explanation for Neanderthal man than Darwin, I am all ears. ;)

By the way, blind faith is stupidity.

There is no God...why should there be a God and not MANY Gods like the Romans believed? Or aliens? I was brought up a Catholic, that's how I came to realise how ridiculous religion is.

p.s. If there is a God, why didn;t he punish the 4,000 odd pedo Catholic priests in the US? :roll:

Amen.

[joea]

Did you bother reading what I posted? Some Christians believe in Neanderthal man, no reason to insult everyone whop does not share the same belief as you.

[Skybird]

One reader of that essay just linked me to this cartoon. I spend five minutes to laugh my a$$ off.

The text translates like this: "Ah, look, Herr Lohmann and Fräulein Krause, good morning! We just have spoken about you!"

http://www.wolf-ruediger-marunde.de/cartoons91/cartoons91Bilder/0185_gruessGott.jpg

[Kurushio]

Can a Christian please explain Neanderthel man then? What was it...and on the seventh day God created Neanderthal, then changed his mind and created Cro Magnon then decided on Homo Sapien? :lol:

Were they failed "experiments"? :roll:

By the way...if on the 6th, God made animals, and on the 7th he made man/woman...when did he make dinosaurs? Considering man and dinosaurs have never met?

Awaiting your answers with baited breath.;)

[scandium]

Good old X-Man :up: Man I loved that game, its a pity they changed it so much after the second one (breaking for me that which was not broken).

Edit: X-Com I meant :lol: I think I had the movie on my mind when I first posted ;)

Nuts!

How pathetic that the name of the story escapes me right now, but I'm feeling alot like that Psychiatrist from a little town who jails somebody new every day, finding lunatics and crazy whackos at every corner, untill one day he has the entire little town arrested at the Asylum and only he is left outside. Then he logically concludes that either the entire town is nuts, or he is, and so he releases the entire town to lock himself up in the nuthouse alone.

:doh:

Aquatic apes do exist:

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5584/shot00740dr.png
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4613/shot00751kr.png

And the evolved species:

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8572/shot00725tm.png
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/8375/shot00737an.png

[bradclark1]

p.s. If there is a God, why didn;t he punish the 4,000 odd pedo Catholic priests in the US? :roll:


Because when they were found out they really started praying hard.

[thanos]

Can a Christian please explain Neanderthel man then? What was it...and on the seventh day God created Neanderthal, then changed his mind and created Cro Magnon then decided on Homo Sapien? :lol:

Were they failed "experiments"? :roll:

By the way...if on the 6th, God made animals, and on the 7th he made man/woman...when did he make dinosaurs? Considering man and dinosaurs have never met?

Awaiting your answers with baited breath.;)

Joea ALREADY explained to you the view of the Orthodox church (which could very well be the view of the Catholic church, but I don't know). Orthodox Christians *don't* take the Bible literally. The 7 days of creation are not _literal_ 24-hour days but span millions of years or more.

[joea]

Can a Christian please explain Neanderthel man then? What was it...and on the seventh day God created Neanderthal, then changed his mind and created Cro Magnon then decided on Homo Sapien? :lol:

Were they failed "experiments"? :roll:

By the way...if on the 6th, God made animals, and on the 7th he made man/woman...when did he make dinosaurs? Considering man and dinosaurs have never met?

Awaiting your answers with baited breath.;)

AGAIN I ASK. Did you read anything I wrote? Or do you have some kind of comprehension problem? I already answered that in the links I provided. Ignoring what I wrote and going off on your own tirade which is wrong headed does not make you look very good my friend.

[Iceman]

Can a Christian please explain Neanderthel man then? What was it...and on the seventh day God created Neanderthal, then changed his mind and created Cro Magnon then decided on Homo Sapien? :lol:

Were they failed "experiments"? :roll:

By the way...if on the 6th, God made animals, and on the 7th he made man/woman...when did he make dinosaurs? Considering man and dinosaurs have never met?

Awaiting your answers with baited breath.;)

You assume one day in the begining is as a day to humans...use you brain here for a minute and maybe read the first Chapter of Genesis with an open mind.....

A quote from the egg head scientists..

"In a study published today in the journal Science, a team of researchers says the universe is between 11.2 billion and 20 billion years old.
Most estimates in recent years have ranged between 10 billion and 15 billion years. Last year, data supplied by the Hubble Space Telescope led to an apparently refined estimate of 13 billion to 14 billion years."

Ok so for sake of argument here well say the universe is old....started from something going "Bang"....

Hum....maybe the bang was...

Genesis 1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Ok so here's the bang....boom...bam!....

hum then a few billion yrs pass as these things happen...

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.
[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

and then....

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Genesis 2

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
[6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now you figure the "Time" it took to do all that and you can try to argue the details of creation which the "Egg Heads" have "proven" took billions of yrs to acomplish what if they are right?...and what if the Bible is right....and it is simply mis-understood.

Ask yourself a serious question...what is "Time" to a being in which Eternal Life is the order of the day?...Time is a concept man has created to try to make himself feel like he has a handle on things....

Be nice if Einstein could have proved his theory of "Everything" or whatever it was called when trying to prove the exsistence of God.....

You are in company with a man named Thomas...who would not believe until you touch the wounds of Christ Himself.

It is folly don't you think to discount so much that has been written and discussed by scientists and those who have sought the same answers since man could think.Skybird comes to mind when I read his posts about thinking for yourself and trying to achieve "Self Awareness" of ones own superiority and ignoring thousands of years of thought of others.

Faith is the trick indeed and everyone has to be convinced in his own mind of what is truth and real.It is written though and I know it to be true....Seek and ye shall find.Knock and it shall be opened to you.I bit.

Side note...to be hung up on the fact dino's were not mentioned specifically or ape man...maybe it is and you just don't get it.So don't get scared that maybe you had it wrong if your still alive there is still "Time" for you. :) ....close your eyes....life goes on inside too.

[Skybird]

p.s. If there is a God, why didn;t he punish the 4,000 odd pedo Catholic priests in the US? :roll:


Because when they were found out they really started praying hard.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kurushio]

Don't bother posting more then two lines. I'd fall asleep in church even if the nuns ran around naked singing "tra-la-la!". Religion bores me...and I take it about as serious as a French declaration of war. So for anyone that asked: "No...I did not read what you wrote." :up:

[thanos]

Don't bother posting more then two lines. I'd fall asleep in church even if the nuns ran around naked singing "tra-la-la!". Religion bores me...and I take it about as serious as a French declaration of war. So for anyone that asked: "No...I did not read what you wrote." :up:
So you asked your questions, 3 people answered them (some answers were short, some were long) and NOW you tell us that you "don't bother reading our answers". So MY QUESTION is: why did you ask those questions (and said something like "I eagerly await your answers"), if not to actually get replies? Might it be, perhaps, that you were flamebaiting?

[Kurushio]

Don't bother posting more then two lines. I'd fall asleep in church even if the nuns ran around naked singing "tra-la-la!". Religion bores me...and I take it about as serious as a French declaration of war. So for anyone that asked: "No...I did not read what you wrote." :up:
So you asked your questions, 3 people answered them (some answers were short, some were long) and NOW you tell us that you "don't bother reading our answers". So MY QUESTION is: why did you ask those questions (and said something like "I eagerly await your answers"), if not to actually get replies? Might it be, perhaps, that you were flamebaiting?
I said, "I eagerly await your answer"...not "I eagerly await your essay". :roll:

[thanos]

I said, "I eagerly await your answer"...not "I eagerly await your essay". :roll:

I gave you a 2-line answer. Did you read it?

[Kurushio]

I said, "I eagerly await your answer"...not "I eagerly await your essay". :roll:
I gave you a 2-line answer. Did you read it?

I read the first line.

[joea]

I said, "I eagerly await your answer"...not "I eagerly await your essay". :roll:
I gave you a 2-line answer. Did you read it?

I read the first line.

The second line:
Orthodox Christians *don't* take the Bible literally. The 7 days of creation are not _literal_ 24-hour days but span millions of years or more.

Too difficult to read? This belief has been part of Orthodoxy for centuries before Darwin. So either read what I bothered posting, or at least apologise for your statement:

Listen mate, say all you want, but true belivers of God deny the existance of dinosaurs and say scientists made dinosaur bones out of chicken bones. Now, you can either believe that tripe, or believe in dinosaurs. I personally believe in dinosaurs and science.

Though next time you're ill, don;t go to a hospital...put your faith in God...he'll heal you.
I belive in dinosaurs and God so do other Christians, what don't you understand?

If you want to remain an ignoramus too bad...at least be a man and admit it.

Awaiting your apology.

[Kurushio]

I wont apologise because it's not good enough simply saying "..we don't take the bible literally". Ok then....then why believe anything in it? What...do you pick and choose parts which suit what you want to believe...or how does it work? :roll:

Fact still remains that the bible has no mention of a time when these giant lizards ruled the Earth (without humans) and were wiped out by a catastrophic event. So if the bible mentions the ark and the calamity of flooding, surely it would mention the time all life, except for micro-organisms, insects and very few animals were wiped out on earth? :roll:

I would like to ask you...do you believe in DNA and genetics? Because if you do, you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. ;) If you don't...then mate, you are a true believer in God. :lol:

[Skybird]

You guys simply miss the single one important point that I was about: why to believe this, why to believe that is not important, such discussion only benefit the interests of people that want you to believe in THEM. Discussions on these matters will not help you a bit. They will only confuse you by feeding your belief you aölready know what is to be known. Nowhere I wrote you should believe me. Nowhere. DO NOT BELIEVE ME ANYTHING, but go and see yourself!!! It all is there for you to see and to experience and too judge yourself. Nothing is hidden, no one will penalize you when wanting to know, no one is hindering you except yourself. You are given certain tools in form of your body's components and your mind that fit that purpose of exploration perfectly. They are a package that enables you to experience the Absolute yourself, immediate and most direct, you have been given all this for free, without any obligations to restrict yourself in your way to make use of them. Why don't you make use of all these gifts, instead of running computer simulations about what they maybe, eventually, probaly, likely could show, or not show you?

It's like sitting in a dark chamber with a set of photographs of various landscapes, and trying to find out all day long about which photo represents the landscape outside. that is stupid. Instead of playing your mindgames and fool yourself with your theories, why don't you stand up, go to the door, open it and walk outside to see yourself what it is? Then you know for sure! :hmm:

Dinosaurs... guys, really! :lol: I burst with laughter when reading the first reaction with that.

[Kurushio]

I would love to "go out and see for myself". But I'd probably get mugged at this hour. :shifty:

[joea]

Listen I believe in DNA and Darwin too, so it is not up to you to decide who is a "true" believer" or not. I have not commented on your beliefs only reacted to your attacks. In my posts I explained why the bible is not taken literally, you only show your ignorance again in asking questions that were answered in my posts. I don't ask you to accept what I say is true, only to accept that is my POV and that I have an answer for myself why I can believe the bible and science.

What you can't seem to understand is faith is dynamic, lookat the difference between the Old and New Testaments. I like to compare it to the study of history. Events and "facts" in history remain such, at least the primary documents are always there, barring new discoveries that actually rarely are earthshattering. Our understanding of them changes though depending on our epoch, cold war history today is rather different that what it was in the 1950s or 1960s.

Anyway, sorry the tone got a bit severe, but you did attack me and refuse to consider my explanations, while I have studied both science as well as skepticism and atheism. Hope you try to see my perspective even if you don't accept it.

@ Skybird, of course you are correct, I have been examining the whole Islam thing and current politics in the way you describe. Much as I still question my faith and other philosophies. Who was it who said "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him"?

Peace.

[The Avon Lady]

Who was it who said "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him"?
Ted Kennedy? :hmm:

[Kurushio]

If you believe in DNA and Darwin's evolution, you cannot believe in God (or the Christian, muslim and Jewish form of God...anyway). It's as simple as that. You either believe in Darwin's theory, or you don't. Can't have it both ways. It's like saying "I believe the earth is flat...though i'm going to fly around the world next week." :roll:

Listen....religion is silly. It's responsible for most of the wars and bloodshed around the world. The reason why humans can't live in peace. And it's obselete. Religion was primarily used to civilise barbaric citizens before laws existed. Well, we have laws..plenty of them and certainly a perp will not think twice about stealing from you because of "thou shalt not steal" but rather because of the threat of a ten year stretch. :yep:

I was in Sicily fighting the mafia just after they blew the hell out of Borsellino ('92) and I know for a fact that members of Cosa Nostra (Mafia) are the most devout Catholics on Earth. Kill a few people on Thursday, confess about it on Sunday...say a few Hail Marys...soul cleansed, that's their philosophy. Not to mention many of the Catholic priests who attended the confessional box when these animals confessed to their blood spilling would not inform the authorities because of an archaic religious law about confessions being confidential. So we had the supposedly "good guy" priest protecting criminals. That's nice.:roll:

Religion should be banned...this planet would become better overnight.

p.s. I put bible bashers on the same shelf as Jihadi militants

[The Avon Lady]

If you believe in DNA and Darwin's evolution, you cannot believe in God (or the Christian, muslim and Jewish form of God...anyway). It's as simple as that.
Prove it.

[Kurushio]

If you believe in DNA and Darwin's evolution, you cannot believe in God (or the Christian, muslim and Jewish form of God...anyway). It's as simple as that. Prove it.

That's like saying prove the world is round. I mean, I probably could, but you'd have to come with me on a trip on the Space Shuttle, or if you had a lot of patiance, we could ride tandem around the world on a motorbike, using GPS and a compass. :88)

[The Avon Lady]

If you believe in DNA and Darwin's evolution, you cannot believe in God (or the Christian, muslim and Jewish form of God...anyway). It's as simple as that. Prove it.

That's like saying prove the world is round. I mean, I probably could, but you'd have to come with me on a trip on the Space Shuttle, or if you had a lot of patiance, we could ride tandem around the world on a motorbike, using GPS and a compass. :88)
That's what I thought.

I don't subscribe to the theory of evolution but I don't automatically assume it to be inconsistant with my religion.

I wanna shuttle ride!!! :oops:

[Kurushio]

I'd ride with you on a shuttle anytime, Lady. :yep:

[Skybird]

I depends on what you mean when saying "God", Kurushyo. If you think of it as a personalized idol that is creator of all creation but separated from it's work, if you think of both as subject and object, you may be right. If you say "God" and mean it more as a certain quality, the "divine", or as I call it the "Absolute" that neither has created a separate creation nor is separated from it, but in fact embraces all that is, then I can accept DNA and Darwin along with such an Absolute, and very easily. I avoid the term "God" for one reason in the main (and here I do not follow the mystic's tradition who stick to it): becasue the term is already preset in this personalized, figurative understanding. Science and spirituality must not be excluding each other. In fact, spirituality is the necessary basis on which science must walk so that it works for the good of man. where it strays off into pure materialsim, it does more bad than good. It becomes cruel. Want to mind you that many of last centuries physicists are said to have been deeply religious people, often as a consequecne of their work.

I just need to look at a starry night sky, or must think about the innumerable variables interacting that needs to be set to the correct values to enable life as we know it (on carbon.hydrate-basis), and I find it hard to think of all this being just for reasons pure random chance. The question is not "How did it all come to be", and then coming up with a juvenile reply like "Big Bang!". the real question is "Why is there anything at all?" Instead of nothing? Instead of non-existence? That is the real interesting question.

[The Avon Lady]

I'd ride with you on a shuttle anytime, Lady. :yep:
I'm just warning you that I'm not planning on baking cookies for the entire crew.:nope:

[Kurushio]

I'd ride with you on a shuttle anytime, Lady. :yep: I'm just warning you that I'm not planning on baking cookies for the entire crew.:nope:

It's OK...you can do the dishes. :lol: j/k... though you realise we'd have to share a shower...they have limited water on the Shuttle.

Am I flirting with avon lady?! Shame on me!!! :88)

[The Avon Lady]

I'd ride with you on a shuttle anytime, Lady. :yep: I'm just warning you that I'm not planning on baking cookies for the entire crew.:nope:

It's OK...you can do the dishes. :lol: j/k... though you realise we'd have to share a shower...they have limited water on the Shuttle.

Am I flirting with avon lady?! Shame on me!!! :88)
/avon hides the boxcutters to severe kurushio's spacewalk cable

[Skybird]

Who was it who said "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him"?

Usually Zen in general gets the credit. Several masters centuries back used this sentencde in variations. And psychologist Sheldon Kopp made it a title of one of his books. If there is one single author of the original saying, then I am not aware of him.

[Kurushio]

I'd ride with you on a shuttle anytime, Lady. :yep: I'm just warning you that I'm not planning on baking cookies for the entire crew.:nope:
It's OK...you can do the dishes. :lol: j/k... though you realise we'd have to share a shower...they have limited water on the Shuttle.

Am I flirting with avon lady?! Shame on me!!! :88) /avon hides the boxcutters to severe kurushio's spacewalk cable

/kurushio frisks avon for the boxcutters :lol: