Request urgent lessons in submerged evasion techniques

[Eichenlaub]

Fellow Kaleuns!

Please help out this unfortunate commander. I truly am at a loss. I thought I did all the right things but alas, I am getting killed all the time now so it's time to face the music: I seem to be incapable of evading the escorts after I carry out a torpedo attack on a convoy.

I had hoped to start a new career with NYGM/GW at 100% realism and DID when I buy a new pc in a few months' time, but in light of my current performance in convoy battles, I doubt I would live past 1940-41.

I'm currently around July 1944 in a Type XXI, running a stock game patched to 1.4b; realism is set at 79%.

From 1943 I found that the DD's and DE's are incredibly apt to detect me. After launching torpedoes, I rarely get a chance to escape unharmed. My latest patrol drove this home in a way I've not yet encountered before. Out of the 6-7 attempts I've made, I got killed in each and every one. I've hit a new low.:nope:

This is the situation: I have sunk a DD or DE and have a convoy in my sights. I fire at a TT and two T3's. Though I usually sink two of them, that's when the trouble begins. The escorts come charging at me immediately. Due to the convoy set up, I usually spot the warships when they are around 800 meters away. Sometimes I can destroy a single warship but this convoy is protected by enough ships to continue the hunt for my poor Type XXI.:nope:
I dive quickly. But whatever I do, I cannot prevent being pinged by the enemy. Worse, being pinged by these escorts equals being killed. It might take a few minutes, or even half an hour, but they always seem to know perfectly at what depth I am. The measures I take are these: slow to 1 knot, run deep (around 200-225m) and always have some degrees on the rudder (10-15, to any side desirable at the time). Sometimes I remained undetected for 10 minutes...but then they ping me nonetheless. Since they always seem to know the depth I'm at (I thought ASDIC/Sonar only gave heading and range?), I get hedgehogged and depth charged invariably. I can usually escape the hogs, but the depth charges are another matter. Often the first hit damages or even destroys something critical, like all of my electric engines, my dive planes, rudder or simply reduces my HI by so much as to make my 200 meters of depth unsound.:damn:

I always thought that running silent at 1 knot at 200m would do it, but these warships detect you eventually. Evading depth charges at flank speed will only result in a "We've been detected message" withing 30 seconds of ordering flank speed only increasing their knowledge about my whereabouts.:damn:

My questions are:
-are these occurrances normal?
-what other counter measures should I take?
-any other good tips for late war convoy battles or evading while submerged?

Currently drowning my sorrows in Bavaria...no no, not the region, the BEER!:rock:

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[Mooncatt]

i ran stock for ages and i have the same trouble doesnt matter wot i do i always get detected and sunk, i run 1knot silent running everything and im too at a loss so your not on ya own m8:up: , i have now a few mods that only make it even harder now lmao:rotfl: :rotfl: so yeah any help would be cool thanx in advance

[Cpt.Thorne]

Well evading in the stock game shouldn´t be that hard but if you want to experience hours and hours of evading try NYGM 2.01 the DDs are really good in that. Well when you listen to your hydrophones (suspecting you don´t use external cam for help) you should try to keep those DDs in 180 or 0 from your boat giving them as little surface to ping as possible. When the pinging stops the DD is on the DC run. Hit flank speed and knuckle move and while your at it release Bold and change depth. You can run flank as long as DCs are exploding I usually go to 1kts between 5-8 explosions. Then try to manuver so that you are again giving as little hull surface towards the DD as possible. Especially with the XXI the flan speed dash is very effective and if the DDs spot the bold instead of you then you can start listening again and when DCs are exploding make another das and change depth. Also learn which Bold you are using and time the release and make sure you are aware when its effect is gone. If you are spotted again try repeating the above and pray for good luck.

[bigboywooly]

In late war I dont get too close to a convoy
Around 1500mtr does it and dive as soon as you fire ( dont wait for impact or to watch your torps ) and turn away from convoy
Dont crash dive as its like an alarm clock ringing on the escort
I usually hit silent running before I fire so am quiet anyway and dive the same way - it takes longer but the escorts have a harder job knowing where you are to start with
And make sure your radar is off before going anywhere near a convoy or they will know you are there before you know they are
Silence is golden:rotfl:

[bill clarke]

I have found silent running is good, just creeping along at 2 knots does nothing to hide you when your'e crew are busy clanging steel fish in to tubes.
This tecnique worked well for me on the "sink the escort carrier" mission when I had 4 DD's after me, that and depth of course.

[Macel]

I found silent running/no or slow speed and depth to be good. You're still bound to get pinged and homed in on - And when that happens, wait for the pinging to stop.. Usually you'll hear the boat coming overhead just before the pinging is about to stop - thats when you hit flank speed and do a 90 degree turn. If you've got more room below you, diving helps too. Since you're changing your position on 3 different axis, it gets you away from the DCs a lot faster, and its way too late for the destroyers to compensate for your course changes.

[Immacolata]

So what when you have two or more on your tail? I find they chase me forever. There is no getting out of their vice, seeing that the so-called simulation doesn't take thermal layers and depth charges into account when applying the DDs laser sighted onniscient range finder on my tub.

Yes I am blaming the game for my many defeats ^_^

[Stiebler]

Avoiding escorts is much harder with NYGM TW 2.0 than with stock SH3, but once you have the knack it becomes quite possible. Suggestions below certainly ought to apply to the original query, where 'only' stock escort sensors are being used.

Firstly, from June 1943 everything becomes tougher, in terms of more aircraft, larger numbers of convoy escorts, improved escort sensors. This accurately reflects reality; survival rate among real U-boats collapsed at this point. The trick is to aim to survive, rather than to sink shipping. Like real U-boat commanders, make sure that your U-boat is fitted out with long-range electric torpedoes that will run in patterns (essentially electric FAT types - the availability of these at base in NYGM now accurately reflects late war load-outs for electric FATs; make sure you grab them at base), and DO NOT use air/steam types against convoys, especially during daylight hours.

When you attack a convoy, close submerged at silent running, maximum 2 kts. If you wish to survive, it is certainly wiser not to approach closer than 4000 meters. Fire salvoes of pattern-running torpedoes from outside the escort screen. This is accurate to reality. At once, without waiting for observation of results, dive to 200 meters (assuming water is deep enough).

If you are in very shallow water (less than 25 meters), the game appears to mimick reality, in that the escort sensors become less accurate, so that attacks under these conditions are also feasible. However, attacks on closely guarded convoys in fairly shallow water (ca. 40-100 meters) are simply suicide, if there is a good escort defence.

The convoy escorts have two states: careless and alert. The careless state applies before you are sighted and before anything happens to the convoy. So, while your torpedoes are still running, speed up to 1/3 ahead (max 4 kts) and turn away from the convoy. Provided no escort is closer than about 1500 meters, you are unlikely to be noticed. However, once the torpedoes strike their target (or are seen, if air/steam type), the escorts become alert, and their detection range greatly increases. Slow down to slow ahead (max 3 kts), set course at 180 degrees to convoy (or to nearest escort, if less than 2000 meters away).

Keep an eye on the proximity of the nearest escorts using hydrophones, sonar man or stealth meter, whichever you prefer. Once within medium range (defined as 3000 meters in the game), reduce to 2 kts, keeping the stern end facing the escort. Once the escort is less than 1000 meters away (short range), reduce to 1 kt. Still silent running.

Now, a big problem is that you cannot turn at 1 kt as fast as the escort, so the escort can easily pass you by on one flank (and detect your broad beam) faster than you can turn to expose your stern to it. You have to try to guess when to start turning, but a useful trick to remember is this:
You do not have to keep running into an escort; you can use slow or 1/3 reverse engines to increase the distance from an escort that is ahead of you.

When an escort does begin an attack run, you must turn sharply to port or starboard. At 200 meters, maximum rudder at standard speed is sufficient. When the depthcharges drop, maintain speed until they cease rumbling, then slow up quickly, again showing your stern to the nearest enemy. I've found it's not too difficult to evade depthcharges with these maneouvres, even if there are 2-3 escorts present so that it is impossible to show your stern to all of them.

Finally, you should be able to slip away at 1 kt (again, this is reality). Don't try to speed things up by going prematurely to a higher speed.

Ironically, perhaps, the big problem is slipping away *after* the escorts have run out of depthcharges - they do run out eventually, although it often feels like it takes ages. Then you can't escape in the noise of the depthcharges. I've found then that just stepping up the time compression to as high as it will go, while randomly veering left and right at 1 kt, will finally shake of the pursuer(s); the escorts seem to lose interest after a while probably because their contact on the U-boat is worse than is apparent from the pings, their closenesss and the stealth meter.

I hope that helps - especially after all this typing!

Stiebler.

NYGM Tonnage War Mod - Leading Edge Realism (http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=49428)

[Immacolata]

Finally, you should be able to slip away at 1 kt (again, this is reality). Don't try to speed things up by going prematurely to a higher speed.



DOH! Ive had this game since april last year. And just now - NOW - I remember I can flip the speed dial ... ARGH. Ive been trying to sneak away with the stock slow speed setting.

I hope that helps - especially after all this typing!

Stiebler.


Well at least you made me aware of a crucial interface feature :)

But yes, it did. Thanks, I was going nuts over them destroyers. Especially after they are out of tin cans. I still can't get away from this flower corvette. It pings me, always knows where I am, no matter what I do. Change depth, run silent, do a knuckle, tie myself into knots.

[Eichenlaub]

Gentlemen: thank you all for contributing. I shall try your tips out now and see if my performance improves. I'll let you know later.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

[tbarak]

No reason to disparage as I think the intent of the designers was to make fighting late in the war very hard. This is of course done to mirror reality.

I think the only things you can do is be selective and realize that some convoys may be too well defended to attack. Attacking in bad weather and at night helps, and take your shot and run like hell. If you're caught inside a convoy, steam directly underneath a merchant, one that's wounded is ideal. That way the escorts can't touch you and they will eventually leave. You can then finish off the wounded merchant at your leisure.

Attacking from greater range helps and take good advantage of the acoustic homers and FATS. The decoys can really save you if used properly. Also I don't hesitate to shoot at the destroyers anymore especially when I think I can't escape them. I steam at periscope depth and give them as inviting a target as possible. Wait until they're close, about 500 - 700 metres and let 'em have it with a stern shot, using an electric eel, magnetic impact. They almost always go down with one shot. You can eventually thin out the escort screen one-by-one and hopefully you have enough fuel - and patience - to mop up the convoy. It's very time consuming and you really have to be patient, but it is possible.

And I think you have to resign yourself to the fact that the glory days (the happy times) are over by 1944, so lower tonnage scores are to be expected.

[Txema]

Stiebler,

Ironically, perhaps, the big problem is slipping away *after* the escorts have run out of depthcharges - they do run out eventually, although it often feels like it takes ages. Then you can't escape in the noise of the depthcharges.


Is the noise of the depth charges really modelled in SH3 to make the hydrophones and ASDIC loose contact as it happened in real life???


Txema

[Sir Big Jugs]

God help me, I'm in -39, in Scapa in a Type VIIB and I've got HI of 57%, am in 20m deep with 7 destroyers pinging me!

S O S!:arrgh!:

[Stiebler]

Txema asked:
Is the noise of the depth charges really modelled in SH3 to make the hydrophones and ASDIC loose contact as it happened in real life??? It seems to be, yes. Of course, it's not likely to be the sound that is modelled, but the fact of depthcharges being dropped. Quite a simple equation, depending on how it is implemented. Remember that the time for the depthcharges to fall and explode is already modelled, so the variables are already available for use in the computation.

Stiebler.

[Txema]

Very interesting advise.

Thank you very much for your help !!!


Txema

[Highbury]

God help me, I'm in -39, in Scapa in a Type VIIB and I've got HI of 57%, am in 20m deep with 7 destroyers pinging me!

S O S!:arrgh!:

:huh: bye :dead:

[Eichenlaub]

I tried it out yesterday and I....survived!

I fired several torpedoes at long range between 3000 and 4000 meters, at two T3's, a T2 and a TT. One T3 was sunk after a single hit. The TT was hit as well and apparently sank after I don't know how many minutes - I got the message that it was sinking while evading submerged later on. I did have the event camera turned on, so I saw my T I steam torpedo (it happened to be in the tubes, I've stopped using them now though I still use the T I FaT and occasionally the LuT) hit a T2 tanker right between the bulge of the aftership and the rudder...I knew I'd hit the propulson and she was going to sit there, waiting for me to reappeer eventually and finish the job.

I did wait just a tad too long to dive (I love watching those torpedo runs), forcing me to fire at an oncoming warship. I sank it and neatly dived to 200m. I went silent at 1 knot at that depth in the direction of the convoy's heading. I had meant to await the results of my torpedoes and the escorts' actions. This way, I could opt to go to PD again if the escorts didn't find me the first time and fire again. Two warships were next observed to be converging on my position. I couldn't help being pinged a few times, and changing direction at least 180 degrees, but this time the BOLD may have actually assisted me - that must be a first! I kept waiting for them to ping me again but it never happened. I egressed the convoy at its rear. I then went to PD and searched the area where I had marked that stationary tanker. It wasn't long before my sonarman picked it up. Ironically, she took two more contact torpedoes before she went down, which was surprising considering a T3 and a TT had gone down after a single hit under their keels.

In my next patrol I finally got rid of the TI, but retained the TI FaT since after upgrading to the Type XXI, I no longer have the renown to purchase just any torpedo I want.

In my next patrol I also encountered a convoy. It consisted of about 6 to 8 small targets (CM's, SM's) and 4-5 C2's and a T2, protected by about 5-6 warships. I sank a warship in front of the convoy with a Zaunkönig and approached the merchants head on. This convoy battle was surprising in that only one of the warships actually made an attempt to intercept me after my first torpedo hit. I had to sink that one too - my second Zaunkönig success! I love those TV's! They have missed only once yet. Since no warships made their presence felt, I could set about firing plenty of torpedoes. Eventually I gave up this battle as the risk was increasing. As the convoy moved in my direction, so did the rear escort. Since I apporached the convoy head on, I had to fire a few down-the-throat shots at C2's. Despite the number of torpedoes I fired, I only sank the single T2 and 2 C2's. One C2 had already eaten up 3 torpedoes (at least two had hit her) but she still sped away at 4 knots.
After letting the convoy pass, I went back to PD and chased that final slow C2. She was protected by a lone escort that did something of a "Crazy Ivan" every now and then. Travelling at 9 knots with periscope surfaced I usually spotted instantly when the escort turned towards me. I slowed to 1 knot every time that happened. After completing this cycle 3-4 times, I was finally just ahead of the slow C2. Turning westwards, I got to within 400 meters before firing another torpedo. The escort didn't intervene at all.

That last convoy battle was rarely a battle; it resembled a Turkey shoot. The two escorts that did try to catch me were dealt with by the TV, of which I usually carry two. The others never even bothered. The earlier patrol, for which I enlisted your assistance, was muuuuuch harder. I think I have learnt a bit from this. Next time, I shall try and follow your instructions to the letter and see if I can survive AND score some tonnage.

Anyway, thank you all for helping me out. I'll use the remaining months of the war (it's 11-'44 now) to learn a few more evasion tricks in heavy convoy battles. Hoepfully, that will prepare me for a 100% DID NYGM/GW campaign in Type IX boats...:|\\

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub