About moral

[Rosencrantz]

I don't know if this has allready been discussed, and this is also just minor thing, but:

If crews moral is modelled, I think the value of moral for each crew member should be saved when you have completed your patrol. Then, while in the base, there should be just minor raise in moral, not that is perfect again. So, if a single member has his moral just 50 %, then maybe 55 or 60 % when leaving the base again. Not 80 or 100 % again. This would give some more depth for the crew managament.

-RC-

[Rosencrantz]

And: No wild nights in Pearl for the moral boost. Because, if you are a lousy skipper at sea, there is not enough girls or drinks to get things better with the crew...


-RC-

[Safe-Keeper]

Implement a random chance they'll have to be taken out of the service for severe traumas or physical wounds (particularly if they've gotten wounded, watched a lot of crewmen die, etc. in the trauma case). Would be an interesting feature. In addition, borrow that "random things happening to crew members" thing from SH3 Commander.

Patrol 1:
"Julius Steiner has been arrested for drunkness."

Patrol 6:
"Joe Andrew has been transferred to the HMS Whooper."

Patrol 9:
"Magnus Andersen has been dismissed from active duty due to inflicted wounds."

Patrol 15:
"Archibald Thompson has applied for a transfer to another part of the Armed Forces."

Patrol 18:
"Archibald Thompson has been transferred to the Marine Corps."

Et Cetera.

As for morale at mission start being affected by the morale of the previous mission, I'm not sure of that.

[Grey Legion]

I like your thinking on this topic, I hope the "crew" aspect of the game gets a little deeper, I feel the crew is probably the single most overlooked feature in SH3. So much depth can be added to make the game a complete package. I hope SH4 take a better look at this and adds some features we would all like to see. Non-warfare injuries, illness, man-over-board ( in rough seas ) test-dives and other aspects that a "real" crew would have to deal with alot of things can be simple random acts but othere could be a option, I would even like to see food play a factor, 2 days out and all is good, 22 days out and things are much different, as food decreases so should morale, who wants to eat canned dog food every day !?! no fresh fruit makes for a cranky crew.

I hope this at least gets a thought or two..

[Safe-Keeper]

I actually wanted illness, too, but didn't dare bring it up as I was sure it would be disagreed with. Turns out I was wrong.

Yes, aborting your patrol from your whole crew coming down with the flu would be a story to tell.

Test dives and other drills I'm less sure of. I think they'd get monotone relatively fast, to order a crash dive every now and then just to raise experience. But I really don't know. Hitting "C" and then surfacing a few moments later isn't such a nasty chore. Having relatively frequent drills build experience, having too many reduces crew efficiency ("just another drill") and makes them tired and stressed. Make it like one every second patrol or something (and you should crash dive more frequently than that anyhow, reducing the need:p).

It should all be realism options anyway. And with realism options I don't mean check-boxes in all cases, but sliders or percentage boxes.

Food and spare parts are wanted by a lot of people, including yours truly:).

[Sailor Steve]

Safe-Keeper strikes again! 9 crew-members are showing signs of Tojo's revenge (from eating at the same restaurant in Fremantle). Is that enough for me to order a return to base? Will I look like a coward? Will they get better in a few days? Will more of them come down with it?

I love it!

As to drills, what about a weekly gun-drill? "Now hear this! This is a drill! This is a drill! All hands man your battle stations!". I heard that one enough during my time at sea. Also, that's why the saying is now famous from December 7: "This is no drill!"

[Threadfin]

Can anyone cite any examples of a US fleet boat running out of food on war patrol?

[Grey Legion]

Safe-Keeper strikes again! 9 crew-members are showing signs of Tojo's revenge (from eating at the same restaurant in Fremantle). Is that enough for me to order a return to base? Will I look like a coward? Will they get better in a few days? Will more of them come down with it?

I love it!

As to drills, what about a weekly gun-drill? "Now hear this! This is a drill! This is a drill! All hands man your battle stations!". I heard that one enough during my time at sea. Also, that's why the saying is now famous from December 7: "This is no drill!"

For Drills watch K-19 and see how the crew reacted to all the drills they were doing, morale was at a all time low and that is how accidents happen, also look how the drills helps to keep the crew togehter when the going got tought.

Also food came into factor, I love the part when the cook actually has to tell the captain that the men are hungry !?! yet 90% of the food is now no good.

Spare parts !!! - I love it would it not be amazing to only have so many patches nuts and bolts..amazing simply amazing...

That is the one thing that always holds me back in SH3 I keep starting a new carrer just so I can better manage my crew and such.

the game should come with dice !!

:up:

[DeepSix]

Can anyone cite any examples of a US fleet boat running out of food on war patrol?

Only a few I can think of - maybe four or five - and all of them were special missions (or patrols that got truncated to special missions) to Corregidor to evacuate people. Coming back, the boats were way overcrowded, and food ran short. But after Corregidor fell (and that was pretty early), I can't think of any.

As for sickness, there were a few times (again, four or five) early on where some skippers had serious problems with their entire crews getting sick and seriously harming the boat's overall ability to function (let alone function efficiently) - IIRC all the skippers attributed their problems to potable water. I think the problems were solved by the time the Kleinschmidt distillers were installed (if not sooner).

[Threadfin]

Yep, a 'double crew' is a special case of course. There were several examples of this when a boat ran aground. Darter, Sail-36 and a few others I believe.

Those water cases were believed by some to be the result of chlorine accumulation. When depth charged the tanks would be shaken up and the water would make the crew sick, though evidently that was specualtion and no official cause was determined.

In the general sense I do not think food should play a part in SH4, unless we can have victory cakes made for each sinking :) Maybe on S boats, but running out of food was simply not an issue on US fleet boats in my opinion (with a normal compliment that is) except perhaps in a few isolated cases.

In my opinion morale should be a function mostly of how successful the boat is (a combat insignia pin is a big morale booster) modified by how often or intensely the boat comes under counterattack. Mechanical breakdowns could play a part. A smooth running ship is better than a bucket of bolts for morale. Another morale factor is the base chosen for refit. Submariners were much more happy to go to Pearl or Brisbane than Midway, Saipan or Guam for example.

[Safe-Keeper]

I'd like it if more people consumed foods faster. And took up space.

Like, when you picked up a sailor, refugee, commando, or aviator he actually was represented on the F7 crew management screen (which will hopefully be improved with at least the ability to designate shifts, and preferably the ability to designate preset configurations for myself (saving crew positions)). Maybe wounded (in the case of sailors), most likely unable to do something (in the case of.. Well, everyone, even sailors of surface ships. Medics would be useful, though!), but taking up space, oxygen and food nonetheless. Useless, but otherwise exactly like the others (they had icons, they had stats, etc.). Then, when docking to a ship or dock or whatever, you drag-and-dropped them to it. Plain and simple.

[DeepSix]

...In my opinion morale should be a function mostly of how successful the boat is (a combat insignia pin is a big morale booster) modified by how often or intensely the boat comes under counterattack. Mechanical breakdowns could play a part. A smooth running ship is better than a bucket of bolts for morale. Another morale factor is the base chosen for refit. Submariners were much more happy to go to Pearl or Brisbane than Midway, Saipan or Guam for example.

Yep. Especially if you wind up with a "HOR" boat.:D As a player, even my own morale would go up considerably if I had one and got to the point they were finally hauled out and turned into razor blades.

Fremantle was also good for morale. Lots of girls.:D

[Threadfin]

Yeah, those dreaded H.O.R.s!! Damned Jerries :)

[DeepSix]

...Then, when docking to a ship or dock or whatever, you drag-and-dropped them to it. Plain and simple.

Weelll...

Point taken - I mean, yeah, adequate stores had to be planned in advance so the boat wouldn't run out - but I think that option runs the risk of becoming the "crew management" feature of SH4 - more clicking and dragging. And it wasn't really one of the captain's responsibilities. Can't remember if it was even one of the duties of the XO; IIRC it was handled by the relief crew. But at any rate, I'd prefer to leave on patrol with enough provisions for the patrol and let other things affect morale.

Just my two cents.

[DeepSix]

Yeah, those dreaded H.O.R.s!! Damned Jerries :)

It was a conspiracy, I tell ya!:D

[Safe-Keeper]

I just thought of something - weren't US subs sometimes in base for only one day or so?

In that case, I'd be for morale not going all the way back to 100%, actually. Imagine nearly escaping death, then returning and getting only four days off for repairs before you're going back in. God.

Although it seemed stupid to me first, now I'm actually playing with the idea of things such as charisma affecting crew morale and other features such as that. Ie. a hard officer who drives the crew in his compartment to work faster, but perhaps draining their morale and making them tired faster? Something like that?

[DeepSix]

I just thought of something - weren't US subs sometimes in base for only one day or so?

Early on, yes, especially during the retreat to the Malay Barrier (Java) and then to Australia. Admiral Christie once took a boat back out after 1 day in port - and here the crew had come "home" expecting a good 2 weeks or so of R&R! I think that was Dealey's Harder; will have to look it up. Anyhow, it certainly would affect morale, I think.

In most cases, though, boats and crews got full rest and recuperation. On average, at any given time after Japan's initial successes, 1/3 of all the boats were on station, 1/3 were transiting to or from station, and 1/3 were in port.

Although it seemed stupid to me first, now I'm actually playing with the idea of things such as charisma affecting crew morale and other features such as that. Ie. a hard officer who drives the crew in his compartment to work faster, but perhaps draining their morale and making them tired faster? Something like that?

Yeah - don't know how you'd work out the math to incorporate that though, since charisma is by nature a qualitative rather than quantitative thing. But I agree, skipper ability had a profound affect on crew morale.

[Safe-Keeper]

Yeah - don't know how you'd work out the math to incorporate that though, since charisma is by nature a qualitative rather than quantitative thing. But I agree, skipper ability had a profound affect on crew morale.
Good point. What about breaking it up? Better at increasing/decreasing morale, work rate, etc.?

[DeepSix]

Well, if the sub's skipper was AI, it'd be easy.:D Just assign some skippers (e.g., Dick O'Kane or Ray Lamb) a morale value that would raise or lower crew morale. But since the player's the skipper, I honestly don't know. I don't know how the devs could assign morale values to player actions... although the more ships you sink, the higher I would think morale should be.... Don't know. Skipper impact on morale would be extremely difficult to do well.

[Safe-Keeper]

I was actually thinking of Officer impact on morale. If SH4 will have that system, that is.

[DeepSix]

Oh, I see. Well, Jim Calvert was reputedly the best TDC operator in the Pacific, so I can see how that could translate into a skill that might affect morale. Dick O'Kane was a good exec on Wahoo, but some of the crew thought he was a little crazy, so that might translate as well. That system might work. Tough to come up with reasonable values for each officer, though.... Wonder how they did it for SH3?

[Grey Legion]

No matter what the outcome more crew interaction is needed in any new version of SH. be it drag and drop or if it is done for you ( maybe a option ) I think this would help appeal to a larger groups of game players and of course that in-turn would lead into larger sales and maybe much more future support fo r the SH series.

I for one would like to see much more crew detail but for those who don't it can simply be made a option like auto or manual targeting.

:up:

[Threadfin]

Deepsix, have you read Calvert's book? He must have thought the reader would find detail on the TDC boring. Sub nuts like the guys around here would love that stuff of course. But I must admit to being somewhat disappointed in his book because of the lack of detail (as I percieved it) about the operation and capabilities of the TDC, and especially on Jack, which was a very successful boat (despite the H.O.R.s :) ). Still a fine book in the general sense.

[DeepSix]

Yes, I read it; I loved it and thought he was such a good storyteller. His honesty and sincerity about his experiences were surprising. Reading it, it struck me that it was like listening to a grandfather - less formal and more personal. I think he may have left out a lot of the TDC stuff out of the sense of modesty that almost all veterans acquire with age. As Edward Beach wrote in the foreword:
Here now we read Jim's version of how it happened, told modestly, as it has to be. Nevertheless there is enough between the lines to make it clear that the author and his TDC had an affinity seldom seen. And as Calvert himself says, The writing of memoirs, of whatever time of one's life, is an act of considerable egotism....

But anyhow - I sound like I'm trying to change your mind about the book, but I'm not. To each his own, and I know what you're saying about certain details being left out or skimmed over. For instance, he really doesn't 'fess up to the epic accomplishment of bagging three transports with a "going away" shot at 5,000 yards! As you say, it may have been that he thought casual readers would find it boring. Or maybe he thought that, since others had already written firsthand accounts that discussed the technical stuff in more detail, his should take a different approach. Whatever the reason, I kept getting the feeling that his unspoken words were, "I did my job like everybody else; here's what it was like." And he wrote about it without second-guessing it, or overplaying it, or downplaying it, or apologizing for it, or bragging about it. I think it's a testament to his abilities that, as the youngest and least experienced officer aboard, he was given the TDC operator's job.

I came away with great respect for him. (Can you tell?:D)

[Shadow9216]

How about the qual system being a little more in-depth, and having more of an impact? Just freewheeling here, you guys talk about having illness strike the crew- if your corpsman was well-qual'd he could "heal" them; if not, you cut the patrol short. Historically there were two corpsmen who performed at-sea appendectomies; both sailors survived. The Barb had an officer suffer a heart attack, and rescued several emaciated POWs, all of whom survived thanks to the skill of her "doc".

Gunners, torpedomen, WOs, all could have drastically improved reaction times, skills, etc if properly managed. I realize this was the intent in SH3, so let's carry it to the logical conclusion.

Can you imagine installing radar, yet not having someone skilled enough to use it properly? Repair it, etc?

[Wilko]

Yeah having the crew aspect being more in depth could be fun but I would want it to be a toggle function as for some/alot of people it could end up a PITA and be cause of alot of complaints.

If implemented right I see it as being a very good thing that will add alot of immersion to our patrols and something that will be looked foward to but at the same time there will be those that want to get out there and sink things and just have the Exo take care of things and be the Captain that just issues orders and racks up the tonnage :arrgh!:

[Threadfin]

Deepsix, nice reply mate. Cheers :)

[DeepSix]

Deepsix, nice reply mate. Cheers :) Thanks for putting up with the hero-worship!:) BTW, both Friedman's U.S. Submarines Through 1945 and Roscoe's U.S. Submarine Operations in World War II have lots of juicy info on TDC and tactics in general (if you haven't already read them). Friedman is a little dry, IMO - Roscoe's an easier read.