SHIII Sonar Model

[LoBlo]

Hello. I'm a Dangerous Waters player, but have always been curious about SHIII. Question is: How good is the sonar model of SHIII? Is it pretty complex with sonic layers, convergences zones, "best" sonar depths, sea floor bottom effects, etc? The reason I ask is that something I've always liked about DW is that its sonar model is very complex and even a bit unpredictable (because is made by RL milatary sonar programmers).

Anyone got any opinions on the Sonar model, or even the radar model?

[VoodooPriest]

Hello. I'm a Dangerous Waters player, but have always been curious about SHIII. Question is: How good is the sonar model of SHIII? Is it pretty complex with sonic layers, convergences zones, "best" sonar depths, sea floor bottom effects, etc? The reason I ask is that something I've always liked about DW is that its sonar model is very complex and even a bit unpredictable (because is made by RL milatary sonar programmers).

Anyone got any opinions on the Sonar model, or even the radar model?

Ahem, well...

The truth is, there is no such sophisticated sonar or radar model. As this is a sim about german wwii u-boats, the only thing you have is a hydrophone and a huge round instrument, where you can read the bearing to the target. Later in the war there is some kind of crude active sonar, which also tells you the range to the target. Thats all about it. So no DemoN, no TMA and no narrowband profile analysing. I'm not quite sure if layers are modeled but I honestly doubt it, as the germans in wwii were rather oblivious about those layers benefits. If layers are modeled, they're just there and you won't even know it.

Concerning the radar it's quite the same. You have an oscilloscope with a range scale and a bearing-wheel. If a target is in range on a certain bearing, you will see a spike on the oscilloscope. Thats all about radar in shiii. So no ESM here, exept for some crude radar detectors which will only tell you, that you're being painted by radar. But using the radar is rather suicidal anyway, because the enemy planes will home in on you like bees on honey.

So, what can I say? Although SHIII is quite different from DW, it's a very good game nonetheless. Different perhaps, but really great in other ways. It's just entertaining and exciting to find a convoy, outflank it, sneak in in the dark, pick out the big juicy tubs and try to evade the enemy DC-bombardment.

[Fab]

I agree with VoodooPriest about the sonar being simplistic, I don't agree about the Germans not knowing about the layers. And I'm not sure but I thought that layers were in the game. I know there have been times where at 100 m I was picked up by enemy ASDIC like crazy, but dropping 20 meters stopped them from finding me and letting me sneak away.

I don't know, perhaps they were modded in by Teddy Bär or something. If they're not there, then it sure seems at time that they're modeled.

[VonHelsching]

Regarding the layers, they have been modded into the game by Heimisent, but only through the application SH3Commander.

[Khayman]

I'm not quite sure if layers are modeled but I honestly doubt it, as the germans in wwii were rather oblivious about those layers benefits.

I disagree. The U-Boat Commanders Handbook has a section, no 48 in "Principles of Defence by Means of Sound Location", that deals with differences in temperature and salt content and how such conditions can be bad for sound locating. I don't know how much they used these factors, but they certainly weren't oblivious to them.

[VoodooPriest]

I'm not quite sure if layers are modeled but I honestly doubt it, as the germans in wwii were rather oblivious about those layers benefits.
I disagree. The U-Boat Commanders Handbook has a section, no 48 in "Principles of Defence by Means of Sound Location", that deals with differences in temperature and salt content and how such conditions can be bad for sound locating. I don't know how much they used these factors, but they certainly weren't oblivious to them.
Okay then. I'm not the type who refuses to learn something new. Although I never read this book I know what it is about, so I believe what you're saying is correct (I really should buy a copy somewhere, could be interesting).

But there is still the question, to what degree it is modeled in the game. And I don't think it's a big one.

[Khayman]

But there is still the question, to what degree it is modeled in the game. And I don't think it's a big one.

As far as I'm aware it's not modelled in the game at all, which is why it was necessary to make a mod.

Btw you can get the Handbook on Amazon.com, which was where I got it as Amazon.co.uk only sell it 2nd hand;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0939631210/sr=1-1/qid=1150585238/ref=sr_1_1/102-6475454-1769761?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

[Der Teddy Bar]

I am certain that it is modelled in game.

I also feel that many may be expecting too much from being under a thermal layer.

While they greatly assisted in hiding the u-boat/submarine, they were not an impenertrable layer that made your u-boat invisible or stopped noise from reaching a escort.

[VoodooPriest]

Btw you can get the Handbook on Amazon.com, which was where I got it as Amazon.co.uk only sell it 2nd hand;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0939631210/sr=1-1/qid=1150585238/ref=sr_1_1/102-6475454-1769761?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books

Thanks, but I would need the german version and there's already a queue for it on german amazon...

[tycho102]

Yeah, if you are expecting to be able to run at 8kts under the layer, you are expecting too much from it. The only thing the layer does is protect you from precise active sonar, it doesn't protect you from their hydrophones. In Real Life, in some cases, the enemy wouldn't even get a reflection (i.e. outside the critical angle). In other cases, it would be a hundred yards off your actual position.



In the game, in my experience, the layer completely protects you from active sonar. Race to get under that layer, but after that you want to be moving quiet (~2kts).

[Cerberus]

Yeah, if you are expecting to be able to run at 8kts under the layer, you are expecting too much from it. The only thing the layer does is protect you from precise active sonar, it doesn't protect you from their hydrophones. In Real Life, in some cases, the enemy wouldn't even get a reflection (i.e. outside the critical angle). In other cases, it would be a hundred yards off your actual position.



In the game, in my experience, the layer completely protects you from active sonar. Race to get under that layer, but after that you want to be moving quiet (~2kts).

Question:
How do you know:-
a) If a layer exists.
b) Should a layer exist, what depth is it at.

I don't recall seeing a bathythermagraph on my VIIC.
My medical officer probably has a mercury thermometer, but I'm not going to try & wave that out of the window.

" Bernd. We're going to dive to maximum depth. I want you to stay on the bridge & take accurate temperature readings every 5 metres. Don't lose the thermometer - it's the only one we've got."

[HunterICX]

" Bernd. We're going to dive to maximum depth. I want you to stay on the bridge & take accurate temperature readings every 5 metres. Don't lose the thermometer - it's the only one we've got."

:rotfl: whahahaha....that made me laugh.

[Khayman]

Question:
How do you know:-
a) If a layer exists.
b) Should a layer exist, what depth is it at.

I don't recall seeing a bathythermagraph on my VIIC.

There's a debate on that issue here http://www.uboat.net/forum/read.php?f=20&i=4669&t=4669. One reply has a link to a Navy report on prisoner interrogation that says;

"Salinometer:

An instrument for measuring the salt content of water was in the control room. It was described as a graduated glass tube, about 12 inches in length and tapering toward the top. It was weighted with lead shot and floated in a metal cylinder which had connection with the outside seawater. Some prisoners believed that this instrument could indicate water temperature and density as well as salt content."

It's also noted that a change in trim would indicate a thermocline. Two answers mention the developers of SH3 and Korvettenkapitän Jürgen Oesten saying the use of thermal layers was a myth. In this thread here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/3551047713 it says thermal layers are in the game. So I guess they are.

[Cerberus]

There's a debate on that issue here http://www.uboat.net/forum/read.php?f=20&i=4669&t=4669. One reply has a link to a Navy report on prisoner interrogation that says;

"Salinometer:

An instrument for measuring the salt content of water was in the control room. It was described as a graduated glass tube, about 12 inches in length and tapering toward the top. It was weighted with lead shot and floated in a metal cylinder which had connection with the outside seawater. Some prisoners believed that this instrument could indicate water temperature and density as well as salt content."

It's also noted that a change in trim would indicate a thermocline. Two answers mention the developers of SH3 and Korvettenkapitän Jürgen Oesten saying the use of thermal layers was a myth. In this thread here http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/3551047713 it says thermal layers are in the game. So I guess they are.

I can well understand that any submarine operating near an estuary wants to know about the salinity of the water. The fresh water from a river doesn't mix uniformly with the salt seawater & transiting from a chunk of saltwater to a chunk of fresh water would have the sub plunge downward - maybe hitting the bottom, the reverse could have it popping up like a cork.
Either could ruin your day.
This makes estuaries a poor place to be - except for all that tonnage.

I'm not convinced about using the instrument described to measure water temperature versus depth to the degree of accuracy needed to plot a layer - except in extreme cases.
U Boat captains may have known of the existence of layers, but I doubt if they regularly exploited them.

Then again. I wasn't there.