View Full Version : Things to consider when developing SH4
After Playing long long hours weeks and months, i have gathered all the things in my mind; bon apetité :)
*Everybody is complaining about the crew management but i think it is necessary. It adds a strategic flavor to the game. A U-boat commander is not a guy just looks from the periscope and fires torpedoes. It should be remained and in my point of view, it must be improved in much ways. Fear/Panic factor must be added. For instance some people will not obey orders as they have panicked and stunned. (Close combat model) And does anyone concerns about food supply?:o ;)
*Damage situations should be improved: Flooding must be animated. In crew management screen players should be able to see flooding level and Maybe a compartment must be closed to control flooding etc. Damage control teams must be represented on the submarine map, which compartment they are in and how many people are working with pumps, and how many are struggling with repairs etc.
*Players should be able to move in the entire boat. To see people in action. See damage & flooding in place.
*Please fix the watchman bug next time. He is too lazy to go upstairs again :).
*More of War news, i want to feel that there is a living world around me.
*Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines??:yep: YEAH!!! send those planes to panama!!!
*Give players an option to play more "hollywood style". Give them the option to choose "historical timeline" or "Sci-fi/hollywood" in the options screen. (Jagged alliance model)Shortly, Increase the variety of upgrades. Let them to choose their ammunition for flak, mines for mining missions. The ability to remove deck-gun for room for additional batteries? Experimental weapon and equipment :up: awards for most extraordinary succeses. (Panzer General model)
*Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale in a limited time in a wide range of options spending Renown/prestige points on some activites for motivation.
*Make "transfers" tricky. It should have a backdraw. Loose some crew? Costs renowns? Anyway what renowns are for? There must be better ways of spending renowns. "The ultimate target". Nothing is out of reach in SH3! Create ultimate desires to strive for! Air strike calls? Air supplies?
*And the Most important question on minds: "Do I have an effect on the course of War?" Alternative history possibility. Player must be given the chance to be able to change the course of history. The most important lack of SH3 is the "Player is striving for his little success in a war that is already lost"
I remember There was a game in 1985's or so, it was called "Battle of Britain:Their finest hour". It was the game of my life. You were personally planning the attack on England on a strategic map and you were jumping one of the planes in a group and actually fighting for it. The success of the remaining attacks for that day (it was fulfilled by AI after your mission) was 70% influenced by your attack. if you do good, they do good, if you fail, somehow they were so. There were some percentages of the efficiencies of airfields, factories, railways etc. at the end, and if you were able to drop the percentages to a certain level in a given limited time, you succeeded. (Actually i managed to do that and given a start to the invasion of England..those were the days..) Why not this works for the SH4 ? That will be the real "Career" play!:know:
A little increase of strategic elements of this game makes it flawless, a masterpiece!
Sulikate
06-11-06, 01:52 PM
Some interesting points here. I really like the idea to be able to change the war's course... it woud be a very immersive feature, but I don't know if it is possible:-?
Drebbel
06-11-06, 02:13 PM
Good points Mentat, and you write it with so much enthusiasm, A real nice post !
*Players should be able to move in the entire boat. To see people in action. See damage & flooding in place.
Although this kind of eye candy is always nice I think many people will stop moving around eventually. But maybe it will give us something to do while transitting or waiting foir a prey. Now I think of it, an in-game chess game or checkers in the ward roomwould be nice too (as already posted elswhere by various people)
But a complete 3d sub would certainly be a big selling point !
*Please fix the watchman bug next time. He is too lazy to go upstairs again :).
If they fix all major bugs and forget this one I would already be very happy ! :-)
*More of War news, i want to feel that there is a living world around me.
Yes, give us a radio where we can tune different channels, radio tokyo, radio america, naval stations, etcetera
*Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines??:yep: YEAH!!! send those planes to panama!!!
I hope the dev-team will not do that, it already takes enough effort to make a decent one-sided subsim, let alone a two-sided.
If they want to create two sides than I think they should create a surface opponent, make a Destroyer Command 2
*Give players an option to play more "hollywood style". Give them the option to choose "historical timeline" or "Sci-fi/hollywood" in the options screen.
Maybe a good idea indeed. Have a "realistic traffic" option. If disabled you have double the amount of normal traffice :-)
And include a "beam me to the action" option (also in campaign mode) for the people that just want to have action.
*Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale in a limited time in a wide range of options spending Renown/prestige points on some activites for motivation.
Would love , as a captain, to do some additional training between patrols. Maybe on a training boat, or maybe just reading historical documents explaining systems/tactics/seamanship/etcetera. Of course I hope we have good in-game books, like id-books, a coastal guid (with info and pictures of the coast/land marks/cities, etcetera
Maybe it would be a possibility if we would not start out as captains at all, but as an officer, working our way up to captain
*And the Most important question on minds: "Do I have an effect on the course of War?" Alternative history possibility. Player must be given the chance to be able to change the course of history. The most important lack of SH3 is the "Player is striving for his little success in a war that is already lost"
I would be strongly against this. Totally unbelievable and a huge immersion killer for me. If I could not switch this alternate history off it would be a reason for me not to buy SHIV
But I hope that SHIV will, just as part 1 to 3, not go for alternate history. If SHIV wants to be considered being a simulation the dev-team has no choice here --> Go historical !!
Drebbel
But I hope that SHIV will, just as part 1 to 3, not go for alternate history. If SHIV wants to be considered being a simulation the dev-team has no choice here --> Go historical !!
This I don't agree with in principle. You can simulate harware and tactics without simulating history. Is Falcon 4.0 not a simulator because it portrays a campaign that never really happened? Jane's F-15? Longbow? How about Dangerous Waters?
I can see how some people might feel that singlehandedly changing the entire course of the war would be wrong, but a real dynamic campaign (as opposed to simple spawn tables) would take into account the local forces, replenishment rates, supply, etc so you'd be able to change the local situation (for better or worse) according to your mission performance.
Drebbel
06-11-06, 03:13 PM
You can simulate harware and tactics without simulating history.
Yes you can. But SHIV does not just want to be a Submarine Simulator. It wants to be a Submarine Simulator that Simulates the Pacific Submarine Campaign against the Japs.
Is Falcon 4.0 not a simulator because it portrays a campaign that never really happened?
Remember that SHIV will portray a campaign that DID take place. Of course one can include some inaginary stuff in it. But then just do not name it a WWII pacific sub sim
If you simulate WWII then the least you can do is programm an accurate course of the war.
Althought the war will be won every captian can still, if he does things wrong, be a looser. Just as a captain can be a winner in SHIII
Rosencrantz
06-11-06, 05:46 PM
Hello Mentat!
Fear/Panic factor must be added.
Only time my crew get in the panic is when they hear their captain mention the word "dressdrill". Panic in the boat?!? That's impossible. :nope:
the watchman
What watchman? I suppose you are not talking about "Wachtmeister", who belongs to the hotel, so you must be talking about OOD? Yeah, they are just lazy bast..., but calling officer as "watchman"?!? Jeez... These youngsters... :damn:
Option to be able to choose sides!! YES it will be exciting! Germany or USA? British? or Japan aircraft carrier submarines??
Where did you leave the little green man from Mars? And the neutron bombs? :huh:
Air supplies?
Like "Please, send 60 tons of oil, 20 torpedos and a pizza for the captain. By airmail. USS Gato." :cool:
Let players to spend some time between patrols, put a nightclub in base, let commanders to have some choices to increase their crews morale
Hmm, like: :()1:
I'm just :-j ! No offencive meant! ;)
Wellcome on board, Mentat!
Rosencrantz
06-11-06, 05:59 PM
Drebbel wrote:
or maybe just reading historical documents explaining systems/tactics/seamanship/etcetera. Of course I hope we have good in-game books, like id-books, a coastal guid (with info and pictures of the coast/land marks/cities, etcetera
10 points! :up: :rock:
-RC-
I remember There was a game in 1985's or so, it was called "Battle of Britain:Their finest hour". It was the game of my life. You were personally planning the attack on England on a strategic map and you were jumping one of the planes in a group and actually fighting for it. The success of the remaining attacks for that day (it was fulfilled by AI after your mission) was 70% influenced by your attack. if you do good, they do good, if you fail, somehow they were so. There were some percentages of the efficiencies of airfields, factories, railways etc. at the end, and if you were able to drop the percentages to a certain level in a given limited time, you succeeded. (Actually i managed to do that and given a start to the invasion of England..those were the days..) Why not this works for the SH4 ? That will be the real "Career" play!:know:
A little increase of strategic elements of this game makes it flawless, a masterpiece!
Some good ideas, that have been partially covered in mods but would be great in SHIV.
I strongly disagree wtih the last one...it's akward and unrealistic. Especially the part about the AI does as well or poorly as you. One pilot or sub cannot determine the war. A strategic level game for example, will have AI armies rated historically. You are commanding the Luftwaffe in 1939 and have some of the best trained pilots so you are sure they will do well in the taks you choose for them. In 1944 however, you have a lot of rookies and not enough trained pilots or advanced planes (jets lots of older planes) so you have to deal with that as a General. Sorry it doesn't make sense one person's skill should reflect at the operational or strategic level. This is why most board or computer games stick to one level, and sims are usually at the tactical level.
This is not cut and dried of course, Steel Beasts allows the player to command a brigade IIRC, while you are in your tank as well...and Falcon's campaign provides a great backdrop to your flying. Certainly having war news and the like would provide a backgorund canvas for immersion purposes but I don't agree with changing history.
HunterICX
06-12-06, 10:47 AM
The idea about an Full 3D sub is nice, I would love to see the Diesel Engines Work :up: and that about crewmembers walking through the Sub is also something I would like to see. like your in ur command room and an Repair crew comes to you and tell ''The big ass hole in our nose has been fixed sir''
Commander ''With what?''
Crew: With Bernhard Sir! he put on an Raincoat and uses an Straw to breath and is lying on the Hole sir, Just dont dive too deep''
and to Add something
when you destroyed an Ship I wanna hear the Crew Cheer!
comon sinking an big ship must trigger some Happyness
Some of your points are fair enough. I do disagree with the idea of being able to change the war or, indeed, 'hollywood' it up basically because I find the game a lot less hardcore than I would like already. I definately don't go for the idea of 'alternate history' either. It's something I have never liked in other games and it would probably stop me buying another Silent Hunter title if it ever happened. That is just me, though. I am the King-Geek.
A 'less realism' option is one thing but only if there was a 'full hardcore' option as well..;)
I think Drebbel has made an important point about communications. I would like to be able to monitor international shipping traffic on the radio, not just a few scripted messages but dynamic comms from shipping all over the place. it would help immersion no end.
Thinking though about your first point: I don't think anyone is against the concept of crew management - just the way it has been implimented in the game. It needs an overhaul for sure but it is a major step in the right direction. A full 3d interior would also be very nice.
Also, I was under the imression that there was a game already coming out that uses the Sh3 engine but has you running the naval war at strategic level? I can't remember the name - maybe it was no more than vapour-ware? I'm sure someone else knows what I'm talking about
Gizzmoe
06-12-06, 12:23 PM
Also, I was under the imression that there was a game already coming out that uses the Sh3 engine but has you running the naval war at strategic level? I can't remember the name - maybe it was no more than vapour-ware? I'm sure someone else knows what I'm talking about
Subwolves:
http://www.subwolves.com
Thanks Gizzmoe.That is the one.
I like the the change the watch crews idea,topside,engine rm.,& dive stations. The crew in SHIII are to zombie like,don't even know missing watch is a violation of UCMJ.,& Captain's Mast,is required.USN. discipline required.:up: In SHIV.
ALSO:
Torpedo's do not bounce off thin hulled merchants,if they do not detonate on impact,they punch a hole in the hull,and go off on time out,end of run time,if set to impact.(Real life) Set to magnetic torp.might dent chine,& deflect off in rough seas though,or run under,for a miss.SHCE did not have magnetic detonates,quire? :hmm:
Thanx for your valuable comments.
I knew it would cause lots of reactions to offer an alternative history but hey, i am talking about an "option" here. Relax and keep in mind that there will always be the "historical" option to go for you guys :)
Thanx RLS669 i feel the same way. I am not talking about the <Rambo> or <Doom> here. I dont mean to fight the entire world with a shotgun single handedly. (and bring the victory to Hitler with my bare hands) I just want to feel that "with every single ship i waste, we are closer to win" We dont have it in SH3. If we are talking about a "realistic" simulation, I'm sure U-boat Captains had the same thing on their minds. They hunt in that piece of hell just for victory of their nation. They feel that satisfaction with every single merchant they sunk. If they knew they will loose the war at the end, no one in the earth would concieve them to go for another hunt. :dead:
I would loved to have a pat in my back when i return to base from my commander while examining statistics about how u-boats are efficient, England logistics situation and other achievments on map. Strong zones, weak zones, luftwaffe coverage efficiency etc.
On the other hand, what do we have here? One more merchant for a couple of more renowns to change my... batteries?? and one more for a Flak Zwiling! ... How realistic!
Aint my offer is far more realistic? And Just admit it, you feel an irresistable pleasure for new upgrades and equipment when returning to base. I simply offer you more!
Also i dont think it will be harder to make other nations side to be available? Same game engine, some interior changes, languages change, uniforms and flags will change and different missions and starting base will change. (That is currently made possible with lots of mods already)
And i am completely agree with you donut. The crew is sure like Zombies.
Unfortunately there are instances of luftwaffe transported food, ammunition and mail to submarines in history Rosencrantz. Yet ı dont know how they kept pizzas hot all the way along.:rotfl:
And more suggestions:
*I dont want to see just an office while in base. I want to be able to go nightclub, chat with other captains, go to pens and watch the progress (animated) while my boat is being repaired/upgraded. imagine lots of people on her some welding, some directing a crane, torpedoes loaded! This game needs lots of eye candy for sure!:|\\
*I want to see aircraft pumping steel to submarines! They just drop a DC and run away! Its no different than shooting birds out there. I never deal with wounded on deck. Also it must be made possible to have disasters in rough waters. Men wounded on deck, man fell in sea! etc.:ping:
*Does anyone noticed, in english crew language, nobody shouts ALARM when crash dive ordered?! (Its happening in German tough)
*Museum must be improved. It is much primitive as it is currently.
*Recognition manual: Shouldnt it include armaments and stuff like that also?
*Unable to touch anything in command room pisses me off!
*What happened to release some oil, some clothes and wood pieces through a torpedo tube to surface to fool destroyers while lying silent in deep?
*Morale is nothing to consider? What is it for in SH3? More stats of seaman in SH4 required.
Drebbel
06-12-06, 02:28 PM
*What happened to release some oil, some clothes and wood pieces through a torpedo tube to surface to fool destroyers while lying silent in deep?
Oh NO, not that discussion again :lol:
Unfortunately there are instances of luftwaffe transported food, ammunition and mail to submarines in history Rosencrantz.
It is the first time I have heard of it. I'd be interested in hearing more about it. Do you have a source?
The Morale in the the game is broken to a certain extent. Although it is fixed in the NYGM 2.0 mod.
@MENTAT Sir
*Unable to touch anything in command room pisses me off!
If you put your courser on a switch,or instrument,& it turns red,you have touched it,and it works.Among many other things,you can select tubes ,& fire torps from WO station. :|\\ :rock:In the comand room,try Engine telegraph,I recall it works also
jorgeneo560
06-12-06, 07:32 PM
i haven´t reed al the post, are to many:cool:.
But the lite post i have read only have grafics and 3d efects.
But one of the most important´s thing in a game is the history, all sh edtions are of the second war, the war is over man!!! is litte boring (and i am starting to hate the diesel submarines!!!!), i think that a new history i will make much better, something about cold war, or an alternative history.
It will have a lots of new technologies,new submarines (with nuclear reactor inside), torpedos that could have travel to more of 60knts, nuclear missels please:arrgh!:!!.
Drebbel
06-13-06, 12:17 AM
i haven´t reed al the post, are to many:cool:.
But the lite post i have read only have grafics and 3d efects.
But one of the most important´s thing in a game is the history, all sh edtions are of the second war, the war is over man!!! is litte boring (and i am starting to hate the diesel submarines!!!!), i think that a new history i will make much better, something about cold war, or an alternative history.
It will have a lots of new technologies,new submarines (with nuclear reactor inside), torpedos that could have travel to more of 60knts, nuclear missels please:arrgh!:!!.
Please visit this Dangerous Waters forum, lots of modern fast subs with nuke drive there. But be aware: There are many posts there. I hope that does not confuse you.
This is the link to that forum --> http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=181
Drebbel
It is the first time I have heard of it. I'd be interested in hearing more about it. Do you have a source?
Egan, please find my source in the below:
<Herzog, Bodo. Die deutschen U-Boote 1906-1945. Munich: J.F. Lehmanns
Verlag, 1959. Copyright: J.F. Lehmanns Verlag, Munich, 1959.>
In the section titled “Cooperation Between Aircraft and U-boats” (Page
171) there is a photo of U-255 and the BV-138 together.
The photo is taken from a distance and you can’t see exactly what’s going
on however on page 213 there is a better picture and you can see what
appears to be a fuel hose being played out by the U-boat.
Back on page 171 there is also an intriguing photo of a WWI U-boat S.M.
U-12 with seaplane 204 apparently sitting on its deck!
I have placed photos (and an illustration) related to airsupply to rapidshare server which you can find the link below:
http://rapidshare.de/files/23019651/airsupply.rar.html
Onkel Neal
06-14-06, 04:01 AM
*Everybody is complaining about the crew management but i think it is necessary. It adds a strategic flavor to the game.
I agree 100% A commander has to be aware of his crew, will be nice to see this feature in a US subsim.
*Players should be able to move in the entire boat. To see people in action.
Yep, that would be nice. It would be great if SH4 can add a new compartment, say the engine room or forward torpedo room. Maybe the crew's quarters, where you get yelled at if you make to much noise...:ping:
*More of War news, i want to feel that there is a living world around me.
Yeah, the only real criticism I had of SH3, not enough radio messages, war news, other U-boats radio traffic. That game Aces a great flavor. Was really cool/ disturbing when the other U-boats would report their successes or when they would send distress calls that they were sinking.
*Give players an option to play more "hollywood style". Give them the option to choose "historical timeline" or "Sci-fi/hollywood" in the options screen. (Jagged alliance model)Shortly, Increase the variety of upgrades. Let them to choose their ammunition for flak, mines for mining missions. The ability to remove deck-gun for room for additional batteries? Experimental weapon and equipment :up: awards for most extraordinary succeses. (Panzer General model)
Disagree here, I would not want the dev team to spend any time on Hollywood style. There is always a game called Steel Tide for that.
I remember There was a game in 1985's or so, it was called "Battle of Britain:Their finest hour". It was the game of my life. You were personally planning the attack on England on a strategic map and you were jumping one of the planes in a group and actually fighting for it.
Well, Silent Hunter is supposed to be a first-person subsim, not a strategy game at all. I want to be the captain of a sub, not the admiral.
Good comments.
Howdy Onkel, Ck.my post 5 back On crew management. Did you get VDMSound working,for running SHCE :lol: Please get SHIV. A copy on Crew Management Post
TreverSlyFox
06-14-06, 05:43 AM
I'm gona jump in here on Crew Management. Yes I think it's necessary, but NOT the way it's implemented in SHIII. The Captain doesn't move each man to his station and back. He may well sit down with his CPO's and set up the rotation. He may well save his best sonar man for when he really needs him, but moving each man to station and back to his rack is just nuts.
If anything he's comming up with stuff to improve moral in his crew and fight boredom. Did he choose to take along cards, chess set, maybe some Extra bottles of wine in his cabin before they left port. Did he make sure his Supply CPO he has on his crew has the "scrounger ability" so he could get things that couldn't be gotten other ways? What abilities did he make sure his Cook had?
Did the Captain make contact with the Black Market operations in his home port before they left through his Supply CPO? Were there times he had to arbatrate in crew matters? How about times crew members came to him for advice. How about the time he had to hold a Captain's Mast at sea, how does it affect the rest of the crew?
There are many things a Captain WOULD DO that affected his crew that could easily be moldeled into the game. But moving each man back and forth isn't one of them.
Sailor Steve
06-14-06, 10:55 AM
I used to play Their Finest Hour on my Atari. I liked it, since it was the first game I played in which you could write your own missions. I think, however, that the 'influence the outcome' part was very poorly done. Every single time I played that campaign as a German the Germans won. Couldn't miss, couldn't lose.
I would rather not see that kind of option in SHIV, even if it were done right.
Aye steve, it was poor yet it was fun. I just pointed out just to guide designers. For just a brain storm.
Anyway i still insist that players must feel that they play some part in the victory or defeat . Aint the running, motivating gear behind the military engine is that?
Drebbel
06-15-06, 06:43 AM
Anyway i still insist that players must feel that they play some part in the victory or defeat . Aint the running, motivating gear behind the military engine is that?
When I sink a ship I feel victory, does not matter if we are loosing the whole war or not.
is that what you feel when you were playing a game? or is that what you are going to feel when you are in the battlefield yourself?
A Simulation is the imitation of the reality which is supposed to make you feel as if you were in that situation as real as it is possible.. is it not?
So when you are in the middle of a war by yourself, it does make difference if you are on the winning side or the losing one. And i am sure all your efforts will be to carry your side to the winning side.
Conclusion: A simulation should be bearing this feeling in the name of increasing realism. Anyway everybody is complaining about one man show battles as rambo, or doom , you against the whole world. And victory is yours no matter what, yours only. Eventually, The existance of your mates in your couse is an essentiality.:dead:
DeepSix
06-15-06, 08:55 AM
...A Simulation is the imitation of the reality which is supposed to make you feel as if you were in that situation as real as it is possible.. is it not?
....
Yes, and the reality is that Japan lost.:D Any other outcome for Silent Hunter IV would make it less of a simulation and more of a game. For a good looking game in which you can alter history, you might like Pacific Storm.... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94493
Drebbel
06-15-06, 09:41 AM
is that what you feel when you were playing a game?[quote]
Yes ofcourse, gamimh is what we are talking about, right ?
[quote]or is that what you are going to feel when you are in the battlefield yourself?[quote]
probably not. But be honest, no one is gonna buy a sim that gives you the same feeling as when you where in a battle field. Thats why we all try to avoid war in real life :know:
[QUOTE]A Simulation is the imitation of the reality which is supposed to make you feel as if you were in that situation as real as it is possible.. is it not?
To be honest: NO . I want the simulation to be fun and balanced, that is more important than realism. You want 100% realism ---> Join the navy :D
So when you are in the middle of a war by yourself, it does make difference if you are on the winning side or the losing one. And i am sure all your efforts will be to carry your side to the winning side.
Yes of course, but when in a specific fire fight I would not care about the war, I would be focussed on that battle, winning it, surviving it myself, not for a second I would be worried about the big picture. The whole war/big picture is for the generals and admirals.
Conclusion: A simulation should be bearing this feeling in the name of increasing realism.
No, it should not in my opinion.
Lionman
06-30-06, 11:17 AM
I'm gona jump in here on Crew Management. . . . .etc
There are many things a Captain WOULD DO that affected his crew that could easily be moldeled into the game. But moving each man back and forth isn't one of them.
I totally agree! Add immersive bells and whistles to the captain (players role) but not tedious and unrealistic micro-management.
Lionman
06-30-06, 03:58 PM
I agree with the whole feel of MENTAT's first post in this thread. I want to believe I am really there. There HAS been a combat simulation game that managed to achieve this wonderfully. B 17 The Mighty 8th. Animated crew members, the ability to help and heal injured crewmen who cried out when injured and prayed and mumbled, take over their gun or role. Limping home in a badly damaged B-17, two engines gone, smoking from the others, three crewmen dead, two badly injured, one wheel down, resisting the impulse to parachute out before landing - super immersive stuff. So immersive in fact that when I made the mistake of naming all the crew with my friend's names and lost the bomber and all hands over Hannover it upset me for days. That game was many years ago and already had higher levels of realism inside a multi-crewed B-17 than anything we have yet seen in submarine simulation. But it is still so excellent that I have it on my HD and play it sometimes. It's one failing was that it had no multiplayer but if they republished it, unchanged but for the addition of multi-crewed multiplayer co-op online it would once again be a best-seller overnight. Why? Because it had immersion, atmosphere, unbelivably realistic sound, a strategic and detailed crew-management level, enormous emotional immersion and SOUL. You even had to send letters to families about casualties if you elected to play the command level. You really believed in-game that "you were there" and identified with your plane and crew.
THAT is and always will be the sign of a truly great simulation, an utterly convincing and immersive virtuality. Another fine current example is the WW2 FPS Red Orchestra.
I'm with you MENTAT. I want to see dynamic flooding inside the sub, cracked guages, spurting broken pipes, steam, smoke, fire, to have to seal watertight doors (sometimes on screaming crew) to save the vessel and to hear the real sounds of war, not a silent empty world. I want dripping overhead pipes, dribbling condensation and to have to wade through flooded compartments maybe carrying a hand held torch, looking for crew men and damage. I want to have to deal with the psychological dimension of this most atmospheric and stressfull of realm of sub-sea ocean combat, I want to have to calm a shattered and upset crew as real submarine commanders had to. That means some form of interaction with the virtual crew, a challenging thing to model but feasible and surely worth trying if they could manage it in B-17 almost a decade ago! Expect more of the developers guys, they CAN do it if they really try. Others already have. Submarine warfare is NOT a matter of sitting calmly at a table calculating torpedo solutions while smoking your pipe and watching a couple of guages. It is a dirty, sweaty, uncomfortable, smelly, atmospheric, noisy, crowded, claustrophobic, wet, intimate, messy, dark and confusing realm. The deck moves and sways under you, the lights flicker, condensation runs off everything, your maps get dirty and stained, ink messages get blurred, radio messages tune in and out, records stick and repeat. It is absolutely nothing remotely like the calm and ordered world of the "anti-eye-candy" brigade who see it mainly as a matter of calculations and slide rules. Much more like the inside of a bomber under fire and flack.
The one major failure of all Oleg Maddox otherwise brilliant WW2 air combat sims to date, is empty cockpits and no legs when you look down at your own joystick and pedals and that small detail ruins the immersion for me. It makes me feel as if I am flying a model aircraft by remote control through an in-cockpit camera rather than sitting in a real aircraft. Considering the staggering amount of work on accuracy that Oleg's team put into these programs, including testing all flight models with real (very aged) WW2 pilots, leaving out something so fundamental as the pilots own body, is almost criminal. I suspect the "anti-eye-candy" thing was the excuse. Whatever the reason it was a dumb thing to leave out. Compare it with Lock-On where you can almost read the map in the transparent coverall pocket on your thigh as you fly!
One day we WILL have the smells too in simulations and that will jerk things forward a whole dimension. There is nothing quite like the smell of cordite, the metallic smell of fresh blood, the sickly stench of days old death, the exhaust fug from a tank's engines, the smell of corn as you crawl through long grass and the odd smell of electricity from sparking and broken live cables to put you THERE right IN the virtuality and that day will come online I promise you.
(I kid you not, somebody invented a prototype device for doing this online at least 10 years ago. A dispenser/mixer with 12 "primary spectrum smells" that could be mixed in proportions determined by a digital signal to approximately simulate any odour, just like colour mixing. An add-on hardware item like Track-IR. Of course the anti-immersion crowd will still whine about it using "unnecessary CPU cycles." LOL)
Gee thanks Lionman, it was an absolute morale boost for me:cool:
Safe-Keeper
07-03-06, 10:23 AM
My take on crew management (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=94941). In short, leave the Silent Hunter III system (improve it by for example allowing the player to drag boxes around several crew-members), but also implement shifts so that crew-members are automatically going to their bunks and being replaced, just like in reality. Also, allow configurable stations ("Battle Stations", "Stealth", etc.) with so and so many crew members (or specific crew members) in each compartment. Something like: "Any 8 sailors and Tim Johnson in Forward Torpedo Room".
Survivors in the water: Implement an option to turn them off and a lot of people will be happy. Fine, you want them (as do I), but not everyone does. And don't let players shoot them or run them down. It's a waste of CPU power as it's childish, morbid, and silly andUS subs didn't do it (or at least weren't supposed to -it probably might have happened, I don't know). It's akin to asking for the ability to gun down your own crew or the crowd cheering for you back at base.
Of course the anti-immersion crowd will still whine about it using "unnecessary CPU cycles." LOL)It'd be nice if you could stop attacking people who disagreed with you. Just that we don't agree with your views on what immersion is doesn't make us "anti-immersion people". Grow up.
stinger503
07-08-06, 01:41 AM
The change the war idea isn't as hard as most of you guys seem to think. But there has to be good friendly A.I. that moves around in the ocean and respond to you and other A.I.s For example (say I'm Japan)-
I decide to stray off my path on the way to area K-39, the I-63 seeing this heads north (which historically wouldn't have happened), he sinks 2 ships and I sink 5 ships (which wouldn't have happened again) and they only had 9 ships heading to New Gueinea that patrol... so in the news broadcast we hear that the Japanese have had victories in New Guinea. But in our next patrol the I-63 gets sunk and I only kill 2 of the 15 ships going to N.G., so we hear that the Japanese have lost New Guinea.
Basically what you're saying is if I were to kill half the American fleet, nothing would happen? I've heard people complain in these forums that after getting huge tonnage, all they get is a badge. Oh and to those who say that one man can't change a war. Look at Hitler...he started one! ;)
Drebbel
07-08-06, 05:37 AM
Basically what you're saying is if I were to kill half the American fleet, nothing would happen?
You kill half the US fleet ?
Remember , this is a sumulation, no man can kill half the US fleet ! :arrgh!:
NEON DEON
07-08-06, 10:58 AM
Hi Stinger,
Well I am with you there. If you kill half the American fleet traveling to New Guiena, I think you should get a cut scene showing your victory at least. In TF 1942 when you won a major battle, You would get an old time war newsreel showing the victory. It was all scratched and grainy and gave you a feeling of accomplishment.
In Microprose's "Red Storm Rising" when you won a victory, You got a cut scene turning the war in your favor. So you actually turned the course of the war. I would not mind seeing a watered down version of that but IMHO I think One I boat changing who wins the war would be stretching it a bit.
On the other hand. If the fleets were modeled, and you managed to sink the Enterprise and Yorktown before or during the battle of Midway. Then you might stop the war right there if you believe the Americans would have accepted peace at that point.
Any later than Midway you pretty much have to concede it to the Americans.
Safe-Keeper
07-08-06, 01:12 PM
Well I am with you there. If you kill half the American fleet traveling to New Guiena, I think you should get a cut scene showing your victory at least.Or, seeing you're playing as the Americans, a cutscene showing your court-martial and execution:p.
I really don't know about changing the war, to be honest. Except for one thing: I don't want to encounter a ship I've already sunk. If I sink the Kaga, she's sunk. I won't want to meet her again in that career.
I think a submarine can do much better than an infantry to change the course of the war. One of the best examples is the HMS Royal Ark sunk by a U-boat in the north sea.
We are not playing rambo here, or a doom, shooting everyone we encounter with a shotgun in the hand.. But sinking a carrier is something and surely can change the course of the war.
I agree with Neon here, they could have sunk enterprice and/or yorktown around pearl harbor As they were a little north to hawai (making drills or something) when the attack was made and remember there were tons of Japan subs around hawai at that time.
Maybe It was also a turning point in the course of history and war.
No Single Ship Contacts on the Navigation Map!!! We should be surprised by those single ships as the real Captains were. (Read a WWII Biography and you will see, I'm not going to debate it)
The Navigation Map should only show Task Forces, and Convoys. (Although Japan did not have large Convoys). The real captains received reports on Task Forces and Convoys, not single little ships.
Subnuts
07-13-06, 02:04 PM
No Single Ship Contacts on the Navigation Map!!! We should be surprised by those single ships as the real Captains were. (Read a WWII Biography and you will see, I'm not going to debate it)
The Navigation Map should only show Task Forces, and Convoys. (Although Japan did not have large Convoys). The real captains received reports on Task Forces and Convoys, not single little ships.
During the second half of the war American submarines would often receive Ultra reports on important single ships, usually damaged warships, large oil tankers, and ships carrying important persons or material. So no, there's nothing wrong with seeing the occasional single ship contact on the Nav map.
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