USS Jimmy Carter

[SmokinTep]

Well, made it out here with my crew to beautiful Bangor Washington. Am doing an assessment visit on her for 2 weeks berfore her deployment. What an awesome boat. The CO is Capt Kelso, some of you may remember his Dad was CNO during the Tailhook incident.

[Yahoshua]

Sink the bastard........Jimmy Carter pardoned "Slick Willy" while he was still a FELON!!

[Onkel Neal]

Pictures! We demand pictures! :sunny:

[Sea Demon]

Sink the bastard........Jimmy Carter pardoned "Slick Willy" while he was still a FELON!!
Ahem. Rename the Bastid. No need to dispose of such a great submarine when you could just call her something else. I totally agree, Jimmah' definitely doesn't deserve the honor.

Edited to add: I second the call for pics. :)

[Subnuts]

I can't believe they named a submarine after a former submariner! :o

[TLAM Strike]

I can't believe they named a submarine after a former submariner! :o Ironicly isn't that what Destroyers and Frigates are for? :hmm: :D

[Yahoshua]

Ok ok, so maybe I'm a little extreme and certifiably insane...re-name the boat.

I say we name it the USSN Benton. (just pulled a name out of thin air)

[Subnuts]

I don't know about you guys, but if I was onboard an enemy ship and I knew I was being hunted by a sub named after history's greatest monster, I'd arm the scuttling charges and die like a man.

[TLAM Strike]

Face it people any former US President that served in the US Military in the last 50 years needs to have a ship named after him. He may have made some poor choices as an elected official but he volunteered to defend his nation at one point (and volunteered for one of the most dangorous duties in the USN), and he won the Nobel Prize and spends his remaining days building homes for the poor. I think that makes up for four years of mediocre leadership. They named SSN 23 for the man not the office. :yep:

Think of it this way if you had to invite one living former (or current) US President over for a weekend BBQ who would you pick? (... ya know that would make a good poll...) :hmm:

[DeepSix]

:yep: Pictures please!

[August]

Hey you guys lay off JC. Jimmy Carter was a good decent man who, as president, was overwhelmed by the events of the times. Whatever you may say about his abilities as president, his honor, courage and patriotism are beyond question. Besides, one only has to look at the candidates in the 76 election to see that, for all his faults, Carter was indeed the best choice at the time.

As for "pardoning Slick Willy", Yahoshua, what the heck are you talking about? Slick Willy is the nick name for Bill Clinton who served as president 12 years after Carter left office. Carter could not have pardoned him, nor did he pardon "Tricky Dick" Nixon. That little act was performed by Gerald Ford, Carters predecessor and GOP opponent in the 76 election.

[TLAM Strike]

As for "pardoning Slick Willy", Yahoshua, what the heck are you talking about? Slick Willy is the nick name for Bill Clinton who served as president 12 years after Carter left office. Carter could not have pardoned him, nor did he pardon "Tricky Dick" Nixon. That little act was performed by Gerald Ford, Carters predecessor and GOP opponent in the 76 election. he is talking about the Pardoning of Vietnam Draft Dodgers.

[August]

he is talking about the Pardoning of Vietnam Draft Dodgers.

Really? How do you get that from "slick willy"?

[TLAM Strike]

Really? How do you get that from "slick willy"? Its been clamed that he dodged the draft.

[Yahoshua]

Google Slick WIllys' history.

None of the accusations were ever denied by him, yet he ran for governor while he was still a felon. And I'm still fuming at him for the AWB.....hurt alot of local economies.

[Sea Demon]

Hey you guys lay off JC. Jimmy Carter was a good decent man who, as president, was overwhelmed by the events of the times.

Nope. Sorry, no can do. I call em' like I see em'. It's no wonder why the country rejected him by such a large margin after his only four years in office. Carter? decent? Nah. Today, Jimmy Carter undermines U.S. foreign policy and the nation at large on an every day basis. This guy continually trivializes the mission of US service men and women and directly helps insurgent enemies by repeating fallacious propaganda as fact, from sources such as Al-Jazeera. Jimmy Carter helped the North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il acquire light-water nuclear reactors if they promised not to make nuclear weapons. This fool claimed he was "friendship-building". Please don't tell me you think he's smart. Jimmy basically got hoodwinked. And Jimmy's ignorance brought even more instability to that region and may have directly jeapardized our entire national security. Definitely the Japanese and their national security. Jimmy Carter makes friends with the likes of Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, the late Yasser Arafat, etc. And have you heard some of the stuff he says when he's in their presence?!?!?!

Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal with absolutely no benefit to the USA. This waterway was a key national security asset. And because of Carter...our ability to shift key equipment and naval assets rapidly from one ocean to the other has been greatly diminished. That hurts our national security priorities.

And if you only care about domestic issues, and not about national security, don't you just miss the 21% inflation, high unemployment, gas lines, and incredibly low growth rates? Misery Index anyone? For those who may remember?

Because of these things, Mr. Carter does not deserve a submarine named after him. Actually if you want to name a sub after him you should call it the USS Appeaser for the way he likes to deal with terrorists and human rights abusing dictators.

[XabbaRus]

Interesting.

Hang on didn't GWB dodge the draft?

Seems Carter wanted peace not war and went about it in a different way. Teh stuff I have read about him seems to me he is a decent man.

[Umfuld]

I call em' like I see em'.


That way of thinking works better with your eyes actually open. But whatever you gotta tell yourself.

[Sea Demon]

That way of thinking works better with your eyes actually open. But whatever you gotta tell yourself.

Well, the only problem is he actually does and did the things listed. And his domestic record is actually what I listed.

And wanting peace is one thing. But as we've seen throughout history, appeasement only emboldens tyrants, dictators, and terrorists. Jimmy never opened his eyes to that reality.

[Umfuld]

You guys remind me of those idiots who wanted to arrest the cast of Archie Bunker for helping the Viet Cong.

Hi. Welcome to America. Most of us here aren't sexually aroused by the thought of war.

Believe it or not.

[CB..]

and if Carter's attempt to free the hostages hadn't ended up in disaster
what then --

[Sea Demon]

You guys remind me of those idiots who wanted to arrest the cast of Archie Bunker for helping the Viet Cong.

Hi. Welcome to America. Most of us here aren't sexually aroused by the thought of war.

Believe it or not.

Who mentioned that they were aroused by the thought of war?!?!?:hmm: I've re-read this topic and haven't seen anyone glorifying war in any way. I've only mentioned how Jimmy Carter has totally undermined us and continues to do so, and you talk of sexual arousal?!?!

Maybe you need to get out more......or get a girlfriend or something.:88) J/K

[TLAM Strike]

Interesting.

Hang on didn't GWB dodge the draft? No GWB joined the Air National Guard.

[LoBlo]

Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal with absolutely no benefit to the USA. This waterway was a key national security asset. And because of Carter...our ability to shift key equipment and naval assets rapidly from one ocean to the other has been greatly diminished. That hurts our national security priorities.

Not really, the size of current US Navy ships outgrew the Canal decades ago. It was useful during early stages of the navy when ships had smaller displacements but whenever sizes and dimensions started to grow toward their current sizes the waterway quickly became insufficient iirc Its one of the reasons why the US now sustains sperate Atlantic and Pacific fleets, iirc

I'll never slam on someone that's won a Nobel Peace Prize. You won't accomplish 1/10th of what he's accomplished in your lifetime.

[Bort]

Hey you guys lay off JC. Jimmy Carter was a good decent man who, as president, was overwhelmed by the events of the times. Whatever you may say about his abilities as president, his honor, courage and patriotism are beyond question. Besides, one only has to look at the candidates in the 76 election to see that, for all his faults, Carter was indeed the best choice at the time.

Bravo! Couldn't have said it better myself, August. While I personally find the current practice of naming ships after living people abhorrent, if that is what we're gonna do, than Mr. Carter deserves the honor just as much as anyone else. I hate it when people demonize Carter like he was the liberal equivalent of Hitler or something, he was well meaning, actually had some pretty good ideas, and was as honest and moral as can be. Do I disagree with some of the decisions he made, of course, but that should not lead to ragging on someone who is by all means a great American. Plus, he was a bubblehead, give him some credit!:up: :arrgh!:

[August]

and if Carter's attempt to free the hostages hadn't ended up in disaster
what then --

Exactly. He'd have been a shoe in for a two term president and remembered as the guy who pulled the country out of the malaise of the late 70s into the economic boom of the 80s.

[August]

* Bort']Bravo! Couldn't have said it better myself, August. While I personally find the current practice of naming ships after living people abhorrent, if that is what we're gonna do, than Mr. Carter deserves the honor just as much as anyone else. I hate it when people demonize Carter like he was the liberal equivalent of Hitler or something, he was well meaning, actually had some pretty good ideas, and was as honest and moral as can be. Do I disagree with some of the decisions he made, of course, but that should not lead to ragging on someone who is by all means a great American. Plus, he was a bubblehead, give him some credit!:up: :arrgh!:

What i think many people, especially Europeans, don't realize is the power of the US Presidency is far less encompassing than they think. The real power is, and has always been, the Congress. They're the ones who really set the national policy. They're the ones who pass laws, they're the ones who hold the national purse strings. The President is more a lightening rod and a goad for their actions.

[DeepSix]

What i think many people, especially Europeans, don't realize is the power of the US Presidency is far less encompassing than they think. The real power is, and has always been, the Congress. They're the ones who really set the national policy. They're the ones who pass laws, they're the ones who hold the national purse strings. The President is more a lightening rod and a goad for their actions.

Right on. There is real power in the presidency, but most of American life and law is characterized by the actions of Congress - and over multiple decades, not a single administration (or even two).

[XabbaRus]

No GWB joined the Air National Guard.

But wasn't that so he could dodge being sent to Nam....same with Dick Cheney didn't he avoid going somehow.

About draft dodging I find American's attitudes to it interesting. On the one hand I can understand it cos many did draft and get killed but on the other hand Vietnam was a horrific war and trying to dodge the draft the sanest thing out. Just like in Russia, many dodge the draft cos they don't want to end up dead in Checnya or beaten to a pulp by their superiors...they aren't villified.

Maybe I have missed something though. What would your opinion be of someone who honestly said "I dodged the draft cos I did't want to go to Nam." ?

[TLAM Strike]

But wasn't that so he could dodge being sent to Nam.... He could have been sent to Vietnam. Although he was assigned to fly interceptors (F-102 Delta Daggers) and aircraft of that type were sent to Vietnam as a guardsman he was less likely to be sent to war since back then the National Guard was a rearguard type unit, do you think its wise to send less trained guardsmen pilots in to combat guarding B-52s and defending agaist Il-28 raids? My dad joined the US Navy durring the Vietnam War and was assigned to a non-combat role stateside, does that mean he dodged the draft/Vietnam Service? :hmm:

[August]

But wasn't that so he could dodge being sent to Nam..

If it was, it sure was a poor choice of safe berths. A fighter pilot is an inherently dangerous and demanding job. One would think a much softer berth could be arranged if that was the real intention.

[scandium]

If it was, it sure was a poor choice of safe berths. A fighter pilot is an inherently dangerous and demanding job. One would think a much softer berth could be arranged if that was the real intention.
Seems kind of hard to top being posted to a "champagne unit" stateside when the alternative is combat in Vietnam. From Wiki:

"Champagne unit is a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) term used to describe US Military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Military) units that had been staffed by celebrities or people from wealthy or politically powerful families. Such units were often part of the National Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Guard), and assigned to lower-risk duty inside the United States. The connotation is that such units were havens for those with connections who wish to avoid conscription (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription) into more dangerous duty while still gaining the prestige afforded in the United States to military service.

During the Vietnam war, service in the National Guard or military reserves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_reserves) was seen as a way to avoid combat. Although some number of Guard units were in fact "called-up" to combat duty in every conflict since World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I), the risk was especially low in the 1970s. Only 8700 Guardsmen were sent to Vietnam, 0.3% of the personnel who served.

Commenting on this disparity, General Colin Powell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Powell) wrote in his autobiography, "I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed and many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us) managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_unit

[August]

Seems kind of hard to top being posted to a "champagne unit" stateside when the alternative is combat in Vietnam.

My point to you is there is nothing easy about being a fighter pilot regardless of where one is stationed. First it's tough to get qualified. What's it, maybe 1 in a hundred, military pilots get to fly fighters? It's also dangerous. Piloting a fighter is an inherently dangerous job.

That's like saying certain sub duty is a champagne job. Sorry just not true.

[Yahoshua]

The champagne units are certainly an unfortunate strain that exists in the U.S. military service.

But at least there are some celebrities who had the balls to go out and fight (like that football player, Pat something....I unfortunately don't remember his name).

[TLAM Strike]

But at least there are some celebrities who had the balls to go out and fight (like that football player, Pat something....I unfortunately don't remember his name). Pat Tillman.

[mapuc]

As Requested

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/9565/750pxssn23seatrails6xm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/4016/jimmycarterfront4ad.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Enjoy

Markus

[scandium]

My point to you is there is nothing easy about being a fighter pilot regardless of where one is stationed. First it's tough to get qualified. What's it, maybe 1 in a hundred, military pilots get to fly fighters? It's also dangerous. Piloting a fighter is an inherently dangerous job.

That's like saying certain sub duty is a champagne job. Sorry just not true.

Nobody's saying it isn't difficult or that it isn't dangerous. But flying airplanes over Texas isn't the same thing as getting shot at in Vietnam. And a lot of people who didn't want to get sent to Vietnam joined the National Guard (others decided to move to Canada) instead, where only 0.3% of personnel were deployed there. Some of them were also fortunate enough to get posted to the kind of "Champagne Unit" that Bush served in. Bush's own interest in defending Texas' skies also seemed to come about at around the same time he became eligible for the draft, but maybe that was a coincidence.

In any case I'm not judging the guy as that was a harsh choice for anyone to have to make.

[TLAM Strike]

I think some here are forgeting just how big the US Military was back then. GWB could have joined the regular Air Force got assigned to a fighter outfit and still have been assigned stateside duty rather than overseas deployment. My dad served as a storekeeper (he wanted to be a Gunner's Mate but the recruiter told him he shouldn't) for two navy Attack Squadrons for nearly 5 years and neather were deployed overseas durring his time with them. Did he do something wrong (other than joining the navy he would say)? Nope he went where he was ordered. I'm not saying GWB didn't do something sneaky but just because he was in Texas and Alabama during the Vietnam War that dosn't mean he did something wrong.

[Sea Demon]

Not really, the size of current US Navy ships outgrew the Canal decades ago. It was useful during early stages of the navy when ships had smaller displacements but whenever sizes and dimensions started to grow toward their current sizes the waterway quickly became insufficient iirc Its one of the reasons why the US now sustains sperate Atlantic and Pacific fleets, iirc

I'll never slam on someone that's won a Nobel Peace Prize. You won't accomplish 1/10th of what he's accomplished in your lifetime.

Ask any military commander if they consider the Panama Canal as a potentially important strategic asset. What if we need to move even more equipment from the East Coast to the West in the event of a Taiwan Straits crisis. I wouldn't discount that possibility. This was a big failure of Jimmy Carter and his "friendship-building" policies which severely undermined our national security.

As far as Jimmy's peace prize....he got it "for his decades of untiring effort to find peaceful solutions to international conflicts, to advance democracy and human rights, and to promote economic and social development"

1. The efforts to find peaceful solutions in the Middle East were a failure. Just where did Jimmy Carter actually acheive anything in the realm of a peaceful solution?
2. He did more damage to democracy and human rights in helping Kim Jong-Il than if he just left the situation alone. In fact, he prolonged the hold on power Kim Jong-Il currently has on that prison country. Ditto for Cuba and his buddy Fidel.
3. His idea of promoting economic and social development is always the same failure called "Big Government" income redistribution.

At any rate, the Nobel Peace Prize is a sham. It's been awarded to the terrorist Yasser Arafat and to the corrupt Kofi Annan. The latter having done nothing to promote world peace or stability in any way.

[Sea Demon]

Exactly. He'd have been a shoe in for a two term president and remembered as the guy who pulled the country out of the malaise of the late 70s into the economic boom of the 80s.

His policies would have never pulled the country out of anything. It was his policies which prolonged what could have been a recovery. His energy policy was a huge problem. And his tax policies were anti-growth and killed investment incentives. People (especially small business owners) got rid of him for good reason.

My point to you is there is nothing easy about being a fighter pilot regardless of where one is stationed. First it's tough to get qualified. What's it, maybe 1 in a hundred, military pilots get to fly fighters? It's also dangerous. Piloting a fighter is an inherently dangerous job.

The hardest part for me was IFF. Once I got to the FTU at DM, things became easier from a flying perspective, but much more complicated with the academics. I left Air Force flying duty earlier than I should have. You pretty much have to want to do it every day. Keeping qualifications current and your other squadron duties means a hectic week. Sometimes 14-15 hour days. I flew only 3.5 years not including my year at Laughlin, time at Randolph, and time at DM. And I don't think the requirements are any different from the time GW flew. But still I wouldn't make fun of the Guard guys. Guard guys flew combat missions in Vietnam and served with distinction. GW Bush's unit just happened to be a stateside Air Defense unit. Not a likely unit for Vietnam duty. I still don't know why some people make this an issue for GW. GW Bush has his faults, but this is a non-issue if you ask me.

[The Avon Lady]

Search for "Carter" @ LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchTime=0&searchString=Carter&doSearch=search).

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2671/crackpot8qw.gif

And this just in: Bin Laden family gave $1 million to Carter (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50468).

A pity to name a US Navy ship after this baffoon.:nope:

[scandium]

Search for "Carter" @ LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-search.php?searchWith=lgf&searchWhat=entries&searchTime=0&searchString=Carter&doSearch=search).

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/2671/crackpot8qw.gif

And this just in: Bin Laden family gave $1 million to Carter (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50468).

A pity to name a US Navy ship after this baffoon.:nope:

Do you have any other sources for this besides the conservative WND? Just wondering because I tried googling for another one and could only find partisan blogs like Powerline and Free Republic, which all seemed to be sourcing the same WND story.

[The Avon Lady]

Do you have any other sources for this besides the conservative WND?
C O N S E R V A T I V E S ! ! ! ! !

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

S H R E I K ! ! ! ! !
Just wondering because I tried googling for another one and could only find partisan blogs like Powerline and Free Republic, which all seemed to be sourcing the same WND story.
Since the story says it's WND's reporter who obtained the document, why don't you contact WND yourself.

Better yet, why don't you contact partisan :yep: left mass media outlests, like CNN, NBC, ABC, NYT, LAT, WP, et al, and ask them to verify the story. If verified, it should be no less newsworthy than what the world's been told about Bush family ties to the Bin Laden family, no?

[August]

Nobody's saying it isn't difficult or that it isn't dangerous. But flying airplanes over Texas isn't the same thing as getting shot at in Vietnam. And a lot of people who didn't want to get sent to Vietnam joined the National Guard (others decided to move to Canada) instead, where only 0.3% of personnel were deployed there. Some of them were also fortunate enough to get posted to the kind of "Champagne Unit" that Bush served in. Bush's own interest in defending Texas' skies also seemed to come about at around the same time he became eligible for the draft, but maybe that was a coincidence.

In any case I'm not judging the guy as that was a harsh choice for anyone to have to make.

Quit calling it a "champagne unit". Other than young Bush's presence in it do you have any evidence to indicate it was a unit for the privileged? Also, it wasn't "airplanes" it was "fighter jets" which are several scales more difficult and dangerous to operate than your basic piper cub.

You say you aren't judging him but your posts indicate otherwise.

[scandium]

C O N S E R V A T I V E S ! ! ! ! !

S H R E I K ! ! ! ! !

Since the story says it's WND's reporter who obtained the document, why don't you contact WND yourself.

Better yet, why don't you contact partisan :yep: left mass media outlests, like CNN, NBC, ABC, NYT, LAT, WP, et al, and ask them to verify the story. If verified, it should be no less newsworthy than what the world's been told about Bush family ties to the Bin Laden family, no?
Who's to say that they haven't tried to verify it, or do you not think such a story would be news worthy? Or is it that you think that all of these mainstream news outlets you call "partisan left-wing" are conspiring to protect Jimmy Carter? Forget to put on your tinfoil hat today AL? ;)

[The Avon Lady]

Who's to say that they haven't tried to verify it, or do you not think such a story would be news worthy?
Well, now, where are the rest of the media gang's story on this? You yourself are groveling around for it.
Or is it that you think that all of these mainstream news outlets you call "partisan left-wing" are conspiring to protect Jimmy Carter?
I was not the first here to abusively use the word "partisan." Can't you take a little subtle cynicsm?:roll:

[scandium]

Quit calling it a "champagne unit". Other than young Bush's presence in it do you have any evidence to indicate it was a unit for the privileged? Also, it wasn't "airplanes" it was "fighter jets" which are several scales more difficult and dangerous to operate than your basic piper cub.

You say you aren't judging him but your posts indicate otherwise.
I wasn't, Wiki was. Wiki calls Bush's former unit "the most infamous champagne unit" so I thought, in the context of the discussion here, it was worth repeating (but to be fair to Bush I left out the part about it being the most infamous champagne unit).

As to the "airplanes" thing, that was my bad - I misspoke, and you are correct that this was not fair to Bush so allow me to correct my mistake:

While other guys, the ones who didn't have a wealthy Congressman for a father, were dodging bullets in vietnam, Bush flew aircraft over Texas in the most infamous champagne unit of its day.

Better? :-)

[scandium]

Well, now, where are the rest of the media gang's story on this? You yourself are groveling around for it.

There'd be no "grovelling" if you cited mainstream sources now and then instead of the stuff operating on the fringe like WND, Powerline, Transdental Meditations, and Little Green Footballs.

[The Avon Lady]

There'd be no "grovelling" if you cited mainstream sources now and then instead of the stuff operating on the fringe like WND, Powerline, Transdental Meditations, and Little Green Footballs.
Now we've gone from "partisan" to "fringe". No problemo!

[August]

I wasn't, Wiki was. Wiki calls Bush's former unit "the most infamous champagne unit" so I thought, in the context of the discussion here, it was worth repeating (but to be fair to Bush I left out the part about it being the most infamous champagne unit).

As to the "airplanes" thing, that was my bad - I misspoke, and you are correct that this was not fair to Bush so allow me to correct my mistake:

While other guys, the ones who didn't have a wealthy Congressman for a father, were dodging bullets in vietnam, Bush flew aircraft over Texas in the most infamous champagne unit of its day.

Better? :-)
Wiki doesn't call it anything. The people who edit these entries are the ones doing the talking and they bring their political bias with them, just as you are.

[scandium]

Wiki doesn't call it anything. The people who edit these entries are the ones doing the talking and they bring their political bias with them, just as you are.

Hair splitting at its finest. :lol:

[August]

Hair splitting at its finest. :lol:

Why? Wiki is well known for that type of thing, especially when the subject is related to politics.

[TLAM Strike]

Also, it wasn't "airplanes" it was "fighter jets" which are several scales more difficult and dangerous to operate than your basic piper cub. No it was Interceptors not Fighters. There was a diffrence back then... :roll:

[August]

No it was Interceptors not Fighters. There was a diffrence back then... :roll:

Watch it or i'll sick Wiki on ya!

[TLAM Strike]

Watch it or i'll sick Wiki on ya! Wiki agrees with me! :p

F-102 Delta Dagger
Type: Interceptor
Manufacture: Convair
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-102

You cannot beat me for I am strong with the Force... errr... Wiki... :D

[Fish]

* Bort']Bravo! Couldn't have said it better myself, August. While I personally find the current practice of naming ships after living people abhorrent, if that is what we're gonna do, than Mr. Carter deserves the honor just as much as anyone else. I hate it when people demonize Carter like he was the liberal equivalent of Hitler or something, he was well meaning, actually had some pretty good ideas, and was as honest and moral as can be. Do I disagree with some of the decisions he made, of course, but that should not lead to ragging on someone who is by all means a great American. Plus, he was a bubblehead, give him some credit!:up: :arrgh!:

hear, hear!

[Sailor Steve]

No it was Interceptors not Fighters. There was a diffrence back then... :roll:
The difference was that both sides in the Cold War were developing (or trying to develop) supersonic bombers. A fighter was considered to be gun-armed and used for air-to-air combat. The new interceptor concept was missile-armed (no guns) and meant to be able to, well, intercept incoming bombers. They didn't have to actually catch them, just getting to the general area was good enough. That said, as far as difficulty of piloting them there is no difference. The F-102 was a dangerous plane to be in and Bush risked his life plenty.

Side-note: the legendary F-4 Phantom II was developed as an interceptor. The F4E was the first version to carry guns. The navy never had that version, and the top-scoring American ace of the VietNam war, Randy 'Duke' Cunningham (yep, the same guy who admitted to doing bad things as a congressman) got all five of his kills with missiles alone, including besting their best, Colonel Toon.

[TLAM Strike]

That said, as far as difficulty of piloting them there is no difference. Couldn't the F-102 be controled totaly from the ground? Or was that the F-106? :hmm:

BTW the Navy/USMC F-4s could carry up to 3 SSU-16/A Gun Pods on the centerline or 2 SSU-23/As on the wings. ;)

[SmokinTep]

No way to take any pics as it is forbidden.