Unknown Flag

[deadactionman]

On my last patrol I spotted a loan Coastal Merchant somwhere near BF81 and it was waving an unknown flag. A white circle on a red background (opposite to a Japanese flag). I couldn't ID it so I left it alone...

The nearest real world example I can find is Tunisia but theirs has a moon and star in the circle.

Any ideas? :hmm:

[SeeStark]

possibly the German flag, looks like this but without the swastika in the game:

http://www.hrtyrergalleries.com/images/444.jpg

[deadactionman]

I went searching the game files and found "german_m.tga"

http://www.ils2k.force9.co.uk/oddflag.jpg

This is flag I saw, but I'm sure the ship was indicated as an enemy?

[Scorpius]

That is the nazi flag - but due to legal reasons the devs decided to remove the swastika from the flag - thus you und up with the rad flag and white circle.

The one above is the Nazi german flag and the one you posted is the nazi flag with the swastika removed.

[deadactionman]

That is the nazi flag - but due to legal reasons the devs decided to remove the swastika from the flag

Thanks Scorpius... but I don't understand which legal reasons could prevent the devs from depicting the truth? Is this not a bit like pretending that Gremlins invaded Poland and not Germans? History is history... nuff said.

[Scorpius]

Couldnt agree more with you. But fact is fact, they removed it for possible legal reasons in germany. The swastika is illegal in germany and to have it in a game, regardless of whether it is about historical fact is not a good idea.

Put it in your signature and wait for the inevitable outrage from the forum community regarding. Its an unfortunate byproduct of the war over something which is rather cool in design.

[DAB]

That is the nazi flag - but due to legal reasons the devs decided to remove the swastika from the flag

Thanks Scorpius... but I don't understand which legal reasons could prevent the devs from depicting the truth? Is this not a bit like pretending that Gremlins invaded Poland and not Germans? History is history... nuff said.

The reason is that there is a single "European Release" throughout the European Union rather then individual releases for each country. In some states such as Germany, the Swastika is banned iconography, in other countries whilst it is legal - it makes sense to avoid causing inadvertent insult by using it for entertainment.

I for one live in a country where the use of a Swastika wouldn't be illegal, but choose not to mod the game. For one thing I don't see it as neccecery to enjoy the game and second, I have a lot of living relatives who survived the war (on both sides) and would rather not risk offending them.

[deadactionman]

I agree that when used inapropriately, the symbol can cause offence. Groups, people and organisations should be prevented from using the symbol to depict an ideology or point of view they share. But removing it from an historically based computer game is no different from "blurring" the symbol on a Discovery Channel documentary.

I think the offensive element comes from it's use... not the symbol itself. IMHO

Put it in your signature and wait for the inevitable outrage from the forum community regarding.

Urrr no thanks :-?

[andy_311]

You can always d/load the swastica mod and all German ships will have the swastika in the white circle.

[Scorpius]

I wasnt being serious. I actually did that on a sig which got forcibly removed and i got a warning.

But i agree wholeheartily. The insult is in its use, not the symbol itself. Read up on your history and you will find the symbol is a lot older. In fact iirc i think it was at one time used in a good way. Its a shame somthing as simple as a symbol can cause offence.

[JSalinger]

If you consider the Crusades a good thing Scorpius, sure...;)

[Scorpius]

Crusades? :doh:

[Fab]

I have a swastika on all my flags in the game. I wonder if that came with the NYGM Tonnage War mod or something. I know I never downloaded a specific swastika-fix.

And as for flags, the Kriegsmarine flag is the one shown above, the German civilian flag (the one flown by merchant vessels) is the red flag with a white circle and swastika (no black lines and no "iron cross" in the corner). Just like how the British civilians fly the red ensign but the Royal Navy has a different flag. Same thing. What you saw was a German merchant vessel.

[Type941]

That is the nazi flag - but due to legal reasons.

more like moral/ethical reasons. Not like a nazi wil sue ubisoft for copyright.

[CCIP]

That is the nazi flag - but due to legal reasons.

morel like moral reasons. Not like a nazi wil sue ubisoft for copyright.

No, entirely legal reasons. It's illegal to use the Nazi symbols in Germany. :hmm:

[Scorpius]

Basically they did it to avoid any possible repercussions.

[SeeStark]

By the way apologies if posting that symbol offended anyone, just for illustration and reference purposes only.

[Palladius]

If you consider the Crusades a good thing Scorpius, sure...

Actually, the swastika was originally an ancient Hindu religious symbol although it was also present in Native American traditions (apparently independantly)

I could be wrong, but I recall people like Rudyard Kipling and the Finnish royal family used it as their personal symbol until Nazism made it inappropriate.

[TangoShadow]

Hi,

******** CONTROVERSIAL POST!! ********

Let's think about this for a sec. We are commanding German U-Boats in the game, sinking Allied boats (often our own nations boats in RL), all the in the name of Hitler and Nazi supremacy, yet people are upset at the Swastika being shown? Isn't this hypocritical?

If you are opposed to the Swastika being shown in-game for historical purposes, then surely you shouldn't be commanding a U-Boat either. :-? :hmm:

I'm English, I do understand the atrocities that occurred at the hands of the Nazis, and I do know that in Germany at least, it is illegal to posses/show/look at the Swastika in any context. I do understand why for our German neighbors that this would need to be removed.

That said, in my country it is not illegal, and for historically accurate purposes I'd like to add the missing parts of the flag back into the game (I have a tough time as it is with ID'ing ships without partial flags being thrown in!). Could someone please point me in the direction of this mod? I'm new to SH3 (I've had the game less than 2 weeks).

I know there are a couple of other countries in "Europe" (I use the quotes on purpose) where the Swasika is outlawed, but to suggest that ALL of "Europe" needs this flag removing is just wrong. IMHO, remove it where it is legally required, but make it an option (at install time or something) whether or not to show the full Nazi flag. This would keep everyone happy.

I do not mean any disrespect to anyone who was actually affected in RL by the events of WW2, but history is history. If it offends or upsets you, then I think you are in the wrong place.

Thankyou in advance.

--TangoShadow

[Scorpius]

I agree with some of what your saying there mate.

[clive bradbury]

What has happened to this forum? There is no list of mods in the 'mods' thread, and the search engine now appears completely useless?

The reason that I found both the above issues was that I was searching for a very early thread about the swastika. As far as I recall a mod was not needed, you simply had to tweak the files in a standard install. With the changes to the forum it is now not possible to track this...how useless is that?

Anyway, I do have the tgas with the swastika, and have uploaded them to rapidshare:

http://rapidshare.de/files/21082212/full_flag.rar.html

I don't know whether there are any legal issues with this. If there are, can someome please let me know and I will remove them.

[Cdre Gibs]

Err actually guys, if you DELETE the Low Res Texture Folder found in SH3/Data/Textures/lowres (leave the TNormal 1 tho) the swastika will appear back on all flags/ships. There is no need to use a mod. See in the FLAG.DAT, SFLAG.DAT file and the BISMARK.DAT file the texture/skin built into those HAS the swastika on it. Its due to the game then reading the lowres texure folder and overwriting the dat file texture/skin. The Low Res Texture Folder serves no other purpose than to be PC.

[clive bradbury]

That's it, Gibs, exactly what I was inferring in my above post, but I could not remember the procedure, and the new forum system makes it almost impossible to track previous posts (unless I simply don't know how to use it).

Deleting the tgas from rapidshare now...

[SkvyWvr]

I went searching the game files and found "german_m.tga"

http://www.ils2k.force9.co.uk/oddflag.jpg

This is flag I saw, but I'm sure the ship was indicated as an enemy?

:huh: Did I miss something. Does anyone have any ideas as to why this vessel showed up as an ememy . Perhaps this is why Germany lost the battle of the Atlantic. :rotfl:

[Scorpius]

LOL! :rotfl:

[deadactionman]

I've since changed the texture to...

http://www.ils2k.force9.co.uk/jr.jpg

[NightCrawler]

possibly the German flag, looks like this but without the swastika in the game:

http://www.hrtyrergalleries.com/images/444.jpg

I dont know they make an historical error, but that pic is 100% Naval German Flag, the other flag they use more on land...

[KL Seestern]

Warships used the naval flag pictured above, but merchant ships used the other one without the cross, so the game is quite correct.

[deadactionman]

Warships used the naval flag pictured above, but merchant ships used the other one without the cross, so the game is quite correct.

Can you point me to your source? I've been looking for info on the Internet but I can't find specifics.

[KL Seestern]

I found something on the 'Flags of the World' website, here: http://www.fotw.us/flags/de1935.html#swa . I see that the game's german_m.tga file is even accurate in having the circle off-centre; according to the FOTW website, the centred version was mostly used on land, and the off-centre one at sea (perhaps for a kind of symmetry with the naval flag in position of the swastika?).

[deadactionman]

I found something on the 'Flags of the World' website

Thanks :up:

[TangoShadow]

I've since changed the texture to...

http://www.ils2k.force9.co.uk/jr.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol:

It is a shame you can't fly a flag on the U-Boat - I'd put that on mine! :lol:

Ref the procedure for re-instating the full flag - I'll give it a try and let you know - thanks! :)

--TangoShadow

[deadactionman]

It is a shame you can't fly a flag on the U-Boat

No, but you can turn it into a Sub Emblem :up:

[squigian]

That reminds me; I've been searching for the Spanish Treasure Fleet for like two years in-game now, but still no luck. :( Blackbeard keeps eluding me too, and all the ships seem to be ironclads...

[SeeStark]

That reminds me; I've been searching for the Spanish Treasure Fleet for like two years in-game now, but still no luck. :( Blackbeard keeps eluding me too, and all the ships seem to be ironclads...

Try switching the radar on and moving near the surface near Spain, do it 20 times passing from north to south and he'll eventually appear and pillage and violate your entire crew, it does seriously damage their morale though just to warn you :-j

[79TransAm]

I think the US version of the game comes with the flag non edited. Somebody here made the point that german U-boats were out there in the name of Hitler and Nazi Germany. It should be noted that the vast majority of Germanys navy were not nazi's and were good sailors following orders in what they believed was defense of their country and way of life. Saying that all soliders and Sailors of Germany during WW2 were Nazi loyalists and fought for Hitler is the same as saying that every solider in the US milltary or UK milltary pledge their full support to Bush or Blair.

[SeeStark]

I think the US version of the game comes with the flag non edited. Somebody here made the point that german U-boats were out there in the name of Hitler and Nazi Germany. It should be noted that the vast majority of Germanys navy were not nazi's and were good sailors following orders in what they believed was defense of their country and way of life. Saying that all soliders and Sailors of Germany during WW2 were Nazi loyalists and fought for Hitler is the same as saying that every solider in the US milltary or UK milltary pledge their full support to Bush or Blair.

:yep: :yep: Clear example can be seen in the book "Iron Coffins" the typical party slogans were a mainstay of the army and Luftwaffe but were kept out of the Kriegsmarine by strong willed captains, they all saluted in the traditional hand to head way, however after an attempt was made on Hitler's life, they became much more nazi focused and were encouraged (near forced) to use the arm raised salute and heil Hitler, many of the crew hated this, with the exception of the youth brought up trained in Hitler youth camps and hosed in propaganda, some of them had no parents to look up to so worshipped the fuhrer.

[Khayman]

It should be noted that the vast majority of Germanys navy were not nazi's and were good sailors following orders in what they believed was defense of their country and way of life.

Naval personnel were not permitted to join the Nazi Party. As you said though, some supported it. One example is Wolfgang Lüth. Excerpts from a speech he gave on leadership;

"They simply must not like it, just as a German man must not like a Jewess"

"We had on board the volume of the 1933 issues of the illustrated news magazine “Die Wochenschau”, a very good paper, which still showed in its first number of January 1933 many pictures of Jews....We hung pictures from this paper in our “show window” duty roster, and there were always interested spectators crowding around. To the right and left were added comments in red and blue pencil."

He also says how he would give talks to the crew about Hitler and "racial and population problems, all from the viewpoint of the struggle for the realization of the Reich"

http://www.uboatarchive.net/LuethLecture.htm

I think he must be one of the exceptions. I remember reading about a commander (might have been Cremer) who was sailing into port. He shouted up to the officers and men standing to greet them "Are the Nazi's still in power?". When told they were he ordered the engines put in reverse for a few minutes :D

[deadactionman]

All this from a flag question :huh:

[GreyOctober]

All this from a flag question :huh:

Yeah you know...a simple question might degenerate into a flaming debate. Happens most of the time in the forums :yep: ..nothing new

[squigian]

50 Hitler post danger level: [|||||||---]

Hope no trolls are reading this.

P.S. Thanks for the advice, he eventually found me. I was able to put a torpedo into his ship but didn't dare engage him hand-to-hand.

[SkvyWvr]

All this from a flag question :huh:

Is that what this thread is about. Damn I must have taken a wrong turn :o

[deadactionman]

I still don't know why an enemy ship was flying the german flag. Either my WO is a saboteur and lied, or a British skipper tried a bit of deception!

[SkvyWvr]

I still don't know why an enemy ship was flying the german flag. Either my WO is a saboteur and lied, or a British skipper tried a bit of deception!

When in doubt, Salvo!!! :up: