Putin is turning Russia back into USSR

[elite_hunter_sh3]

i heard that Putin is starting a arms race in russia and going back to communism to restore the Old USSR

good for him ive waited for last 3 years for him to do that

why?

Bush accused him of helping "terrorists" (Iran, China oil deal)

Putin isnt taking sh*t anymore from bush i mean nobody on this planet shud

[Deathblow]

How soon things are forgoten.

We do remember how communism has proven inferior to capitalism in most every major measurement... the USSR just didn't trip and fall, it collapsed for reasons. And the current boom that China is experiencing is intimately related to the abadonment of communist ideals and the imbrace of capitalism, no coincidence there.

But heck, if Russia wants to convert back to communism and doom itself to being 2nd rate, who the heck cares.

[Happy Times]

The way they are going reminds me more of national socialism, though they have taken some traditions from USSR, but also from the late Russian Empire.

[Sea Demon]

i heard that Putin is starting a arms race in russia and going back to communism to restore the Old USSR



Russia is in no position to start any arms race economically. And you must be too young to know what the USSR was. There are many that celebrated when it ceased to exist.

[The Noob]

Deathblow, USSR just collapsed because the Politicans got Corrupt.

The problem are the People not communism.

Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! :know:

Thats my way of view.

[STEED]

Over to Kapitan for comments on this one. :yep:

[Onkel Neal]

Deathblow, USSR just collapsed because the Politicans got Corrupt.

The problem are the People not communism.

Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! :know:

Thats my way of view.

Hmmm ... this could be true. I'm quitting my job tomorrow, down with progress. :rotfl:

[The Noob]

Deathblow, USSR just collapsed because the Politicans got Corrupt.

The problem are the People not communism.

Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! :know:

Thats my way of view.

Hmmm ... this could be true. I'm quitting my job tomorrow, down with progress. :rotfl:

What's so funny about what i said?

BTW, 'Progress' is going way to Fast for me anyway.

[CB..]

depends on wether you believe that Russia abandoned communism under duress..if you can accept the possibility of that then it may be that what is actually happening is that Russia is simply taking notice of their emerging communist neighbours China..a not unsuccessful little country which is seemingly imune to the pull of American political power..perhaps because they have mopped up huge elements of the wests domestic good manufacturing market and some what cannily has bought a substantial proportion of Americas national debt..now if you were an old communist country who had been forced to abandon it's past under economic pressure from the west or you had simply run out of money..,,,and you noticed just how succesful your communist neighbour was-- and that neighbour wasn't ill disposed to some form of co-operation..well the possibilities are endless..damn right putins ressurecting the USSR--wouldn't you??

China is on the verge of becoming a super power in it's own right...Russia and China together would be pretty much unstoppable..even as they stand now..in 50 years time well...we can only hope we don't deliberatly set our selves up for a major fall by spending those 50 years winding the sods up.. :lol:

[Deathblow]

Deathblow, USSR just collapsed because the Politicans got Corrupt.

The problem are the People not communism.

Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! :know:

Thats my way of view.

I disagree.

Every political system is corrupt. The capitalist government is no less corrupt than the USSR's. Heck if you ask any US citizen he/she will openly admit that Washington politicians are greedy, corrupt, balantly, openly, and continuously showing that their true loyalties can be bought by political power and campaign funding.

Heck one of the original arguments of Marx against capitalism was that capitalism was inherently more prone to corruption. Its citizens openly motivated by greed and self-interest rather than duty or loyalty... even US military development is governed by one thing and one thing only... money, with contractors working only for self-interest to make cash off military contracts, which motivates quality.

So the corruption on both sides, capitalism and communism, is equal... given that... why did one side become the most dominant economic force in the history of civilization... and the other represent one of the worlds largest collapse?

Capitalism > Communism. Its been proven.

[Deathblow]

depends on wether you believe that Russia abandoned communism under duress..if you can accept the possibility of that then it may be that what is actually happening is that Russia is simply taking notice of their emerging communist neighbours China..a not unsuccessful little country which is seemingly imune to the pull of American political power..perhaps because they have mopped up huge elements of the wests domestic good manufacturing market and some what cannily has bought a substantial proportion of Americas national debt..now if you were an old communist country who had been forced to abandon it's past under economic pressure from the west or you had simply run out of money..,,,and you noticed just how succesful your communist neighbour was-- and that neighbour wasn't ill disposed to some form of co-operation..well the possibilities are endless..damn right putins ressurecting the USSR--wouldn't you??

China is on the verge of becoming a super power in it's own right...Russia and China together would be pretty much unstoppable..even as they stand now..in 50 years time well...we can only hope we don't deliberatly set our selves up for a major fall by spending those 50 years winding the sods up.. :lol:

You should probably look into China a little closer. Its current economic boom is a direct result of its abandoment of communist systems and embrace of capitalistic systems. The more capitalistic its society gets, the stronger it becomes.

Here, try looking at these
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/red/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/ (sections 4, 5, and 6)

[The Noob]

Capitalism > Communism. Its been proven.

You are a Friend of Bush aren't you!?!? :stare:

As your own post says, Humans are Self interestet A$$holes.
And with Self interestet Greedy and Corrupt people Communism can't work.

And, who cares for Economy? Right, the Concerns and the Rich, Because they need it to get Richer.

Capitalism IS more Prone to Corruption because the Capitalist system is based on Owning Stuff. And Money. For getting both, people do anything, in other words, get Corrupt.

The problem is that with People wich are First thinking of thier own Good and 2. on how good a action will be for the others Communism can't work how it's supposed to be. And after a Certain amount of time it Breaks down under thes Curcumstances.

Who finds Typo's can keep 'em. :know:

[CB..]

You should probably look into China a little closer. Its current economic boom is a direct result of its abandoment of communist systems and embrace of capitalistic systems. The more capitalistic its society gets, the stronger it becomes.

Here, try looking at these
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/red/view/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tankman/view/ (sections 4, 5, and 6)


all that really shows it that they have learn't from Russia's mistakes..what ever you believe about the situation they are co-operating with Russia (see the Iranian situation)- and Russia is re-evaluating it's self in light of China's success- and China remains a Communist State..slightly post modern perhaps but that's to be expected..they are not daft..things change.. and they are on the verge of true super power status..and to people of all political persuasions that is significant..

[AG124]

I don't think that it is capitalism that is the greatest attraction of Western societies to their populations, but liberal (with a small 'l') democracy and the personal freedoms associated with it. Capitalism may not be loved by everyone, but I guess it is widely regarded as a necessary evil. Communism involves the overt suppression of freedom of speech by a vanguard dictator in the name of preventing the resurrection of capitalism until a utopia has been achieved. However, it just sets the stage for a dictatorship to permanently emerge.

I recall a quote I once heard, but I forget who said it. It was in reference to either democracy or capitalism or both. The quote was something to this effect: It is the absolute worst system in the world, except for every other system in the world. :lol:

[The Noob]

I Hate Liberalism. :down:

[Sea Demon]

I recall a quote I once heard, but I forget who said it. It was in reference to either democracy or capitalism or both. The quote was something to this effect: It is the absolute worst system in the world, except for every other system in the world. :lol:

I think that's from Winston Churchill IIRC. :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I Hate Liberalism. :down:

Yes boo freedom of thought, limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!! :roll:

[Onkel Neal]

Deathblow, USSR just collapsed because the Politicans got Corrupt.

The problem are the People not communism.

Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! :know:

Thats my way of view.

Hmmm ... this could be true. I'm quitting my job tomorrow, down with progress. :rotfl:

What's so funny about what i said?

BTW, 'Progress' is going way to Fast for me anyway.

Well, I'm not going to try to change your way of thinking, but to people like me, what you said about capitalism is akin to saying the world is flat.

[August]

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!! :roll:

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

[CCIP]

America's term "Liberal" amuses me to no ends.

For the record: in most other places, liberal refers to political centre-right or even just right. In fact the "neocon" movement is properly referred to as "neo-liberalism", as I learned it while studying politics here in Canada.

Only you guys have that funny left-wing association with the word. Perhaps because your political scene is so to the right compared to even most of the Western world :P

***

Original thread topic = :roll:

again?! after that "new cold war" thread? :zzz:

[The Noob]

Original thread topic = :roll:

again?! after that "new cold war" thread? :zzz:

Why Not?

[CCIP]

Have you read my posts there? They addressed in excruciating detail just what's wrong with Putin's Russia, in my rather informed opinion :-?

[Deathblow]

and China remains a Communist State..slightly post modern perhaps but that's to be expected..they are not daft..

No, China does *not* remain a communist state. Their state-run factories are being closed down. Their citizens are now creating self-initiated privately run corporations, self-owned businesses, becoming independent/self-directed entrepeneurs. Which is the power behind their current boom and the sole reason we are projecting their eventual rise in power in the next few decades in the first place.

Edit: Grammar

[Sea Demon]

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!! :roll:

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

The word "Liberalism" has been hijacked by the American Commie rat-finks. Liberals as Ted Kennedy, Howard Dean, Witch Pelosi, etc. do not believe in these ideas of freedom of thought, rule of law, or limitations on the powers of government. ;)

[scandium]

Conflicting definitions of "liberalism":

lib·er·al·ism Audio pronunciation of "liberalism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr--lzm, lbr-)
n.

(1). The state or quality of being liberal.
(2).
1. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
2. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
(3). An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
(4). Liberalism
1. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
2. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.

That's from www.dictionary.com

CCIP refers to definition 3 (as does, more or less, both "neo-liberalism" and "neo-conservatism") while definition 2 is the more commonly meant meaning. Meaning #3 I've only ever encountered academically (in political science, sociology, and economics courses) and I would say its an otherwise obscure usage these days of the term.

[Deathblow]

Its interesting that traditionally the concepts of totalitarianism and communism have been intimately coupled, as has the concepts of capitalism and democracy...

I can think of some countries with capitalistic systems but with non-democratic governments.... are there any examples of a fully two+ party democracy with a communist economy?

[Kapitan]

No country is truely communist end of.

As for russia putin is trying to put it back on its feet and that is why he can only allow half democracy, look what happend when yeltsin came to power manic wasnt the word.

[STEED]

No country is truely communist end of.


http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2326/chin00011km.gif

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9505/nkor00011fd.gif

[Kapitan]

No steed thats communism born out of conveniance, do you find anyone in them two countries who have total equality?

I dont think so therefore they cannot be a true communist state.

[STEED]

I dont think so therefore they cannot be a true communist state.

Go and tell them that one. :smug: :-j

[Kapitan]

Go to google and look up true communism and then compair it to them two countries you will find that they dont match that much.

[STEED]

Go to google and look up true communism and then compair it to them two countries you will find that they dont match that much.

WHY??????????

[Kapitan]

One of the elements of true communism is equality of all people, do you see that in china or korea?

No you dont therefore them countries cannot be true communist states.

[Skybird]

For such debate, I always considered it to be a good idea to keep totalitarism and communism two separate things, and to keep capitalism and democracy two separate tings as well. It's sort of antagonistic.

And communism and democracy suffer from the same misperception: that man is reasonable, altruistic, and good. If we really were like that, the world wouldn't be where it currently is - and that is not an encouraging state.

I think both things, democarcy and communism, only works in social communties of that size, and not bigger. Beyond that, both turn into feudal structures again. We see it in Europe, we see it in Russia, in the US, and in China as well. Neither communism nor democracy work for communities of that size. In both cases, self-declared pseudo-elites emerge and ursurp power.

Accoridng to Chaos theories, systems of a given structural complexity level can only grow so far ion that level, if they grow bigger in size, the system goes into a phase of chaotic recostruction- and re-emerges on a higher complexity level again, with a structural order that is completely new. It may hold the solutions to all problems of the lower levels (earlier developement) phases, but it comes at the price of new problems that are not present on lower levels of the hierarchy of previous orders.

However, if the system on a given developement level and of a given comkplexity sturcture grows in size beyond that barrier and does not turn chaotic and then transform into a system of higher complexity, if this system instead only grows and adds more and more single peices to the old structure, it suffers from more and more probpems, and sooner or later dies. There is no such thing as unlimited growth, and each structural level has it'S limits for size. Uncontrolled growth is something that is known in medicine: uncontrolled cellular growth, it is called a tumor, or cancer. Our communties suffer fro this kind of cancer, too, may it be with regard to traffic systems and road networks, may it be with regard to interactive finance structures, may it be with regard to the distribution of powers in representative bodies and offices, may it be with the self-dynamic of our industrial and economical structures.

[STEED]

One of the elements of true communism is equality of all people

Not under Uncle Joe. ;)

[Kapitan]

Whos uncle joe is that the canadian version of uncle sam?

[CB..]

No, China does *not* remain a communist state. Their state-run factories are being closed down. Their citizens are now creating self-initiated privately run corporations, self-owned businesses, becoming independent/self-directed entrepeneurs. Which is the power behind their current boom and the sole reason we are projecting their eventual rise in power in the next few decades in the first place.

Edit: Grammar

yes you allready said that....Communists (the clever ones anyway) like money too-- you know big houses etc etc..now they can have both...at one special reduced price limited period only..scary isn't it...

[STEED]

Whos uncle joe

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/8892/stalin7vh.png

[Oberon]

Whos uncle joe is that the canadian version of uncle sam?

I think STEED is referring to Mr Ioseb Jughashvili ;)

But I agree with Kap, true communism, the total equality of the masses, is not possible in this unideal world. Every attempt has resulted in virtual dictatorship. :damn:

[STEED]

Communism dose not work. :hulk:

[Onkel Neal]

Communism dose not work. :hulk:


Agreed 100%

Communism: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us".

[TLAM Strike]

Communism dose not work. :hulk:

Oh really...
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3049/250pxufpseal9in.gif
http://www.section31.com/column.php?id=14
^That article does make one mistake, the Federation does have money (the Federation "Credit") although it appears to be totally worthless and only used in the Federation...

... sorry had to make my mandatory jab at the good old UFP.

[CCIP]

Actually, I always called my political orientation "I would be communist if I didn't know people better".

Being rather left on the spectrum, I'm honestly not at all opposed to the ideal goals of communism; but there's one problem - it's based on the completely wrong assumption that people can all suddenly become rational and respectful of each other as much as themselves.

In this sense, those who created the US constitution were way ahead of Marx and the crew. They certainly realized the failings of humans, and created a much more reliable and stable system. Neither, of course, is unexploitable.

Communism never existed, by the way. China and the USSR, and all those other states, are/were just examples of how to take an ideology and exploit it to one's own ends. Likewise, the idea of "democracy" has already gone through the wash in Russia and was/is likewise exploited by the government there.

People who haven't been screwed by their government really shouldn't take it for granted. As long as there's people who want to be better than others, communism will never work, and I think that's something that's programmed into human nature (not to say inherent to everyone) and has driven society as much as it has driven natural evolution. Liberalism, in the end, is just far more appealing to most people - at least on a practical, everyday level.

Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism" :lol:

[Fish]

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!! :roll:

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

All! :|\

[Sea Demon]

Yes boo freedom of thought,limitations on power of government and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, the right to vote for all, a country in which there is financial help for the out of work or poor, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed.

I mean who wants that! Pffft!! :roll:

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

All! :|\

Has nothing to do with American Liberalism at all. :shifty: American "Liberals" usually spit on those values.

[CCIP]

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all? :roll:

[August]

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all? :roll:

I do.

[joea]

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all? :roll:

I do.

So do I, I honestly respect your posts a lot and consider you one of the most thoughtful and objective posters here.

[Sea Demon]

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all? :roll:

I do.

So do I, I honestly respect your posts a lot and consider you one of the most thoughtful and objective posters here.

Me too CCIP. :D I like to read your posts. You're a well thought out guy. I agree with some of what you post. And I understand what you wrote about Liberalism, and understand you're looking at it in the classical sense of the word. And I'm just pointing out that there is no classical Liberalism in America, and it has been hijacked by hardcore commie insects in my country. Perhaps it exists in other locales. Doesn't mean I didn't read your post. :shifty:

And no, I know what Communism is, and totally despise it. Human nature will not allow it. The quest for Communism in the 20th century brought so much death, tyranny and pain that I wish the "rational" people would stop their dreams of this unworkable, fictional society. Lest their "good" intentions pave another road to hell for us.

[CCIP]

Well, I was more concerned that it seemed like we're circling above the same points that were sort of mentioned, but thanks for the good words :)

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is as good a phrase as ever, I think, and I for one doubt that there were many communists who were actually in power AND had good intentions for people. Lenin, before communist, was first and foremost a smart strategist and opportunist. Stalin was a cross between an average gang leader and a megalomaniac; his successors were more or less party cronies. Gorbachev was an idealistic but poor socialist strategist, and his mistakes cost Russia dearly; Yeltsin was just a criminally awful and irresponsible (except for the pockets of his 'crew') half-leader the likes of which Russia hasn't seen since the last Czar, and that one was at least a decent man in private; Putin is back to smart and pragmatic strategist, but without any particular ideology - he lacks the charisma to push one, anyway. I honestly can't see Putin's Russia becoming ideological; for those seeking an ideology, there is a socially tangible but politically irrelevant extreme right wing - and I doubt it will ever be more than a way for angry skinheads to release their tension; ultimately, the governing coalition still holds all the cards.

I think you can safely bet that while Russia is not going to be very democratic in the next while, but it's not going to rise up in some sort of sharp ideology. The vast majority of the population is extremely weary of this.

***

As for communism, the fundamental failure of it is that it's all about classes and masses. Wester liberalism (in the non-American sense) is right in that it recognizes the very real "I" with which all people live. At least in any modern Western culture (and I think Russia is one, no matter how some may want to paint it) - a working political ideology, left-wing or right-wing, has to start with the individual. In fact - and I don't say this lightly (I've looked into cultural psychology and weighted it against my own experience) - but one reason communism was destined to fail in Russia is that modern Russians are about the most fiercely individualistic people on the planet. :hmm:

[Happy Times]

Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism" :lol: In Finland we have Social Democrats, you might be close to them. Theres never enough money as they want to spread around and the taxes are out of control. Thats the reality of socialism. Theres a lot of people in Finland that think goverment should help them in all aspects of life. From raising their children to supporting them finacially as long as they find a job they really like. This system easily makes people passive and unable to take responsibility for themself.

[CCIP]

Well, I'm pretty skeptical of the welfare state myself, largely because it's badly managed in almost all instances. I think there's ways to manage these things better, but as it stands a lot of the systems are disfunctional and prone to abuse.

We have the NDP in Canada, too, but one reason I've been somewhat wary of them is that they seem more keen on extending than actually reforming the welfare state. :hmm:

[XabbaRus]

CCIP's post above sums it up from the time I spent studying Russian history.

I have some sympathy for Yeltsin. I think at the very beginning he really did believe he could turn Russia into a democracy but I think partly carried away with the euphoria and the inherent screwed upness of the Russian governmental system it turned very quickly into cronyism of the extreme kind. No wonder he became an alcoholic.

I think Putin is doing a not bad job considering. At the end of teh day your average Russian is like everyone else, wants a decent amount of money to live and a roof over their head. From the things I talked about with Russian friend they weren't so concerned about whether the govt controlled the TV stations as to whether they could get a decent job with good prospects and could travel.

[The Noob]

Well, i think Putin is a A$*hole. :nope:

[CCIP]

Well, i think Putin is a A$*hole. :nope:

Reasoning? :hmm:

[The Noob]

Well, i think Putin is a A$*hole. :nope:

Reasoning? :hmm:

Putin is Corrupt.

[CCIP]

Corrupt in what sense?

I certainly don't doubt it, but he's far less corrupt than Yeltzin for example; and in fact he's had far less reason to be corrupt as he's successfully centralized power around the federal government - he doens't need to pay anyone off nowadays, I think it goes the other way.

Putin is not neccesarily more corrupt than the average leader, I think. :hmm:

[Deathblow]

Communism dose not work. :hulk:

Oh really...
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3049/250pxufpseal9in.gif
http://www.section31.com/column.php?id=14
^That article does make one mistake, the Federation does have money (the Federation "Credit") although it appears to be totally worthless and only used in the Federation...

... sorry had to make my mandatory jab at the good old UFP.

Oh... my... gosh........*BAAAAAAARRRRRRFF!!!*
:lol:

[kiwi_2005]

Putin made one vital mistake in my books. Not saving the Kursk sailors, even though other countries offered to help with the rescue he still refused. Was it for security reasons? not letting the west find important info or what???

Bad move

[Type941]

How soon things are forgoten.

We do remember how communism has proven inferior to capitalism in most every major measurement... the USSR just didn't trip and fall, it collapsed for reasons. And the current boom that China is experiencing is intimately related to the abadonment of communist ideals and the imbrace of capitalism, no coincidence there.

But heck, if Russia wants to convert back to communism and doom itself to being 2nd rate, who the heck cares.

Excuse my french, what the feck are you talking about?

"I hear Putin making USSR of Russia"
"Oh, communism was inferior to capitalism, Russia will burn in hell for that"

What the hell? This is exactly the kind of opinion spin makers at CNN and such are happy about.

The only person talking about Russia backsliding on democracy is DICK cheneny - the man who apparently is running the whitehouse, since GW is listening to what that egghead is talking about. But hey, I'm glad russia is finally calling on American Bull**** and double standards, about time someone did. I hope more countries begin to condemn openly thier imprerialistic murdering policies, their fake 'democracy' used to overtake satelite states and their fake care about the rest of the world.

Make no mistake, there's not gonna be any communism in Russia in future because they've been there, done that. What scares me are the people who think there will be, the paranoia they start, and so on and so forth. I probably should read more comments in the thread, but honestly this is either a troll topic (in the way the question is put) or made by someone who's totally ignorant about russia (no disrespect but the ' heard that Putin is starting a arms race in russia and going back to communism to restore the Old USSR ' is like taking word 'sheep' from the bible and saying he heard the bible talks about sheep. Well.. Putin said Russia will modernize the army to counter foreign threats and pressure from 'others', as well as focus on making russia stronger demographically due to decline in population in recent decades. Who said they are going back to USSR? An idiot in a blog? Powerful Russia scares the bejesus out of USA and they'll do everything to prevent that from happening - but by opposing russia they'll push it closer to: Iran, China, India, Koreas, etc. And that's a combo US will choke on if it tries to swallow them. Apparently DICK cheyney doesn't get that. As long as US wages war so his company can make billions, he's happy.

I hope common sense prevails and US won't start another cold war because if it does it won't win it. It is now the agressor, it is the country half the world hates, and it is the country whose wellbeing depends on world economy working. Capitalism is great, but it's not a friend of a militaristic power. Keep fighting wars for too long, and you'll go bankrupt.

[TLAM Strike]

Communism dose not work. :hulk:

Oh really...
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/3049/250pxufpseal9in.gif
http://www.section31.com/column.php?id=14
^That article does make one mistake, the Federation does have money (the Federation "Credit") although it appears to be totally worthless and only used in the Federation...

... sorry had to make my mandatory jab at the good old UFP.

Oh... my... gosh........*BAAAAAAARRRRRRFF!!!*
:lol:

You think thats bad just wait till you learn the truth about Star Fleet (http://canonfodder.ex-astris-scientia.org/index.php?Society_%26_Culture:The_Pervasiveness_of _Starfleet_in_Federation_Society) :o

[Subnuts]

"Well, Jon, the great jousting tournament that is Election Day draws nigh, the prize the building you see behind me, Castle Congress. But what side shall prevail in this epic electoral tilt? Who shall control the future of Fortress America? Will we be, as the Republicans desire, a nation of wealthy heavily-armed white men, befouling the air and water in a ceaseless quest for profits, beholden to no laws but those of our lord and savior Jesus Christ? Or shall we instead embrace the Democrats' vision of a namby-pamby quasi-Socialist Republic with an all-homosexual army flamboyantly defending a citizenry suckling at the foul teat of government welfare? The choice is yours, fair maiden America, for the name of this feudal system is Democracy."

-Stephen Colbert, formerly of the Daily Show

[The Noob]

Putin made one vital mistake in my books. Not saving the Kursk sailors, even though other countries offered to help with the rescue he still refused.


Yes, this was a bad choice.

I certainly don't doubt it, but he's far less corrupt than Yeltzin for example

So what? Yeltzin was a A**hole too. I like the IDEA of communism, not the way it way Exsecutet. ;)

[Wildcat]

Communism has never been fully instated. Take a look at basic history textbooks and also look at Marx's manifesto. There's supposed to be an uprising, a temporary 'comittee' (politburo) and then restoration of power to the people by the comittee.

That third step has NEVER happened in ANY communist country EVER. And it's very unlikely it ever will.

It's absolutely true that China became a true power when it started relaxing its communistic economic ideals and allowed corporations to operate on a capitalistic model.

[The Noob]

But if the third step would happen...how would the world look.. :hmm:

[Wildcat]

It never will happen. Been attempted many times, has never happened, will never happen. Communism just doesn't work.

[scandium]

It never will happen. Been attempted many times, has never happened, will never happen. Communism just doesn't work.

Neither does capitalism IMHO, although its had a good run so far. One of the greatest strengths of capitalism is that it can very efficiency match needs and wants (demand) with goods and services (supply). But that is also its biggest problem because of how fast we can consume resources under this system, many of which are finite and non-renewable. At the same time the consumption of these resources tends to produce nasty side-effects (various forms of pollution) that are not compatible with human life and which build up over time. That's not to say communism is "superior", only that capitalism has its own warts as well.

[The Avon Lady]

What does pollution have to do with capitalism or communism? :hmm:

There is no contradiction in being an environmentally friendly capitalist or communist.

[Kapitan]

The nation that emits the most CO2 into the atmosphere is not russia but america, the ones who dump the most waste into the sea is america.

[bradclark1]

Yeah. We are the worlds worst polluter be 1/3. China comes in second.
Not a title to be proud of unfortunately.

[August]

The nation that emits the most CO2 into the atmosphere is not russia but america, the ones who dump the most waste into the sea is america.


So? From what i understand Russia has released more radioactive fallout than any other country in history and generally does its polluting on land. Both it's own and in the former USSR satellite countries.

[The Avon Lady]

Take my Commies, please! (http://ageofhooper.blogspot.com/2006/05/requires-windows-media-player-ok-heres.html) :doh:

[Torplexed]

Apparently Putin now wants to give rubles to Russian momen to have babies.

Worried about a decline in the Russian population approaching 700,000 a year, President Vladimir Putin offered women cash to have more babies to repopulate the deserted areas of the country and reverse the threat of limited economic growth.


He proposed an increase of 1,500 rubles a month to families having their first baby ($55), over half the average wage; and 3,000 rubles for the second. When a mother decided to stay at home with the kids she should get 40% of their prior job wage.


Some young couples said one child is a financial struggle and more changes are needed before they would risk additional children. Andrei Karmadanov, 23, from Russia's Far East said Putin's proposals would only encourage freeloaders who want vodka.

So....in a country where a large percentage of the men go to an early grave due mostly to the vodka bottle, Putin is gonna have women make up the difference. That'll work. :hmm:

[The Avon Lady]

Bah! I get more over here. I ain't moving! :nope:

[Torplexed]

Glad to hear somebody's getting more. ;)

[Wildcat]

>Neither does capitalism IMHO, although its had a good run so far<

Sorry, but capitalism is in full swing in nearly every 'western' country on the planet, and it is a complete success. The mark of modernization and success of all developing countries is to adopt a western system of capitalization. It's not a 'political ideology' like communism is. Capitalism is simply free trade that is not interfered with, it was a naturally occuring thing. Each country has their own take on how the government interacts with the economy but in the end the economy controls the country, and the people control the economy.

Capitalism is a complete success, has been instated fully in most parts of the modern world and is basically the only proven workable way to sustain a modern nation. Those who don't accept that get left in the dust. Most countries with capitalism are also democracies but there are exceptions like China.

There are no shortcomings produced by capitalism, only by the people who control the economy. The people are not forced to any ideology, capitalism means free economy. There is nothing stopping people from inventing new ideas or new ways of reducing environmental impact or whatever. If they DID something like that, they could capitalise on it and expand the economy even further.

You don't get something like that with communism. Capitalism + true democracy is basically the only realistic way to go in the modern world. Anything else is bound to suffer major setbacks. Watch China when the privately owned corporations become too powerful for the government.

[Type941]

So? From what i understand Russia has released more radioactive fallout than any other country in history and generally does its polluting on land. Both it's own and in the former USSR satellite countries.

From what I understand that doesn't make it ok for US to ignore its detrimental effect on world environment TODAY, August, TODAY. Gosh we've been over this but the nationalist on the other side of the pond will never change until :|\

[Type941]

Putin made one vital mistake in my books. Not saving the Kursk sailors, even though other countries offered to help with the rescue he still refused.


Yes, this was a bad choice.


Ok, not a laughing matter, but that's at you: :rotfl:

You guys speak of Putin's decision as if it was clear cut thing. All reports point to that the escape hatch was jammed and regardles of whom would try to open it, it was not possible to save people there. The way it ended, cold death after hours in water is awful. Saying Putin could have actually saved them is just putting them blame on him for something he had really no control over. But no, the only thing clear to you is the opened hatch footage showing bubbles coming out, implying people lived there for ages. Don't mix politics with reality.
---
Meanwhile, Estonia* in another attempt to appologise farshism of 1940s have forbidden all soviet symbols in Estonia. That includes red flags, CCCP tshirts, desmatlement of soviet monuments (one on a mass grave in center of Tallinn was painted over by vandals last night while government does nothing about it and silently agrees)
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file12944548_ps.jpg
and even sickle and hammer are now forbidden to own. At the same time a nazi monument is being looked after in a small town in Estonia, which brings Waffen SS legion soldeirs who fought against red army and participated in mass murdering of civilians along with nazis. 1 month ago, one of former members of the legion, whose name shall not be said, was let go by court even though the leading holocoust organization was pressing charges against him. In Estonia he was more or less a hero. The organization says they'll get him anyway. The country's population of about 1.2 milion still has about 300000 people (majority of which are russians, pensioneers, etc) who have a grey passport (Alien) and no citizenship rights for more than 15 years, even though many of these people were born and lived all their life in Estonia. Russia in Estonia often called as Turk in Germany. EU closes its eyes on overwhelming minority human rights violation on its own territory.


http://www.mosnews.com/files/11374/blameestonia.jpg

Nice, huh?

Tell me more about Democracy in European Union. Please, I beg you.


*Estonia is part of EU, but its actions and opinions expressed may be different to those of other countries in European Union.

[Kapitan]

Kursk sailors lived only for about 8 hours autopsys show they died of coarbon monoxide poisioning and suffocation, many of them said bodys were badly burnt and the cause.

Air purification filter fell into oily water and caught light a known problem and its not unique to russia all modern submarines carry them.

The escape hatch wasnt jammed it was perfect working order, by the time the ships were over head on the first day the crew had just 2 hours to live, by the time any salvage vessel got there they were long dead.

[CCIP]

I'm glad Type941 brought up the case of the Baltic "revisionists". And I was honestly disgusted to find that a little book by the Estonian SS legion was in my library, having been sponsored for production by the Canadian government here. For all the wrong that the USSR may have done, it's completely inexcusable to do this.

[Kapitan]

was it next to a book called mien kampf? germany did some barbaric things as well so you cant shift everything onto the USSR.

[Type941]

Certain ignorant revanshists here don't seem to get through their thick skulls what role Hitler had prepared for them...

But it gives hope . Because it confirms that history CAN be forgotten when necessary. Pics on previous page though tell that now it's not there yet.

[Kapitan]

according to what i believe americans think that money can buy everything history has taught us this.

They bought london bridge from us because they wanted a bit of history

The only realy came into the war (WW1) because they were forced by friends

The came into WW2 because the japs bombed pearl harbour and then hitler declared war.

They tried making a film to prove they found the enigma machine first and fail

They try and write other countrys history books and tell them what happend even before america existed

long list.

[TLAM Strike]

They tried making a film to prove they found the enigma machine first and fail Yes one lousy movie even Americans don't like is all part of our massive conspiracy to take over the world. Oh lets not forget Operation, Burma! The war wasn’t even over and we were rewriting history already.

Give me a break Kapitan your even more paranoid than usual.

[Kapitan]

Ive got alot of issues on my mind right at this moment so no wonder.

[Takeda Shingen]

according to what i believe americans think that money can buy everything history has taught us this.

They bought london bridge from us because they wanted a bit of history

The only realy came into the war (WW1) because they were forced by friends

The came into WW2 because the japs bombed pearl harbour and then hitler declared war.

They tried making a film to prove they found the enigma machine first and fail

They try and write other countrys history books and tell them what happend even before america existed

long list.

I'm going with TLAM on this one. This is way off. I understand that you do not like America or Americans, but there is plenty of factual statements to rail against them/us. You don't need to invent anything.

If you'll excuse me, I have a stack of Ukranian history textbooks to complete.

[Type941]

If you'll excuse me, I have a stack of Ukranian history textbooks to complete.

Wrong, don't lose focus. You know you have a few weeks left till you can form the Ukranian government. Luckily, the new ambassador is on the task anyway, but you should weigh in as well.

And sadly, this isn't a joke, US is forming ukranian government. Whole fekin country is gonna be in sh*t thanks to your 'america democracy' - the black plague of 21st century.

[Takeda Shingen]

Whole fekin country is gonna be in sh*t thanks to your 'america democracy' - the black plague of 21st century.

Excuse me, my American democracy? Do I call it your socialist oligarchy? I'll thank you not to personalize this.

[Kapitan]

I have nothing against the american people just your overpowering government who seems to think they know whats best for everyone on earth and frankly as weve seen they dont.

Also none of that was invented

[Takeda Shingen]

I have nothing against the american people just your overpowering government who seems to think they know whats best for everyone on earth and frankly as weve seen they dont.

Then perhaps you should stop making broad, sweeping statements such as:

according to what i believe americans think that money can buy everything history has taught us this.

This implies all Americans, myself included. I am not trying to buy anything. Next time, say America or the American government.


Also none of that was invented

Really? U-571 was produced and released by Universal Pictures in an effort to rewrite history? London Bridge was purchased on a larf? A massive global textbook revision is underway? Peer pressure was the primary cause for the US's entry into the first Wold War? America had no involvement in the affairs of the second World War prior to 7 December, 1941?

You have distorted all of the above well beyond the boundaries of reason.

[XabbaRus]

Yes many people in Western Europe don't seem to know much if anything at all the stuff that goes on in the Baltic states towards Russians.

By the ltter of EU rules they should not have been allowed in due to direct discrimination against the Russian population.

Other stuff I could mention is Russians being turfed out of their appartments and given to "native" Estonians/Latvians/Lithuanians.

It goes from the nastiness like that to the preposterous.

where I live there are quite a number of Baltic state people who came over to work now they are in the EU. Some are Russians others are native. The crazy thing is even though the natvie "Balts" (I use this as it is easier then writing the county names all the time) refuse to talk with me in Russian even if it would be easier, just because it is Russian.

Thanks to Type941 bringing this up....

[August]

So? From what i understand Russia has released more radioactive fallout than any other country in history and generally does its polluting on land. Both it's own and in the former USSR satellite countries.

From what I understand that doesn't make it ok for US to ignore its detrimental effect on world environment TODAY, August, TODAY. Gosh we've been over this but the nationalist on the other side of the pond will never change until :|\

The nationalists on the other side of the pond won't change regardless of what we do. On the other hand i'm sure they'd like to see us wreck our economy and standard of living by adopting strict quotas even the signatory countries rarely meet.

[scandium]

What does pollution have to do with capitalism or communism? :hmm:

I was only discussing capitalism in my post, and I thought I explained the relationship pretty clearly but I'll give it another go:

Pollution is a side effect of many forms of industry, from the coal burned to power the machines in manufacturing plants, to the emissions produced in the transportation of resources to plants and goods to market. The link is between capitalism's extraordinary capability to meet needs and wants (many of these wants being manufactured by the advertising industry that is part and parcel of the system), its efficiency, and the consumption of resources and the pollution produced in the process to meet them.

There is no contradiction in being an environmentally friendly capitalist or communist.

Nor did I say there was. But I was also referring to the system itself and not individuals.

[scandium]

>Neither does capitalism IMHO, although its had a good run so far<

Sorry, but capitalism is in full swing in nearly every 'western' country on the planet, and it is a complete success. The mark of modernization and success of all developing countries is to adopt a western system of capitalization. It's not a 'political ideology' like communism is. Capitalism is simply free trade that is not interfered with, it was a naturally occuring thing. Each country has their own take on how the government interacts with the economy but in the end the economy controls the country, and the people control the economy.

Capitalism is a complete success, has been instated fully in most parts of the modern world and is basically the only proven workable way to sustain a modern nation. Those who don't accept that get left in the dust. Most countries with capitalism are also democracies but there are exceptions like China.

Well first off, in the grand history of mankind, the history of capitalism is but a dot on the timeline. Within that little dot we've managed to deplete much of the world's non-renewable resources of coal and petroleum and that is leaving its mark on the environment. The extent of that mark is still unknown, while consumption, at least over the short term, will continue to increase. As will the rate of resource depletion and pollution side effects.


There are no shortcomings produced by capitalism, only by the people who control the economy. The people are not forced to any ideology, capitalism means free economy. There is nothing stopping people from inventing new ideas or new ways of reducing environmental impact or whatever. If they DID something like that, they could capitalise on it and expand the economy even further.

This is extremely simplistic and naive. Of course there is nothing stopping people from inventing new ways to reduce environmental impact, and in fact many have been invented already, years and even decades ago. The resistance lies in their adoption by industry, and, to a lesser extent, even consumers. In the first case the resistance is there because existing technologies benefit from things like economies of scale and prior innovation that make them cheaper to use than new technologies that don't have these benefits. For example the automobile, which has been in use for about a century and has gone through constant innovation but remains essentially unchanged - in fact many of todays autos don't get much better milage than the 14 MPG of the original model T. The radically newer designs of electrics and hybrids have been around a while but face resistance from consumers in part from the comparative expense of the newer technology.

In the case of pollution controls they tend to cost money to be implemented and are resisted by industry out of fear that profits will be impacted, and by consumers who fear costs will be passed onto them. Governments are hesitant to force compliance with pollution reducing technology out of legitmate fear that these industries will simply shut down and relocate to places where the pollution is a welcome trade off for the money that will be brought into the region in return. In any case the trade off is the same: pollution in return for higher profits, cost savings, or regional investment.

Capitalism + true democracy is basically the only realistic way to go in the modern world.

Perhaps. It comes at a very high cost over the long-term though, the bill for which we don't know, nor do we know when it will become due.

[CCIP]

Capitalism + true democracy is basically the only realistic way to go in the modern world.

Perhaps. It comes at a very high cost over the long-term though, the bill for which we don't know, nor do we know when it will become due.

Golden words there :yep:

There are very few democracies which held out for more than a few decades as of now(and even then, their "trueness" is debatable). The US, far from being the rule, is a very unique exception in that. Capitalism, meanwhile, is in completely uncharted territory today. There is no historical precedent to compare it to; what the marked is capable of today is unprecedented.

There are some things we can say and argue about, but ultimately the perfection and longevity of this system is mostly speculation and ideology. The reality is less than straightforward.

[STEED]

was it next to a book called mien kampf? germany did some barbaric things as well so you cant shift everything onto the USSR.

I just like to say I have read this book and my view is this, it's a badly written book and full of waffle which I don't recommend anyone to read. Unless you want to get in to the mind of a mad man and no I have not read his second book I decided to pass that one up.


according to what i believe americans think that money can buy everything history has taught us this.

They bought london bridge from us because they wanted a bit of history

The only realy came into the war (WW1) because they were forced by friends

The came into WW2 because the japs bombed pearl harbour and then hitler declared war.

They tried making a film to prove they found the enigma machine first and fail

They try and write other countrys history books and tell them what happend even before america existed

long list.

I just like to say Kapitan if you intend to declare war on America or the President you may just get arrested for that one so don't bother. ;)

[CCIP]

was it next to a book called mien kampf? germany did some barbaric things as well so you cant shift everything onto the USSR.

No, not at all, actually. And it was a book written in the 1990's, published in Canada with government support. It was nothing like Mein Kampf; rather, it was simply meant to whitewash the Estonian SS and put down the Soviets.

Ironically, the first house my family owned in Canada was bought from a former member of the Estonian SS (which we confirmed when we found some papers left over in the house). Unlike the publishing ones, though, he was clearly a quiet man who regretted what he'd done.

[Happy Times]

Meanwhile, Estonia* in another attempt to appologise farshism of 1940s have forbidden all soviet symbols in Estonia. That includes red flags, CCCP tshirts, desmatlement of soviet monuments (one on a mass grave in center of Tallinn was painted over by vandals last night while government does nothing about it and silently agrees)
http://g.delfi.ee/images/pix/file12944548_ps.jpg
and even sickle and hammer are now forbidden to own. At the same time a nazi monument is being looked after in a small town in Estonia, which brings Waffen SS legion soldeirs who fought against red army and participated in mass murdering of civilians along with nazis. 1 month ago, one of former members of the legion, whose name shall not be said, was let go by court even though the leading holocoust organization was pressing charges against him. In Estonia he was more or less a hero. The organization says they'll get him anyway. The country's population of about 1.2 milion still has about 300000 people (majority of which are russians, pensioneers, etc) who have a grey passport (Alien) and no citizenship rights for more than 15 years, even though many of these people were born and lived all their life in Estonia. Russia in Estonia often called as Turk in Germany. EU closes its eyes on overwhelming minority human rights violation on its own territory.


http://www.mosnews.com/files/11374/blameestonia.jpg

Nice, huh?

Tell me more about Democracy in European Union. Please, I beg you.


*Estonia is part of EU, but its actions and opinions expressed may be different to those of other countries in European Union. Are you working for the FSB or something? You cant be serious that Estonians should keep monuments of their occupier? USSR send third of the Estonian population in to camps and brought Russians to replace them. As you yourself said, the people without passport are Russians, not Estonians. Wouldnt it be fair that Russia would take them back? Calling all Waffen SS soldiers Nazis is a lie. They didnt all participate in war crimes, that is a fact. How many NKVD, partisan or Red Army members has Russia convicted of this types of crimes? Plus, you dont mention that most Estonians were concripts not volunteers. The sickle and hammer are to millions of people the same as the swastika, representing millions of dead family members and relatives. Funny that you dont get all this, you liking to study history. :roll: But history books in Russia are different from those in the rest of the world..

[Happy Times]

http://www.mosnews.com/files/11374/blameestonia.jpg Disinformation at its best, the priest, blessing the monument for the fallen, seems to be making a sieg heil salute in this caption. Bravo :up:

[CCIP]

And which side are you on? :shifty:

Newsflash: Waffen SS was acknowledged as part of the Nazi organization at Nuremberg and universally condemned. There is no excuses for Waffen SS. Of course not every SS soldier participated in an atrocity, but they were very explicitly signing up into this work. These were Waffen SS soldiers, no more, no less. They share the responsibility for the "humanitarian work" done by Waffen SS on the Eastern Front.

There were Estonian units in the Soviet army fighting against the Germans on the other hand, and this is a monument to this battle specifically - not to NKVD, not to the Soviet army in their role as occupier. There is a big difference.

Again, I repeat, there is NO excuses for Waffen SS. There is no excuses for honoring an essentially Nazi legacy. I don't care HOW you raise your goddamn hand to honor them, you just don't do that. There is no excuses for dishonoring a legacy of those fighting against the Germans and their allies, period. :-?

Happy Times, don't go overboard, please. There is a difference between recognizing history and defending Nazi organizations. Myself nor Type941, nor most Russians, deny the wrongs done by the illegal Soviet occupation of the Baltic. But this just doesn't measure up with Nazism.

[Happy Times]

http://www.mosnews.com/files/11374/blameestonia.jpg Disinformation at its best, the priest, blessing the monument for the fallen, seems to be making a sieg heil salute in this caption. Bravo :up: He is doing the cross sign in the air, if somebody didnt get it. :doh:

[CCIP]

I know what he's doing.




And if you still didn't clue in, likewise -

The problem is not the fact that they're commemorating resistance to Soviet occupation. The problem is how and through what. They could do it without using Nazi organizations connected to massive atrocities. They could also do it without trying to make present-day Russians somehow feel guilty of it, and without disenfranchising vast populations of Russians on their territory who were born and raised there.

I think a good parallel to this particular gesture would be if Finland raised a monument to their glorious role in assisting the siege of Leningrad. :roll:

[Happy Times]

And which side are you on? :shifty:

Newsflash: Waffen SS was acknowledged as part of the Nazi organization at Nuremberg and universally condemned. There is no excuses for Waffen SS. Of course not every SS soldier participated in an atrocity, but they were very explicitly signing up into this work. These were Waffen SS soldiers, no more, no less. They share the responsibility for the "humanitarian work" done by Waffen SS on the Eastern Front.

There were Estonian units in the Soviet army fighting against the Germans on the other hand, and this is a monument to this battle specifically - not to NKVD, not to the Soviet army in their role as occupier. There is a big difference.

Again, I repeat, there is NO excuses for Waffen SS. There is no excuses for honoring an essentially Nazi legacy. I don't care HOW you raise your goddamn hand to honor them, you just don't do that. There is no excuses for dishonoring a legacy of those fighting against the Germans and their allies, period. :-?

Happy Times, don't go overboard, please. There is a difference between recognizing history and defending Nazi organizations. Myself nor Type941, nor most Russians, deny the wrongs done by the illegal Soviet occupation of the Baltic. But this just doesn't measure up with Nazism. Im in the side of truth, not some perverted mockery of history. Well United States recognized the special nature of the Baltic SS units, they defended them. Estonians fighting for USSR were volunteers and considered traitors, wich they were. USSRs crimes compare well with those Nazis did. You dismiss valid points i made, about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence. Convinient. Are you suggesting i shouldnt honor my countries history in WW2? Then we might have a serious disagreement.

[CCIP]

about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence.

What other condemnation do you need, for crying out loud? Maybe they should apologize for fighting Germany, too?

What do modern Russians have to do with this? Even Mr. Putin was born after WWII. This is history. This has been acknowledged, now let's stop dishonoring it and pestering today's Russians over it.

I don't care about the "special nature". The US can say lots of things; I see 27,000,000 dead Soviet citizens in World War II. And I think they're rolling over in their mass graves from these kinds of gestures. I understand the Estonians had it hard; but that doesn't excuse their contribution to the Nazi war plan. Again, "tragedy of small nations" is my explanation, and I sympathise with this. But one atrocity doesn't automatically cancel out another. You can join the Waffen SS with your "special nature", and you're still in the Waffen SS to me.

[Happy Times]

about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence.

What other condemnation do you need, for crying out loud? Maybe they should apologize for fighting Germany, too?

What do modern Russians have to do with this? Even Mr. Putin was born after WWII.

I don't care about the "special nature". The US can say lots of things; I see 27,000,000 dead Soviet citizens in World War II. I understand the Estonians had it hard; but that doesn't excuse their contribution to the Nazi war plan. Again, "tragedy of small nations" is my explanation, and I sympathise with this. But one atrocity doesn't automatically cancel out another. You can join the Waffen SS with your "special nature", and you're still in the Waffen SS to me. The nerve some people have :o Fack you!

[Happy Times]

http://forum.axishistory.com/index.php Read! All you ignorant SOBs! Myth isnt a fact. Il leave this thread for good.

[CCIP]

:roll:

Where did I get it wrong? Teach me.

For one, I'm more than familiar with the history of this; I don't think I'm missing the facts here. There's Soviet, post-Soviet and Western takes on the history under my belt; and I've read the little Legion book too. And I've got relatives in Tallinn. So it's not as though I'm pulling a "mighty Russia for the win!" here.

(by the way, my apologies, the "you" in my last sentence was non-referential, sorry if it ended up the wrong way)

[edit]

Thanks for the link. Interesting site, but again, I stress - I know the facts, and I am NOT in any way, shape or form defending anyone here. I'm simply pointing out the indefensible; the rest is fact. One fact is that the Soviet occupation was a crime. Another fact is that Waffen SS is part of an even bigger crime, no matter how you slice it. And the most important fact is that one person's life is not worth more than another's. Defending one's own nation while agreeing to a systematic elimination of another's is barbaric; the Soviets had no plans for eliminating the Baltic - just (very forcefully) making it fall into the same system, whereas the Nazi organization of which Waffen SS is part of had very clear plans for eliminating the peoples of the USSR.

Honoring Waffen SS is honoring independence at the cost of genocide. It's as simple as that.

[Happy Times]

about Russias lack of condemnation of USSRs crimes, in one sentence.

What other condemnation do you need, for crying out loud? Maybe they should apologize for fighting Germany, too?

What do modern Russians have to do with this? Even Mr. Putin was born after WWII. This is history. This has been acknowledged, now let's stop dishonoring it and pestering today's Russians over it.

I don't care about the "special nature". The US can say lots of things; I see 27,000,000 dead Soviet citizens in World War II. And I think they're rolling over in their mass graves from these kinds of gestures. I understand the Estonians had it hard; but that doesn't excuse their contribution to the Nazi war plan. Again, "tragedy of small nations" is my explanation, and I sympathise with this. But one atrocity doesn't automatically cancel out another. You can join the Waffen SS with your "special nature", and you're still in the Waffen SS to me. So Estonia lost more people of its population in proportion than USSR but thats just part of the "tragedy of small nations". Do you understand how that sounds? Why wouldnt the Balts joined the Germans in 1941? They were under Soviet occupation, trains leaving to Siberia with whole families, when they came. :doh: So Russia honors all the "good history" that USSR left but not the ugly? How come Germans born after the war cant pick and choose their heritage? Is it their burden to carry? Just admit that you want to exercise the "winners" right to write history as you see fit.

[CCIP]

What's with the Germans? I love the Germans. I'm not going to go up to a random German and make them apologize for World War II. Nor will any sane Russian. I'm 1/4 German myself.

Russians are not the winners. They got equally badly treated under Stalin, just like everyone else - it wasn't based on nationality, unlike Hitler. How do I get it through to you that the Soviet system is NOT a Russian empire, it's an empire of the Bolschevik party, an organization which from the beginning was composed of a large variety of people of many nationalities. Oppression was based on dissent from it, and not simply on the fact that someone was Estonian, Russian or whatever. Quite reversely from the system the SS was part of, no?

Of course it's part of the "tragedy of small nations" - that's why it's a tragedy. That automatically implies that they were more or less inescapably screwed from the beginning. It doesn't mean I agree they can be run over. That's not meant to undermine their suffering, which I AGAIN - for at least the 3rd time in this thread - acknowledge and sympathise with.

Of course you don't "honor" the bad history - you don't put monuments glorifying it and put flowers on them - you make conclusions from it.

I understand why the Balts joined the Germans in 1941. And you should understand why any Russian doesn't like that. Because there were very distinct plans for the "Slavic Untermensch". The Soviets, by contrast, only wanted an "Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian SSR".

Anyway, I don't understand why we're fighting here. It's not like I'm saying "Estonians = bad", or that Estonians must absolutely forget the Waffen SS - hell no! But the Germans have their own way of honoring Waffen SS - by having museums and monuments to the Holocaust. Why the Estonians don't follow suit, along with putting up monuments commemorating Soviet atrocities, is beyond me.

[joea]

Honoring Waffen SS is honoring independence at the cost of genocide. It's as simple as that.

That about sums it up. :hmm:

[STEED]

Honoring Waffen SS is honoring independence at the cost of genocide. It's as simple as that.

That about sums it up. :hmm:


Good point.

[Type941]

To Happy Times.

Looks like you are showing your semi nashionalist side again. Whose side are you on anyway? Juding by your numerous comments, I suspect you are rather sympathetic to the browns.

...
Disinformation at its best. Right. i didn't even look at the priest, the point is the monument in modern europe to a fashist regime that YOU approve. For people like YOU there is a double standard in the world.

And we've been through this before. What feking condmemntation you want to hear AGAIN? They did it. In 1991. They do it again it makes you warm and fuzzy for 3 days then you ask again? What do you REALLY want? Korelia? May be you want all Slavs living in Russia to herd into a big feking boat, go to arctic pole, and live there? Either go fight for it, or forget it. It won't happen. Territory is changed, new borders, etc, etc. Arrghhh!!! Why should I appologize for my parents? Why should Russia appologize for Stalin? WHY? What stupid logic is this!?!!


Your father smoke pot in university in the hippy days. Now let's prosecute your arse for that, Happy Times? That's how your logic works here, or dare I say, does not.

It's absurd to me, and I will never understand people like you because of that blind lack of logic, appologism to nazism and double standards. I may be fought few times in my life in highschool, since I don't think fighting changes much, but I swear for this pro nazi stance anyone deserves a good punch in the face! :down: :nope: Or a roundhouse kick if you are Chuck Norris. :hulk:

[CCIP]

I also want to stress the point again that the idea that Russia should be held responsible for the deeds of the Soviet state is flat-out wrong. There are many Russians, individual people, who were responsible for Stalin's regime - even if the head of it was Georgian and many high officials in it were of various other Soviet nationalities. But the Soviet empire, even being focused around Russia, was not Russian as such; and Russians, being the largest population group, took their proportional share of suffering and repression. Who will apologize to them? The USSR is gone. Dead states don't apologize. Likewise, most of those who fought in the Baltic during WWII are gone. Dead people don't apologize.

The former Estonian SS member that I met didn't apologize - he buried his past in regret and lived out a productive life in Canada, and when Russians (i.e., my family) came to buy his house, he left it in good condition and told us how we should tend the garden. Neither we nor him bore any animosity towards each other, and that was the end of it.

[Type941]

meanwhile recently a high school instutuion was opened in estonia that was with german slant (languages, philosophy, etc, etc). The owners put portaits in the hall of the shcool featuring waffen SS legionaires. :) Then invited the german embassy. You can imagine how shocked never mind embarassed the poor ambassador was. He recommended it was taken down, since, ehem, it's kind of illegal in germany and he felt it sends a totall wrong message in german school. The portraits were taken down.

So my kid goes to school with nazis on walls. How amazing is that? ....

Yes, it's all politicial, on national level there is little animosity between NORMAL people. I at least don't interact with any crazy nazist estonians, then again I work in a bank and crowd there is more or less educated, successful and open minded. May be on some construction yard there are debates, but not at my work place. To us it's like "politicians seem to think they solved all our problems, and now thankfully found one more they can deal with - the statue on a grave of soviet soldiers" - especially this statue, considered one of the best examples of neo soviet art, where the soldier is not the all conquering monster, but a sad looking guy with face down and mourning fallen comrades.

[joea]

Type941 and CCIP, seeing those monuments treated like that makes me really sad and choked up. :( Especially with the line about the sadness of the soldier...reminds me of a case of vandalism of a British military cemetary in France a couple of years or so ago. :nope: :(

[Happy Times]

Type 941 Im am not a brown faschist, a Nazi. pretty insulting when you know im pro Israel. Its you who that defends red faschists, Bolseviks. It isnt a facking competition, who killed more. Its the fact that both were criminal but the other is still honored. And it isnt the Estonians. They arent remembering Waffen SS but their relatives that fell fighting against USSSR. False history being taught at russian schools, whitwashing a totally criminal history. Its symbols presented every year in many events. Its a fact that Stalin said that all Finns should be all moved to Siberia. How many have to die to make it matter? Perverse. Fact is that USSR was evil and its a shame that other allies collaborated with this country. They left a democratic country between two murderous regimes and by they miracle survived the war. Well, your not that far, im coming to Estonia this summer. Il PM my plans when i know better, so that you can come and try give that punch. But otherwise im leaving this forum for good.

[The Avon Lady]

Apparently Putin now wants to give rubles to Russian momen to have babies.

Worried about a decline in the Russian population approaching 700,000 a year, President Vladimir Putin offered women cash to have more babies to repopulate the deserted areas of the country and reverse the threat of limited economic growth.
Maybe he has a more specific concern (http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2006-02/2006-02-28-voa77.cfm?CFID=9227464&CFTOKEN=94535184) on his mind.

[CCIP]

Its the fact that both were criminal but the other is still honored.

Why shouldn't the average Soviet soldier be honored for fighting againt Nazism?

I think it's safe to say that the original occupation of 1940 was criminal and terrible. But these aren't monuments to the occupation of 1940, nor are the monuments to the SS legion monuments to fighting against the occupation of 1940, or those continuing to resist after the fall of Hitler's war effort. These are monuments to Soviet soldiers who died fighting against Hitler's regime, 1941-1945 (as it will say on those monuments), fighting on Estonian soil - but what do you suggest, that they don't fight there and just let the SS sit there? These are monuments to the SS legions formed during Hitler's respective occupation of the Baltic, which operated as part of the Nazi system which had genocide written into its ideology and goals as far as the Eastern Front went.

You're really stopping very short of saying that the USSR should have probably been destroyed, i.e. by not resisting Hitler's efforts within and outside its territory. That may have been OK with you, but that's not OK when tens of millions of people die as a result.

Geez, who in this thread ever tried to whitewash anything? It's like you have this filter on your computer that takes out each time that I mention "illegal occupation" or "Stalinist repression". I've said it many, many times; any decent Russian will acknowledge this, or get informed.

Geez :roll:

Its a fact that Stalin said that all Finns should be all moved to Siberia.

1) Stalin was medically paranoid. And it's not like he only said that to the Finns.
2) Stalin never went to fight in Estonia, nor is the monument to mr. Stalin
3) if you want to go there - Stalin was not a Russian

***

For the record, by the way, I'm known for being an avid SHIII player and a fan of the German military in the historical sense; I would never dishonor the memory of German soldiers - AS LONG AS it's being commemorated in an appropriate way that does not glorify them as liberators, independence fighters, or some other nonsense like that - only as soldiers.

[Kapitan]

Stalin was born in georgia a balkans republic and joseph stalin is not his real name.

Georgia is twinned in its fight with russia by chechnya.

[XabbaRus]

A Balkans republic? :o

Try a few hundred miles east.

[joea]

Stalin was born in georgia a balkans republic and joseph stalin is not his real name.

Georgia is twinned in its fight with russia by chechnya.

Jesus Kap did you drop out of school or what? :88)

[STEED]

Stalin was born in georgia a balkans republic and joseph stalin is not his real name.

Georgia is twinned in its fight with russia by chechnya.

Jesus Kap did you drop out of school or what? :88)

I have to back Kapitan up on Stalin's real name please read the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/stalin_joseph.shtml

[Oberon]

Ioseb Jughashvili - Check
Born in Georgia - Check
Georgia a republic - Check
Georgia a Balkan republic - Err...

But never fear, I snuck into the Department of Defense and stole this map from right under their noses. So without further ado:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/2707/georgia8zl.gif

[STEED]

Arrest that man, stop map thief. :-j

[Wim Libaers]

Its the fact that both were criminal but the other is still honored.

Why shouldn't the average Soviet soldier be honored for fighting againt Nazism?


And why shouldn't the soldier on the other side be honored for fighting against socialism/Stalinism?

If one wants to be really cynical, one could even say they both were doing a very good job because, if they hadn't been wearing each other down on the Eastern front, all of Western Europe might have been conquered by one of those two evil empires too.

[CCIP]

I realize the other side, of course, but my primary distinction has always been between the aims of Germany and the USSR. The USSR conquered, but it was neither their aim nor the factual reality to institute genocide, just political conformity. On the other hand, it was attacked by Germany and had to defend itself from a war of annihilation. Anything going on at the periphery at the time of the war is, in my mind, national self-preservation first, and imperialism only second (a major second, but a second nonetheless).

[joea]

Stalin was born in georgia a balkans republic and joseph stalin is not his real name.

Georgia is twinned in its fight with russia by chechnya.

Jesus Kap did you drop out of school or what? :88)

I have to back Kapitan up on Stalin's real name please read the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/stalin_joseph.shtml

For heaven's sake I have studied Russian/Soviet history for years and of the Second World War as well... :nope: I knew that.

Sorry I came down on the Kap I saw Balkans in the place of Caucasus and not anything else.

Sorry again. :up:


But I knew that. :rock:

[STEED]

I knew that.

May be if you used some of these as well :-j :P :doh:

Then we all latched on you were pulling KAP'S leg

By the way my answer was late at night and I was half sleep. :up:

Back to the topic........................

[The Avon Lady]

/bump

:p

Seriously:

Symposium: When an Evil Empire Returns (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23038).

:hmm:

[Tronics]

Realistically I find this improbable.

You need vast amounts of money to man and maintain military equipment, does Russia have enough money to float the bill to revitilize their armarment industries and rearm and re-equip there somewhat aged military? Yeah I know it's not that old, however what state is it actually in?

The rest of this became a rant about the state of news agencies in america and worldwide broadcasting more of a political viewpoint then news these days. So I deleted it.

[The Avon Lady]

Realistically I find this improbable.

You need vast amounts of money to man and maintain military equipment, does Russia have enough money to float the bill to revitilize their armarment industries and rearm and re-equip there somewhat aged military? Yeah I know it's not that old, however what state is it actually in?
I don't believe you actually read the article.

Nothing is mentioned of Russia invading Prague again.
The rest of this became a rant about the state of news agencies in america and worldwide broadcasting more of a political viewpoint then news these days.
Where is there anywhere in the article a "rant" about the western press?
So I deleted it.
Are you a hacker?!?!:huh:

:roll:

[STEED]

Another old thread resurrected? :zzz:

[Yahoshua]

[quote=The Noob]Capitalism is bad for the "Normal" people with little money. Capitalism is only good for the Big Damn Concerns. I'm not one of these, i ain't rich, so to hell with Capitalism! quote]

Aw for christ sake kid.....do you even uderstand how capitalism works as opposed to Communism? Here's a crash course on economics:

Capitalism depends on independent owners creating a domestic and international market. And the reason there is such a large gap between the rich and poor is because of the LACK of education about money.

Rich people don't work for money, money works fro them. The rich own assets, assets create money and they don't have to do anything with those assets, employees take care of that. What employees don't know is how to handle money. Employees work, are taxed before they get their paycheck, get it, pay their bills, and then they get what's leftover, which isn't much.

The rich pay themselves first with legal, pre-tax dollars. So the rich will put their income from their assets and job (if they choose to work) back into their assets and spend pre-tax dollars before they're taxed, they do this by spending the money as a "Company Expense." For example: Vehicle repairs are a company expense, dinners and lunch with clients are company expenses, buying real-estate is a company expense, etc.

Whatever is left-over from company expenses is taxed by Uncle Sam. If you want more information about this I suggest you read a book called "Rich Dad & Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki.

Now about Communism. This sort of government had ONLY a domestic market, with no outlet for international markets. Farms are collectivised, and nobody is allowed to own any personal belongings. Everything is owned by the state.....even YOU.

China has actually outsmarted the Russians by giving in to a hybrid Communist/Capitalist market. China maintains an Iron Rod over her citizens and domestic affairs while selling goods that are in high demand to overseas markets.

This provides a constant cash-flow INTO CHina, keeping the domestic market alive. But I've yet to see a full-blown transition into a capitalist market with the Chinese buying goods from other nations in large quantities.

[Oberon]

Another old thread resurrected? :zzz:

You can't argue with her timing though, almost EXACTLY one month since the last post in this thread...just 17 minutes too early! :damn:

[sergbuto]

Seriously:

Symposium: When an Evil Empire Returns (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23038).

:hmm:

Got a good laugh. Thanks.

[STEED]

Another old thread resurrected? :zzz:

You can't argue with her timing though, almost EXACTLY one month since the last post in this thread...just 17 minutes too early! :damn:

NO FT NO COMMENT :stare:

[The Avon Lady]

Seriously:

Symposium: When an Evil Empire Returns (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23038).

:hmm:
Got a good laugh. Thanks.
Don't mention it. :shifty:

Um, I must've missed the funny part. Can you fill us in?:hmm:

[bradclark1]

But I've yet to see a full-blown transition into a capitalist market with the Chinese buying goods from other nations in large quantities.

They buy Buicks. :D

[Yahoshua]

I dunno about the Chinese buying buicks (they just want the governor chips right? j/k). But as far as everything else goes I haven't seen them buy basic needs like toilet paper or raw materials, or outsoucing some of their jobs over to us. Unless I missed something in-between the lines.

[Kapitan]

Russia has enough money to support its force now but only just enough, now the fleet is being downsized so there should be a fair amount left over for other things.

[The Avon Lady]

More on the direction Russia is heading towards:

Putin's Dubious 'Democracy' (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23114)

[CCIP]

CIA Director R. James Woolsey put it, "Putin has taken things back, maybe not all the way to Ivan the Terrible, but to, say, Nicholas II on a bad day."

That's a kind of stupid statement, although I'll generally agree with the "Tsar Putin" idea.

Well folks, I'm heading to Russia for two months right now. I'll tell you what things are like and how 'Soviet' or 'Tsarist' they are first-hand when I come back :hmm:

[Happy Times]

http://www.fsumonitor.com/stories/071306Russ3.shtml , http://www.tvdata.ru/catalog.php?dir=1&did=397&lang=eng , http://www.rnebarkashov.ru/foto01.htm Thought id post those. Im going to Estonia next month if anyone wants to see me.

[XabbaRus]

Happy Times I don't see the point of those articles.

I'm pretty sure I could find similar ones for British extremists.

Roginov is a prick and most Russians I know thing the same, yea there has been a rise in the number of racially motivated attacks in Russia and a large number of skinheads etc. The thing is has it been noted of the rise in numbers due to better reporting. I believe that in proportion to its population there are the same number in teh UK.

Thing is Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia aren't any better. All over eastern europe there has been a rise in these fascist groups.

[Skybird]

All over eastern europe there has been a rise in these fascist groups.
Make that all of Europe.

[bradclark1]

By Dr. Rachel Ehrenfeld and Alyssa A. Lappen (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=3362)
Washington Times | June 29, 2006
Russia launched another strike against democracy on June 15, when 14 Duma members, representatives of Russia's five Duma factions, submitted amendments to ban any public political criticism by individuals and/or organizations, including demonstrations against the government.

Now that is something to take notice of. Thats significant in that it really limits the voice of the people.

[The Avon Lady]

The Bush-Putin G8 Summit (http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=23347).

[Happy Times]

Happy Times I don't see the point of those articles.

I'm pretty sure I could find similar ones for British extremists.

Roginov is a prick and most Russians I know thing the same, yea there has been a rise in the number of racially motivated attacks in Russia and a large number of skinheads etc. The thing is has it been noted of the rise in numbers due to better reporting. I believe that in proportion to its population there are the same number in teh UK.

Thing is Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia aren't any better. All over eastern europe there has been a rise in these fascist groups. Extreme groups arent very big in the baltic countries. Funny how these groups are allowed to operate in Russia when other NGOs are being pressed down hard.. http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/08/c6ab315b-85ab-4c64-88f9-3d911774a9e0.html

[Happy Times]

Putin Jugend? http://www.ipak.org/staff/psoldiers/index.html , http://www.worldpicturenews.com/web/SearchResults.aspx