VIIB vs VIIC

[deadactionman]

It's almost 1941 and my trusty VIIB has seen me through several patrols. However, even thought the option to upgrade to the VIIC has been offered for several months now, I can't quite make up my mind.

It offers reduced endurance and speed but it dives 3 seconds quicker :hmm:

Seems like a waste of renown but I welcome your comments.

[TheSamuraiJedi]

Trust me.

When a Sunderland is diving on you or a C Class or Fletcher class destroyer is bearing down on you, 3 seconds is an eternity to wait.

I'd rather dive and survive than go a little farther.

[Umfuld]

I wait for a sub with two rear tubes. Save your renown.

[Ducimus]

I wait for a sub with two rear tubes. Save your renown.

It's not quite as simple as that. ;)

[CCIP]

I wait for a sub with two rear tubes. Save your renown.

It's not quite as simple as that. ;)

Two rear tubes and about 50 years slower diving time :rotfl:

I love the IX :up:

[TheSamuraiJedi]

and a sonar signature as large as a Mack truck!

[Ducimus]

Theres still more of a difference then that.


Totally alters your gameplay. Ive come to rediscover why i really hate being assigned any grid that starts with GR.

If my crew were a real one, they'd be calling me "Der Fuel Miser", or "Kapitan Schnorkel".

I picked up a snorkel early, (feb43), left base for my 4th patrol for GR82. Its now May and yeah im JUST now starting to return, but im still south of the ascention ilse.

I swear i cant be on the surface longer then 30 mins before my RWR goes off, the whole freaking way. :damn:

[Heibges]

Yeah, I went on a 135 day patrol to Capetown in a IXb, and have never gone on anothe Type IX patrol. Barely made it back with any fuel too,

[Umfuld]

You see, I've only started from 1939, and I always long for the IX.


I usually die soon after I get it though, but I always figure I just screwed up.

Maybe I should keep my VII-B a little longer next time.


(In between last post and this I got KIA on my first time out with my new IX. HarHarHar!)

[Ducimus]

Ok i guess ill acutally attempt to answer the orginal question.

Ok yah, as stated the VIIC is a few seconds faster on the dive, and can dive a little bit deeper.

The VIIB is a bit slower to dive, but has a little bit more fuel and underwater range.

The biggest difference however is in conning towers.

the VIIB only has two conning tower types.

The VIIC has 4 towers. All of which progressivly upgrade your AA ablity.

[Khayman]

According to http://www.uboatwar.net/VII.htm, the VIIB didn't have enough internal space for fitting new technology, specifically the "new active sonar S-Gerät". So they built the larger VIIC. I don't sail in Type VII's, so I've no idea if you can't fit active sonar to a VIIB in the game or not.

[Scorpius]

I have sailed all but the D2 C/42 and the XXI. The C is the best of the lower end boats at the beginning of the war until about the start of 42.

[Keelbuster]

It's almost 1941 and my trusty VIIB has seen me through several patrols. However, even thought the option to upgrade to the VIIC has been offered for several months now, I can't quite make up my mind.

It offers reduced endurance and speed but it dives 3 seconds quicker :hmm:

Seems like a waste of renown but I welcome your comments.

This is a sensitive topic for me. I ride a VIIB, 1942, and plan to take her through to the end, whenever that may be. I've done the VIIC thing, but I can't stand the speed hit (18kts vs. 21kts). Speed is everything for me; you overhaul convoys and outrun destroyers way more than you dive. Anyway - the dive thing - when a plane starts an attack run on you, diving is not the best option. Usually that results in bombs crushing your main pump and engines as you plunge at 8kts to your death, around 300m. The best thing to do when you are challenged by air attack is to _stay surfaced_ and do a deek, right or left, upon it's attack. You may be hit, but at least you won't be heading down at 8kts when the flooding starts to take hold. Dive after they attack. If they don't see you, dive, and you will be under before they do their run, even if you're in an IXD2. Dive time isn't so important. I prefer maneuverability. The speed also translates to underwater speed when you are being hunted.

VIIB all the way!

Kb

P.S. Still not sure if the VIIB can run a schnorkel - will find out soon!

[Ducimus]

>>P.S. Still not sure if the VIIB can run a schnorkel - will find out soon!


All type 7's and 9's can use a snorkel. Type 21's have one by default.

Only one who can't use a snorkel is the type 2's.

[Scorpius]

I am sailing in a type IIA at the moment. Its a horrible boat, but it gets the job done. And since i am at kiel in a type IIA, i have to dock at willhelmshaven to refuel before going out on my patrol.

It sux but it the only way i will have it. Type IIA, 1939, Kiel. Normally i upgrade to VIIB, then VIIC, then IX and its variants and finally at the end of the war, XXI. It gives me a sense of accomplishment to have such a horrible boat and end up with the best at the end.

[deadactionman]

Having read everyone's comments, I think I'll stick with the VIIB until the IX becomes available... anyone know how much renown I'll need? Does the BdU offer credit facilities? :lol:

[Ducimus]

Having read everyone's comments, I think I'll stick with the VIIB until the IX becomes available...

First ask yourself if you like long range patrols, and don't mind long (often boring) transits to and from your area of operations.

The renown i beleive is about 5000 to 6000 for an IXB or C, and 9000 for an IXD2 if i remember correctly.

[Threadfin]

I think it's 7500 when it first becomes available in fall of '40, then drops to 6500 a few months later.

[Khayman]

I think if you're being offered a VIIC then the IXB should also be an option. Remember you have to be in the right flotilla to get one. Check out http://www.communitymanuals.com/shiii/index.php?title=Career_Timeline it has flotilla info and the renown cost of each boat.

[Keelbuster]

Right now I'm hunting in my VIIB off of Newfoundland, care of U461 Milkcow.

Kb

[andy_311]

I have a IXD2 her dive speed to pd is 42 seconds.torpedo load out is great,with 12 realoads,6 internal and 6,external rear,2 tubes 2 reloads and 4 extra one cool boat only snag is the 42 second dive to pd and in 44 that's is a very long time belive me.

[deadactionman]

Check out http://www.communitymanuals.com/shiii/index.php?title=Career_Timeline

A fantastic resource... thanks :up:

[Scorpius]

I have a IXD2 her dive speed to pd is 42 seconds.torpedo load out is great,with 12 realoads,6 internal and 6,external rear,2 tubes 2 reloads and 4 extra one cool boat only snag is the 42 second dive to pd and in 44 that's is a very long time belive me.

Yeah i agree. That single thing is the ONLY flaw in the D2. Other than that i reckon that is the best boat overall.

[Keelbuster]

I have a IXD2 her dive speed to pd is 42 seconds.torpedo load out is great,with 12 realoads,6 internal and 6,external rear,2 tubes 2 reloads and 4 extra one cool boat only snag is the 42 second dive to pd and in 44 that's is a very long time belive me.

Yeah i agree. That single thing is the ONLY flaw in the D2. Other than that i reckon that is the best boat overall.

For me it's all about evasion underwater. I don't care too much about torpedoe capacity (so long as I can really harsh a single convoy; take 1/3rd of the ships) because I can just run more patrols rather than fewer longer patrols. I find the IX class boats are sluggish underwater, which often means death when facing determined escorts. The VII is nimble and small, which in my mind, is all that matters. Massive loadout is good in the early war, but in the late ware you _want_ to run out of torpedoes so the patrol can end honourably.

Kb

[Ducimus]

The reality is the only major drawback to an IX boat underwater is its slow turning. Reason i say this is because 95% of the escorts in this game are freaking stupid. I have only died to a depthcharging TWICE ever, in an VII or IX boat in this game that i can recall from playing SH3 off and on for over a year now.

Proof? Aug, 1943, grid EE61 i think it was. (this morning acutally) I slammed two STEAM torpedos into the side of a bogue escort carrier that was part of an HK group. The outter guard was probably 1500 meters off my starboard bow.

Not so much as ONE ping. from ANY of them. I acutaly went back up to periscope depth, hard rudder to bring my stern tubes to bear on the carrier. All the while DE's are passing me by, looking yes, but not doing anything.
I looked up that HK group in the RND layer right after, crewrating is 3. veteran.

Very disappointing.

[deadactionman]

Well I've finally got my hands on an IXB. If I don't like it, I'll just open a previous save... or would that be considered cheating? :roll:

Would you buy a car without a test drive?

[Ducimus]

Nah its a game, have fun.

[Scorpius]

I agree. Its a game, do what you want.

[Keelbuster]

The reality is the only major drawback to an IX boat underwater is its slow turning. Reason i say this is because 95% of the escorts in this game are freaking stupid. I have only died to a depthcharging TWICE ever, in an VII or IX boat in this game that i can recall from playing SH3 off and on for over a year now.

Proof? Aug, 1943, grid EE61 i think it was. (this morning acutally) I slammed two STEAM torpedos into the side of a bogue escort carrier that was part of an HK group. The outter guard was probably 1500 meters off my starboard bow.

Not so much as ONE ping. from ANY of them. I acutaly went back up to periscope depth, hard rudder to bring my stern tubes to bear on the carrier. All the while DE's are passing me by, looking yes, but not doing anything.
I looked up that HK group in the RND layer right after, crewrating is 3. veteran.

Very disappointing.

I had a few careers where I was never DCed. But the last two careers ended by DC - extended hunting, with all my best efforts (ear on the hydrophone throughout) followed by a CRUNCH. Both times it was clear weather, and a pack of Black Swans went mean on me. Consider yerself lucky - you IX boys hunt single merchants for a living. Convoy bandits (aka VII) are much more likely to get DCed to death.

Kb

[deadactionman]

So much for the maiden voyage of U-124...

Departed from Lorient and ordered to patrol AN52. I decided to take the long way round to avoid the channel (or rather getting killed in it) and so far I've seen nothing! Not a blip on the hydrophone, not a "Ship Spotted" from the WO and not even a contact report from BdU.

Looks like I've scared the British fleet out of the water! :rock:

[XXi]

Yesterday, I`ve just finished a D2 patrol that took place between Januray 7th 1943 and July 12th, 1943.
I was to patrol near Capetown, then headed for the Indian Ocean, stuck near Mogadishu and Sansibar for some time.
I got a small convoy near Freetown, and several single merchants all over Africa - the play was just GREAT.
My lat three torpedos made all the true excitment of the patrol - I attacked a small convoy and all the torpedos annihilated a single Liberty.
However, there were three DDs, clear water.
I got pinged, so I started quick dive - if I`m beeing pinged already, what the reason to maintain periscope depth ?
At 85m I `ve slowed down and waited a bit. During the attack run, I dropped a decoy, got at flank speed, turn 80degrees, 120 m, than silent running.
And that was it - decoy has done its work.

So, even IXD2, when handled well, can be smooth :) :) - I go to flank speed, and when the plane is diving I made a sharp turn ( use Flak sometimes, depending on conditions ) - after the plane drops bomb, I start the crash dive so that usually I manage to get under water before it repeats the attack.

[Keelbuster]

Nice. Good dodge. But why dive? Their DCs are usually set deeper than PD...

Kb

[Ducimus]

Consider yerself lucky - you IX boys hunt single merchants for a living. Convoy bandits (aka VII) are much more likely to get DCed to death.

Kb

HAH, you think i shy away from convoys? Oh contrare. I get right in them, bring both bow and stern tubes to bear on two columns at once. Even then, escorts are stupid. (only boat i woudlnt try this with is an IXD2)

8 or 9 times out of 10 i slip away without much rukus.

For the record i ahve a lost contact time of 45, and have increased the noise factor and wave factors so the AI can hear more on their passive sonar. Whats more, right now im so fed up, i have made all those single ships in 43 and 44 in the caribean and east coast into mini convoys, 2 or 3 merchants with two elite DE's. Im acutally testing this now, i hope they give me a good pummeling :D


Before i go on next patrol, im going to do a "find and replace" on the RND layer. and make EVERYTHING crew rating 4.

Its the only crew rating that behaves aggressivly and is worth a damn.

[XXi]

Ducimus --> actually there`s one case in which you can risk a convoy attack - it is a stormy weather. Gives you quite a chance.
THe trick is, sailing on D2 you can actually WAIT long enogh to intercept a convoy and fight on your terms.


Keelbuster --> well, the problem was they were not very far and D2 on PD is easy to hit by DDs. Remember, this boat is quite huge. WHen on 80-120 meters, you can have at least some time for evasive maneuver, even though it can be not enough.

[rls669]

I love my IXD2. Especially in mid 1943 when there's usually 3-4 homing torps available. I get in position in front of the convoy, about even with the outermost rank of ships. If either the lead escort or the near side escort isn't weaving he gets a TIII to start the festivities. Otherwise I'll creep in after the lead escort passes and then engage the convoy from within. I can usually get 3-4 merchants at close range, then exit the back of the convoy. Any escort except the trailer will be delayed since they always head straight through the convoy; the nearest trailing escort gets a homing torp and I dive deep and creep away.

Repeat a few times, getting an escort or 2 each time and then you've got an unescorted convoy to hammer. And in the D2 you've still got some ammo left.

Of course, that's with stock 1.4 + IC. Probably be suicidal with one of the realism mods.

[Ducimus]

Ill attack a convoy in an IXD2 in any weather..

I just wont penetrate the convoy and get in between ship columns with it like i would an IXB or C. Ill attack a convoy from the side with an IXD2, but its length i dont like in between two clolumns of ships.

[Keelbuster]

Consider yerself lucky - you IX boys hunt single merchants for a living. Convoy bandits (aka VII) are much more likely to get DCed to death.

Kb

HAH, you think i shy away from convoys? Oh contrare. I get right in them, bring both bow and stern tubes to bear on two columns at once. Even then, escorts are stupid. (only boat i woudlnt try this with is an IXD2)

8 or 9 times out of 10 i slip away without much rukus.

For the record i ahve a lost contact time of 45, and have increased the noise factor and wave factors so the AI can hear more on their passive sonar. Whats more, right now im so fed up, i have made all those single ships in 43 and 44 in the caribean and east coast into mini convoys, 2 or 3 merchants with two elite DE's. Im acutally testing this now, i hope they give me a good pummeling :D


Before i go on next patrol, im going to do a "find and replace" on the RND layer. and make EVERYTHING crew rating 4.

Its the only crew rating that behaves aggressivly and is worth a damn.

Cool cool. Sounds good. 9 in 10 sounds like my luck (i die about 15 patrols into a career). From the careers you were posting in yer sig., it seemed like you also got capped early.

;)

Kb

[Ducimus]

Cool cool. Sounds good. 9 in 10 sounds like my luck (i die about 15 patrols into a career). From the careers you were posting in yer sig., it seemed like you also got capped early.
"De planes! De planes!"
http://www.madcowprod.com/fi04.jpg

[Keelbuster]

:88)

[Heibges]

I am interested in seeing the results of your test.

I'm going to mess around with AI Hydrophone Sensitivity in the SH3/data/cfg/sim folder.

[Ducimus]

I am interested in seeing the results of your test.

I'm going to mess around with AI Hydrophone Sensitivity in the SH3/data/cfg/sim folder.

If you mean how turning those 8% chance to spawn ever 20-30 hour single ships into mini convoys with elite DE's, *shrug* im just seeing if they're spawning correctly and how they play out. I could zip up the modified RND layer when im done. Although this RND layer is from Unified Campaign, i dunno if theres any compatiblity issues or not.

As per AI hydrophone sensitivy, see this thread: (i reposted info about half way down)
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=498105

Although there are those who claim i was smoking crack when i ran the experiments to draw the conclusion i did.

[Heibges]

I definitely know wave size plays a large role in visual detection by dd's also.

At night, in medium fog, with a 15ms wind, while I was on the surface, I had a lone dd cross my stern on a perpendicular course at a range of 500m. It just kept right on going.

[/list]